554 John Fisher - Embracing Change One Step at a Time

Speaker A: Welcome to the Fast Leader podcast where we uncover the leadership life hacks that help you to experience breakout, performance faster

Speaker B: and rocket to success.

Speaker A: And now here's your host, customer and employee engagement expert and certified emotional intelligence practitioner Jim Rimbach.

Speaker B: Call Center Coach develops and unites the next generation of call center leaders. Through our elearning and community, individuals gain knowledge and skills in the six core competencies. That is the blueprint that develops high performing call center leaders. Successful supervisors do not just happen. So go to call center coach.com to learn more about enrollment and download your copy of the Supervisor Success Path ebook now. Okay, Fast Leader Legion. Uh, you know there's times in your life where you meet certain people and you have an instant connection and you just love to want to have a conversation and have you know, a greater understanding of who they are as a human being. And we have one of those on the show today, it's John Fisher. Uh, so, but before we get into our discussion, talking about a book that he has uh, written which uh, when you start you know, thinking about it we often don't see this but it's putting the eye into change. Um, the basically this is what we live today, right? And if we're not doing that we're going to struggle and if we're not leaders that are helping you know, to move um, and create an environment um, for people can feel like they, they want to move and that's the key, create the environment, um, we're gonna have a problem. So John Fisher was actually born in a small market town called Skipton on the edge of the Yorkshire Dales. An area of natural beauty in the middle of the Panin. Is it Penin?

Speaker A: Penine.

Speaker B: Panin. Range of hills in the north of England. If you've seen the Harry Potter's last films, uh, you'll, you will have seen some of it as it's where he hid out for a while into a uh, working blue collar family. Leaving school at the age of 16, he fulfilled a long term ambition and joined the the raf, the Royal Air Force on a craft apprenticeship working on aircraft radar, laser laser and radio systems and later as an installation tech test and commissioning engineer for aircraft simulators. He was a poster boy for imposter syndrome. Uh, it was people that really interested him and he never really felt comfortable as an engineer. His 30s saw a dramatic change as he completed an open university BA degree in psychology. While holding down a full time job, he joined the British Psychology Society and started the journey from engineer via project management for a uh, multinational, multinational Manufacturing company to becoming a business psychologist and coach. Looking back, his coaching signs were there. During his apprenticeship he had learned to play squash squash and started helping friends learn the game. And so he had opponents to play against. Within a few months they were all so much better than. But it took him a few years to recognize and heed the message that coaching is his calling. The Open University not only gave him a first class honors degree, but also introduced him to an important influence in his personal and professional life. The psychological theory of personal constructs proposed by George Kelly. When he first heard this, it was a road to this mascus types of revelation where Kelly suddenly, suddenly explained his life and philosophy. This interest in what makes people tick led him to undertake training in counseling, coaching, hypnotherapy, facilitation, and gaining an MSc. So that's a master's in science in occupational psychology. Developing a personal change journey curve. Based on his experiences, John feels fortunate to work in a few different sectors and industries for diverse organizations, designing and developing personal and leadership training courses. He has been a regular and invited speaker at conferences and always amazed that his change curve has a life of his own without him. Don and his wife Marguerite currently reside in Preston UK where they love studying ancient civilizations in the Lakes region. John Fisher, are you ready to help us get over the hump?

Speaker A: Um, uh, yeah, definitely. Uh, not sure I can live up to that, uh, thumbnail sketch Jim, but let's go for it.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Okay, so I went through and we, and we constructed, uh, several different questions. Um, and, and of course our conversation I'm sure is going to go into much, uh, greater insights. So, so to start, when you start talking about constant change, it's inherent in a lot of organizations, especially in call centers and contact centers, yet managers still face resistance. So how does personal construct theory equip frontline leaders for driving needed changes despite tenured staff objections?

Speaker A: Yeah, good question, Jim. Thank you for starting with an easy one. Um, as you say, I come from Kelly's philosophy of personal construct. So for me it's changing. Organizations don't change, individuals do. So it's changing one person at a time effectively, and it's identifying uh, with them, um, the what's in it for me concept for the people. So you've got to tap into them and understand why they need to change, what they have to do to change. So it's that personal change. Why should I change when you want me to? What's in it for me? What do I have to Do Why?

Speaker B: You know, and when you say that, I start thinking about the typical process. When you look at policies and procedures and things like that, when we start talking about, you know, change resistance is. We unfortunately put very, um, structured engineering like, you know, practices in place that, you know, basically take people down a particular path where termination is just imminent. Uh, so like for example, when we start talking about corrected. The corrective action process.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And the personal development plan process, when it gets to people not changing, 98 of the time, it ends up in termination. So for me it's like, why even bother?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Um, and it is that, um, and part of it is because we try to, um, effectively sheep dip. So we try to do the same change to everybody rather than making it personal and hence the putting the eye into change. Um, because we've got to make that personal for them. But what I think we need to do as well is effectively we need to help them change their actions, change their behaviors, but not change their identity. And a lot of that resistance to change for me comes from a fear, uh, of their identity being impacted and the, uh, implications of that for who they are and their core sense of being. So I think that's one of the main reasons people resist change.

Speaker B: You know, even when you say that, the words start coming to my head. When you start referring to an identity, it's like self, esteem, self, you know, all of those types of things. And uh, Susan Fowler has done a great depth of work into the science of human motivation. And you know, we say with them and all that, but, but it's very, very complex, uh, when you start talking about those driving factors. And a lot of things have influenced, you know, our resistance to change, which includes when we were little kids, you know, don't do this, do that. I need you to follow this and follow that, and if you don't, I'm going to whip you.

Speaker A: Yep, totally.

Speaker B: It's all of those things. And uh, then also what we see on social media, which heavily influences where people don't build the skill and then they just lash out and they, uh, they unleash the anger.

Speaker A: Yeah, very much so. And I think it does come from that, uh, Kelly talks about. We approach events based on our past experience and acting as if that's true. So, um, and we're constantly going through changes you alluded to. So no matter how experienced you are, your interviewee is, this is the first time the two of you have interviewed for the first time. So that's going to be a very different experience for both of you that we both come into expecting something from that will either be proven or disproven at the end of it, um, and that then influences the next interview. So, um, there's a saying, an old poster I love. Everybody brings joy to this office. Some when they walk in, others when they walk out.

Speaker B: That is so true.

Speaker A: Yeah, very much so.

Speaker B: And I think all of what we're talking about here though has made the ability to be a leader, um, significantly more complex than as before. And, and unfortunately, you know, when you start looking at skill development, and this is what I say all the time, I said when you look at lawyers, they practice law. When you look at doctors, they practice medicine. Unfortunately, when we look at leaders, we don't talk about practicing leadership, but that's really what it is.

Speaker A: Yeah. And hence the one person at a time, uh, because everybody is unique and needs to be treated in different ways. And some of the, um, classic leaders have that personal touch. So they make each person feel as if they're the one that they're talking to rather than the policy and process. Um, this is what we're doing. Go away and do it. Well, hang on. I'm left handed, so I can't play my guitar that way. The classic Paul McCartney. His guitar teacher couldn't play Tell Paul McCartney what to do because his guitar teacher was right handed. McCartney is left handed. So it just won't work. So we've got to find the way in to people. And the work that Susan Powell is doing, that Dan Pink's doing, um, nowadays about the intrinsic extrinsic motivation and everything, they're all at the heart of how we change people, what motivates them, what's. I think Cotter used the frame burning platform. What's the burning platform that makes person want to change? And then how do you keep their sense of identity safe and protected? Because if they feel too scared, they just won't change.

Speaker B: Yeah, we, we freeze, right?

Speaker A: Very much so. And I think, I think there is that massive link into that in that we freeze or we get out and then we lose good people because we don't take care of them and make sure that change personalized. And we sometimes don't recognize that we're going through multiple changes all of the time. The whole world changes regularly and we're going through all of these changes all the time. And people are uh, maybe in five or six different phases of different changes every moment of the day, just in silly little things some of them and in really big massive things in other ones. And it's then what does that say about who they are? What does that say about the judgments that they've made, um, and how does that influence how they'll act in the future and how much committed they are?

Speaker B: Okay, so when I start looking at, you know, the process by which we would go through the change, you actually talk about the ABC change conversation technique. Uh, it actually seems really simple, yet profound. Uh, so can you walk us through a smart application of the ABC analysis to address an emerging call center type of challenge like outsourcing, anger, uh, or upskilling needs?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, yes. Uh, really, the ABC technique, then you start off with, um, outsourcing or keeping in house will be your two headings that I've used, um, in exercises with teams and with individuals. So you choose the two headings, and that's the A level of that. What you then look at is what are the negatives of staying in house? So things like that might be expense, might be cost of renting, the rebuildings, the cost of trainings, and what are the advantages of outsourcing? So somebody else else is responsible for peaks and troughs of the, um, the number of people you need. You probably got 24, seven, um, access to them. It's cheaper. Ah, and all these. So you look at the pros and cons of changing. What's the argument for changing at the B level? Um, and then a guy called Finn Shudder came across it, a Norwegian, and Fin then added, what for me makes it so profound? And he says, well, hang on a min. Any change involves loss. Uh, and that's where my curve came from. So, uh, at the C level, it's one of the advantages of where we are now. So I go with my friends. I've got some really good friends in the call center. It's a good, steady job. I get out, I enjoy the people I work with, I enjoy talking to people. What are the negatives, though, of outsourcing and why should we be careful? Potentially, it's going to a different country. In the uk we outsource a lot of work to other countries. So you've immediately got a language and, uh, an understanding problem. Uh, and even where we speak the same language, uh, Winston Churchill came out with the classic phrase, uh, Britain and the US two nations divided by a common language. So we've got that interpretation. We've got job losses as a negative potentially. And people will then fear their job loss. Uh, and if that line their level of the sea level, I'm going to lose more than I'm going To gain. People won't change because they're afraid of that change. I'm 50, I'm 60. How will I find another job now? It's all I've done. So it's about helping people recognize and identifying what you can do to help that change. So the call centre, um, the training might be a threat to some people. And I've had people on training courses with me who are in the 40s and 50s who've never been in a classroom since they left school, uh, at the end of school and never carried on um, your ged. Some people get ged, some people don't. And if they're suddenly put in a classroom to be taught can be very threatening and frightening for them. So they go into fight or flight. So it's that sort of way. How do we then make it real?

Speaker B: Well, even when you're talking about that, I started thinking about it for, even from an overall strategic perspective. So I could take that up to the next level, mid level, I could take that up to this, you know, uh, up to the highest levels of the organization when I very much so.

Speaker A: Um, one of the things I found when I was doing the, the original consultancy and launching a value, a customer focused um, awareness in a multinational manufacturing engineering organization was every level blame the level above them. So the middle managers blamed the senior manager, they blamed the directors, the directors blamed the chief exec, the chief exec blamed the board. And it was that because they all were in fear of what they were doing. Um, another company I worked in, they suddenly went open plan and all of the directors came and sat out on the floor with the rest of the office staff and was fascinating. I was their leadership, uh, development person. So I had connections throughout the organization and talking to all of the sort of staff level. They were all scared because they assumed the directors were watching over them, looking at everything they did and were keeping an eye on them. Middle management were then worried both ways. And when I talked to the directors they were all scared because they thought all of the staff were watching them, keeping an eye on them, making sure they did what they were supposed to do. And it was fascinating that each of them at uh, opposite ends had exactly the same fears.

Speaker B: Mina, as you're talking I start thinking about all this underlying bias that exists that we're just totally in the dark on.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's, that's why I love it. It's, it's what just brings this smile to my face. Just how we act and behave and everybody's different. Some people really Grabbed it and became even more inclusive. And the servant leader concept uh, as well came up. Other people came very closed and some even left the company because they didn't want to leave their office. Um, and the right expression, just because me doors open doesn't mean you can come in.

Speaker B: Well, I mean just the, the, the denial by a lot of people talking about that change element. Right. It's like, okay, you know, if we don't do the pre work. Yeah, pre work to say, okay, this is what might happen, this is what you might be thinking. Uh, so it's already in your subconscious level. So let's bring it to the conscious level so that we can address it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, I think that there's a sort of comment time spent on reconnaissance is never wasted. Even if you don't use it, it's still useful. And some of the more successful changes I've seen and um, been involved in, they've got the pre work, right. And um, from project management we've got all of the sayings, plan the work, work the plan. Um, and the uh, five P's of uh, project management. Proper planning prevents poor performance. So you've got all of that. So you've got to get it right at the start. Now for me, part of that right at the start is also making sure you close the past down. You give closure to the team. You recognize what worked really well in the past, you recognize their successes, but you then close it off and say the world has changed, we've moved on. And it's part of a past, present and future type of process that uh, I came up with. That certainly helped me over the years in doing that pre work first. And it's the 8020 rule. The more time you spend on pre work, the less time you'll need to spend on resistance.

Speaker B: Yeah, well that's kind of before we even started um, recording and having our conversation. I started talking about the differences in uh, we can call them archetypes, you can call them stereotypes, you can call them all kinds of different things depending on what your, your level of, of study is in that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That you know, you know, the American Persona is all about let's get the business right, let's get it done. Um, and that's kind of the way that we have been perceived by the rest of the world. Uh, where in reality, uh, and if we really are that more self aware piece and understand, you know, a little bit more about the subconscious to make it more cognitive and aware is that if we don't have trust and if we don't build a relationship and rapport. You're not going to get to it.

Speaker A: No, never. Um, and it goes back to that. No matter how much you as a manager or leader say trust me, if you've behaved in ways to spoil that trust, they will never trust you. Uh, Stephen Covey Jr. Came up with a brilliant statement, um, uh, which is around that, uh, if I behaved in an untrustworthy way, you'll never believe me when I say trust me. It just doesn't work.

Speaker B: Well, I think that phrase itself, ah, you know, automatically just kind of opens up the door.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, because, because you say, you know, trust me, it's like, well, wait a minute.

Speaker A: Sure. Yeah. Why, why should I not? Yeah, yeah. And okay, going back to your archetypes, of course, the four different colors from the archetypes all responding different ways and even different ways within the colors because you've got the borders, you've got the extremes and everything. So it's understanding how the customer will respond and then being able to communicate. And a communication is not what I say, it's what you hear. And how many times have we said something that we've heard back that's not been what we've meant or not been what we've said? Because they interpret it through their filters, not my filters.

Speaker B: That's true. And, and here's oftentimes we don't connect the dots. So what we're talking about here is, here is really the, the, the constructs, uh, and the basis for what we have relabeled or labeled as, you know, dei, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion. You know, but, and here's the thing that's also interesting when you start thinking about DEI and getting to all of this is that, you know, a lot of times some people think that, well, hey, I am unique, I'm a, ah, whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever. Um, and then therefore, I already am diverse. M. That has nothing to do with it. Um, yeah, it really doesn't. So, uh, you know, I jokingly will say is that, let's just make it kind of a little bit sanitized. I could have four white guys, 45 years old, and they all could be extremely diverse.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, you know, could be dealing with, you know, young kids and elderly parents and is single.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Another one could be, um, gay and then and either be in a relationship, you know, and be part of, you know, the deep part of his community. Another one may be just, you know, the total stereotypical dad. I mean. Yeah. Such diversity and all that background and was an orphan and they really didn't parental figures, you know, move from, um, it's. It's like we've got to get down and get past the color, the all of those types of things. If we really want to be DEI

Speaker A: centric, well, we all need to be colorblind.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: People colorblind. I totally agree. Because even the four people you talked about, they could be brothers, 40 to 45 and just have that difference and have fundamentally different experiences as children that then reflect all the work that was done in the 50s, 60s, 70s about first child, second child, last child, and the influence and impact that has with potentially second child being overachievers because they had to compete, etc. That all influences, which is why we need to put the I interchange, of course, and um, work on each person. Um, I think it's how do we change organizations one person at a time, hit the tipping points and that then changes it for them. M. So yeah, I. When I've done that type of profiling and um, work based on Young's archetypes, I've usually badged it as, uh, an understanding and um, valuing edi because that's what it is. Very good.

Speaker B: Okay. So industry reports forecast that call volumes, overall activity within the contact center environment has dropped and there's been a shrinkage that has occurred overall, but complexity has, is rising, uh, and AI integration is just taking off, uh, in a multitude of different ways. So what unconventional lessons, uh, from your book, uh, and individual change capacities, challenge assumptions. Assumptions in planning, call center staff reskilling.

Speaker A: Oh, really good question. Um, I think the biggest assumption is the script. I think that that's the biggest challenge too effective. And you can see that when you get the AI bots responding, when you log on to websites and they ask questions and you sort of. I, Because I told himself all the time, I say you've not understood. I've already said that. Why didn't you. How can I reword it? It's so simple. And um, because they're looking for a very specific filter that works occasionally and doesn't work occasionally. And there's no sort of fallback apart from to bring a real person in, which some of the better ones do. So I think that script, yes, it works as a sort intro to set the context, set the scene. And I, um, think for me one of the most important things that you do so well is set that context at the beginning and set that theme at the beginning that everything else can flow from. So we need to. I won't say ditch the script. But when I've talked about measurements in organizations and performance management, I've said measure what's important, don't make the measure important. And we've got to do with the same with the scripts. So it's about giving the people flexibility to be able to engage with the people in a way that works for whoever it is. It's about giving them that permission to go off script. Um, in the UK we regularly use the skiing term of going off piste to then be able to go where it's a bit scarier, which is a downside of course. So we've got to get people comfortable with being uncomfortable to allow them to deviate from the script and feel comfortable with that. Uh, so we've got to re, educate the bosses, the middle management especially to allow people to take a chance, to allow people to go where the customer needs them to go, but also to be able to say no, uh, as well to the customer because sometimes what they want is unreasonable, uh, impractical or uh, just plain impossible.

Speaker B: Well, and I think it's important to note there's a lot of research that's been done in regards to resolution and problem resolution. And what they find most often is, is that the customers, it's, it's very, very, very rare for people to be out on the extreme and basically once you give them the entire company, I mean that is rare. Um, but they've often, often find where they have removed when they, when uh, they give people the proper upskilling, uh, and they remove a lot of the parameters around solving of the problem. Yeah, don't make it, you know, first you do this, first you do this. First script as you're talking about, um, is they actually find that for most companies it actually saves them revenue totally. And customers.

Speaker A: Yeah, very much so. And again, because that's making it personal. And I think part of the driver there is engaging the workforce. So engag the call centre staff in designing and defining what they can do, how they can do it and give that ownership. And I'm a big believer, uh, in ownership going down to the least appropriate level that you can do. And when I've managed virtual and real teams in past lives, the team meetings were theirs. I had one, uh, team that were a couple of hundred miles away from me. They owned the meeting. They called me into the meeting, uh, and I just turned up. They shared it, they took the minutes, they did all of that and to split the chairing round, they owned it all. And I think that engagement is Fundamental to buy in.

Speaker B: Well, it is these days. Uh, I mean it's continuing to grow. And talking about that whole DEI thing, I mean I know of a situation where a particular leader at a higher level, you know, is more directive in their, in their leadership style and a person below them is more collaborative in their style. You were just explaining, um, and so they are actually dinging the person below them to say that's not how you're supposed to lead. And I'm like, oh, if you're sitting there and saying that, uh, you know, from a DEI perspective, we want to have a diverse set of people within our organization that are leading our people. And guess what, your people are performing, the job is getting done and you're more collaborative, then we need to support that and enable that. And in fact like I said, said, if you look at all of the research, that's where everything is going in regards to leading and having performance teams. It's building the collaboration.

Speaker A: Yeah, very much so. And um, um, I think that collaboration is fundamental. Uh, I talk uh, a little bit about the difference between compromise and collaboration where compromise effectively both lose. And I use a um, at right, two oranges. I've got two oranges. Two people want the oranges so the lose loses. I keep them m. And they don't get any. The lose lose for one of them is one gets two, the other one gets none. The compromise is one each. The collaboration is. I say to both of them, what do you want the oranges for? And in the story one wants to make orange juice and the other one wants to make marmalade. So the one gets the two first, uh, squeezes all the juice out and then gives their waste to the other one to make marmalade because that's their core ah, content. So yeah, it's, it's all part of the same for me.

Speaker B: We just, you know, take the time and dig deeper.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Okay. With call center management notoriously, uh, put under, you know, high pressure, KPIs churn and complexity. What surprising mindset tips, uh, will help them to distinguish truly people centric change leaders in this space from the average or the status quo.

Speaker A: Oh, I think, I think part of it comes down to observation and getting under the skin of the people and getting under the skin of the calls, um, and understanding the call complexity. And one of the things that I've seen in some call centres is certain people get the more difficult ones passed to them that take longer and don't quite have an easy answer and they can then be unfairly Penalized because they're getting a resolution, but they're not hitting the numbers in inverted commas. And this goes back to measure what's important. Uh, and part of it's around. I've heard people in call centres when I used to sit next to one or two, um, if they've had a really good phone call, result the customer's complaint, they've then asked for a score on a 1 to 10 or 1 to 5, whatever it is, where it's been a difficult conversation. They've not asked for a score and got that feedback and hear it all around. And it's about understanding. It's also about understanding where's their area of expert and where's their area of interest. So some people are, uh, better at doing certain tasks. Some people are better at, um, saying some things, dealing with different types of people. And it's a little bit about almost understanding that people. I'll use the awful word weakness. I don't like using it. I tend to use less efficient or less effective. But people are in that category because it's something they don't enjoy, they're not very good at. Uh, they can do it, but not to the same level who's a different archetype and gets more enjoyment out of that. So spreadsheets. Some people love spreadsheets. My business is on a spreadsheet, um, and that's as far as it goes. I've got quite a complex spreadsheet, but don't ask me to love spreadsheets, don't ask me to do them. I'd rather buy that in. And that, ah, then becomes who's better to do it? Where's my time best sold? And my time's better on the interpersonal or the design of an intervention than it is on creating a spreadsheet that collates all of the feedback that I get and gives me markings out of whatever rating I use, which are only valid for the second you tick the box. Because by the time you go in your car and somebody's cut you up on the freeway home, um, it's changed. And by the time reality set in, and I think this is maybe one of the other things about the call center training. Specifically, when they go home on a high reality, the next day fits in and they think, how do I integrate that new script for the want of a better word into my process? Where does it fit? I forgot to do it today, I'll do it better next. I forgot again. And that's where they start criticizing themselves. And performance drops off because they're more focused on getting it right than getting the interaction effective.

Speaker B: I mean, there's so m. There's so much to unpack in what you were just saying there. I mean, uh, you know, sorry.

Speaker A: There was a lot there as well, Jim.

Speaker B: Uh, the whole contextual piece associated even with, you know, leadership development skills in a contact center. I mean, I, I hear people all the time saying, well, we have a, you know, a leadership development and a leadership skill development program. And I'm like, okay, yeah. Where, uh, you know, where did it come from? You know, what's the basis? I said, how are people able to connect those dots that you're talking about for relevancy? Yeah, um, because it's. It's ultimately. Because ultimately we have to practice leadership. We're talking about behavior change. We're talking about, you know, all the things that have been part of this discussion. Uh, and it. It's not simple. You know, there. It's. We can give people all the information in one world. Uh, and there's something called a knowing and a doing gap. We all have it.

Speaker A: We all do.

Speaker B: It's massive. Um, yeah, I know I'm supposed to do that, but because of all of these other factors, I don't do that. Um, and so we, we have to be m, you know, very, very aware of that about change. I want to hit on this one point because you hit on something that I think oftentimes a flaw, uh, when we start looking at measuring effectiveness. So we talk about that 80, 20 rule, that Pareto principle at a high level. If we look at problems that exist, you know, for an organization, if we really are doing a proper analysis, this is what we'll find. It's really an 80, 10, 10 rule that happens. 80% of the problems that exist from a support organization, um, are actually generated because of the company failing at some point or having an opportunity they're not capitalizing on.

Speaker A: Right? Yeah.

Speaker B: So it's 80% was company created and generated. Could be. Supply.

Speaker A: Could be.

Speaker B: I mean, it just goes on and on. 10%, you know, when you start talking about, you know, resolution and satisfaction, the actual agent has control over. 80% is company. 10% is agent. The other 10% is the customer. You know what user error. You didn't use it. Right. Um, you didn't interpret it correctly. You know, you were trying to solve a particular problem and you bought something. That's just no possible way that's going to do that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So you. Actual customer error. So it's 80, 10, 10. But when we look at how we measure performance. It doesn't reflect that in any way.

Speaker A: No, no it doesn't at all. And um, I think that's part of that fundamental problem that I sort of for simplicity for m Me, uh, integrate into the that measure what's important. Don't make the measure important. And that's where we make the measure important. And we don't recognize some of those changes, um, and we don't recognize some of that bigger context, uh, which for me is fundamental. And um, we assume the context is the same. One of the classics that the research started proving a good few years ago now was uh, the, that people leave. And the general excuse usually given for people going to a new supplier is I got it cheaper. And what was totally ignored there and organizations put their head in the sand was why were they looking for a new supplier to find it cheaper. And the totally ignored that wider context. I'm dissatisfied. Or Xerox, uh, proved it back in was it the 80s when they found that unless people were totally satisfied giving you a 9 or a 10, they were open to other people coming in where organizations thought if they were happy that stay and um, what's the reason they're looking. That's what needs to be addressed. Not it's cheaper. Because cheaper isn't the answer as we all know.

Speaker B: Um, well, the same thing applies for employees. It's like m. They leave the organization. Well, they left for a better opportunity. Why are they even open?

Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. If you're happy and content, you stay. Um, I was just talking with a friend the other day and we were talking about sports agents and going back historically we had a lot of one club players. But now we've got a lot of sports agents. They don't get paid unless you move. So we're seeing less commitment, commitment to teams and people. Sports agents chasing money. So you lose then that team team cohesiveness, you lose the team commitment to the team because the agents committed to the money and they then move their players on. And it's that whole change of environment that then has a knock on impact at every level of, of the game.

Speaker B: Sure. Uh, look at the macro. Right.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So we discussed people led change. Uh quite, quite a bit today. But if you had carte blanche to reshape a traditional call center from top down command and control leadership culture, what might be one delightfully counter influentive uh change you would actually spearhead

Speaker A: upward mentoring. So get people at the new end of the organization. Get the people who are on the sharp end of the phones. Get them mentoring the directors, get them to help the directors see the implications and impacts of their decisions as it goes down the organization. I'd, uh, probably also throw in stopping call. We do this in the uk so I don't know quite if it's the same in the US or in other countries. We call the people who sit in and listen to the coaching, uh, listen to the calls. We call them coaching. They're not coaches. Their feedback critiquers, not coaches. And we do a massive disservice to coaching because people expect to be criticized when they come to see a coach and they believe that listening to what you say and then telling you where it's wrong is coaching and it isn't. So call them something closer to what they are. Ah, um, criticizers. Let's give them a, a negative connotation name.

Speaker B: Well, even when you start hitting on that, there's a whole lot of psychological work that's been associated with how well do people perform when they actually know they're under observation.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That in that open plan it's like, oh my gosh.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, quantum physics, uh, I m don't even understand what language. And I'm waiting for the English translation. But they're proving that the mere act of observing something changes what you say. And um, the ethnographers from the late 19th, early 20th century all found the same things by mere fact of watching the Hawthorne Effect, as it was known from the 1920s in Hawthorne, Illinois. They changed the outcome by just standing and watching. Yeah. Massive impact.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Okay, so looking at the next five years, what single big prediction would you make about the evolution of call center leadership or just leadership styles, given pressing technology and workforce changes that are just going to continue?

Speaker A: I, uh, think, I think there's going to have to be a wider appreciation of the whole EDI concept because we're getting people now who are so much more aware of everything that's out there, uh, so much more comfortable in doing what they want to do. And the whole social influencer, uh, phenomena that's coming up I think will have to be taken into account because people no longer want to be told what to do and no longer feel constricted into doing what they're told. We're no longer in that command and control mindset. There's still a place for it and it still is necessary, but we're moving more and more into an engagement world where we've got to motivate. And going back 10 or 15 years, companies in London couldn't Attract employees. So they were giving them perks like signing them up for dating agencies to give them a social life and giving them non work related sweeteners to come and join them. Paying for gym memberships and things like that for them just to make themselves more attractive. So we've got to make sure we tailor the offering to the individual and we've got to pay more. Account of their own autonomy and the fact that that they won't put up with what me as a baby boomer put up with. Um, and they will change quicker than I did. It took me to my 30s to get out of the imposter syndrome. They'll be doing it in their teens.

Speaker B: John, fascinating insights, but you know, right now it's time for the hump day.

Speaker A: Hold on.

Speaker B: Okay, John, the hump day hoedown is the part of our show we're to going. You give us good insights fast. So I'm going to ask you several questions and your job is to give us a robust yet rapid responses that are going to help us move onward and upward faster. John Fisher, are you ready to hoe down?

Speaker A: I am ready to rock and roll all.

Speaker B: Ah, right. So what is holding you back from being an even better leader today?

Speaker A: Me? My own limiting beliefs.

Speaker B: Okay, what is the best leadership advice you have ever received? Lead.

Speaker A: It's easier to ask for permission than forgiveness. Forgiveness than permission. Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Speaker B: What do you feel is one of your best tools that helps you lead in business or life?

Speaker A: Humor.

Speaker B: And what would be one book you'd recommend to our Legion, and it could be from any genre.

Speaker A: Oh, um, one of the biggest influences on me was Vance Packards the hidden persuaders. Probably 60 years old now. Brilliant.

Speaker B: Okay, the Fast Leader Legion. You can find links to that and other bonus information from today's show, uh, by going to fastleader.net or call center coach, uh, and putting in John Fisher in your search window. Okay, John, this is my last hope.

Speaker A: They.

Speaker B: Hold on. Question. Imagine you were given the opportunity to go back to the age of 25. Hold on one second. Okay, John, this is my last hump day. Hold on. Hmm. Okay, John, this is my last hump day hodung Question. Imagine you were given an opportunity to go back to the age of 25 and you can take the knowledge and skills that you have now back with you. But you can't take it all. You can only take one. So what skill or piece of knowledge would you take back with you? And why?

Speaker A: It's all about people. Um, because I'd have moved out of engineering quicker and taken those steps m more confidently.

Speaker B: John, I've had a fun time, uh, chatting with you today. Uh, could you please share with the Fast Leader Legion how they can get in touch with you?

Speaker A: Certainly the easiest way is look on www.c2d. That's, uh, Charlie, the number two delta.co.uk and, um, you can contact me through that.

Speaker B: John Fisher thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom and helping us all get over the home. Thank you for joining me on the Fast Leader show today. For recaps, links from every show, special offers, and access to download and subscribe if you haven't already, head on over to fastleader.net so we can help you move onward and upward faster.