Season 9, Episode 7: ESG and Customer Experience: Why It Matters More Than Ever

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Experience Perspective. This is an IPSOS podcast which is for anyone interested in improving experiences for your customers and colleagues across all sectors. Across this series, we will bring you insights and inspiration from around the world whilst we have a chat with experts within the field. Now let's get started.

Speaker B: Hello everybody and welcome to the Experience Perspective. Today I'm with two guests from ipsos, Sue Phillips, who is our, uh, global lead for esg, and James Bland, who has recently joined IPSOS through the acquisition of the BVA family. And he is the commercial director of our, uh, travel, hospitality and leisure team in the CX team in the uk. Hello to you both.

Speaker C: Hello.

Speaker B: So today we're going to be talking about esg, environment, social and governance and its role in customer experience and how businesses can improve the experience experiences that they design and deliver to customers and help drive that return on CX investment. But first of all, um, sue, we've known each other, I calculated, for almost 20 years, which I can't believe. But for our listeners, could you give a quick intro to yourself and what you do at ipsos?

Speaker C: Yes, certainly, yes. I've been in the market research business now for over 40 years, which feels like a very long one. And, uh, my current role is head of esg, which is a, ah, threefold role. Uh, the first thing is to ensure that our offer to our clients, which is helping them understand their consumers, markets and societies in order to make better decisions, to make sure it helps them with their sustainability decisions. So we help them with our research, obviously. Uh, the second is to inform people. We have a lot of our own data, um, from our own points of view, perspectives, and also our own annual surveys on people and climate change, um, International Women's Day, etcetera, to inform the public on that. And the third area is obviously our own ESG journey where IPSOS is making efforts to reduce our carbon emissions to make sure our gender equality is at the level it should be. So a number of internal ESG initiatives as well.

Speaker B: And James, welcome again to Ipsos and to all our, uh, BVO family who are listening, we're really excited to have you all on board. Would you like to give a quick intro as well?

Speaker D: Certainly, yes. So if you two are closer to 20 years knowing each other, I think we're probably just over 20 weeks given when the acquisition, um, took place last, last year. I've actually been with, uh, the BVA family for 15 years. I, uh, started with BDRC in 2011. We were acquired by BVA in 2018 and we've now joined Ipsos, obviously. I first joined to look after one of our CX programs, Venue Verdict, which looks at the meeting experience in hotels. So there's two modules, there's a mystery shop module, there's a post event feedback, but it's very much looking at customer experience for meetings and events. I started then getting involved in some of our brand research, then all the hotel sector research, then joining the board and then cfo and then I'm now in IPSOS as a commercial director looking at the travel, hospitality and leisure segment.

Speaker B: So for our listeners, I'd like you to do some active listening for me whilst we speak today and have our conversation around ESG as a brand, um, and for the brand that you, you work for. What does ESG mean to you and how are you delivering this? How are you showing up across the experiences that you deliver in terms of helping people, society and the planet? And what can you better? So let's have a think whilst we listen and it'd be great to see some of your comments and do reach out to myself and sue and James on LinkedIn afterwards. So, sue, let's just start off zooming right out, um, and looking at the macro context. ESG is such a big term and it can feel overwhelmingly so. So just zooming out. It's still early on February right now, when we're recording in 2026. So let's just start reflecting back on the last year in 2025 and what were some of the context, some of the highlights and lowlights of the year.

Speaker C: Yes, so I think, uh, 2025 was a very particular year. It was the year in which ESG became a political lightning rod, really. Um, and that was driven by sort of many decisions by, um, different companies, organizations to change their status or change their position on ESG matters. So whether it was the US withdrawing from the Paris Agree, uh, Net zero banking alliance collapsing, um, so there some big decisions that happened that made everyone think, oh my goodness, you know, the world is turning against. However, the reality was that many companies, I think 87% of companies actually increased their investment in their ESG initiatives. So things were still continuing. Big companies, Unilever, Nestle, Mars, etc. They actually publicly urged EU policymakers to continue with the CSRD, um, regulation, believing that in order to make the progress they need to make, they need to be on a level playing field and therefore the industry needs to be regulated. So a lot of things continued. So really, 2025 was the year where there was a real divergence between what people saying publicly and actually private action. Um, and, uh, so the real shift was in communication strategy, not commitment levels.

Speaker B: And from our research, the end of year review that was published, 78% agreed that we are heading for an environment disaster without rapid change to our habits. And what's driving that? What do you think is driving such high number?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, people are, and remain continued, continue, uh, to remain concerned about climate change because they see it, they feel it, they hear about it, they hear. And, um, they see floods, they see fires. Even if it's not in places near to them, they will always make the news. They see their environment flooding. And they feel every year the summers are getting hotter. And uh, so this all makes them realize that it is still, um, a concern that we should be worried about. But actually the concern might be there. But actually their ability to action it themselves is often more difficult.

Speaker B: But to counter that gap around awareness and action, um, it's widening, isn't it? And we are seeing individual responsibility to act falling globally, a decline in people agreeing to this statement. If individuals like me do not act on climate change, we are failing future generations. So we're seeing people not agreeing to that as much.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. And I think when you think about the environment which you've been living over the last couple of years, you won't blame people for not having climate change at the top of their agenda in terms of their, their concerns, because most people will naturally be concerned about what's going on around them and their family. So inflation, cost of living, uh, personal finance, crime and violence, those kind of things are all more on people's minds. Uh, and so therefore they feel a sense of lack of agency, perhaps, or maybe just exhaustion on their inability to actually do anything about it themselves. So you can understand that's not because they don't care, um, but they just cannot see how they can possibly do anything about it.

Speaker D: Sue, do you think people are exhausted as well? Because there was another stat in that research which it actually, for me, links with this idea that if you, uh, know, I disagree, that if people like me don't do more, I think people are now expecting companies and governments to step up to the plate a bit more. Was it 71%?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker D: Said that they feel they're doing all they can.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker D: So it's almost like as an individual, as a citizen, I've maxed out what I can do. It's now for others better placed to take it on.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And I think also perhaps being more aware that there are Bigger challenges that they have to face. And yes, I'm doing my recycling every day, every week. Um, but actually, you know, um, the bigger issues around, whether it's sort of, you know, reduction in, uh, reduction in emissions or how, how you change the cycle of poverty, um, these are problems, uh, that are too big, that governments need to take on, companies need to take on.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Um, and you're talking to clients. Well, both of you are talking to clients every single day. But just, uh, with you, sue, for the second, what are the conversations that you're having around ESG at the moment? What challenges are you hearing? What are you seeing?

Speaker C: Yeah, so we all know that most, most companies have, you know, growth and profit as a key agenda. They are continuing, as I mentioned, with their sustainability, um, initiatives, but it's actually linking those sustainability initiatives to the core value proposition for their consumers that they're wanting to do, but that is not necessarily happening. So they're continuing with business as normal, trying to, you know, grow their business and get their consumers to buy their stuff. Um, but when it comes to sustainability, they're not always building that in to what the consumer is looking for. So that's, that's where we can start to talk with them about. Actually, yes, it might not be the number one reason why somebody buys you, but it can be a co benefit and something that will help build your brand and your brand's reputation. But because it's not top of mind, um, it requires some thought.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Um, and James, you know, we're thinking about this from a real macro context at the moment, so let's just zoom that lens in a little bit more into the world of cx. What does ESG mean? In the world that you and I

Speaker D: sit in, I'm going to actually go back to one of the words sue used, which is a CO benefit. We saw in a study that we did in the BVA family a couple of years ago that sustainability alone is not going to influence the majority of decisions. People are still looking when they choose a hotel, they're looking for good value, they're looking for great night's sleep, they're looking for comfortable bedrooms, friendly stuff, all of the basic hotel stuff. The next layer of decision factors, however, are around sustainability. And sue says co benefit. We say tiebreaker. If you are holding all those things equal, then it becomes a tiebreaker. The message from that, and I will get to see X, I promise it is going, it is going back to cx, but the message from that is that people won't accept deficiency elsewhere in exchange for sustainability when they're selecting a hotel. And the same is true of the experience when you're in a hotel, particularly with, um, average rates having increased so much in the last couple of years. People are spending a lot of money on their holidays, on their trips, they are holding onto their trips despite the cost of living crisis. They are not looking to compromise on their experience. It's not to say they won't behave sustainably, but they're not going to compromise on what they are getting, what they're doing and the time that they have, for the most part, just to be sustainable. And so it's about finding a way to take people with you on the journey without expecting them to change or to sacrifice.

Speaker B: We've got a paper as well that IPSOS did a few years ago now, but I still think it's just as relevant, uh, today, embedding ESG in into experience. And we looked at the forces of cx, which is the framework, as you both know, that we use to map, to measure, to design and deliver, um, experiences that really help drive that relationship with the customers, really meeting those emotional needs. And the key force out of the six, the six are, uh, control, fair treatment, certainty, status, enjoyment. And um, uh, the one that really links in with ESG is belonging, um, to. And that's all about doing good for individuals, for society and for the planet. And we could really see here that, you know, belonging does really help um, to improve the relationship customers have, um, with, with brands, work through customer experience. So just thinking about ROI and that challenging question, you know, we've got leaders on the call which want to know ROI all the time. What is the ROI in investing in ESG initiatives for customers, customer experience? What's your point of view there, James?

Speaker D: One of the things that we found in the study that we did is that there are people who are prepared to pay more for a sustainable experience. And we actually went at it a slightly different way. So there's lots and lots of research out there that just asks people directly, will you pay more for something that's sustainable? And lots of people put their hand up and say, oh yes, yes, yes, I will. However, that, that does turn out more often than not to be absolute nonsense because people don't behave in the same way that they claim. There's all sorts of biases in that. We approached it slightly differently. We simulated the buying journey as best we could in a questionnaire and we presented all sorts of different variables and we did it very subtly, intertwined with lots of other hotel Variables. And there are some contexts where consumers will pay up to 30% more for a sustainable hotel against a non sustainable identical alternative. It's primarily in the, the higher tiers, in the luxury tier, not so much in three star, but not exclusively. And what that for me says is that if you can embed these things into the experience, again without the sacrifice, then you can elevate and you can foster that sense of belonging. We had a fairly similar model actually in the bba. Family connection was the term we use. But it's that feeling part of a tribe and feeling that you're somewhere that shares your values. If you can build that in, you gain more advocacy, you get more repeat business, you get more recommendation.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And just thinking about tactically, what does that mean in customer experience? What can a hotel brand do in the customer experience to really bring ESG to the forefront of the experience experience? What, what sorts of things are they doing?

Speaker D: I mean there's initiatives that are as old as the hills. I mean that, that little note in your bathroom, please hang your towels up, um, if you want to, to use them again and save the planet. That's been there as long as I can remember. There's still an issue with that. Just last week I was in a hotel where I did hang my towels up and they were still replaced because their incentives are not aligned. So there is an incentive to act more sustainably. So they ask guests to hang the towels up, but the housekeepers are incentivized on how many rooms they can turn around quickly and the towels are packaged up for them. And it is quicker to just replace the whole set than it is to think about which ones need replacing to pick open the towels. The trolleys are loaded in a certain way. So one of the things that needs to happen is an alignment of the incentives and the objectives for frontline staff with the broader ESG goals of the organization. We see it sometimes as laddering down. So you start with the objective. What do we want to do? We want to be more sustainable.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker D: Okay, how are we going to be more sustainable? We're going to be more sustainable by reducing energy and water consumption by X percent, by consuming less detergent, by throwing away less plastic, by wasting less food. Okay, great, but keep going. What does that mean in terms of behaviors? M for guests, for staff? And what barriers are there that you need to remove either, you know, systematically or in terms of just physical barriers? Sometimes all of these things can prevent you getting to that top level objective. But unless you do the work drilling into the behavioral level, then you're not going to, uh, you're not going to get results.

Speaker C: I was just going to add just one thing to that, is the impact it can have on your. On your experience if actually it goes wrong. So you. You think you're doing the right thing by putting that towel up and then you come back and you go, well, I did everything I could. So you're actually. It has a negative impact on your experience. So, you know, it's really not, uh, not a great thing to put something there where you think you're going to get a positive impact by making an effort. And actually it has. Yeah.

Speaker D: What was the point? It annoyed me. Yeah. You know, and.

Speaker C: Yes, exactly. That's the last thing you want with the customer experience, isn't it?

Speaker B: Absolutely. To be annoyed. And, um, I think there's a term, cognitive dissonance that we talk about there, where somebody promises you something and to behave in a certain way. And then when they don't, it causes that trust, doesn't it? That trust to be eroded, which has that direct impact on those, as we call Roxy, behaviors that you talked about before. Retention, advocacy, sharer spent operational efficiency. Now, operational efficiency is an interesting one to think about from that cleaner's perspective, you know, putting the towels out and the impact that that has on the days. Because still, if the towels in the bath, you probably still want them to look a little bit fresh, don't you? A bit nice. Give them a shake and maybe fold them up and put them back on the side.

Speaker D: Well, I hung mine up. I mean, there's. There's hangers there. Hang your towel up if you're going to use it again. Leave it on the floor in the bath if you're not.

Speaker B: Absolutely, of course.

Speaker D: So I hung it up. M. And then when I came back, it had been taken off, taken away, and fresh ones were where they had been, as if I was new to the room. Now, there could be a number of things. It could have been that they were set up in that way and it's just quicker to, you know, take them out and put them in. It might have been that the housekeeper was not aware I was staying another night. I mean, they'd have seen my suitcase and everything. But if the rooming sheet or whatever they're working off doesn't say this guest is staying and they think it's just a changeover, then that could have, uh. That could have caused that as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And just going back, flicking back to the ESG paper, the embedding ESG into CX paper. Um, we looked at a lead telco provider and we were able to quantify the ROI and the impact of social responsibility on customer retention. So our analysis showed that perceptions of social responsibility among customers were impacted, uh, impacted the forces of belonging, fair treatment and certainty. And this had a significant impact on advocacy and retention. So we also saw the impact of that Seydoux gap, just as we've talked about as well if some, you know, if a brand's going to promise to do something they best deliver. Uh, and some of the examples from a telco perspective that came up in the research. So they were democratizing um, access to digital for all of their customer base or making it more accessible for everybody. They were investing in educational programs uh, around technology for all the different generations that they were serving in One that's very close to my heart, having two teenagers guidance on social media for young people, which we know is a hot topic at the moment, um, in the press. But this telco provider through doing these initiatives was actually driving um, their ESG agenda which was having a knock on impact on their Roxy, on their ROI and their ROXY behaviours that they're expecting. So just thinking about generations, we know we've just talked about social media and kids and thinking about that just in terms of generations and segments. Sue, just starting off with you first. What are we seeing here in terms of people's interest, accountability and responsibility when it comes to esg?

Speaker C: It won't surprise you to know that not all conscious consumers are equal. So we have uh, done our own segmentation where we've actually found five different segments with different approaches and at the polar ends are the activists. So those are the ones who really want to, to save the world. And they account currently for about a fifth of the world's. This is a global segmentation, a fifth of the world's population. And then at the other end there are the disengaged. So those people who really, you know, this is not my bag, I'm not interested in it. It's ah, something I um, wouldn't spend any time or money on and M that accounts for actually a quarter of the population. What is interesting is that those two figures have shifted over the last five years. Activists used to be a quarter and disengaged used to be a fifth. But we're seeing a shift towards this engaged. And that is back to what we were saying earlier on about the uh, overwhelm of all the other things that are happening. Um, the other thing we're seeing is um, when it comes to asking the question, are you being asked to sacrifice too much for sustainability? Um, actually 40% of men and 30, um, percent of women disagree with that. So there's greater disagreement among men than women. So women seem to care a little bit more about it than men. Um, and then when it comes to the age, we found that boomers were a little bit less engaged than, as you would expect, the younger generation Z. So that's sort of where we're looking at in terms of those, um, segments. But I think it's important to know what segment. You know, activists are great, but actually um, sometimes they're not always willing to pay more, funnily enough, and they are. But there are other segments there who the willing contributors, for example, they were more. And they tended to be older actually, but they, they, uh, and more affluent. They are. Back to your five star example, James. They are willing to pay more. So there are groups of people there who um, who will pay more. And it's not always the activists. So it's, there's some subtlety there.

Speaker D: So it's really interesting you say that because we did the project when, um, before the Ipsos acquisition we, we had a six group segmentation but there were extremes. So we had our eco evangelists, we called them at uh, one end and we had actually climate skeptics at the other. So these are not just disengaged, these actually think it's a hoax and it's mind control. And I think we can all imagine, uh, the sort of things these people might say. We asked people what areas concern them, environmental, social, governance, etc. Um, but then we asked them what behaviors they had done. Not just they were sustainable behaviours, but they weren't, you know, list the sustainable behaviors. It was have you done X? Have you done Y? Have you done Z? What I found really interesting, the eco evangelists were the top adopters across every, um, one of these behaviors. The climate skeptics were not always the lowest adopters and in some cases they were above the average. And a couple in particular, I think it was energy consumption. They were above the average in terms of reducing the amount of energy they consume and reducing food waste. They were a little bit above the average for that as well. For me, this is not because they are motivated to go out and reduce food waste or reduce energy consumption. Consumption to save the planet is because it aligns with the goal of saving money, which for them when it comes to hotel selection, was so far off the chart I actually had to rechart it. It was the biggest driver of decisions. So for me there are these groups and there are some who will fight. But I think you can take just about everybody on the journey with you if you position the message in the right way.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Great. Now that's really interesting and we've had quite a lot of conversation around hospitality. That's your background, that's what you're an expert in in hotels. Look at you. Not always just thinking about other experiences. Retail, finance, auto. What other experiences? On your travels, in terms of customer experiences, have you seen where there are great shining examples of brands doing a really great job there?

Speaker C: Yeah, well, Patagonia is the one that offers, stands out as you know, they give 1% of their sales to environmental um, and biodiversity projects. But they also have a worn and wear, um, initiative where you can send your, you know, coats, jackets back to uh, be repaired or to be fixed. And um, apparently customers who use this service spend twice as more with them than the average customer. So there are examples there where you know, they're doing the right thing, but they're actually getting more from those customers. Customers. And um, they are not cheap products and they're not cheap brands. So it's all part of their uh, brand proposition. IKEA is also another really good example where they're you know, building circularity into their offer. You know, we all love Ikea, but we've all, you know, put them up and just, just leave them there. But they're actually starting a repair, recycle, reuse and um, repurchase um, of used furniture and, and so, and you just feel well and vinted. For example, is another great example of uh, an experience where it's. Its proposition, core proposition is on reducing the waste in the fashion industry. So all of those actually help the customer feel as if they are doing a better thing as well as aligning with their goals, which is often around being fashionable in the fashion sense, but at a cheaper cost. And similarly with furniture, you know, not

Speaker B: paying as much and not, not creating more waste.

Speaker C: Exactly, exactly. That's the, that's a, you know, that's a sustainable benefit. But the benefits of, to people, yes, they feel better about that brand because it makes them feel less wasteful. That's a brand proposition and offer. But when it comes to actually their own, their own consumer benefit, they don't spend as much money on furniture. That reduction in friction is actually central to any customer experience. Where you want um, ESG to be a key part of it.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And it's just making it, as we said, Earlier. Taking away the effort, isn't it? Taking away customer effort is taught the about a lot in customer experience and it is really taking away the effort, but in a way that actually helps you to drive that brand relationship and that connection through the experience.

Speaker D: As well as that, though, focusing on the behavior is actually the only way you're going to do it because you're not as one company going to change people's attitudes and perceptions. You're just going to come across as a bit preachy. You're possibly going to disengage. Whereas if you can change the, the behaviors and even better, if you can do it in a way that people don't even notice that their behaviors have been changed, then that's so much the better.

Speaker B: What I want to do now is just think our listeners are CX leaders. And um, sue, if you were in a room with CX leaders right now from all across the world, what would you be saying to them? What are the changes you want to see in customer experience across the world in terms of esg?

Speaker C: Yeah, I just feel, I want it to be, be part of the experience to make, you know, it's so invisible at the moment. It's very rare that, you know, hotel examples and you know, as a consumer, and I'm certainly not an activist, but I feel if there continues to be this strategic silence, as we said, there is this gap between what people are actually doing and what, um, you know, people are talking about what they're doing, then consumer engagement will decrease and decrease and decrease and that's not a good thing for the world. So I think it's actually more about talking about it. It's about bringing it in in ways that's relevant to the consumers, just as some of the examples that James has been talking about and actually making it more of a prominent decision maker for people.

Speaker B: And James, you know, imagine I'm sat with you, you know, a CX leader, uh, planning out my, my strategy for 2026 and my CX vision. Where do I start from that CX perspective?

Speaker D: Well, firstly, if you're in a room with me as a CX leader, you're a hotel's CX leader. I'm not going to be across all of the other sectors like sue is. So it's going to be very much for me, the starting point is you've got to, you've got to walk in your customer's shoes. You've got to experience that journey physically. A hotel stay is a much more experiential product than most other Things. It's not like picking up a can of drink and. And you drink it and you're done. And you don't really interact with it more than that. You are there in body, you are physically in the moment. So what friction points are there in that journey that I can eliminate? I would also look to involve everybody across the hotel because there are so many great ideas within hotels teams, but there are not necessarily people who are comfortable putting those ideas forward to management. So try and find a way to get input from everybody. Uh, one of the. One of the best things we did in a training session years and years ago, uh, probably 20 years ago, was we were sent around the hotel with, at that point, digital cameras, which they had to get in, especially because we didn't have them on our phones and we were told to photograph anything that we didn't like or we thought wasn't up to standard. And so that would mean, you know, uh, a scuff paint on a wall, or it could be something that was left untidily and we brought it back to the room. And, uh, sometimes it was a bit. Not uncomfortable. That's too strong. But it was a bit like, well, that's my department, or we don't have the resource to do that, and so on. But because the leaders were there, they could say, well, actually, that's very interesting. We need to reprioritise and we need to make sure these things are getting picked up. I would have that, but with an ESG lens, where am I encouraging unsustainable M behaviors by virtue of the fact that I'm not doing enough to facilitate them.

Speaker C: And just on that point, around the staff, around, uh, employee engagement. So research that we've done shows that 81% of business leaders agree that ESG initiatives provide a competitive advantage for attracting and retaining the best talent. So, you know, actually, by engaging the staff in this, in these decisions, then they'll actually get better staff.

Speaker B: Yeah. And although you just, you know, uh, you're very humble there, just saying, you know, coming from your hotel perspective. But both of those things that you've just said are completely applicable. Whether you're a bank, whether you're an insurance company, whether you're an airline, whether you're a retailer, an auto company, you know, really looking at those friction points and looking at your ESG objectives and thinking about what can you do as a brand to improve that, I think all of our clients can take those actions away.

Speaker D: It's an ethos, though, because if it's around, and, um, certainly in the hotel sector, which is a service sector, what can we do for you? This is hospitality, this is service. It's a very powerful message. We'll do it, not we expect you to do it. And I think that showed in the advertising as well, didn't it? If your message is we as a brand will do it, it resonates far more strongly than these are things we expect you to do. It's a service mindset, actually. It's a service mindset. If you can embed that through your experience, through your teams, you'll probably sell more as well.

Speaker B: I couldn't agree more. And I think that we're seeing that and I'm having more and more conversations with clients across sectors across the world about this service mindset. And one of the podcasts that I recorded last year, which was called the Luxury Edit, I was out in Geneva with hotel retail brands. And obviously over there in Geneva, the way that you're trained as a frontline member of staff in a hotel is very different in, isn't it, from other markets? And the retailer actually said very openly, we recruit from the hotels because they've got this inbuilt, ingrained service mindset. And I think that you're right. I think there's something really, uh, poignant in what you just said. We will do this for you, not we expect you to do this. And I think it is having that mindset just coming to a close now. Just thinking about my three top takeaways here. And I just want you to, you know, see, see whether you agree or not to challenge. So my first one was about intentional authenticity. And I think a lot of brands look to other brands and say, we want to be like X, Y and Z. And a lot of brands don't think about, well, who are we? What do we want to look like, how do we want to show up? And if we all say we want to save the polar bears and save the rainforest, you know, obviously we all do. Um, but you've got to be authentic in what is in your world, what's in your sphere of control. So that one was my first one. How. How do you two feel about that one?

Speaker D: Well, for me, authenticity is, is important as well. With the example I gave earlier, you know, if you tell me that you're going to allow me to reuse my towels, then actually allow me to reuse them. So don't say one thing, but then behave in a different way.

Speaker C: Any initiative or activity that you do has to be, um, pertinent. You know, it's Is it pertinent to your business and to the world that you, you operate in? Is it authentic to your brand and your company? Is it credible? You know, is it, I mean, why would say a bank worry about the polar bears, you know, but they should be worrying about, you know, people who are financially vulnerable? That's much more relevant.

Speaker B: And then the second M1 was about measuring, you know, in uh, customer experience. It's a lot of it is about metrics and measurement and thinking about the alignment of those metrics. So csat, uh, advocacy, retention. We talk a lot about, you know, looking holistically and including those ESG and reflecting both of those metrics, such as carbon footprint diversity, labor rights, how we're treating our uh, staff diversity and inclusion. Looking at those metrics side by side on a table to really see how one may be impacting the other. That was my second, second thought.

Speaker D: Well, I think there's lots of research, isn't there, around happy, uh, staff, happy guests, you know, happy employees, happy customers. It's a logical extension that if you are performing well in certain measures, you would expect and hope to see an uptick in your headline. CX measures.

Speaker C: Back to a point that James raised earlier on. The measurement is not just a quantitative one, it's a qualitative one where you actually do walk in your customer's shoes and see with a sustainability lens what that feels like. Because actually that lens probably hasn't been put on very often when it comes to a customer's experience of say, a total hotel or purchasing an insurance product or whatever.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I think that um, you know, we can all physically go and do those, but social media as well these days there's so much data and content to be analyzed and used in customer experience now. So I really urge, uh, clients to see that as another, you know, data source and bringing that in. There's some great analytical tools to be able to help make the most of your social data as well. And my third was about design from that design perspective. Design thinking, you know, really bringing everybody together. Um, and when you're thinking of a new service, um, a new experience that you're designing, or a new journey, even if it's not about ESG, um, as 100% just having that lens in the background. What is the impact on our uh, ah, environmental, social and governance responsibilities and having that as part of the template and the framework in the room so people always have it top of mind.

Speaker C: Absolutely. I mean, I think the general sense is we're moving from morality, which is this is the right thing to do to materiality. If, if we don't do this then we uh, there's going to be a real risk to our business. So I think there's going to be, need to be a more systematic way of bringing some of those sustainability initiatives and activities that are being done by the business to see how they can um, actually be used to enhance, improve or mitigate risk against uh, a sort of, you know, a diminution of an experience as ah, service design is improved in the future.

Speaker B: And just finally, any book recommendations in terms of ESG from either of you that you'd like to share? It could be a book podcast, something you've read.

Speaker C: My favourite one still is still, um, Paul Polman's, um, net positive. Ah, Paul Polman and Andrew Winston. Um, basically how courageous companies thrive by giving more than they take. And it's um, Paul Polman is the former CEO of Unilever. And uh, they talk about, you know, realities of becoming a circular economy, um, designing products for repair and recycling rather than just assuming that everything will be, you know, made, bought, used and thrown away.

Speaker B: Thank you Sue. Thank you James. And thank you to our listeners. And um, please feel free to reach out to any of us on um, LinkedIn to follow on the conversation.

Speaker C: Thank you very much. Thank you, Helen.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker C: Really enjoyed it.

Speaker A: Thank you for listening to the Experience Perspective and Ipsos podcast. Make sure to subscribe to us on all your favorite podcast apps to have new episodes sent straight to you as soon as they're published. We're also available on Spotify. If you'd like to reach out to us, please send an email to experienceperspectiveipsos.com.