Season 9, Episode 10: The Neuroscience of Scent in Experience Design

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Experience Perspective. This is an IPSOS podcast which is for anyone interested in improving experiences for your customers and colleagues across all sectors. Across this series we will bring you insights and inspiration from around the world whilst we have a chat with experts within the field. Now let's get started.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the Experience Perspective. Today I am joined by Dan Terry Jacobson who founded Oola Lab which crafts neurosense to influence mood cognition and emotional balance. I'm also joined by my colleague Anna Maria Fuldesh, who is the head of Mystery Shopping and um, MSU in our Switzerland office. Hello to you both.

Speaker A: Hi.

Speaker C: Hello.

Speaker B: Hello. So today, um, I'm really excited about this interview because this is covering lots of really interesting topics from neuroscience, emotions, designing experiences and how to create experiences to drive that emotional attachment with customers which will ultimately drive a return on CX investment. But before we get into the conversation and I let Dan and Anna Maria introduce themselves, I'd really like everybody, uh, who's listening to have a think about your favorite experiences that have a memorable scent. So for me I remember um, an experience as early as from being four years old in an Italian restaurant that I used to visit with my family for birthdays. And unbelievably, I can still remember the scent of that Italian restaurant, um, right now. The garlic pizza bread, the candles, the wine on the tables, the bread sticks. And I can really conjure that up, so much so that it could almost make my mouth water. Um, and I just think that's fascinating. I won't disclose how old I am now, but from um, from an experience perspective, it'd be great to see in the chats, um, on LinkedIn or elsewhere, what are your favorite, um, memories that are linked with Ascent and maybe Dan or uh, Anna Maria, if you have one, you can share in your introduction. So first of all, Dan, I'd like to start with you. So thank you for joining us on the Experience Perspective podcast.

Speaker D: Thank you for having me on your show today. I am Dan Terry, founder of ulalab. I would consider myself a, ah, humanist. I'm intensely curious about the human condition, particularly the anthropology of humans and society and culture. And so I was primarily interested in experience design and uh, fell into olfaction as a byproduct of that.

Speaker B: Annemarie, would you like to introduce yourself?

Speaker C: Hello Helen. Hello Dan. And hello everybody. Thank you very much, uh, for inviting me today. So just briefly, uh, I'm leading teams of experts in uh, one of our uh, Swiss, uh, IPSOS offices in Geneva and We've been working uh, with our clients to support them, uh, to deliver outstanding customer experience as well as with, uh, helping their strategic discussions with uh, fundamental understanding of customers, shopping shoppers, uh, both in B2B and B2C. So lots of sectors and lots of super exciting conversations.

Speaker B: Fantastic. So first of all, Dan, I'd love to know how on earth you got into this world of olfaction. You know, it's super interesting and it's so unique. I think you're the first scent designer I've ever met. So, um, tell us a little bit about your career and where you started.

Speaker D: Uh, I fell into olfaction as a byproduct of my love for uh, sensorial experience design. And what really interests me was how uh, environments can uh, make us feel, how memories are formed, how emotion is triggered. And this is something that I've continued to explore inside Ulalab, uh, fragrance as a modality, as an intersection of science, culture, uh, and emotion. I didn't fall into uh, fragrance, uh, by default. Uh, it was actually, uh, as I mentioned to my love of culture and anthropology, I was born in Africa and then to my early 20s and then from there I, uh, spent some time in Australia. And then the last 15 years I've been in Asia, traveling around and working the space, but as well as more recently also into the Middle East. And I just love the fact that people could have such different experiences for fragrance, uh, in different parts of the world. How fragrances could relate back to rituals, to religion, to food, of course, which is a massive one. And I just loved how that could form a narrative. But also specifically it just made me realize how meaning is constructed rather than given. And uh, for me, I guess I've also fashioned myself as a bit of a discoverer. And uh, there's no new lands to be discovered, uh, on Earth at this stage at least. And so for me this is really is a, uh, discovery of inner space. And it just continuously amazes me of um, you know, especially we work with amazing set of uh, clients and new projects that are brought through. But also just um, even in the consumers that we interact with, everybody just brings a little bit of a different dimension. And I just love that humanity behind it.

Speaker B: So what's really interesting for me is you, you've talked um, to us before in our introduct. You talked about the connection between the olfactory system and the limbic brain and how smell bypasses rational thoughts and it goes straight to emotion. So talk to me a little bit about that. What is the Neuroscience behind smell and, um, memory.

Speaker D: Well, it's a fascinating subject. And at, uh, the level of biology, essentially, when you smell something, we have a direct neural passageway to our brains. So it was actually passing our conscious, uh, attention and going directly. Often, in fact, we interpret a lot of fragrances at a conscious level. And as compared to things that you might see or hear, there's a lot of what we call mural hops that have to pass through, um, our logical brain, our rational brain, before it even reaches our emotion. And when it comes to fragrance, why it's often so associated with memory and emotion is because it's actually processed alongside the faculties, uh, in our brain, in our limbic system.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's interesting. And, and as I said in the introduction, it's. It's fascinating that I can still remember something from being as young as four. Is that. Is that quite normal, uh, for people to do this? Can you. Can you remember something that you know from. From that long, long ago yourselves?

Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, fragrances have this amazing ability to connect us back to autobiographical memories and certainly our sense of nostalgia. We all have these moments where we might be walking along a road and pick up a certain aroma. And it takes us back to a time and a place. You know, the beauty as well about olfaction is it's a nonverbal function. So we almost don't even need a language to decode it, which makes it, in one sense, quite universal. But in another sense, it is beyond the need to describe in words, which I think is quite beautiful.

Speaker B: And in terms of that, it's interesting when you talked about anthropology and you've. And you've lived and worked in many different cultures, from a cultural perspective, how universal are, uh, sense? So when you're thinking about sense and when you're working with businesses designing sense across the world, um, how easy is that, uh, in terms of the interpretation of them and what they mean?

Speaker D: Um, there are some universal truths when it comes to fragrance. Not many really, but, uh, some of them would be, um, for instance, the smell of smoke, which typically would connotate a sense of danger, um, or spirituality as well. Uh, the smell of something rotten would also suggest something that we should stay away or certainly not consume. Uh, and then also those hedonic cues from nature, such as fresh, uh, air or greenery, also, um, related to our sense of survival. But beyond that, everything else seems to be quite subjective and quite, um, uh, biased based on geography, uh, culture, religion, family, uh, tradition and so forth. So I think therein lies the, uh. The Challenge but also the beauty of the experience.

Speaker B: Great. And thinking about um, you Anna Maria, um, you're an expert in retail and luxury experiences. What role have you seen that scent has played in the, in the sorts of projects and the clients that you work with?

Speaker C: Can we focus on the science of fragrances? We know that 65% of uh, uh the customers say that fragrances do more then make products smell good. So scents mean emotions and you know in a word where attention and intimacy has become the highest forms of luxury. Fragrances can hold a very rare kind of power. So it's one of the few mediums that can basically connect uh individuals with the brand. So ah, ascent can even be a driver of choice choice when it comes to a specific brand, a specific uh provider um as well as the association um as Dan just mentioned uh to different uh smiles, different scents, uh when it's something uh very unique. And then people's brain uh would associate uh with that specific location of a retailer for example as well as it can make also some negative connotations. For example just thinking about uh a nice experience in the retailer or in a restaurant or uh, or in a shopping uh center and then uh there is a visit in the restroom and then the smell is something uh that uh wouldn't invite us uh to visit it again. So it can uh be a positive as well as a negative driver and also uh the personalization. This is why I guess uh Den's uh work is really uh super important because uh when it comes to hyper personalization uh and clients in the luxury especially then sense have a very very specific and very special role.

Speaker D: And to that point Anna Maria of course there are both uh wanted and unwanted or unexpected aromas and environments. And uh the spatial designer's role is to ensure that they really inhabit that space and understand how they can design for um, or control certain factors.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I agree it's um interesting. I've worked on some experience design projects for hotels for example where you know fragrance. When we're designing a new hotel bedroom experience it's been really important thinking about the fragrance of the, of the room but also the products and um, what the brand connotations are uh that are coming from the smell of the, the shower gel and the, the soap and the um, you know the body lotions but also the overall smell and fragra of the room itself. And so it does play a really important role in every experience.

Speaker C: When it comes to customer experience what is the role of scent? What's the impact on memories? How would you describe it in your work or from your work experience.

Speaker D: The impact of memory is significant largely because sense, uh, of smell, uh, is processed in that part of our brain that actually handles that memory. And research, uh, has shown that we remember what we smell with a much greater clarity and over a much longer period than what we see or what we hear.

Speaker C: And when it comes to customer experience and uh, when you are designing it, uh, you have a special role as well with the scents and the design of it.

Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. And uh, we never approach it from um, how should this smell, but rather what do we want, uh, this experience to make people feel? And I think that's the real differentiator. Uh, and uh, it comes down to really understanding the space, uh, the expectations of the people inside the environment, uh, as well as another important point is all the other sensorial touch points of that environment. So ultimately we are looking for congruency and the fragrance should match the expectations of the people, but also the other uh, elements of that sensorial palette, whether it be what we see or hear or touch and so forth.

Speaker B: Yeah, and it's interesting how aligned that is with our philosophy and our approach in terms of customer experience. We talk a lot about expectations and expectations are obviously driven by the brand, um, and your previous experience of that particular sector, but also adjacent sectors as well that are influencing our expectations every day. So an experience, for example in a, in a hotel might influence your expectations of a banking branch experience when you, when you go in there. So thinking about those um, liquid expectations, that's uh, the term that we uh, often reference, um, thinking about liquid expectations. Have you seen, do you, do you look at that in your work as well in terms of expectations, how one sector might be driving expectations in a completely different one?

Speaker D: Well, it's an interesting question and uh, I don't think any sector, uh, happens in a void. So there's absolutely um, experiences that are becoming liquid or flowing over from one experience to another. At case in point is well being, I think the uh, world. And maybe it's a good trend that we're on. Everybody's gone a little bit uh, wellness crazy. And that's great. But we're really understanding that you don't necessarily need to go to a spa to experience wellbeing. But uh, it does come down to how we can understand our environment, how we can set that environment up, how we can design it, as well as a little bit of a greater sensitivity towards the individual.

Speaker B: Just thinking about the R and D that we've done in Ipsos as Well, we've actually proved, uh, the financial impact of emotions in customer experience as well. We can see from the research and development that we've done that there is, um, a greater increase in advocacy, satisfaction and retention, um, when we look at experiences that fulfill those emotional needs. So when we're looking at measuring, um, managing, designing and delivering experiences and helping our clients to improve those experiences, emotions plays a really big part in that. And I agree that sense plays such a strong, A strong role. Um, so where do you start in designing scents for different industries? I know that you've got a whole portfolio of different projects and work that you've done. Would you like to share some stories with us of projects that you've worked on designing customer experience smells across the world?

Speaker D: There is a sense that, uh, with fragrance there is a play on beautification and we want to smell good. We want our spaces to smell good, which is absolutely true. We do. However, we always start this conversation by looking at the space, uh, looking at how it's designed, uh, the intentions of the brand. And uh, for me, fragrance and expression of fragrance is an emotion. And more often than not, we would start with the question, what do you want your customers to feel? And so you start from that space. And, um, having worked, as you mentioned, across a variety of industries, I think I, uh, could give a few examples. One would be, uh, designing a fragrance for Changi Airport, which, uh, hovers between the number one and number two airports in the world. And as you would know, Singapore, uh, is a city state. And designing a fragrance for the airport was really an amazing opportunity because we were also, um, leaning into place making uh, as well as really understanding, uh, how we could convey, uh, uh, that message of Singapore as a brand, uh, as a destination. And the key part of the brief there was translating Singapore as a garden city. And uh, so of course we brought in a lot of, uh, hedonic qualities of nature, uh, into the space. And specifically we teased out, uh, the orchid, uh, which is Singapore's national flower. Um, of course most orchids have little to no aroma, but of course, uh, we managed to also add a number of other ingredients, uh, that identified with Singapore, but as well as just the sense of, of walking through a garden. And this was also predicated on the emotional state that many, uh, travelers have, uh, as they traverse through an airport, which is often, uh, running to catch their plane or, uh, being in a bit of a frenetic state, uh, grabbing their baggage. Uh, it's definitely an emotionally fraught, uh, environment. Um, and so we Wanted to change that with uh, the fragrance. We wanted people to slow down and take on much uh, more of um, a casual journey through the airport, taking in the sights and the sounds uh, of the environment, just to stretch or to push the boat out on examples. I'll just give you some uh, unique case studies, another one being Tower Transit which is uh, one of the public bus operators in Singapore. And uh, they approached us to uh, to see how that could change the, the perception of their journey. And of course you know, when it comes to public uh, commuters, uh, a very uh, tough bunch to please, uh, all of them all the time. Uh, and we also know that uh, the one key requirement um, of these commuters is that ah, the buses should run on time. But beyond that we try to also again focus on the quality of the experience. And we know for a fact that fragrance can enhanced perception of an experience. In fact it's been shown to truncate our experience of time. So for instance when we're having a good time, the moments seem to pass much quicker. And so to that extent, and research has actually shown this is that people perceive the uh, length of time to be much shorter, which is great when you're on a commute. But also as we know scent can um, elevate mood. And so the hope was also by implementing a fragrance that people would enjoy the experience just, just that much more. Taken again, uh, the sights and the sounds and enjoy the journey. Uh, another important point to mention is of course especially in these kind of environments you need to be careful uh, with uh, the nature of the fragrance you design. It needs to be quite universal and palatable. But also intensity is something that you need to control for you know, relates back to your point which is really interesting about hygiene and uh, you know when you think back to some of the first fragrances that were designed, they use animalic notes and what we refer to animalic notes is often smell. Quite crude. They often had what we call a fecal quality. So people were you know, walking around smelling a little bit like poo and uh, that would just, would not go down these days. So also remember there was uh, before the motor vehicles there were horse drawn carriages and obviously horses were using their parts to. Exactly, exactly. So everything is so sanitized these days. But uh, and over sanitized. But you know I think we talk about fragrance as a tool for um, beautification but, and of course for cultural interpretation and so forth. But uh, I think an interesting caveat to that is working with some clients where they Actually want, uh, unpleasant aromas, shall I say, to be part of that script. And one of those is working with Universal, uh, studios, who we work with for also many, many years on their, uh, Halloween horror nights. And part of that is each year they approach us, they challenge us, uh, to try to find, uh, some fragrances that are even more revolting than the previous year. And this could be anything from rotting garbage to the smell of death. I think that's. That's really something powerful. But also what I think is quite interesting beyond the revulsion, is using fragrances like the smell of natural gas, because that heightens our anticipation and, uh, our sense of dread, the sense that something may be about to explode or to go off. As well as, uh, a cultural point. One year we use the smell of frangipani flowers that, uh, is actually associated with a, um, Malay ghost called Pontiac.

Speaker B: Now, well, that's really interesting and I like that word script because in customer experience, it's all a theater. We often, in experience design, uh, refer to, um, front stage backstage experiences. A front stage being what the customer experiences the backstage, what's going on for employees. And I love that analogy of the theater because this is what all of our brands are trying to create. This production, um, of who they are and the immersive experience and the digital experience.

Speaker D: Definitely. Just like to add a point as well that with fragrance, I know a lot is made out of, uh, what should it smell like and, um, you know, what is the story behind it. But when it's designed well, it doesn't shout. It becomes a natural part of the experience of the environment, uh, and it becomes a brand asset. So when people re. Encounter that fragrance, they're not picking the notes apart saying, I can smell the jasmine or the bergamot. They're associating it with all the memories that they've already had with that brand and that place.

Speaker B: As you're talking, you're making me think about the forces of cx, which is our framework of helping our clients to understand the experiences, um, that they are, uh, designing and delivering for customers. And the forces are six, uh, there's six key ingredients which are the hygiene ones are control, fair treatment and certainty. And then the way to differentiate once these hygiene forces are met, um, are enjoyment, belonging and status. And it's interesting as you're talking, it's making me think about that because you mentioned enjoyment, uh, as being, uh, you know, a key need when you're traveling. But obviously from a safety perspective, and you mentioned it earlier, you know, the smell of Smoke if, if you're on the. If we're on the tube in London or if you're on a bus, that immediately people do start looking around if they can smell. And it picks up that kind of. That fear, that animalistic fear in us. So, um, so do you think about it in those layers as well? Do you think about it from those hygiene, uh, perspectives, making sure, first of all, people feel safe and that things are clean and there's nothing rotten around. Um, and then, you know, layering it up to enjoyment and status and elevating the experience?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think, I think that's a valid point. Of course, um, you know, these days the hygiene factor is real. And, uh, most environments already smell quite clean and sometimes quite clinical, which can, you know, habits, its own, um, challenges in itself. Uh, but certainly if there are odours or things that are unappealing, we definitely would have to address those. You know, beyond that, I think fragrance, uh, you know, it's obviously used as a storytelling tool and it just fits into, into how we're trying to define a specific environment. So, you know, hygiene, yes, at a certain level may play that role. And to Anna Maria's point, you know, sometimes there's certain unpleasant aromas that need to be catered to. But, uh, we're really in our society, the level of hygiene and sanitization of our senses is already so high that normally, uh, the level that we come in at, uh, we're really treating it more as, um, something that can be, uh, developed as a brand asset, uh, a brand narrative piece. And sometimes also no fragrance. You know, you spoke about hotel rooms. There are certain environments that need to be treated and certain without fragrance. It's perhaps also sometimes when we talk about music, uh, the notes are as important as the spaces between.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And. And also thinking about it, you know, you're designing a scent, a perfume. But fragrance comes from lots of different things, doesn't it? From the washing powder that we use, from the food that we eat, if somebody smokes, from the deodorant that we wear. Um, so, yeah, you've got a lot of. A lot of notes playing for attention. Haven' in that environment. And cleanliness, like operational cleanliness and operational hygiene is number one. Making sure that you've got a blank canvas to then layer your fragrances on.

Speaker D: And also working with people's perceptions, ah, or expectations regarding certain products or environments. Another case in point is we work with Mount Navina Hospital, uh, in Singapore, which is a private hospital. And uh, since the inception, about, um, ten Years ago. And uh, from the start they wanted to be perceived more uh, as a hotel than a hospital. And one of the key issues was uh, those odours that seem to be associated with hospitals. Some of them are definitely clinical and hygiene related, others may be related to food. And we could potentially also argue that, that certain sicknesses also give off a certain odor, whether we can perceive that on a conscious level or not. And uh, so we work with them uh to create a fragrance profile that was indicative of the outdoors. We know uh, this uh, sensor biophilia and how we can use that. Uh, it's been a design discipline for many years but in this case we applied it specifically to the fragrance and how it could bring those uh, hedonic qualities. The outdoor, indoor. This was pre, the wellness boom. But also in that sense how a space could be used for restoration and recovery.

Speaker B: Yes, and I see that's quite a big theme at the moment. Some of the hospitals, I think, I can't remember which one but in the UK are ah, trialing having outdoor wards that some of the long term patients can go outside and get sunlight and they're making them like so important, you know, with, with the different flowers and plants out there and having that wellness kind of space and, and being more holistic.

Speaker C: Then you also mentioned brand assets and expectations and I see uh, from our retail execution audit uh programs as well as from mystery Shopping that it is super, super important to our clients to understand the, the sensory touch point, uh to, to measure how much it works as a driver, how much uh expectations meet reality. So uh, we do a lot of, a lot of studies and in our questionnaires it's always uh, a relevant part. But I'm just wondering because we also know that uh, so scents and fragrances uh, would uh, be appealing to generations for example differently as well as uh, culturally, uh could mean uh, a great deal of difference. So do you take it into account when you design how uh, your sense or how the fragrance that you design for um, a hotel or for the airport that uh, it could fit into uh, uh, that local tea, that country, uh, or the target group itself?

Speaker D: Yeah, it's absolutely critical and uh, you know we have this uh, anthropological approach to how we design fragrances. And uh, we love cultural immersion. And this is something that we take quite seriously because as I mentioned before, different cultures and communities can respond to fragrances in a different way. So before anything is even designed, we need to understand who is our audience, who are we speaking to, what is the cultural but also the Geographical context of how we delivering the fragrance and beyond that also what are the activities inside of the space, uh, what is the dwell time of people inside there and so forth. So we really need to bring all of these elements to bear on that fragrance design process.

Speaker C: Are there any industries uh, that are currently underutilizing the scent? And you'd say that there is a big opportunity uh, to use when it comes to experience design or introducing scent as a touch point, any specific sector.

Speaker D: Initially it was hospitality that really got the concept of a fragrance and how it could add value to the total customer journey and experience, uh, then retail as well. But I think there's a fascinating direction now happening in wellness and the conversation shifting from physical health towards nervous system regulation, emotional well being, uh, intensity health. And I think SINT has a very important role to play here. Uh aside some of our other modalities for sound like touch, uh, and environmental design, but specifically healthcare I think is great. Historically um, there's been a little bit of caution around how that could add fragrance. But I do see that there's a growing interest uh in how they evaluate how sensory environments can influence stress um, and provide um, comfort to patients. Uh another really interesting one is the workplace. So which has historically been built around productivity. But uh, I think now again as we look into spaces increasingly for emotional regulation there is potential to use um sensory design tools to support restoration, uh, uh, creativity and so forth. I think those are some of the key areas.

Speaker B: That's fascinating. And in terms of, yeah, in talking to brands about that and thinking about what they want to get out of their, of employees in terms of production and creativity and wellness and balance. Are you working with um, specific organizations thinking about that from an employee perspective right now?

Speaker D: We've worked with a number of call centres in the past. I think historically we focus on the productivity side of things and there is actually research that shows uh, people can type faster, uh, they're less likely to, to uh, make errors and so forth. So there was a lot of an argument for productivity. But you know I think also as, as the space takes hold on the workplace, I think fragrance also forms a part of the overall redesign of that space. So I think we also need to work in tandem with partners uh, such um, as architects and interior designers that can also help to move this body of work forward.

Speaker B: Thinking about digital experiences, we can't avoid the AI question. AI online digital experiences. How is ah, AI and technology really changing how people react in an environment? Because it's interesting isn't it when we Think about COVID We didn't go to different places for a very long time. Um, so you were almost sort of reborn mentally into places and probably had a really sharp clear view of places when you were going in because it was such a relief wasn't it, going back out into the world again. And I wonder with digital experiences and online experiences whether people are having those same expectations. This is a question for you both. The role of face to face, the role of physical experiences, the role of in person immersive experiences nowadays in the world. Do we feel like it's changing? Anna Maria what's your point of view?

Speaker C: There's, we see that currently over 70% of uh, the customers are using AI to collect uh, any kind of knowledge basically to collect advice when it comes to shopping. But then when it comes to AI doing the shopping for them, so the auto purchase it's uh, not reaching 10%. What does it mean when it comes to experience? Uh, design? It uh, it means that AI is there but the human experience is still very well needed. So we always see and say that uh, these should AI and uh, AGI, so artificial and human should nicely uh, work together and reinforce each other rather than replacing each other. But uh, I'm sure that then maybe. And when you do your design workshops you also get similar questions and experiences.

Speaker D: I do also feel that ah, there is a counterpoint and that is uh, the human condition. Fragrance in our sense of smell and olfaction is just so personal and human, um, somewhat idiosyncratic as well. I'm not sure if we can design uh, an AI for that. the end of the day it's also an almost solely human experience and something that must be experienced in the moment. So I think we can probably artificially create a variety of these experiences. But I have a feeling that we were gonna want to come back home m to our imperfect selves.

Speaker B: And I wonder from a neuroscience perspective because so many of our experiences are digital and online that when, when we do go into a physical environment now um, our brains are actually even more receptive because ah, being you know, kept in a box away from physical experiences. So when we do go into the experiences we are, it's even more intense what we smell, what we see, what we hear, what we touch, what we feel. Um, I wonder if we're seeing, are we seeing any of that in our research?

Speaker C: Ada Maria yeah, absolutely. So uh, so we see that uh, that the connection to different brains are stronger uh when there is a possibility uh, of connecting uh, to emotions, to sense to uh, the touch and feel and also uh, the trust is stronger uh, when the human experience is there. So as much as we design everything, uh, um, omnichannel and we make sure that all the uh, the possible AI tools to support the decision making. But at the end of the day the decision is made by the human. And this is why it's very, very important to have ah, the human part of the narrative.

Speaker B: So the end point there is multi dimensional experiences is still very, very important. Even in the world that is being driven, digital driven AI there is, is real value in having these physical experiences.

Speaker C: Absolutely. Even for uh, the youngest generations. Although we would say that they are the most uh, AI savvy. But for them um, the online uh, is uh, more like uh, the showroom. And uh, then the decision is made in the physical space.

Speaker D: Uh, as humans we interpret the world and we make meaning to all of our senses. So the most comprehensive, most immersive story is going to be something that touches on everything, not only what we see or we hear, which is your typical digital experience, but also how we can incorporate some of these other elements, whether it's uh, tactile or factory gustatory. I think uh, the real question is how that can be designed in a way that is uh, authentic and not gimmicky.

Speaker B: If you had to leave our experienced leaders with one piece of advice, Dan from, from all your work, what would, what would that be?

Speaker D: Be authentic and uh, be collaborative. Uh, many of the most memorable experiences aren't the most whiz bang experiences out there. They're just the ones that feel honest, human and designed, uh, around how people want to feel.

Speaker B: Excellent. Thank you very much for your time.

Speaker A: Thank you for listening to the Experience Perspective, an Ipsos podcast. Make sure to subscribe to us on all your favorite podcast apps to have new episodes sent straight to you as soon as they're published. We're also available on Spotify. If you'd like to reach out to us, please send an email to experienceperspectiveipsos.com.