Building Skills from the Ground Up: Solving the U.S. Construction Workforce Crisis

Speaker A: Foreign

Speaker B: welcome to the Everyday PM podcast. The podcast where we discuss project management principles for your everyday life. My name is Anne Campia, I am a project manager, I'm an operations leader and I am also the host and founder of the Everyday pm. I am so excited to welcome our very special guest, Dr. Mala who is here to talk about the US construction workforce crisis. Building skills from the ground up. Now Dr. Mala you have a ton of accolades behind you. You're currently the senior project management professional, um, you're also a PMI Global Construction Ambassador. Uh, you've worked on infrastructure programs that are in the excess of 47 billion plus dollars. I mean you just have it all and you've spent a majority of your career in the construction uh project management space. So I'm sorry, so honored and excited to have you on the podcast to share your insights about this world. Uh, for those who have not met you yet, please take a brief moment to introduce yourself to our audience.

Speaker A: Thank you so much Anne and I uh, really feel privileged to having got an opportunity to discuss about the kind of current status of the construction industry and what sort of issues, challenges or pain points that are existent and how the construction uh workforce in the US is having sort of uh major backlog with respect to skills and the workforce. And even at the professional level there's lac, you know of various skill sets that needs to be developed in a very meteoric phase. Otherwise I think there would be a big challenging issues with respect to constructing mega projects which I would like to discuss in the following conversations. And I thank also an everyday uh PM podcast for trying to give my reflective thoughts on the various sorts of construction um related uh day to day issues on or problems that exist. So to begin with I'm a senior construction project management professional. So it's been like more than 17 years I have been in the construction landscape navigating towards the various ebbs and flows of various regions that I have worked for. I worked in the Asian country like India and then I moved to Canada. Canada where I worked for large uh transit or the mega projects like the Ontario line Hood Ontario as well as uh, EV battery manufacturing plants which I got an opportunity um, to expose, have a different geographical exposure with respect to my brought up which which was uh, in the other country and then now I have been playing a pivotal role in the current US construction industry especially in the project management uh with respect to controlling the projects, project controls roles for uh, the various projects that are there in the uh US construction industry. So currently I'm playing One of the key role in the project management information systems solutions development uh for uh planning, scheduling and risk management systems for Port of Oakland um and um, apart from that uh I have got work experience spanning rail from the rail or the transit projects to aviation, maritime, uh commercial real estate, water, industrial and life sciences. I was privileged to have a taste of the different div or the diverse infrastructure programs and uh, apart from this majority of my career has been revolved around the project control stores. So what's project control? It's more of like controlling the time schedule and scope of any project or a program it could be. So apart from that um. I've been actively volunteering and uh, I've been recently nominated like as you mentioned and um for the PMI Global Construction Ambassador in the North American uh segment.

Speaker B: Absolutely yeah.

Speaker A: Which is where I'm trying to focus on the various uh digital construction management initiatives that needs to be brought into and the kind of efficient processes and being more specifically tool agnostic rather concentrating more on the domain of the various knowledge domain expertise rather than just being tool specific or tool is just being an enabler but it shouldn't be the main basic core element with which they can work on. And apart from that I'm also playing a key role as a co vice president for AAC New Jersey section which is the association of Advancement and Cost Engineering and also I work as a project manager for uh professional development uh PMI Biz Talk series. Apart from that I have certain uh competency skills with respect to PMP Lead Green Associate, Lean Six Sigma, Black Belt. So over a period of time I have got um a kind of uh notion that uh digitalization was missing in the construction industry. And that's when I pivoted towards pursuing my doctoral degree and and pursued my doctoral studies uh and completed it in 2024 and I've been continuously publishing research articles may on um in the major publications such as international peer reviewed journals from, from American Society of Civil Engineers, Emerald Publications, Taylor and Francis and apart from that book chapters and I'm an active uh proponent of women in construction industry. So I wanted to make many of the women peers in the construction industry to understand that construction is not just a kind of a male dominated carrier. M Every woman can have their foothold. It's like the resilience, the commitment and the kind of clear vision that they need to have fixated in their mind rather than just going with the stereotype kind of outlook they have been passed out to their family members or so. So that's a That's a brief thing about myself.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I'm so grateful for the time that you have to just spend some time with our audience today to talk about this critical issue around, you know, the construction workforce crisis and what uh, the skill gaps could be within this space. This is essentially how Dr. Mala and I have connected. So for those that are listening, thankful, uh, for PMI connecting us because they saw the work that Dr. Mala has described she's been doing across her span of her career. And I just published my dissertation on sense of belonging of women in construction. And so we ultimately found synergy and the shared purpose here. And so we're super excited to bring this topic to the everyday PM uh, podcast audience for that reason. So let's just dive in. Because Dr. Mala, based on the uh, mega projects that you worked on, the infrastructure programs that you've worked on, obviously from your frontline experience being within the construction space, uh, what does the US Construction workforce crisis actually look like on the ground? And what are you seeing that keeps you up at night?

Speaker A: Well, there is not a single uh, problem or a pain point that is causing the construction workforce crisis. So on the ground the US construction force looks like uh, as if it's, it doesn't look like quite abstract, it more looks like schedules that I technically work on paper but then when it comes to the execution it fails. So why is that? Because like for instance some of the mega projects that I worked like in the Ontario line and um, various sorts of um, projects in the Port of Oakland also. Currently it's not just about the headcount that matters, but it's the capability of the resources that are also present, um, is also of paramount, uh, importance. Okay, so here the critical roles that needs to be played are actually missed uh, for making sure that the construction projects to be successful. Like for instance, um, if we look at the aspect of experienced planners or the schedulers per se, there is lacuna of planners and schedulers who understand the construction, um, logic, risk and constructability.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: They are more experts in using a particular tool, but they haven't got that knack of understanding the ground realities. So if you build something on the system or a paper, it needs to translate into the ground reality. That's what it's missing. So these, the critical roles, like the experience planners are a big bottleneck. Earlier majority of the planners, their due diligence was to go to the project sites, visualize the entire progress that's happening in the project sites, and then come back and try to make Inputs to their schedules in the software and that's how they try to check whether the schedule and the on ground reality matches. So nowadays that sort of expertise is something which is missing in majority of the projects. So this is with the professional level I'm trying to mention like mhm. When it comes to supervisors, the current supervisors who are also graduating and getting into those roles should be in a position to translate the schedule. So, so what is the schedule like for the novice? Uh, people like you have a construction schedule which is having a particular project with many activities with start and finish dates and what's the critical path. All these sorts of information will be there. So there is lack of supervisors who can translate these schedules into daily work plans. Mhm. So this sort of another issue is there. So because of this they are reeling under the rework due to poor coordination. And many of the times the long lead items like for instance if you take the transit projects, the sort of systems that needs to come into picture, all these kinds of long lead items are being misunderstood. And also they also have to wait for crews until their upstream planning is being meticulously done. So upstream planning is something which is getting failed because the crews are waiting for this information. So how can we have the skill gap? So I was trying to mention about the skill gaps and now there is a other bigger issue that is the labor shortage. Mhm. So labor shortage would slow the projects. However the skills which are, I mean like the skill gaps would try to break the projects. So you require workforce who is having the skills and you require the workforce who actually builds the, the real groundwork which they would be performing. So workers exist, but then many of them cannot translate or read a critical ah, path method schedule. So the professionals who work in the project site, like the supervisors or the other resident engineers or in charges needs to translate them. This is what they have to build it. So that's missing and very few understand interface risk. So construction is not a single siloed kind of only civil engineers, only mechanical engineers. It's not a silos oriented engineers who work. So civil, mechanical, electrical, plumbing and you have various sorts of other discipline departments that you need to connect with. So this sort of interface risk and float ownership and the kind of recovery plan that they have to make in case if they miss the day line or the delays is also missing. So because of this as a result you have this artificial acceleration and unsafe stacking of trades so you have less time and you have to complete the work. So you bring in at a sudden numerous number of workforce to try to, to accomplish with a very less amount of time. So unsafe incidences happen and that's again a kind of unsafe stacking of trades that happen. And then after all this, you have legal disputes that happens and then finally claims the various sorts of, um, legal disputes happen across various parties with respect to contractor owner and the other sub consultants and consultants. So this is how it looks like. So what I can tell is the crisis is not just about not having workers, but it's about not having ready skilled workers.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The way you've compartmentalized that makes a lot of sense because the context you provided is it's not just a pipeline issue. Right. We're getting talent in. It's just there's also this other gap that exists around the skills. So I'm curious in terms of how you've seen that compare to. Because construction is global and obviously you carry such a wealth of experience. Not just, um, we're talking about us right now, but obviously you've done a lot of work in Canada and around the world. How does that compare to what you've seen globally?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, uh, there are multiple factors that needs to be looked into. So with respect to the Asian countries which I worked, there was a strong technical depth that's involved and also the execution was quite heavy. However, there was a kind of, um, less adoption of technology. And what I found was there was more fatigue in the workers that they've been working. And very slowly, what I imagine is a sense of uh, pride in their workmanship is being missed. Like for instance, I'll tell you a group of workers who have been, I mean like you expect. If, uh, I'm an, if my father is an engineer, you expect your daughter. I mean like you come from a breed of doctors or engineers, you expect your lineage to also to follow the same thing. But in the construction force. It's not just about the construction force at the trades level. It's so happening that their children are taking up some other professions. So this aging workforce, workforce further, their lineage are not continuing in the trades. They're going to some other domain. So that is an issue with the Asian countries that I work with. It's happening like the lineage is not being continued and they have um, a kind of concentrated pockets of workforce that's existing in particular regions. So when those regional workforce are absent, it's difficult for the entire project to go in a, in a stalled manner. So. So the kinds of labor laws and are like quite good over there. However, they do not have that Kind of foundational knowledge literacy. Very slowly they are being developed. I think some of the interesting aspects can be emulated in the other regions of the world too. So that's with respect to Asian. So when it comes to Canada, so there was better integration of this planning and controls. So they have specific. They're quite um, focused on having proper planning controls. However for them again the aging workforce is the biggest backdrop. Then with respect to United States, what I found was like they're having the best tools in the world. However, I think the weakness exists in having proper foundational planning knowledge or planning literacy skills that needs to be developed. And also this is also again another uh, issue. Majority of the workforce lineage, their family is again not following the same trade path. However, in some of the conversations with the various big technology um, uh, leaders like um, Nvidia CEO is mentioning like in future the plumbers, the ground workforce people would be having the highest demand and salaries.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Probably because you have lesser number of people who would do those kinds of jobs. It cannot be replaced by any automation or AI systems, those kinds of building on the ground kind of stuff. It cannot be replaced by an AI or robots or automation.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So the real project impacts if we don't have proper workforce, who is having proper skill set. Delays are the order of the norm cost overruns from the reactive decision making because you don't have any proactive decisions which you can take forward. And then safety incidents caused by compressed schedules. You have less time, you put in whatever that you have. But then for any product to have a perfect realization they need to have. They need to be proper maturity time cycle. If you compress it by bombarding with lots of resources, will not yield at the last minute with the product that you want to with the product or the deliverables that you want to bring into picture. So at the at conclusion I would say that the crisis isn't about not having the workers, but it's about not having ready workers. Mhm.

Speaker B: That's super fascinating and I think um, a space where. And I just want to call this out because you highlighted it in the way that you outlined um, the response to what I asked, which is AI is not going to be what is going to drive construction in the future. It will be an element or component of it. But to your point point, there's still going to be the need for this talent to exist where we are trying to build those skills from the ground up. Uh, you tapped into the, the concept of trades women versus you know, or trades people. Um, and and why that will be a critical still play a critical role even in the space where technology and everything is advanced, advancing in construction. But I have to, I have to tap into this just because I think you and I have a shared interest in the space, which is the diversity dimension of this topic. Uh, you've obviously published extensively on women in construction. Uh, you've presented on inclusivity, creating an inclusive culture and construction workplaces. And my dissertation is also on women and their sense of belonging in the industry. So how does addressing diversity and inclusion help the crisis? If you think it does help or help solve the crisis, uh, is the first part of this. And in what ways do you think it would? If you are saying yes, it will, and then if it's not, then what are those practical solutions that we can start to look at to start to bridge this gap?

Speaker A: Well, uh, for this question, I feel like especially in this, this era of dynamic changes, uh, or evolving changes that happens every now and then, it's a culmination of having diverse set of team um, members would literally add innovation in whatever ah, task they're put up to with like having a diverse talent, uh, or the kind of um, diverse diversity would definitely bring in the different perspectives so that different perspectives yields to innovative dimension. So that could be in the process or the development of a tool or the development of people. It could be. So I feel that it's not the diversity problem, it's, it's a capacity problem rather. I would like payment.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So we need to have a proper work culture in the construction industry. I think very slowly. What I understand is like for instance, when I have entered into the construction industry, which was like way back 17 years ago, I was the only female candidate who have been selected in that company for that uh, set of group. And you imagine very slowly after, after 15 years or so, I found that there is enhancement of women getting into the construction roles very slowly. So there are few organizations that propose or try to be a proponent for allowing women to enter into this field. I feel that there are certain traits which, I mean like if you have read the book Men are from Mars,

Speaker B: Mars Women are from Venus, yes, certain

Speaker A: traits are quite advantageous. I can say they are the key levers for women to get into the project management roles. Like women, I feel that they can juggle lot of multiple things and we can. And I feel that this sort of a trade where they have multifaceted uh, perspectives that they need to look at and the kind of coordination coordinator roles and the kind of visualized or the kind of um, uh, digital roles is something like, which has come up, which has got an uptick especially from the COVID time onwards. Like yeah, it's not necessary that you need to uh, uh. You need not just be in the project site and the hardships to work or uh, to get into the construction industry. Rather you have design kinds of rules. Like with the advancement of technological tools in the construction industry like the building information modeling tools, planning tools, there have been plenty of remote options that have come in to picture and with which women are now taking the advantage of those kinds of rules which were not existent earlier. I mean a decade and a half I can tell especially in the, in the very.

Speaker B: I think, I think a lot of people have this, you know, I don't know if it's misconception is the right word but we tend to associate construction with being out there with the hard hat and the vest and the dirt and the big machinery and that sort of thing. So I love this insight into construction is beyond that and it really has, like you said, created this space where if you want to be remote but also still in the industry there's opportunities um, for you there men and women alike. Ah, so that's, that's great.

Speaker A: So especially I have written an article on um, women digital leadership roles. So there have been a situation where, I mean the, the situation especially in 2022 onwards, there have been lots of roles with respect to information management roles in the construction industry. M. So many women pitched into it. So nevertheless I don't say that you shouldn't venture into the project sites with hard hats. You need to have a mix of both of them. However, you cannot um, just base your judgment that a civil engineer means just a person who just goes to the project site. They face hardships, they face stereotypism in the project sites. They are being mocked, they are work. They have lots of pressure. Like every role has got a pressure. I feel there's no role call that has, that is quite latent, um, lazy and quite complacent. So challenge. There needs to be some sort of a pressure. So I don't call it as a pressure, rather a kind of push with which they can elevate themselves by learning new things. So, so coming out of that uh, comfortable zone and getting into a new learning zone. I mean every woman in the construction industry like um, unlike them, like similar to the other carriers, they have to take it with the right step and right stride. So having a good mentor, mentorship and, and attending or participating to various Women related uh, construction conferences like the wts. You have um, North American women in construction group. So getting involved in these kinds of um, um, various bodies, what happens is you would have a kind of predictable pathways or career roadmap you can set with interacting with the various individuals, women who is helmed in the construction roles at top level you can, you can see their lives, you can read about their biographies and then you can decide which would work for you, which will not work for you. Because every woman has got their own uh, context. So you cannot copy from every individual to become alike. Rather you can take some of the elements with which you can curate your own profile out of it. So if I have to tell my background, it so happened. I, I have worked, I've got an opportunity to work for diverse kinds of projects like as I mentioned, water infrastructure, rail, maritime, aviation. So I mean like I feel that one, I mean every woman in the construction industry needs to have some sort of a mentor or at least some sort of a guide who would help them. Like earlier there weren't many, but now you have got plenty of folks so you can, you can find them anywhere in the Internet. You can just. If you just try to reach them out to 100 people, at least 10 of them would respond definitely. And that's how you have to carve yourself. So I feel that inclusion would help solve the crisis. Like having uh, having diverse teams would help in improving the planning accuracy, having proper communication uh, so that the risks would be identified earlier. And as I mentioned women would excel in excellent interface coordination roles, risk anticipation and stakeholder, stakeholder alignment. Various kinds of digital roles also. So it's a, it's a. So these are some of the items or the aspects that they need to look into. However I was mentioning you, right, like having uh, the organizations slowly or gradually they are imbibing women also into topmost roles or the leadership roles. So this gives a kind of um, uh, a kind of a litmus test for them to plan properly and then get into a, a kind of a career roadmap set along with the various variables that they have with respect to family and education, career, whatever it is.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So I survived by becoming technically undeniable. But the industry shouldn't require that level of resilience just to stay. So I feel that ignoring women is equal to ignoring 50% of the potential talent. Yeah, yeah, ah, are like quite resilient. They have patience, they have kind of innovative mindset juggling and having multifaceted kind of roles that they can take into account and that's where they have to try to align their positives with the roles which require these kinds of attributes. And that would be win, win. Rather than just hitting for some other roles, um, which are like very difficult to attain with their current context. Like for instance, aiming for a project manager level in the beginning itself isn't a right. You need to take step by step. Mhm. Acquire the skills and then pitch into the level which you want to reach. So that's what I can say.

Speaker B: Yeah, beautifully said. Great guidance for those that are interested or even just curious about what that pathway looks like. So Dr. Malla, I know you and I could probably talk about this for several hours on this particular topic, but um, just to round out the conversation, I want you to put your fortune teller hat on and let us know what success would look like to you. I usually ask this question saying five to 10 years, but the reality is because things are evolving and changing so dramatically all quickly, uh, let's say what does success look like in about three to five years from now if we get this right? If the things that you are talking about, the solutions, the potential pathways, you know, gender agnostic, if all those things come together for this industry, what does that look like to you?

Speaker A: Well, uh, for the current uh, level of professionals, uh, who are just getting graduated or the fresh cohorts that would be coming into picture, I would ideally suggest have a structured, have a structured framework in their mindset. Getting to know awareness about the various construction management roles that are there in the construction industry. Getting to know, like if you go to a construction project, there's a project manager, planning engineer, subcontractor, like the contracts manager, risk manager, supply chain management, quantity surveyor. Understand each of these roles and then try to align which role that they think that they're going to be. They're going to give value proposition both to themselves as well as to the organization and then try to pick in the mentor, perfect mentor from their particular organization. If they are already joined in an organization, if they're not joined, if they're just coming out of the college still, they can get into the LinkedIn, have, get into the various network communities and have a proper mentorship being uh, fixated. And then industry would definitely acknowledge for the efforts that you try to bring in. When you have a mentor, they would advise you what are the aspects that need, they need to get perfect in their roles in the future roles, whatever it is. Like it could be a planner or it could be a contracts manager, it could be a pm. Follow whatever they Try to give it to you, imbibe them. So from five to 10 years, I mean like uh, a kind of a succession plan they need to have in their mind fixated. Because without a roadmap or without a destiny in their mind where they want to be after five years, it's difficult for them to navigate how they have to go for sudden, sudden kinds of um, like for instance if a cohort is uh, getting out, they need to understand what are some of the certifications that they need to also take, uh, or give the exam so that they get that competent skills and then at an experience level what are the next goals that they need to have. So it's always better to have a mentor. Then apart from this, they need to upkeep themselves with the various trade magazines and journals about the latest trends that are happening in the construction industry. Like for instance, AI is everywhere. You sleep, you get up, you sleep, you still have this AI. How it's trying to revolutionize the entire construction landscape now. So if that particular entity or the particular professional uh, wants to have planning as planner as a strategic role that they want to go for, they have to learn all the tools pertaining to the planning and how certain emerging tools which has AI has been enabled into them, how it's being utilized, those sign, those sort of learnings that they have to do self learned. So there are various uh, platforms like the Coursera, edX, Udemy, which they can thrive upon, get a feel about the particular learning of the tool or it could be a new subject and then they have to align their role with the industry. So education getting aligned with the industry is what the reality they need to, they have to keep in mind. So from my point of view like the planning or the scheduling, every generation has got their own tools which has been evolved over a period of time. So learning daily or having a mindset of growth, growth mindset, growth mindset doesn't stay complacent. Okay, I completed my doctoral degree, so I'm going to be complacent. No, I cannot. So I have to evolve with the existing emerging technology. So the generation also needs to imbibe the technologies. However, they need to be strong in their fundamentals of their domain knowledge. So domain knowledge still matters because a tool with a fool, um, a fool who is using a tool will still be a uh, fool if they don't

Speaker B: know how to use it.

Speaker A: Yes, enough to utilize it. So even the AI tools or the large language models that many of them use, that if you give a proper prompt or a question Then only it would give you the value proposed outcome that you would expect it. But if you give a question which is like random which has got no sort of follow up, you don't get a structured or a. Or a response that is having much essence to be bought out of it. So apart from that I also would would uh think that systemic changes are necessary especially having industry academia partnership standardizing some of the curriculum which is industry ready aspects like the digital construction industry like the building information modeling or planning related standardized curriculum. And also they need to have recognition of uh leadership roles. Means doesn't mean just a project manager as a leader, right? You have project controls uh roles also being considered as project leadership roles. So getting to know these kinds of awareness is very much important because many of the freshers that I observe, they come and ask me ma', am, how long does it take for me to become a project manager? Can I become with one year experience, two years experience. It's not the years of experience that need that you need to count in mind but you need to have the skill sets being developed right? So if a particular skill set requires 10,000 hours, you cannot shorten it and get it get those skill sets in just 500 hours. Realize that everything cannot be instant and everything cannot be shortcut. So that sort of patience, resilience. Um. Uh, my one of my colleague mentioned do not consider fail F A I L if you know the word fail, right?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Do not consider the fail as failure. Consider it as first attempt in learning.

Speaker B: Oh, very nice.

Speaker A: So that makes me think like every. They need to be some sort of effort driven. Driven uh, efforts needs to be put into. And if they fail that's a kind of a new learning that they have learned which is very much essential for them to move forward. That gives them a kind of a confidence also. Okay, I've learned something out of it so that sort of it. So then I also would uh. Advise them to get into involvement of doing volunteership like for the project Management Institute ASE wts. So it's not just doing a selfless uh activity in the kind in the roles like teaching, being as a speaker, sharing your knowledge or doing a group or team activity. You're going to learn and meet many amazing individuals which you would not get um if you are just meeting the known persons in your group. So it's always said like even me my, myself many of my breakthroughs happen through these sorts of networking. So my I'm telling openly I fixated my doctoral thesis topic from attending by attending one of The AAC webinar.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: I got my first job in North America by doing the networking in pmi. So most of the breakthroughs in one's career doesn't happen through non contacts, it happens through strangers. Uh, so whatever, uh, whatever work that one performs and gets networked, try to show or give a pitch of your work in a networking group of unknown individuals. That's where your potential brings into picture. So speaking, teaching, knowledge sharing and doing these volunteering activities would always add value not just to an individual's self satisfaction but through your uh, through their career and the other things is like they can just attend the conferences, workshops every time getting to know what exactly they wanted to be. They have to be always on toes and they have to go on war footing basis whenever an opportunity comes. This is my take.

Speaker B: I mean absolutely just a well rounded perspective on how we can potentially fill this gap, how the future might look for us if, if we can do all of the things that, or at least some of the things that Dr. Mala has, has put out there in terms of creating your pathway into this space. Um, Dr. Mala, that will do it for our conversation today. But if folks want to continue the conversation, can they connect with you anywhere?

Speaker A: Yes, definitely. I would be happy if um, if I can share the, my LinkedIn and my mail ID personal mail ID also I would be sharing it with you and I would appreciate if you can share with them in case, if they want to connect with me. I'm, I'm always available on LinkedIn and I always feel that um, if a woman in construction industry, in the, in the US construction industry, if I specifically speak, there are a lot of opportunities for them to get from the ground level to the top level if they channelize uh, through proper networking, having the right mentor, having the right tools. So this generation is really blessed to have all these which we didn't have it during our formative years.

Speaker B: Thank you to you for being part of laying that groundwork uh, in terms of having those opportunities and those, those channels to be able to come into this space. So again, very thankful for your time Dr. Mala. I will make sure all your connection points are within the post of this podcast. Uh, for those listening, if you're listening to this episode and you love it, let us know. Leave us a comment. Subscribe to the podcast for this episode and future episodes.

Speaker A: Dr.

Speaker B: Uh, Mala and I have been chatting about future plans to make this more of a series than just a one, one part episode. So I'm super excited for that as well. So you. You folks can also follow me on LinkedIn. I'll make sure that, uh, that is also in the. In the podcast notes. And, um, thank you so much for your time, Dr. Mala. And thank you to those that have joined us to listen to this episode. Until next time, take care. Mhm. It.