How to Thrive in Your First 90 Days as a PM

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the Everyday PM podcast. The podcast where we discuss project management principles for your everyday life. My name is Anne Campia and I'll be your host today. I am also the founder of the Everyday pm. And today we're tackling one of the most critical periods in any project manager's career. It's the first 90 days. Whether you're stepping into your first PM role or you're transitioning into a new organization, those initial three months can make or break your success. So I am thrilled to have Mukhtar Ghadiri joining us. Who is ranked the number one PM in Canada, is a PM career coach with a 67,000 plus LinkedIn network and helps companies hire PMs who actually deliver results. I feel like I should be yelling that introduction because it's just incredible. If anyone knows what separates PMs who thrive from those who struggle in Those crucial first 90 days, it's Muktar. So welcome to the podcast. Please take a brief moment to introduce yourself to our audience.

Speaker B: Oh, thank you. Thank you, Anna. I really appreciate that very warm introduction. I feel like I should be coming here more often.

Speaker A: I will be your hype woman for sure.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, hi everyone. I'm Muktar Kadiri and I am a PM career coach. Uh, So I help PMs anything in terms of their career. Uh, we particularly focus on helping PM land high paying PM roles. So 100 to 300k. And also when they get into those roles, how do they now thrive and succeed? So that's me in a nutshell. I've been in the PM space for, for a long time. I've worked in oil and gas, in real estate, in tech, in um, in healthcare as well. And I've, I've been a PM. I've led PMs, um, and I have led like, you know, departments and I've worked in over 20 countries. So that's, that's me in a nutshell.

Speaker A: You know, I'm gonna throw already a curveball question at you. What led you to, with all of that wealth of knowledge from your career spanning across different industries? I'm sure different experiences. What led you to where you're at now in terms of being a career coach for project managers?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I mean, that's a very good question. So, um, I guess, okay, maybe I can start with, with a story.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: So I, I, I went to, I went to Texas, uh, Tech University. So I've also, I lived in Texas for a while. Um, and when I started studying, I was studying electrical engineer. Electrical engineering and computer science. But, you know, for some reason I wasn't really getting it then. So I decided I'm going to switch to, you know, petroleum engineering. All right? And then by the time I graduated, I ended up with this mix of, you know, computer science, electrical engineering and petroleum engineering. And ah, this will, this will come in handy, you know, uh, at some point in the story. But anyway, so I had reached the end of my, my university, uh, time and I noticed that many of my peers were getting offers while we're in university. So some were getting like six to seven offers. I couldn't get an offer to save my life.

Speaker A: Oh, wow.

Speaker B: I graduated. You know, I was now like doing, you know, I was working at Blockbuster. For those of you who are who remember what Blogbuster I do. Like, I was doing like medial menial, uh, work and I, I couldn't quite get into, into corporate. And then, you know, uh, somebody advised me to just change the name of my resume. Uh, so I changed it from Mukhtar to Mark.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: Did that. I got a call.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And then I, you know, did an interview. They told me to come over to Houston. I, um, you know, for, for, for the second interview. And before I even. Because, you know, just for context, then I was living in Dallas, right. So I drove down to Houston for the interview. Before I got back to Dallas, they called me, said saying that I had gotten my offer, right. So I was like, okay, this is, this is interesting.

Speaker A: Yeah, this is interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What a use case.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I had to, you know, change my name. And you know, so I was now like Mark in, in the company. And whenever people will call me that, like, I would cringe, you know, because I felt like a part of me had to be suppressed.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Uh, to, to be called that. But, you know, I gradually transition people back to Muktar. Because I really love my name. My name means absolutely, you know, so. And I really love, I really love my name. My, my, my, my dad named me after his, his, one of his close friends. Um, but yeah, so, you know, really great job. I was grateful for that. Um, but one of the things that really stuck out to me then was like, okay, why was this so difficult for me to get a job? Right? Um, and then, you know, then I was in Texas. I started working in Texas. I got transferred over to the Middle East. Um, and it was amazing. Like, I was working on, you know, like, really amazing projects, cutting edge of technology. And I got promoted. I was working on projects. Before I knew it, before I knew what project management was? Um, and then, yeah, you know, I got promoted. I was leading. I was like, um, I was managing our entire Middle east and Africa region, so, you know, about 20 countries. Um, anyway, long story short, and then I got laid off. So when I got. I got laid off, and then I was in Dubai at that point in time. And when you get. Because my. My stay in the country was tied to my employment. Right? So when you're laid up, like, you have 30 days to pack up and leave. Right. Um, so, you know, it was me, my wife, my pregnant wife, my little kid, and we just had to pack up and. And leave. And then we moved to Canada. Right. So moving from the desert to Canada in. In February, in the middle of the winter. Right. Oh, gosh, what a. You know, what a change. But. But it came to Canada. I didn't know anybody and had to now start over again from the scratch, like, building my network again. And I was trying to get into the job market in Canada, um, and it was difficult. Yeah. And then again, somebody gave me that advice, why don't you change your name?

Speaker A: Oh, gosh, yeah.

Speaker B: But this time I refused. I'm like, I. Yeah, I can't. I can't do that. Like, hats off to people that can do that, but I'm not going to do that this time. So I struggled, learned about, uh, how to navigate the job market, how to build, um, my network from scratch. Now, eventually, I ended up landing not one, but two offers. And so I went from being jobless, needing to pay the bills and all that now, to, like, okay, what do I do? I need to decide between two offers. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, so.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker B: So I. So I think, like, that is a very. That background story is very central to why I'm doing what I'm doing right now. So it's my experience. And on top of that, like, I just really love teaching. So even when I was in corporate, like, I used to just. I enjoy, um. I enjoy, like, breaking things down, clarifying, and, you know, just making sure people see, you know, just edu. I'm an educator at heart.

Speaker A: Right, Absolutely.

Speaker B: So that's. That's, uh. I know that was a bit of a long story, but.

Speaker A: No, that's. Why. Not at all. Thank you for being so open and willing to share that story with us. I think that story in itself deserves its own podcast episode. That was really incredible. And. And I can hear the authenticity in the journey in terms of. I'm sure the amount of resilience and persistence that required you to kind of just keep your head in the game and make sure that you were staying true and authentic to yourself while still pursuing what your goals were. So all of that to say. Thank you for sharing that. I really do appreciate it. So let's, let's talk a little bit more about your project manager now. I like the transition from hearing about your journey, because will transition now into, you've got offers, you've accepted an offer, you're going to be a PM and, or you're going. You're already a PM and you're going to transition to a new organization. So Mukhtar, when a PM walks into a new role on day one, whether it's a transitional role or a, uh, entirely new project manager role for someone, uh, what are the two to three most critical things they should focus on in their first, uh, 30 days? We'll go 30, 60, 90. We'll do it like that. So in their first 30 days to set themselves up for success.

Speaker B: Yeah, I know, and I think that. So there are a couple of things I should mention. So I think it's nice to have that demarcation, you know, the demarcation 30, 60, 90. But, you know, like, in a lot of cases there's, you know, that will be blurred. It's not like you're really going to have that. Okay. Phase one, phase two and phase three. Right. And also it could depend on the context, you know, so just wanted to just put that caveat initially. But when you get in, uh, one of the things that I coach and I will do if I were in that situation is to just understand what success looks like. Like, that is your North Star. Right. And, you know, like, that is easier said than done. Right. Because even sometimes, um, the people, the key players don't even know what success looks like. So sometimes you have to sort of pull it out from them and articulate it back to them and, you know, sort of align. Uh. Right. So. So that in itself is a, is, is an endeavor, you know?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So. So you. But. But that is the first thing I want to use that you want to understand what success looks like. Now, how do you now do that? You now need to start meeting with the right people, the key players who will be able to, um, help you, you know, like, uh, what's the word now? Sort of give you the clues. Like it's kind of like you're on a.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: You're trying to piece together a puzzle. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So one of the very first people that you wanna, that you wanna meet, obviously is your. Is Your manager, your, you know, so, like, that is probably going to be the most important relationship in your. I mean, I think the, your relationship with your manager is probably the most important relationship in your life. One of the most. Because, yeah, your, that relationship affects your personal life. You have a toxic manager that bleeds into your personal life and, you know, everybody else is affected. So it's very important that that is

Speaker A: right, you know, 100%. Absolutely right.

Speaker B: So, so, so one of the first things that you want to identify key players. So your manager. What does success look like to your manager? And, and one thing that I should mention here is I think a lot of times when we have these conversations, we go at it a sort of dry, clinical, logical way, like, you know, what are your top challenges? Um, you know, what are your priorities? And a lot of times, like, people will be able to just mention things, you know, but you want to get to the heart of, like, what is your main pain and what is your main frustration? Because some people, like, you know, and you see this in a lot of companies, like, they have their goals that sound. Nice paper. But what is actually keeping them up at night is there's a bit of a discrepancy, right? So you want to really follow the emotion, so to speak. Like, what is it that's keeping them up at night that's frustrating them? That's, you know, top of mind. And that is very important. Right? And sometimes they're the same thing, but in many cases they're not. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So because when you understand that, you really understand where attention is, right? Because, you know, number one, you can use that to, I mean, you can use that to better communicate, right? Because, you know, what people are really, what people really care about. And you can, um, you can use that to persuade, um, but you, you can also use that to, to serve as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker B: You know, because at the end of the day, like, people have pain points. And I see the project manager role as a service, um, you know, is like way of service, basically. Right? So how can I make your life better? How can I make your, your work life better? And you know, it's, it's by identifying the pain points, the main frustrations, and what's keeping them up at night. That's how you can do that. So, you know, to, uh, answer your question, one of the first things that you want to do is that you want to go in there and understand what success looks like. And that begins by meeting with key players. Um, so I'm a big fan of one on ones. Um, you know, some one on ones. Your manager and also recurring one on ones. Right. So with your manager and then your manager can point you to the next person that you should, you should speak to and like that. Uh, you know, key stakeholders, you know, people above you, below you, lateral, you know, in the uh, in the org chart. Um, yeah, yeah. That would be what I would start working on in the first.

Speaker A: I was going to ask you because you said some. I love that. Um, in terms of the questions that you should be asking, sometimes they can feel very clinical or sterile. So you did say something around like uh, talking to your manager about what does good look like or something to that effect. Do you have any advice in terms of what types of questions would prompt that type of response from your manager?

Speaker B: Yeah, so there are several ways to do it. I mean obviously you want to ask the question in a way that's natural, uh, that you know, because at the end of the day like, you know, project management is really very. You're successful based on the quality of the relationships you build. Right, right. So you know, something to the effect you want to ask questions that elicit and I make them safe to, to, to tell you, uh, the truth about what's going on. Right. You know, and it could be. I, I tried this one time, you know, if you had a magic wand, like what would you want to do? You know, what would you want to be? Uh, and when I did that, actually I did that exercise in an interview at one point in time, like it was a panel interview and it was like a cathartic experience for many of them.

Speaker A: They were like, that's so fun. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So it was almost because it's like you give them a chance to just. All right. It's almost like you give them a chance to play and to be honest. Right, right. And that's like valuable because you know, if I had magic one, like this is what I would, I would want to go away, you know, so that would be one. But you know, I'm just going to stress that you want to make sure that say it in an authentic way and m not like, you know, you just read it on chat GPT and, and you are. Yeah, so, so that could be one. Or you know, what would you say is really top of mind for you right now? What's keeping you up at night?

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: Ah, what are your main frustrations? Um, and you know, also the classical what are your top priorities? And then I think also, um, the follow up questions are important because a lot of Times some people will just tell you like the first thing might not necessarily be what it actually is. You need to sort of drill down. Right. And one thing that I, that I like to tell people is you want to go in there like you want to, you want to go in there, you want to put on the heart of a consultant, right? So you're going in there, your, your experience, you have the skills and experience. So you're going in there almost like a discovery, it's a fact finding mission and you're asking follow up questions and you're trying to really get to the heart of it. Right. So I hope that answers your question.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That was super helpful. So we've, we've uh, connected with our boss. We've had this really, these really great meaningful conversations. You've spoken with authenticity and asking the questions to get your manager or leader to kind of divulge what, what essentially they're looking for and what good looks like. So here we are a few weeks into the role, I won't say 60 days, since we don't necessarily want a timestamp to the concret a degree of the day. So um, you've built these relationships, uh, you're trying to build credibility at this point in your role, ah, outside of your manager being the one to identify who you should be meeting with and, or you know, who really matters in that circle for you as a pm. Um, what's your framework for doing that? What's your framework for identifying who matters most and essentially how to build that trust quickly without coming across as, you know, unauthentic, inauthentic, uh, or even self serving. Uh, because early on people still don't really know you. Right. So that could probably be the case too. This person, all they want to do is meet with me and try to get ahead sort of scenario. So how do you kind of break that barrier?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's a good one. And um, there's one interested story that I'm going to share. Um, and I think it sort of speaks to this point. So there was this project that I was, I was leading. Um, so basically prior to this I had just, I was on the bench. So they caught me from, from, from a project because the client wanted to cut costs and there was somebody who was more experienced on the project. So I was on the bench. So now, um, and you know, for those of you that have worked in consulting, when you're on the bench, you know your, the time is, time is ticking, right. So you know, you have to Be, you have to be useful. And I was really anxious and just waiting for this next project. So I got assigned to this next project and you know, it was clear, all right, this is the main stakeholder. The person was called the contract holder. All right, so this is your, you know, so I thought this was my main sponsor. So I went and I met with him. Okay. And he laid out the plan. Okay, you should go talk to these people. And I started to just, you know, move forward and execute. Yeah, right. Uh, and you know, I wanted to really prove myself and all of that. Now then I met with, I met with the sticker. So, uh, my company is the client and they are. Sorry, my, my company is a consultant and they are the client. Right, got it. So I met with somebody on the client side who was not the main sponsor. Um, and then like, it was such an unexpected, like I just thought I was going there to meet another stakeholder. And what that meeting ended up being like for, like I've never been, I've never been sort of yelled at or like, you know, taking a verbal beating, um, incorporate. Like this was the first time and of course like this was overseas as well. So you know, there are different norms and.

Speaker A: Sure. Yeah.

Speaker B: And like it was a 30 minute meeting of just me being like, I guess getting a beating.

Speaker A: Oh, no.

Speaker B: And then I left. And so what I understood from that was that she, uh, was actually the power holder. Right. When I looked at the org chart, like the other person and uh, like that person seemed like he was in charge, but she was actually the person in charge. So one of the things that you want to do is that you can look at the org chart, but you want to make sure that you actually try to listen and look for who really has power. Right. Because it's not necessarily, it doesn't always translate. Right. So, so now with this project, I was already like, I started out, I had to like rebuild relationship and just reassess my whole assessment of the whole project. Right. Uh, so I started like having regular one on ones without what's really success. What does success look like for you? Who do you think important people I need to, you know, I need to meet with. I met all of them, understood them. Like I'm, I'm taking notes, gathering what's important to them, what, you know, what do they want to see, um, in order for them to consider this project successful. So I gathered all of that and I'm always reporting back to her, like, reporting back to her, like, this is what I'm gaining this is what I'm seeing, identifying themes and all of that. Long story short, I ended up winning her over. And like that, that was, you know, you know, there are these very strong personalities and it's usually just easier to just win them over. So when she was, when she was, when we're on opposite sides, like, it was such a huge obstacle. But when she was on my side, it was amazing. Like, you know, she was like a force for me and she ended up being a mentor. And because of that, like the project was so successful, my company won like back to back multimillion dollar contracts and that like served my career, you know. So it was just, it was just a virtual cycle from there. Like, you know, easier to just win her over. Right. So anyway, long story short, like when you go in, you want to make sure that you really understand, you know, the power dynamics, the politics and all of that. And not to go in there and play dirty, but just to understand how to sort of navigate.

Speaker A: Right, right. It's, it's interesting. Right, because folks can. And I didn't get this out of your story. I'm just thinking based on your story and my experiences here is that stakeholders can really suss out inauthentic and disingenuous, um, conversations and people. And uh, as much as you might think that it's not coming across, maybe you're trying to mask that behind your intentions. Um, we can figure it out, I feel like. So I. And again, by no means is this a result, uh, this comment a result of the so story you just shared. I'm just thinking in terms of folks who are really trying to come across as authentic and genuine in your intentions, make sure they really are your intentions. Right. That you're not trying to, um, take from others and, or misinterpreting, uh, what, what your goals are there. Uh, but because I think that that can come across pretty quickly, um, in the case of yours, it's just. You just, it sounds like you just didn't know which stakeholder was the one really with the power and the influence and it ended up being somebody else.

Speaker B: Right, right. No, for sure. And just to, to that point of authenticity, I think it's a very important point. Like you want to, yeah. You don't want to be, you don't want to come across as, uh, somebody with ulterior motives. And it's easy for people to just smell that, uh, and snip that out. So I, I think what really helps is again, just back to this mentality of like, how can I be of service. Yeah, you know, it's, you know, and then it's like starting with their main pain, points of frustration, you know, And I think that's why I really enjoy this, uh, this profession is because, like, you know, when. When I'm of. Of service, it's very fulfilling, you know, because people have this frustration. So. So I think when I approach it like that, like, they have these problems, they have these frustrations. How can I just help them? And I think that comes across like, it's almost like it's your problem, and I want to see how I can help.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: M. And I think, like, that sort of takes care of the, um, you know, do I have ulterior motives? And I think, you know, this is also a mistake that I see people because I think some PMs approach to the job as, okay, this is. It's more like they're coming as like a commander.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or like, you know, like, I am, uh, this is my thing, and I want to get this to the end. Right. So, you know, I think you can approach it like that, but you can also approach it like, all right, you know, this is our thing, and we have these problems. How can I help you people get it to the end? And I think, you know, it might be a subtle difference in mindset, but I think it has very different outcomes.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Just that question alone, how can I help you? Signals you're there for supporting other roles, supporting the. The project itself. Uh, yeah, that's. That's really very insightful. Thank you, Mukhtar. Um, so let's go along this, this path now. We're. We're approaching our 90 days. I'm going to do that in quotes because obviously every PM is different. You might get there a little bit later, you might get there a little bit sooner. So you've been at this company in this role for a little bit. Uh, what should a successful project manager have accomplished to prove they can deliver? And how would you define and communicate that? Kind of like, hey, I've. I've. I've got some wins under my belt at this point in a way that feels like you're building momentum for the future and less of what we were just talking about in terms of that, you know, your intentions were nefarious in a different way. But, uh, how do you define that? How do you communicate those and show that you are delivering results?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think. So I think this is going to matter, you know, on a. On a case by case basis. But one thing that I would say Is as you're going through your first 90 days, you know, you are, you're, you're basically doing a listening tour and you're, you're listening actively for, you know, things that are coming up again and again. Right. So I, you know, you probably have like this bank of, you know, notes, uh, that you've taken and things that are coming up, um, and you. Identifying themes and all of that. So one thing that you want to do is that you want to look for what I call low lift, high impact wins.

Speaker A: Great.

Speaker B: Right. So, so these are things that you know, because one of the key things to your, to your question of how do you build momentum? Like people want to see quick wins. Right. And it's not just quick wins. It's not just, you know, um, just being busy, but it's like things that actually maybe move the needle. The needle. Um, so low lift, high impact wins. And you know, there, there are several. And it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be, um, really monumental. So I, um, and I can share this with you with your listeners. Like, I have a library, uh, of different types of. So they are like about six types. Um, you have insight wins, visibility wins.

Speaker A: Oh yeah.

Speaker B: Relationship, um, wins, system wins, influence wins, and execution wins. And maybe I can just mention a couple. Sure. For insight wins, um, you can create maybe a snapshot of what we know versus what we don't know. So as you know, because sometimes you might be, you might burst into a project where there's just a lot of. It's, it's a big mess. It's a, you know, and you, you're sort of trying to help them figure things out. So as you're doing that, it's like, okay, this is what we know versus this is what we don't know. Even just that simple. That simple. It could be like a one page document. Like that goes a long way, you know, because people, people feel like, okay, at least, you know, things are beginning to make sense.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and then you can also, okay, this is what we know, this is what we don't know. Okay. What do we need to prioritize that right now? So maybe in the world we don't know. Let's take this for the next two weeks and let's explore like, so even like that is a very, very, um, quick win that you can do, right?

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: That you can produce. Um, another thing is maybe just identifying recurring friction problems. Like, you know, you've been speaking and you're hearing, okay, this coming up again and again. And again.

Speaker A: Mm.

Speaker B: You know, a lot of times people haven't, the organization hasn't had the opportunity or the time for somebody to actually go around and sort of do that listening and to just so you coming in, you're actually doing a service like you are, you're sort of listening to everybody and identifying themes like in a lot of cases that has never been done before. Right. So that is, these are like insights that you can do. Um, another thing is, another thing is maybe just naming risks that nobody has quite put to words. So, you know, reading between the lines. So these are things I, you know, and there are many more and you know, we can share this. Um, visibility wins. Maybe. Um, sorry, I'm just reading from the list right now.

Speaker A: You're good.

Speaker B: Yeah. So visibility could be sending like, you know, updates, you know, like status updates in a way that, that's easy to understand because, ah, in a lot of cases leadership, uh, doesn't have visibility into what's really going on. So being able to just produce something in a way that makes sense to leadership and also to the people doing the work like that, that's an example of a visibility win. You uh, also have relationship wins where it's like, um, you know, just making sure that you meet with one on ones regularly with people. Like I mentioned, um, uh, system wins. Establishing like decision logs for example. Because a lot of times people make decisions that nobody knows, you know, so that could be an example or just building a high level timeline. Like that's, you know, that's maybe what I would call a system with. And you know, on and on. And so I have a library of like about maybe 60 wins. And you know, it's just, it's not for you to go through every one of them, but it's to, to say, okay, actually this is something that I can. Yeah, because a lot of times we are focused on, oh, what's the. More like I want to achieve this milestone. But there are many things that you can do that would actually create momentum and a lot of small wins like that would really, number one, establish your credibility. Um, and then it will also create momentum for you to, you know, to, to lead the project to the end.

Speaker A: Um, extremely thought provoking and I think super helpful, especially for project managers who are likely just starting in their careers in terms of, okay, I started this role, what do I do now? And if they're not getting that kind of level of detail from either their leader or the stakeholders surrounding them, this framework itself that you just shared is very, very Insightful and very helpful for those who are just trying to figure out where those success factors can be drawn from. So that was great. Thank you, Mukhtar. It's like, as you're saying them, I'm thinking, and maybe you feel the same way. I love what we do as project managers. All the things that you listed there in terms of these are low hanging fruit, these are things that you can, can come in. These are things that probably an organization has thought about but simply hasn't had the person in house with the right mindset and the skill set to be able to do that for the organization. So it's so cool what we do because we go in there and we do all these things and they think we're like wizards or something because we can go in there and do all this cleanup and accomplish all these things very quickly. So that was really, really nice. I love that list. It was perfect. Thank you.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, and, and as you, as you're saying that one thing, I just remember one time when I was brought into a project, um, and a lot of times we don't realize that what we do, that we're actually what we do, is not something that many people are good at, right? And, and, and I would just give you an example. So I was in this project with this guy who was like a staff engineer, so he's like a senior engineer, and just walked up like, you know, like New York Times, cnn, like, you know, he's, uh, a, he's a pretty senior engineer. And in this project, I was just asking questions like, okay, um, you know, somebody mentioned like, when do you think that we'll be able to have that done? You know, and okay, uh, do you have what you need? You know, like, stuff like that. And I think that question was coming up again and again, and this engineer was like, after, after the meeting, he came to me one on one, he was like, thank you so much. It's been a while that I've seen somebody, um, seen somebody display that skill, right? I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, you know, because basically, like those questions that just come up naturally, you are bringing structure to this very, very complex thing. Like, when do you think. Simple question like, when do you think that will be done? It forces people to, like, assess, and you're now given a bit of clarity and structure to this big thing, you know, that, that, that, that, you know, so, so I was just, I just thought I was pretty interesting. Like, I think we take for granted a lot of things that we do like, there are some of these things that are ingrained in us, like, you know, that discipline, uh, to execute and to be able to, you know, ask questions that many people are not thinking about and all of that, and to. To identify dependencies and connections here and there. I think, like, this is something that we m. Do naturally that we might overlook, but it's a very fundamental and important skill to. To. To an organization. Yeah.

Speaker A: What a great story and what a great way to wrap up our conversation today. I feel like, Mukhtar, you laid out the playbook for project managers who are either stepping into the role for the first time or transitioning to a new organization. I myself have started a new role, so this has been helpful for me, too, in terms of transitioning into a, uh, new industry. So I'm going to take some of the notes from. From what we just discussed today, selfishly, and use them for myself. But folks that are listening, I hope you do, too. So, Mukhtar M. If folks want to continue the conversation with you, where can they find you? Online?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, um, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I usually share free, free advice. Um, and, um. Yeah, yeah, so that. I think that's. That's the best way to. To do that. You just connect with me on LinkedIn. And, yeah, every day I share free advice. Apart from Sunday.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Huge network. I. I'm incredibly grateful to you, uh, for, uh, sharing with our audience everything that you know and being willing to continue the conversation with them. It's truly been an honor having you on the podcast. So, uh, for folks that are listening, you can subscribe to the podcast on any of the podcasting platforms. Let us know what you thought of this episode. I would love to have Mukhtar back, so make sure you're telling us that we want him back for a conversation. Um, and for those folks that want to follow me, I'm also on LinkedIn and Campia. And thank you all for joining us for this installment of the Everyday PM podcast. And until next time, take care.