Why SaaS Copy Fails for B2B Founders to Unlock Growth using Strategic Messaging with Chris Silvestri

Speaker A: The pain of staying was becoming bigger than risk taking of jumping on something new. I started working small projects on Upwork. That's when I realized it can actually be possible. And it's a lifestyle that I enjoy as well. Some people are more predisposed to be founders. Maybe it's the environment or their social groups.

Speaker B: Was that uh, a light bulb defying moment or was that more of a process? How did it work for you?

Speaker A: Oh, I still remember it actually.

Speaker B: So it was a. Chris Silvestri is a founder and conversion copywriter at Conversion Alchemy where he helps SaaS teams turn confusing messaging into clear communication that boosts sales. Using psychology, UX and strategy to scale with confidence.

Speaker A: I've always been of the idea of having a growth, uh, mindset and so I think you can pretty much learn anything. If this doesn't work, I can still go back and find another job as a software engineer.

Speaker B: What about you personally? What's next for you?

Speaker A: For now, I've actually been a lot into exploring.

Speaker B: Hello everybody. Welcome back to Founders Stories. I think so far if they had a quick headcount on the show, we've had uh, founders, we've had investors, we've had exited founders, we've had all sorts of manner of people. But I can say with some confidence that something we've never had on Founders Story is a, and I have to get this right, a conversion Alchemist. So if you're wondering what the hell I'm going on about. No, I didn't have to much to drink with breakfast. You're about to find out. Uh, we uh, have Chris here today from Conversion Alchemy. He is the co founder and conversion alchemist at Conversion Alchemy. Chris, Chris Silvestri, welcome to Founders Stories.

Speaker A: Hey Donna, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker B: Thank you for traveling across as well to meet me in person. I think this is going to be a good session. In fact, I know it's going to be a good session. Chris, I know quite a bit about you after doing some research and I can't wait to get into the nitty gritty. So very quickly before we get into the fun stuff, tell us about Conversion Alchemy. Tell us what a conversion alchemist is and the problems that you guys are solving.

Speaker A: Yeah, so I've always been fascinated by this concept, the idea of alchemy, right. Turning like raw materials into gold. And so I coined the term conversion alchemist basically to explain how I turn raw research data from customers, market and uh, competitors into actual copy that converts for my Clients which are mostly B2B SaaS companies. And uh, yeah, I do it through a combination, uh, of research, copywriting, user experience, design, and a lot of psychology, behavioral psychology that I'm pretty a big nerd about.

Speaker B: So the output is copy. Right. So it's quite simple. It's not as complicated as it might sound. And I think through our conversations, you know, we share our ICP. I currently also, uh, work in B2B SaaS companies, but we're fixing different problems. But actually without what you do, I would find what I do very difficult because I'm helping people to increase their bottom line, create a more predictable sales process. Without good marketing, that is n impossible. And without good copy, you can't have good marketing either. So you are really fixing a, uh, problem that I don't know. You tell me if I'm wrong. But I would imagine not that many people know how much of a problem they have with what they're putting out there in their brand. Do you have any view on that?

Speaker A: A lot of client, potential clients that reach out, they actually suspect they have a problem with copy. But a lot of the times that we then dive deeper and we, uh, have the first couple of sessions, we actually find that it's a lot of strategic problems before even the copy. Because if you don't have the foundations, which is proper research and understanding of your internal perspective, customers and your market, and then if you're not able to turn that into positioning strategy, messaging strategy, then also the copies, it gets harder to write properly and in a way that converts and resonates.

Speaker B: So do you work with kind of marketing agencies as well to form part of that team that delivers that brand positioning strategy?

Speaker A: I work with a couple of, not strictly marketing agencies, but m. Some of my partners are usually either branding design agencies or software development agencies or SEO agencies or any kind of agency that does, uh, a service that complements what I do for B2B SaaS companies.

Speaker B: Yeah. And what are the key kind of flaws that you find when people try and go it alone with things like this?

Speaker A: So I would probably say the first one is, um, a lot of companies try to pitch right away what they do. For example on their homepage, they start saying, we are, uh, I don't know, project management solution for xyz. When in reality the most effective and powerful thing that you can do, probably the 8020 you can do for when it comes to copy that converts, I think is matching what I call the conversation that people already have in their heads when they land on your Website, because if you think about it, they already have a conversation in their heads, but also with discussions that they had with their teams or partners. Now I will also suggest that there's also an additional conversation that they are having with LLMs with AI when they search for potential solutions and products. And so there's this whole super complex environment that you kind of have to solve and understand for uh, to actually hook prospects when they land on your marketing asset or, uh, website.

Speaker B: I'd say you're absolutely right. I'd say 80%. And not just websites that a whole library of sales assets, 80% of them start with something like we are or we specialize in or something like that. To everyone that's listening to this, if your own assets start with that, you should reach out to Chris, because I, you know, the few clients that I'm, I'm working with at the moment where, you know, marketing is one of the deliverables and we're doing rebrands for. It's really something that I've gotten into is like the power of that kind of first impression and trying to mimic the thought, thought process of the person that uh, is visiting or reading that asset is something that I don't think many companies, if they're really honest, have really, have really gotten into. So how have you managed to grow the business with such lack of awareness around these pain points?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's, it's probably selling the thing that they most want, which is the copy, and then diving in and finding out what, what actually, what actually needs to happen. And then, but uh, it's actually like when we follow the process and we start diving into the research, we start speaking with customers and I share the interview recordings and transcripts, they actually realized how important all this work is and how revealing it actually is of what they need to do.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'm in exactly the same boat. I have to go in with. I'm going to make you more money. And then once I can get, once I can get around the curtain, then we start to fix the actual problems, which are, uh, the lack of revenue usually is just a symptom, you know, of, of, of not doing the right things. And so I completely resonate with that. And, and Chris, this sounds like something that would keep most people very, very busy for a good 50 hours a week. However, uh, you manage to fit a whole load of other stuff in, don't you? So I know that I, I actually feel quite, quite nervous today interviewing you because you are a seasoned podcaster, uh, podcast host Sorry, Much more so than myself. And you do a whole load of other stuff as well. So what does the world of Chris look like?

Speaker A: So, I mean, I have a podcast. I've been on 43 episodes actually. Last one came out today. Check it out.

Speaker B: You can use my podcast to plug yours. It's totally fine.

Speaker A: Yeah, the podcast is all about message. Like, it's called Message Market Fit Podcast. So it's all about messaging, um, and copywriting. I have a newsletter that's also been going on for two years now. And yeah, I mean, I try to post content daily on LinkedIn. So the whole personal branding thing is a very active, active project as well for me. So. Yeah, but it's also useful, I think both together with the podcast is very useful for me, I think, to think better create better content ip, uh, better ideas that I can actually share and reuse for content also for my clients projects.

Speaker B: And a great way to sell what you do as well because they assume that what you put out is pretty decent and therefore people will want to replicate that in their own messaging, their own branding, the way that they distribute their content, etc. So if they see you doing it, well, it's a bit like the whole hairdresser analogy thing, isn't it? If someone's. You walk into a salon, someone's got decent hair, you think, actually, I don't mind you chopping at me, so same kind of thing. And in all seriousness, I know, I know our jokes, but it's really important that I think if this is triggering anybody, which I'm sure that it is, because I think we all know that we've been historically quite bad at, uh, at that whole, like, this is what we do, this is the solution, like pitch slapping people through our sales assets. If you know you're guilty of that, a, you're not alone, don't be ashamed, do something about it. And I think there's a real kind of toe in the water there would be to look at some of the stuff that you're putting out, whether it be the podcast or the newsletter, understand a little bit more. Because we've only got limited time today. I could listen to it forever, but I think understand a little bit more about what it is that you're doing and then maybe reach out to get some sort of discovery.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Because, uh, in everything that I put out, I try to be as practical as possible. Yeah. So I can give you like, how tos, maybe step by step guides, but I think some of the most important things that I share are also some mindset shifts. I think that once you understand them, you start looking at things differently and then it kind of opens up an entire new world. Maybe it's a different resource that I share or a different framework.

Speaker B: In terms of your background then and what led you into having this business? It's gotta be software development or marketing, which one or bear? Both.

Speaker A: It's software developer, but very different from the actual software development that people talk about in SaaS. So I was, uh, I've been a software engineer for 10 years in industrial automation. So imagine automatic assembly machines, kind of like robots in factories that assemble components. And in my area where I'm from in Italy, it's all about the biomedical industry. And so we used to manufacture machines that assembled components like plastic bags or connectors that ended up in hospitals. Right? Yeah. So I was a software engineer, which means basically my kind of the programming that I was doing was very much logical, very sequential. Um, I needed to respect timings, I needed to work with um, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers. So it's very like hands on as well. It wasn't um, in the cloud. And uh, so I used to travel a lot. Used to be in workshops on the machines actually with the laptop, with my whole like, um, super sanitized suit in white rooms. And um, yeah, that actually taught me a lot about putting myself in other people's shoes though that I actually understood in hindsight because I also used to design the human machine interfaces or touchscreen displays that the operators actually used to control those machines. So there was a lot of usability involved that at first when I switched into marketing, I didn't actually connect the

Speaker B: dots, but this does. Yeah, yeah, absolutely brilliant. So um, you were in Italy then. So how long ago was that?

Speaker A: I moved to the UK in 2018, so that was basically.

Speaker B: Okay, so not that long.

Speaker A: 17 years. No, no. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Okay, cool. So talk to us about your previous life then, if you will. Going to assume. I don't like to make too many assumptions on this podcast because, you know, founders have been very naughty and have thrown me off all different directions. But I'm going to assume that you were uh, pretty good at school, that you were, uh, you mean you could write and that you were very literate. I could be completely wrong.

Speaker A: I mean I was probably not great, but I've always been like 00:10. I was probably seven. And uh, I've always tried to do the best I could without actually putting a ton of effort because I was always like on assignments. That was only last day. Uh, between other things. But yeah, I've always tried to do the best with like maximizing enjoyment for other things that I was doing at the same time.

Speaker B: So you have always been a multitasker, right? So currently you've got this business, you've got the podcast, you've got the newsletter, you've got all sorts of things going on outside of work as well. That's always been the case as a. So that's how, how you've basically grown up. I don't usually talk too much about kind of hobbies and interests and things like that, but yours are very interesting. So let's go with the things that you like to do outside of what was school then and work, because I think some of them have continued. Right. The things that you did as a kid, you're still doing. So talk to us about those because there's some really interesting ones in there.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Actually, it's interesting that you make me think about the multitasking because I never actually thought about it how it was before and now. But yeah, Since I was 11 years old, I played basketball, I played drums, I had a band up, uh, till I moved to the UK basically. And we tried to do it almost like semi professional, professional level, even with the full time job, which was a bit of a nightmare. And then things, I mean, I'm big into movies, playing video games, working out every day, um, big into routine and philosophy. So a lot of variegated stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you love tattoos?

Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah, tattoos mostly. Probably because of the music culture that I was immersed in, so punk rock and uh, and some metal as well. So all of the, most of my tattoos are around like music lyrics or some memories that I wanted to encapsulate with an image.

Speaker B: The reason I'm really digging into this is because I think we're in a time that it's kind of believed that if you want to be successful you have to sacrifice so much. You have to sacrifice time, hobbies, family, you have to look maybe a certain way. And I just think that your story will be a, uh, real tonic to people who are kind of getting pushed down that path. Um, what's your kind of your, your advice there? You know, how, how have you lived your life and, and, and still managed to run a successful business?

Speaker A: So. So one thing that I remember from my old job was one kind of boundary that I always set myself, which was when it comes to tattoos, I like tattoos. I like, I started getting them when I was 19 and so the thing that I said it was I'm not going to start with the areas of my body that are hidden with clothes. I'm going to start from the forearms, the most visible parts of my body. So that once I'm in like they hire me at a job, even with the tattoos, then after that like everything else is going to be just easier if I want more tattoos. Right. So if they accept me there for the way that I am, then everything else is just going to be like downhill basically if I want to get more tattoos. And uh, it was the same. It's the same thing I think with uh, my routine and habits, with the working out. What I try to do is always not schedule my routine and habits around work, but doing the opposite. I schedule my routine and habits first and then I schedule work around those. And so I think yeah, kind of this idea of maybe setting boundaries.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right from the get go. And then. Yeah. And knowing what you want as well matters.

Speaker B: Definitely. And it's easier said than done. Definitely. Because you know, if a client needs something or you've got a big pitch going on and you've got to get your head down and that, that is, that is the case. But I do think is that kind of whole atomic habits thing is that if that's your non negotiable and really kind of thinking about what those are as well. Because sometimes you have lots and lots of things going on and you have to work out what are your absol. Non negotiables. I'm with you kind of fitness training. You know, it is a non negotiable for me but in order to make sure that I get it done every day, I've got to do it at 6 o' clock in the morning, otherwise it might um, it might have to slip. So I think if you want something and you've got that non negotiable, the way to test if it's non negotiable is how hard or how many mountains will you move to actually get to the gym that day or to see your family or to play basketball or whatever. You just said that you were uh, kind of semi professional. Is that drums or basketball?

Speaker A: Uh, drums.

Speaker B: Okay. Do you still play drums now?

Speaker A: I do a couple of shows every, every once in a while just replacing the drummer for a band of friends. But uh, so far it's mostly been, it's not been the priority and also a bit of a logistical nightmare with the fact that drums, you need to have a uh, card. Can you carry your drums around? You need to have a place like

Speaker B: a one man band thing going.

Speaker A: So for now it's not. It's not our priority. But I would like probably at some point to go back to doing it.

Speaker B: Yeah. So a good example of that thing that kind of sit on the peripheral or something that you like to do, but you're not going to miss an important business meeting over it.

Speaker A: I went rehearsing on Sunday because we have a show in two weeks in Dover and my hands are basically destroyed because you can see that I basically haven't played in months. And so as soon as you start.

Speaker B: Yeah, amazing. What were your parents like? What were you. What your family like? They're musical, so my dad.

Speaker A: Yeah, my dad was almost basically a professional M musician in Italy up until the 80s. He's always been into music. Um, 70s rock, uh, rolling Stones and all that stuff. Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, which is also the music that I started to play when I was 11. And uh. And he wrote songs for one of the biggest rock musicians in Italy as well. And. And so, yeah, he kind of infused in us, in me and. Because I have a twin brother as well, so. So infused in both of us that the music tradition. My mom, uh, has always been, um. Like, I had an office job. She's actually just retired, which I'm super happy for her. Uh. But yeah, it was kind of a very, um, artistic. There was this idea of always like, you can have a dream and you can actually pursue it. I think you don't have to settle for the status quo or whatever happens. Even my mom, if she had an office job, she's always been great, I think, at taking her time to do her own thing. She was, um. She still is one of the founders of one, uh, of the few female biker clubs in Italy.

Speaker B: Wow, you've got cool parents.

Speaker A: And so, yeah, yeah, I think they. They helped a lot with this kind of mindset, I think, that I carry.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's definitely true. I mean, obviously you take your own credit as well. These are people that are very successful that have come from not great beginnings and never really had that support network. But I think it's very obvious that you've taken all of the good bits and absolutely used them to help you. And probably part of the reason why you are pretty easygoing now and happy to have a. It seems to me like you're somebody who wants to make the most of their time on the planet and not be too bogged down with things and just kind of. And I think that can really help in business. Do you think that as well yeah, for sure.

Speaker A: It's all positive mindset that in a way you carry into your projects, into the conversations with clients. Like, for example, I just had, uh, one of the clients that I just signed, he was on my newsletter for a couple of three, four months. And you can see when we have conversations, like, one of the things that he told me was, I love the way that you think your approach to things. And I think it's all that mindset that kind of propagates in everything that you produce and you create as a founder or as a content creator, you carry it with you. The themes that you talk about. I talk about music or talk about movies in my newsletters, even. So you kind of. I think you attract the people that resonate with you. The m. The more you actually are able to convey your foundations, your roots in the work that you do.

Speaker B: It's one of the reasons we do this podcast as well, because I think often people just get defined by the product that they're building today. And it's been really interesting to kind of dig into them as a person and their stories and. And the things that actually really do make them tick and their callings in life or whatever. Um, and that's what people really then hook onto. And once you get to know that person and you do find areas in which you resonate, someone else might be into tattoos or music or basketball or whatever, that could turn into a really good deal for you in the end. But the reason why they first were warm to you is because you had similar interests. I'd urge everyone to be a bit more like Chris and just to show yourself a little bit more and your vulnerabilities, um, and talk about the things that are important to you. I didn't know you had a twin, because we'd not touched on that before. What. What's he like? Are you. Are you carbon copies or Total opposite?

Speaker A: Very similar. In, uh, like sometimes we literally already, like, we know what the other one is about to say before. Oh, really?

Speaker B: That. That happens, does it? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: But I think that's mostly because we've basically done a lot of things together. We, apart from the first, I think eight years in school. Then we were in last years of high school together. Then we worked at the company, the, um, manufacturing company together for 10 years. Then we played basketball together. We played music in the same band. We moved together from Italy to the uk. So that is basically an imprinting that, I think.

Speaker B: Oh, so he's here too?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, he lives in Bournemouth now. Uh, we used to live in Winchester together now. He bought a house in Bournemouth. So it's the first time that we are apart for like 45 minute drive. But yeah, very similar. But I would say still as far as character, I think there are some differences that if you, once you start getting to know us, you, you realize what the differences are.

Speaker B: Yeah. It's so cool though and so sweet that you've kind of stayed together and that you both now moved over together.

Speaker A: I think it's always been a very good motivating partner. Like we've always pushed each other even to leave the old job together. Like he does more uh, link building SEO and I've been doing copywriting. So we've always pushed each other to kind of. And challenged each other.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's uh, great to always have that teammate, isn't it? Someone there to support you. It can be a husband, a wife, a brother, you know, somebody that is, you just know that they're like, um, they're non negotiable. They're there all of the time. They're a constant and they're all of the time. I think it's a really important thing to have and it's something that a lot of founders have actually attributed some of their, not necessarily their success, but just their sanity. So having somebody as a bit of a sounding board that they know they could rely on. So I'm interested to know a little bit about the journey between. So you've had a job, you seem that was obviously in Italy and at some point you've made the jump to being a founder, uh, and a business owner. And this is always something I'm quite interested in is like was that a light bulb defying moment, uh, like um, you know, in the middle of the night or was that more of a process? Is it always something that you, you knew that it was kind of niggling at you. How did it work for you?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I still remember it actually. So it was kind of a gradual thing when. And it was all born mostly from the fact that whenever I, we wanted to tour with the band, I needed to ask for time off like three, four months in advance because my company used to plan trips way before they happened. And so that started kind of me looking for okay, what can I do? And I started looking online for how to make money online, usual stuff. And back then it was a lot of crappy keyword stuffing. SEO. There was a lot of SEO tools, scammy stuff. And then I stumbled on copywriting. So I started pursuing it. But I Wasn't super convinced until a very vivid memory that I have was when I was in Iran. So I think it was 2015, I think, in Iran and this island in the middle of nowhere, working with these machines. And for some reason there was like, uh, we had a fight. I had a fight with the team member or the boss of the company. I don't remember. But that was the moment that told me, like, okay, I've had enough of this. Like, I don't, I don't want to, like, be controlled by someone also, because maybe I felt kind of, um, isolated, like in the middle of nowhere, not being able to go back home unless I went through a myriad of, uh, bureaucracy and discussions that I didn't want to have. And that was probably the moment that I said, okay, now I'm gonna take this seriously. I'm gonna try to, to make this thing that I'm doing work.

Speaker B: So somebody kind of prodded that and, and, and highlighted that, that tea, I think if we are, um, really interesting comment was made, um, by a guest recently where he said he thought there's a business in everybody. And it really stuck with me, um, because it's an opinion that I don't think everyone will share. I think some people think that founders are wired very differently and the rest of the population are wired in a different way. But his view, there was a business in everybody. What do you think about that? Do you think that there's a difference in the way that, uh, our brains work as founders? Or do you think that actually there's a business in everybody and it can just take a fight in the middle of nowhere to bring it out of you?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think some people are more predisposed to be founders. Maybe it's the environment or their social groups, but I've always been of the idea of, uh, like having a, uh, growth mindset. And so I think you can pretty much learn anything if you have the means and the will and the motivation. And uh, to me that point was also the fact that the pain of staying was becoming bigger than the actual risk taking of jumping on something new. And so that kind of made me decide. But yeah, uh, I think everyone pretty much, if they have a strong motivation, uh, and a good idea, but also the willingness to put in the work, I think they probably can embark on an adventure. It doesn't mean that you have to be a founder per se, but maybe you want to join a more entrepreneurial organization so you can do your own thing.

Speaker B: Startup's a really good platform, isn't it, you know, if you're in corporate and you're thinking, I really want to do something by myself, actually going to a startup, um, will be a really good, uh, view of what it, what it could be like. When you see kind of people like my clients who are usually kind of, of going crazy most of the time, um, and they need to be, um, need to be calmed down and need that, that security blanket of, you know, a good, a good team behind them, a good wingman. When you're in that environment, actually, you can see what it, what it could be like for you if you were in their shoes. And if that scares the bejesus out of you, then the chances are you should go back to Aviva or wherever it is that you're, that you're, that you're working. So, um, did you know what the business was going to be? Did you know that you were going to go down the copy route?

Speaker A: So I started immediately looking for courses and other examples of people who've done it. So I have this idea of becoming a freelancer was pretty much the first thing. And yeah, I saw it as a possibility. There was a lot of people talking about it. I started working small projects on upwork. And so when I started making the first money online on the side, we're basically working on evenings and weekends. Um, that's when I realized, okay, like it can actually be possible. And it's a lifestyle that I enjoy as well because I can manage my hours. Obviously you need to sell yourself. Well, you don't sell the hours, but more of the value and other things. But yeah, I think at some point

Speaker B: the revenue from the side hustle starts to surpass, um, the wages. And you think, hang on a minute, the balance is, is out of sync here. Interesting segue, but the guy who, he washes my car has just done the same thing. He was working in a, um, in a company and doing his valeting business in the evenings and weekends and he just had that light bulb moment where he's gone, hang on a minute. I get more money doing that than I do with m. My wages. And that's a really good point as which, which to switch as well.

Speaker A: To me, I don't think it was actually though making that it surpassed the income. Uh, probably because I was dying to get out. So basically. But, but when I, I gave myself a rule, I think when I make the first a thousand dollars and I can see that I get, I can get a couple of clients every month, that was, to me that was a signal that Okay, I can, I can. If I do this full time and I have eight hours of work, I'm going to make it work. And it's also I tried and be disciplined enough to have savings so that I didn't have the pressure and the rush to, to do it again.

Speaker B: A uh, pitfall that a lot of founders go down. It's like, right, I am the CEO of a company now I'm going to go and buy a really expensive car. And it's like actually you're more of a, a self employed person before you're the CEO and you have to have uh, people that, like I said, they've actually sold all their cars as part of that journey and that, you know, they've had no money whatsoever and been living off like tins of food for quite some time. Ah, to build something. So I think that's a really good piece of advice as well is if you're not going to take investment, you need to work out how you, how you're going to fund that. And also another pearl of wisdom there Chris, is actually to, to set yourself Those um, those KPIs and those milestones to say what would mean that this business has proof of life. And if that's two clients, if that's a million, quiz with a pipeline, if that's a thousand dollars in the bank, whatever would say to you, do you know what, I'm onto something here, uh, then it's really important to set those really early, isn't it? So you know, when you get there and you can say, right, I'm going to kind of take the plunge now.

Speaker A: Yeah. And also I think one thought process that I made was also if this doesn't work I can still go back and find another job as a software engineer. Because my area was like, uh, there was a lot of demand for that type of job. Uh, and I had 10 years of experience so a lot of people were actually looking and I could probably have been paid more than I was being paid at my company back then. So yeah, it was all upside I think.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. And you now you've grown the business now you have uh, another team member working with you as a junior copywriter as well. So it's great that you can now give of opportunities to other people coming through the, through the ranks as it were.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean it's been growing year over year, probably like around 30%. So like very, I don't like, don't want to build a huge agency. Always been, always consider myself a craftsman and so I still like doing the actual job. I probably like. The ideal situation would probably be, I don't know, five team members maximum, maybe one research specialist, two junior copywriters, maybe a designer as well and an assistant. But I uh, don't have big huge plans of building a massive agency. I like being lean, profitable and make it work smoothly.

Speaker B: I'm going to ask this because I know everyone will be thinking it, uh, what has AI done to the business?

Speaker A: To me it helped a lot scale things and that's also probably why I didn't need to hire a lot of people still just because I think if you have a good process it can only improve it and optimize it. Um, obviously a lot of clients now they think they can write with AI. So it's also a lot of kind of education work that I try to do with my content as well and show them the actual results. Like using AI only and then having a solid strategy research process with AI does different things. But I've also heard a lot of my clients, when we typically finish projects, they are able to take the strategies documents that we create, plug them into something like ChatGPT for example, and are able to produce good work that maybe it's not great or it's not final polished drafts, but still they can actually scale and do some of the work even without me. So that's been, that's been pretty good to see that. And it's also a thing that I'm trying to do now, enabling them to use AI the right way rather than just, just um, leaving them to the madness or to the, to the, the desert land of ChatGPT and custom GPTs.

Speaker B: A couple of key words there were craft, which is what it is that you do, which ChatGPT does not, and uh, education. I don't think anyone can be blamed for thinking what we do. You know, what you do is a, ah, dying art because of CHAT GPT. It would be really interesting to see at some point one of those comparisons that you, that you made. And I think having that as a piece of content you've probably already done it would be a uh, really big eye opener for anyone that thinks that ah, ChatGPT or any other AI solution is a, is a silver bullet because it's really low quality and if without the right skills. And it's fantastic that you've said straight away as soon as I asked you about AI, uh, yes, you identified it as a potential early objection from a prospect. But in your day to day and your business it's enabling you and it's helping you and helping you to further enable your clients. And you're not telling them, hey, don't use this big, ugly, horrible thing. You're saying, actually, if you work with us, we'll then gift you all of the content which you then can use AI to enhance later on down the line.

Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think there's, uh, any reason to avoid or escape it. We can't escape it now. It's basically everywhere and all around us. So you have to embrace it some way and make it work. So that's why I'm constantly trying every new tool that comes out, probably, uh, using 10 different tools at the same time. And it's maybe also because of my software engineering background. I've always been curious of testing different things and workflows. It's the systems thinking in me, I think.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely that systems intelligence is a big one. Pulling it back to you for a second before we go into kind of what's next for you and the future of the company. One thing I know about you from our conversations is that you are teetotal and, you know, you're in a environment where, you know, you into music and playing the drums and things that are associated maybe with a bit of a party lifestyle and staying out all night. And so whilst I don't want to get into it too much, but I'm interested in that. So can you just tell us a little bit more about that? I know it resonates with quite a lot of people.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, uh, I used to come to. When I play music, I used to party. We used to have our. We used to have a practice room that we basically thrashed every weekend and have our like, beer pong parties and uh, have like the like, police basically pass in front of it every night, like 3:00am but yeah, I don't know, I got to a point where I realized, uh, I want to prioritize a bit more of like, the routine, the consistency. And I've never been someone who actually loved drinking. I mostly enjoyed like, the, um, community aspect of playing beer pong. I even have a beer pong tattoo here. Sink it, drink it.

Speaker B: You have to get an ice bath tattooed over it.

Speaker A: So we basically got. All our bandmates got the same tattoo. This was kind of like a bandmate thing because we used to replay. We used to call ourselves beer pong pros. And uh. But yeah, I got to a point where I realized, like, drinking doesn't really much. Doesn't uh, really do much for me. It was mostly like, even to socialize, I only felt more isolated and kind of more in my head always when I drank beer. And so, yeah, when I started embracing more of like the proper habits, early wake up routine, that's when I basically gave up drinking. So it's been three years and a half now. Yeah, I mean, like, the effects I felt that even if I was drinking once a week, then, like, it wasn't a lot, but mood stability, more clarity, more headspace. Even if you, if you don't drink that once a week, I think you can feel it once you especially like after a month or so.

Speaker B: Yeah, I do feel bad that, um, I found this out after recommending to you that you had an espresso martini for breakfast. So it made me feel really, really terrible. But, yeah, you know, hey, if it works for you, yeah, horses for courses. But no, thank you for, thank you for sharing that with us. I only asked about it because it's something that I'm seeing pop up a lot in the founder community at the moment, um, and around on LinkedIn as well. And often you find yourself having to be in one camp or another. Well, I don't necessarily think that you do. You know, you can still socialize and you can still be part of a community and a network, um, and people not berate you for having a drink or not having a drink.

Speaker A: Yeah, I've actually, And again, another boundary that I said myself, I want, I've always told myself, like, when I stop drinking, I want to be able to go out with people and first not resent them. And also being able to, like, push myself to enjoy the situation even if I don't drink. And so it's always been, again, kind of like a test over an exercise in, uh, in life.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think you're just such a. You're a positive person anyway. You certainly don't need to drink to make yourself feel better about anything. You seem quite comfortable in your skin and with who you are. So. Yeah, I totally, totally get that. Chris, I'm absolutely loving this conversation and I have no idea how long it's been for so far. I imagine that we're probably coming to an end at some point, but before we go into the future, I know we touched on this, this at the start, but I would urge anybody to reach out to you for a chat around. It would make my life a lot easier if the founders that I work with had an idea of kind of how to create their brand strategy and positioning and in a way that actually tells their message properly and resonates with their ICP as well. So I do think that, you know, at the very, very least, everybody should have a listen to your podcast. What's the podcast called?

Speaker A: Uh, the Message Market Fit Podcast.

Speaker B: The Message Market Fit podcast. I do win for the easiest one to say. I have to say the Message Market Fit Podcast and also download the newsletter or subscribe to the news. I've subscribed to the newsletter, of course.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Um, I think it's important that people do that. Certainly. Honestly, a lot of the problems that I'm fixing later on down the line now, now are just symptoms of them getting that wrong two years ago. So I will definitely urge them to do that. Absolutely love what you're doing. And on, um, that note, what's next for you? You said you don't. You're not after this kind of, you know, you're not actually dominating the world and having this world domination. So where are you going with conversion alchemy?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think for now what I'm trying to do. So my. All my projects, I've mostly been positioning messaging, copywriting projects for two or three months. What I want to do now is not expand the team really, but like, offer my clients a bit more of a roadmap that we can do together. So maybe 12 or six months just because I. A lot of times when we finish our projects, then the clients, yes, can do some stuff on their own, but then maybe their LinkedIn ads don't really work or their case studies are not great. And so what if we can actually take them together, at least for that first six months or a year, and actually make sure that they find this message market fit everywhere across all assets and across all channels. And so that's one, uh, thing that I'm working on. And also I've always had this idea of I want at some point build some kind of product, whether it's a software product or, uh, I don't know, a physical product. I would always explore going into E commerce at some point. But yeah, I've had this idea, but I still have no idea what to build. Maybe it will come at some point.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, maybe we'll collaborate on that because I've got some ideas around that that could absolutely use your skill set. Probably one for offline as well. And what about you personally? What's next for you?

Speaker A: I don't know so far. Just. I'm actually going to Thailand at the end of November, uh, which is going to be nice. So enjoy the hot weather and for Christmas? No, it's a bit before Christmas. Christmas, it's Italy. Family.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, nice with your twin. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And, uh, there's going to be a lot of good food.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, yeah.

Speaker A: Personally, I don't know. For now, I've actually been a lot into exploring the samurai mindset. So I'm learning all philosophies of Confucius, different samurai teachers, Asian, um, philosophy, so that I'm exploring that for the moment. And I don't know where it would take me at some point. Maybe do martial arts.

Speaker B: Well, you never know, it could take you in.

Speaker A: I've actually done jujitsu when I was eight. Eight years old. But then, like, it was just a year.

Speaker B: Right. Okay. Chris, this has just been actually a real tonic speaking to you. Um, you're building something that's so relevant at the moment in the world of go to market. Maybe it's more resonating with me because I'm kind of in the same space, but I think it's tough times out there at the moment for, uh, a lot of B2B SaaS businesses. And, um, most of them have a pipeline issue. And that isn't fixed by putting more sales reps on the phone and isn't fixed by just doing, um, more paid ads. Um, you've got to take it back a few steps. So I think it's been a very relevant conversation from a product perspective, but also just been great to get to know you a bit better as well. And I really hope that we can work together on some projects at some point in the future. I think it'd be really interesting. How can people reach you? What's the best way for them to get in touch?

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, so they can find me@, uh, conversionacomy.net My website, where you can sign up for the newsletter. And I'm mostly on LinkedIn, so I write every day on LinkedIn, so feel free to connect and we can chat in the DMs.

Speaker B: Brilliant. Chris, thank you so much.

Speaker A: Thank you so much, Donna. It's been a pleasure.