WhatsApp Business for Freelancers to Separate Work Life Fast Using eSIM with George Lineker

Speaker A: You end up nearly getting divorced because your phone never stops ringing and it's ringing on holiday. Those are the types of problems that you're solving.

Speaker B: Right, exactly that. Uh, our sort of selling point has always been fast, simple and affordable. ESIM is relatively unknown. It's dominated by the travel market. So you go to a different country for a few days and you buy certain amounts of data, uh, for that time. Whereas we're doing it on a monthly subscription where you get a business number with it.

Speaker A: What have been your kind of key things that you've learned along the way?

Speaker B: I think if you have a good team around you.

Speaker A: George Lineker is the co founder of youf Business Number. Helping professionals separate work and personal life through smart communication tools while championing the fight against blood cancer with cure leukemia. You are what I coin as a true entrepreneur.

Speaker B: Uh, I wouldn't go that far. It's such a simple idea, but in the tech background it's very efficient. It's actually even quicker to buy an esim.

Speaker A: You seem to be very happy running this business. Do you have any personal aspirations?

Speaker B: I think I wouldn't want to go and try and start something.

Speaker A: Welcome back to Founders Stories. I'm joined today by a really interesting guest and I'm going to guess now that you won't have heard of what he's doing anywhere else. He's got a super niche business, really interesting character and I'm very much looking forward to speaking to him. We were supposed to have a double act today. George was supposed to be appearing with his co founder but unfortunately he was seen. So George has very, very kindly said that he'll come and talk to us by himself. So without further ado, I'm delighted to welcome George Lineker from your business number. Hi, George.

Speaker B: Hi, how you doing?

Speaker A: Welcome to Business Stories. No, it's been, it's been some time. Right. We spoke ages and ages ago and I feel like I've got to know you a little bit over that time. So your business number in some ways is exactly what it Sundays on the 10. However, what you do is very different to anyone we've had on the show and also very different to anyone that we will be familiar to people. So tell us about your business number, what it is the company does and why you exist.

Speaker B: Yeah, so, um, your business number, we launched it in 2021, uh, so four years ago now. So we provide users with an additional number on your phone to use with the WhatsApp business app, so you can separate your work life from your personal life. Without needing two phones because obviously two phones are expensive and also quite a bit of a hassle. Uh so it just allows you to be a lot more organized and keep all your work chats in one place. And then more recently at the start of this year we launched our ESIM products which is a more complete product which offers you another number in terms of an ESIM where you can have data, unlimited minutes, unlimited calls. Um, so that would completely eliminate the need of a second phone. So yeah, so it's basically just for say freelancers, self employed small business owners who tend to have to speak to a lot of clients and um, want to separate from all their personal chats and switch off.

Speaker A: The personal trainers of the world are probably now just trying to get in touch with you quickly because we've got

Speaker B: a few of them.

Speaker A: There is. I remember being back at recruitment recruitment days and you do. I think I had three phones at one point. You have to.

Speaker B: We can solve that problem.

Speaker A: Yeah, I don't have it that much actually. It probably could help me now actually. But um, I'm sure it's whilst it's not a business that people will have probably heard of that much. It's definitely a problem that will resonate with so many people. Not even just like sole traders, but people are in jobs like sales jobs for instance where you just managing juggling phones. And the solution up until now, before I've done the world the courtesy of introducing you to them, the solution up until now has been to sack it off and not have the second phone. But then what happens is you end up nearly getting divorced because your phone never stops ringing and it's ringing on holiday and everything else. So those are the types of problems that you're solving, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly that, uh, it's quite niche but it's quite handy. So people in like the B2B industry, like state agents, recruitment, as you said, we had a few people who saying oh, keep getting bothered on like a. In the evening, ah, clients say I'm online or at the weekend and um, it's like you don't have the right to switch off. They're saying why aren't you applying to me? And it's, they're not in work. Yeah. So it's just uh, a cheap, affordable, fast, simple solution because obviously having a second phone number you want to carry around two phones as well as the excess of having another contract.

Speaker A: So yeah, I think recruitment businesses, there's a lot of recruiters that listen to this show partly because that's my background and My network also vertical drop, which is where we are today. You know, we have a lot of recruiters who come into the studio as well. I think for recruitment business owners, they should be thinking about this for their teens because there's a big focus on well being at the moment, but there's also a big focus on revenue. So where do you draw the line between them? You don't want your clients to get ignored, you don't want your prospects to get ignored, but at the same time you've got a duty of care to your people. So this could be a really good solution for that. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So that. So obviously price point is especially um, one of the factors which, especially companies who have to pay for the staff's second phone or solution. So normally they, they might have to be happy with people just using one phone, their own number because they don't want the excess cost. So that's why our sort of selling point has always been fast, simple and affordable. So you can use as you can sell both virtual number products or the esim within 30 seconds and you can have the number for WhatsApp for 5.99 or a whole esim m first from 14.99 so will be locked in your contract as well.

Speaker A: So fantastic. Your phone is going to go off the hook. I hope you've got your own product in there, otherwise you're going to get pestered to death. I m think this is a really exciting find. I'm so glad that we've um, that we found each other. Was this a you problem? How did you know that people were having this problem?

Speaker B: It came from a similar business when I was younger which was a second app for calls and sms. It didn't work out for whatever reason and one of our business partners who's in this, in that business is in this business now owns a small network with a load of numbers. So we had all these numbers and WhatsApp is just launched. So we're like, why don't we build a website instead of an app where we can deliver the numbers to your phone for uh, for WhatsApp because obviously WhatsApp is a lot more trusted. They didn't really trust having a second app before. It was like a secret. I thought, whatever. Can't really blame them. So yeah, just went down that route. So that's launch. That's where I met my business partner, current business partner, Sebastian, who uh, ditched you today. Who's ditched me today. Yeah. Hope he feels better soon though. But no. So, yeah. So then I met with Seb and we were like, right, I think we've got this good idea. It's easy, you can just build a website to deliver a number to your phone to use with the WhatsApp business app. So, yeah, so we went away, thought about it and um, yeah, four years later, um, we're up and running.

Speaker A: You are what I coin as. I don't know if this thing exists, but if it does, you are a true entrepreneur.

Speaker B: You are like, I wouldn't go that far.

Speaker A: You definitely are. You have all of the, uh, makings. It's just that spotting those little cracks that no one else really, you know, we go about our day to day and these things are happening. We know it happens, it's a pain in the ass, but we just put up with it. You're the one going, actually, why, why are people putting up with that? Let's build a solution for it and let's see an opportunity. And also from a failed business as well, you know, what can we take out of that and build something? How long has the business been around?

Speaker B: Your business number was summer 2021, so we're four years now. That was a virtual number product. So we're in the uk, we do US numbers and we do just started Australian numbers and we're going to launch Brazilian numbers soon.

Speaker A: Great. Are you bootstrapped business? Pardon? Are you a bootstrap business or have you, have you got investment into. No.

Speaker B: So we've got investment, I guess in terms of startups, what you see them raise nowadays, it's not, uh, not a huge amount but over the time I think we've raised about a million, um, which is, which is a good amount, uh, in different raises. So, yeah, so it's been good.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker B: It, yeah, yeah, it's going well. It's going auto growth at the minute. So, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: What does your team look like? Do you need a lot of people to support this? No.

Speaker B: So it's quite a lean business. We've got a few developers, we outsource. Uh, we've got our head of operations up in, he's up north in Leeds and then we've got people who monitor all the ads, all the marketing channels. So, yeah, so I think there's probably about four of us. So, yeah, uh, quite.

Speaker A: What role do you take in the business?

Speaker B: So I'm, I sort of oversee everything like business development and growth, more the M marketing sort of side. And then yeah, Seb overseas, he's a CEO, so he oversees the most important bits. He's Got a lot more experience than me in uh, businesses.

Speaker A: So how do we manage to grow it? Sorry?

Speaker B: No, I just said it works out quite well because we, we both do our own little cab. Our uh, expertise in different things.

Speaker A: That's quite important actually. I think at the start it's kind of like everyone just mucks into a bit of everything. But at some point your business matures usually after a couple of years and particularly if you're raising investors want to know that like what is your role in the business and what do you actually bring. So actually then starting to segment that into okay, you're the CEO. Uh, I'm looking after growth. We have someone maybe on customer success, maybe on marketing is quite um, an important milestone isn't it in the journey of the business. And it's not a young business really. It's four years old which you look at some startups now they've exited after a year. So um, you obviously doing the right things. And how have you actually managed to grow the business? Do you have a go to market strategy, product led growth? How does that work?

Speaker B: Yeah, so a lot of our marketing is on Google Ads. Um, we did Facebook and Instagram for a year or two which was working well and then we had to, due to how much we raise, etc. Cut certain costs and put on more on what has uh, less CPA and uh, what works better. So we, we focus more on the Google Ads. So obviously in the US and Australia we don't have big billboards and big marketing campaigns. It's more the Google search because we find that if people download WhatsApp business off the app store they work out they need a different number. So then they go oh. And then they Google WhatsApp business number or virtual number for WhatsApp. So we pretty much own all that real estate. So our SEO, our SEO, um, lady is great and then our Google. So yeah, all that rear. So we pretty much own. So that's how we get more kind

Speaker A: of marketing led, demand led. So uh, I suppose it's smart really. I mean you could probably stick someone on the phone and they probably could sell what you do.

Speaker B: I mean we've tried the sales technique as well, so we've done that. But I think that's what we're going to do for our ESIM product. We're going to, which is starting soon actually get back on the phones because what we found with um, sales calls is we have to sell WhatsApp before we sell us because obviously not many people have heard of WhatsApp business, which is weird considering Meta and how big. How big they are and how much money they've got behind them. So we were like, do we really want to have to start this call by selling another product before we sell our own? So now with the ESIM product, it's just ours. We're not relying on another company. So, yeah, so that's. Hopefully that will go down well. And also for the businesses who we're trying to tap into, with staff, over 10, 20 people, decent products, a lot more attractive as you've got. You can call out from it, you can text, you've got data as well. So. Whereas our WhatsApp products is, uh, ideal if you're just on WhatsApp messenger or calling everything like personal trainers, hair and beauty, etc. Like the freelancers. But I think a more complete product is better for the B2B.

Speaker A: Yeah. Excellent stuff. I feel like it's a really interesting, um. I feel like even though it's four years old, you might just be getting started.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think I know exactly what you mean by that. I think I thought some of us thought about the WhatsApp wave and would it hit already or if it would hit now. And I think it's the right time for the Eastern product as well, because ESIM is relatively unknown over here at the minute. ESIM now is dominated by the travel market. So you go to a different country, say you go for a few days and you buy certain amounts of data for that time, whereas we're doing it on a monthly subscription where you get a business number with it. So more for longevity than just cutting it off just because you're going to a different country. So, yeah, it's a different product. So we're not trying to compete with the travel, uh, market because there's some really big players there. Ah. But in terms of buying a number with your esim, I think, yeah, we've got there early and hopefully we can be competitive.

Speaker A: You seem to know so much about your market.

Speaker B: I've done it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you are super smart and switched on when it comes to business as well. I'm dying to know where it all came from.

Speaker B: Good question.

Speaker A: You're also not very old.

Speaker B: I'm quite old.

Speaker A: You know, um, we won't talk too much about age, but people that are watching this are going to go, wow, he's got, he's, he's sharp. Like, where did this all come from?

Speaker B: I don't know. I didn't really. I didn't really do Uni I did a year wasn't really for me, obviously did school and A levels before that. Um, and then I worked at. Yeah, I'm m not really sure where it came from. I had the app uh, before, so it's the same sort of industry. So I learned a lot from that. But then moving into this business and working with Seb and the team we have, which is a great team who uh, got great expertise in their field, you just learn so much as you go along. So I thought I learned a lot of my previous thing. But what I've learned in this business is tenfold.

Speaker A: And so you were. So you did go to uni. So prior to that you were uh, what type of student at school and college?

Speaker B: So I went to boarding school. Went to a school called Charterhouse, obviously a great school.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But I don't know, I didn't really. I wasn't really a boarding type person. I didn't enjoy the boarding part. Um, I live around the Scots. I thought the facilities, uh, were unreal, like sports school. And at that time I thought I was quite good at football, but I was, I was actually useless. So I went to the school thinking it was a sports school. And I remember being in like the first lesson since I've been there and they were like, this is an academic school. And I was like, oh, I'm in trouble.

Speaker A: What have you done?

Speaker B: Yeah, no. So. No. So I found it tough because obviously it was. So it's a very academic school. So, um, in the boarding side. So I think that's why I didn't really enjoy uni as much because I sort of done with the board. Even though it's not the same as boarding, it's still like away from home.

Speaker A: You got that reminiscence and then so

Speaker B: just just moved on from there really. I think I'm more privileged like because my privilege background. I think when I had the app and or like even started this business, I was living at home. Like I could afford to. Maybe not. Well, I had had money from somewhere else, like a previous job or anything, but I didn't have to. Like it wasn't one that do or die sort of thing. Like, so you're lucky in that way. Whereas you can work from home, maybe it not work out for a while and be okay. Whereas probably the majority of people aren't, uh, um, may as fortunate as that is in like, we need to make this happen. I need to and mate so that sometimes maybe people stop those ideas because they need to go out and get Get a job and stuff. So yeah, that's. I'm m more fortunate in that, in that regard.

Speaker A: We're literally just talking about it uh, with the guests a couple of hours ago to. You know, it's very easy to be idealistic and say, oh, you know, you need to follow your dreams. Follow your dreams, follow your dreams. But ultimately if you don't have any financial stability, then you might just not gonna have to work in a supermarket instead. Like that's just. It doesn't mean that you are any less motivated than someone who's got their own business. It just means that you've got to put food on the table. But it's great actually that you're holding your hands up and go actually I'm really lucky. I'm really privileged background and I could, I could take those risks because if it didn't work out I'd be totally fine. And actually that sometimes I feel like that's uh, something that I've got to tease out of people. But you're just like very open about it. You don't seem to be. Yeah, it is what it is and, and great. Good for you. You know, I hope that um. I don't know if the will but if I'd have say either I've got three children that sounded terrible, I've just completely discarded one. But if, you know, if they were to go on one of these shows at some point, if they were to find their own business, I'd like to think that they would be as open and say attribute a lot of the fact I was felt secure to the fact that you know my background. So it's good that you're able to do that. So you did a year in uni. You decided that is not for you. Have you ever worked in a. What we might call a very normal job?

Speaker B: I did a bit in my. In a car insurance startup. So my dad's best friend was in the insurance world and he uh, gave me a shot of that. But I think I was, I was a bit young.

Speaker A: Were you doing sales or.

Speaker B: No, it was. It was literally just a startup. So it was like from the beginning, um, which was a great opportunity anyone, anyone would have had. But yeah, I think I was a bit too young. I didn't really appreciate it and sort of didn't put everything into it, which obviously all my fault. So that didn't really work out. But which is a shame because it was a huge success. But other than. I just. We know when you've finished uni, come out of that in this. But. But no. So that was, that was. Did that for a bit, but I didn't also, I didn't think the insurance one was a way, uh, to go down, but no, it was a great opportunity.

Speaker A: And then from there you started to build this app. Yeah, the. Which is a.

Speaker B: Well, I actually had a music website with a couple of friends which, yeah, that didn't work, obviously. And then they went onto the app.

Speaker A: So you talk already about a couple of things that kind of didn't work out. Again, let's not use the word failures because they're all kind of there to make you better and to kind of learn from. But how was that experience, even with the privileged background and everything else and the fact that you didn't. Oh, you might not have had to worry for cash, but how was that for you from a personal perspective, kind of going around in this vicious circle, uh, of, oh, I know what we'll do, we'll do that now. Oh, that hasn't worked out. Has that ever put you off?

Speaker B: Kind of 15 year old, I think. I think, um, the second number app, I was ready to go and do something else, but I think when we presented the opportunity of having all the numbers and the WhatsApp business, I was all right, this will be my last sort of go. Not last go, but like for now, because I needed to get a job of some sort. And then we had the opportunity where we launched that and it's just gone from there, really. It wasn't like, I've never. Yeah, I wasn't really like, I've never, like, I'm not getting a job, I want to do my own thing and start something else. It was, it was more like, uh, it just fell into this one and I was like, I'll give this one a go. Because I always thought I believed in the two numbers on one phone. And I have said it when I called it a day on that app. I know there's 20,000 people out there in this population of say 70 million who have, um, a use of two numbers on one phone for work. And then, so, yeah, I think we're nearly at 20,000 now. So hopefully.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I just think you are, ah, the master of underselling yourself. I really do. Has anyone ever told you that?

Speaker B: Quite a few times, yeah.

Speaker A: Because you're like, well, you know, I thought, I'll give it one more go. I just fell into it. It's really refreshing though. It is. It is very endearing because we are so much used to. More used to people naturally just being, I suppose, more celebratory of their, of their success. What do you do to kind of give yourself a big pat on the back? Do you feel as ah, though you're really achieving something here?

Speaker B: I think in my head I know where I want to sort of take along my goal of when, how many people I want on it or where I want to see myself. But I think. Yeah, I don't really say out loud. I think.

Speaker A: Yeah, well you're about to.

Speaker B: No, well, I always said the 20,000 might, didn't I? So we're nearly there, so we might have to extend that one.

Speaker A: Yeah, but, yeah, yeah. So you see this as being a longer term thing for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I think, uh, well, you never, you know, happen it might, you know, might go well for a few years and then you might sell or it might go for longer because there's a, like it's going the right direction or it could just blow up tomorrow. I mean, so. But my, my thing is for long term, I'm not trying to get out quickly. Yeah. I think especially with this ESIM business we just launched, I think it will need a bit of time to, and a bit of marketing to get the, to get the message out there because it's so, it's so new. Like people don't really understand the light. Aren't familiar with the esim, with the numbers. As I said, it's just travel and like at the, when we started the WhatsApp business product, no one really had of WhatsApp business. I think if you went to the street, maybe nine out of 10 people hadn't heard of WhatsApp business and I think maybe it's gone to seven now. So still not many. So. Yeah, hopefully.

Speaker A: So essentially you are. If WhatsApp business does well, you do well.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, because they'll be googling for the numbers and we've, we've, we own all that space so.

Speaker A: And I imagine their marketing budget is quite a lot bigger than yours.

Speaker B: So yeah, I'm, I'm hoping for the WhatsApp business billboards.

Speaker A: So instead of you doing the sales. Yeah, exactly. They'll do that.

Speaker B: We don't have to do their job.

Speaker A: Brilliant. And, and surely I never really pry into people's exit plans. It's very unfair question to ask but, um, there must be imagining. I don't really know your world, but surely the, the future for you guys would potentially have something to do with a much, much bigger beast like a WhatsApp or you know, some Kind of big, big enterprise. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, possibly, I think sort of same sort of industry. Maybe like the WhatsApp APIs. A lot of people, user, uh, companies use that. Uh, um, I'm not sure if you're familiar with them but it's like so you know, if you go on customer service on a business, say like John Lewis and you get all the automated responses and you get put in. So those, they're called the WhatsApp APIs. So maybe they could be of interest if we build the product up or if we build the ESIM up. Maybe a network might, might get interested but who knows, who knows what will happen. We just concentrate on growing it at the minute.

Speaker A: Is this a full time job for you? Do you tend to work? Do you have time for anything outside of work?

Speaker B: Yeah, I do, yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, what do you like to do?

Speaker B: So I don't know, not much really. We got rid of our office. Um, I work from home so if working at home and obviously I live there on my own. So I go in the gym middle of the day for an hour just to uh, get out of the place. M. Otherwise I think I'd go insane. 247 in the.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so that's, that's the thing to keep the, keep the routine. But in terms of like interests and stuff, not nothing like religiously, just you

Speaker A: mentioned routine though, which is important to you.

Speaker B: I think you've got to have a good routine, especially if you're, if you're at home all the time. I think, well, maybe, hopefully as we get a bit bigger in the next year or two, we'll get an office back again. But it's a good cost saving exercise as well. While there's only two of you in London, there's not much, especially how much these offices cost.

Speaker A: And what would you say? I mean your journey slightly, it's slightly different. So some others that have kind of been on a slightly different path, to use your terminology, you've kind of fallen into it. Rather than having that big old light bulb moment where you know, you hate your boss, you hate your job and you wake up in the middle of the night and you go, I know what I'm going to do. You haven't kind of had that experience but you've still been on the journey, you've still been on the founder journey whereby you know, forget the privileged background for a minute that's just kind of stopped you having to work every night to fund it. Uh, but you've still been through the falls and the rise of, and the ups and downs and the roller coaster of the journey. What have been your kind of key things that you've, you've learned along the way so that you know, maybe anyone listening might find useful?

Speaker B: Well, in terms of building something.

Speaker A: Yeah. Just like what have been the things that you didn't know before that you've gone, oh, okay.

Speaker B: Oh, I never need loads. No, I'm joking. Um, I think if you have a good team around you, uh, that's, that's key. Um, have people good at um, each different thing and then it will come together well. Um, it's not going to always go right, I don't think. I think it's normal to have things go wrong. Um, it's normal to not fail but have failures on the journey. Um, but yeah, if you've got a good team and you stick with. I think if you believe in the idea it's going to, you'll, you'll make it through and make a good success of it.

Speaker A: And how did you feel when you realized that for those two times are going to kill this? Like how does, how was that experience?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think um, it's obviously painful. I think I led it on more than what I should have cut it earlier. Um, and then so you keep it trying because I think one, because I thought I was like what am I going to do? This was a good reason. And secondly was I think there is a good idea in, in this two numbers thing. I think there is something there, but it was just wasn't in that business plan. It wasn't executed in that moment.

Speaker A: And do you think you've taken some of those learns into business number three?

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. And then obviously the people you're working with now have also had these happen to them. So. Yeah, and then you learn from what you mistakes and so the things that

Speaker A: you do really well now or maybe the things that you didn't do.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think also experience as well. I was very young then. I wasn't really. I wasn't really as business savvy as, as maybe I'm um, probably. I wouldn't say I'm business savvy, but probably more so now and everything. Yeah. But you, I think you learned a lot as you go along. That's, that's, that's the main thing I can take from all this.

Speaker A: Did you sit down at the start of this business and really look at your kind of go to market strategy and how you were going to put that together or has that been kind of building the train track as it comes flying down.

Speaker B: Yeah. So we built the site first. We were like, we like me to make it really quick, uh, obviously affordable.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So cut out anything because you couldn't really buy something without going to a shop. So we were like, if you can get it to someone's phone within a minute and that's, that's a selling point. And then, um, we self funded, me and my business partner put in a, put in a bit at the start and then um. So I was fortunate. We had had quite a few people on social media, had quite a few followers. So I bought in a favor. And then from there you sort of saw your market. Say we were, we like, we got a load of hair and beauty people. We've got a lot of pts people, a lot of people who've got um, a lot of clients on their phone who want to separate from their personal chats. So then we started putting bits of different bits of money on different areas. So we went down the hair and beauty industry on Facebook and targeting them, targeting personal trainers, targeting tradesmen and then, um, saw a market and then went out for a little bit of investment that way and then went for that and then little bit and little place to see which works better and then go from there.

Speaker A: So you've just like massively simplified something that takes up hours and hours and hours of boardroom time, which is defining your ICP and developing content which just speaks to them. So again, underselling it because this is the thing that takes. Well, a lot of my clients really, you know, they struggle to get to that point where they've clearly defined their icp. Then they've gone down into, okay, what, what are the problems? What are the things that are keeping them awake at night? And now how does our solution fix that? So you did that piece of work as soon as you had the idea for the product and then just went ham on that. And then we're able to go to an investor to give proof of life to say, look, we have this many responses or we have this many. What is the sales process? Do they, can they buy from them or do they have to go through a process of like discovery? If you, if you do a call to action on a say, yeah, so

Speaker B: you just go straight to the site, you put your personal number in and it takes you straight to the payment page of your pay. You get sent the number by SMS and email, download WhatsApp business and, and enter the number.

Speaker A: There's quite a lot of product going on there in the background though, in

Speaker B: terms of the website, it sounds so simple and it's such a simple idea but in the tech background it's very efficient.

Speaker A: It's quite hard to actually get it running.

Speaker B: And our ESIM is the same like obviously it's not to do with WhatsApp. You put the number in. It's actually even quicker to buy an esim takes about 10 minutes. Set the ESIM M up view to the network with the QR code. But in terms of getting on our site to purchasing it, it's uh, it's even quicker.

Speaker A: I think that's probably one of the things that you've done.

Speaker B: Some people say it's too quick.

Speaker A: Oh really?

Speaker B: But no, no, we had, we had one of our, we recently. This was Seb's idea so credit to him for that. We've had one of the. Is there anything that stopped you from buying from us? And it was like how quick it was to buy and get sent a number. So. Yeah, but that was only one so we didn't.

Speaker A: So they thought maybe it's a bit of a scam.

Speaker B: Yeah, but it's just, it's just a quick process. Takes about 30 seconds. Takes about 30 seconds.

Speaker A: Who knew? And the very same person would have probably complained if he was too onerous and too little. But actually it's interesting. I did work in payments uh, in Fintech for some time and um, friction is good in that process. It can actually give us another layer of confidence when there's friction in a process.

Speaker B: Yeah, we've got the bullets stages. So you thinks is working in the

Speaker A: background and again building a whole kind of E commerce platform behind your product or behind your website so that people can genuinely buy self serve is really, really hard and even companies that think they've got that right still have people hand cranking it in the background. What's the kind of backup there? Do you have a secretly somebody sat in a room like enabling this or does it genuinely just flow?

Speaker B: No, it's just flows. Um, credit to think customer journey is great. Um, really important in terms of word of mouth, in terms of getting the word out, in terms of their own experience with the product. So that credit to our head of operations there, uh, and also our tech team, we, we, we use. So yeah, no it's a, it's a good process. It's all automated as well. So perfect. Keeps the business lean so people don't have to have people. Hm. In the background when things go wrong.

Speaker A: I mean, yeah, I mean you've not really done anything really. You just kind of Fell into this business and, and, and, and built a whole platform sites so people can self serve and you know, changing the landscape. But yeah, it's just, just nothing. Right. But I think it's a super interesting journey and something that I think will be quite a tonic for people that listen that actually think of overthinking this whole founder thing. It's like it's a huge decision but it's not really. If you've, if you've got a great idea and you have identified a cohort of people who have a real big problem that keeps them awake at night, you desperately know how to solve it. But you've got this whole stigma of being a found and it's all scary as a blocker I think there's a very good chance you just remove that for them because you just do it. And actually if it didn't go right the third time around, I think what you were saying was you'd maybe looked at getting a job.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. I think, yeah, I think Tom had run out of just living at home trying to make something work.

Speaker A: So that's your worst case scenario at that point?

Speaker B: Yeah, it wasn't like I'd tried something new. It sort of pivoted into this business. So yeah, it wasn't like I was at home thinking of something else. It was. It's always been the two numbers really

Speaker A: on one phone that's really bugged you, hasn't it? That two numbers thing has been your thing.

Speaker B: I don't know, it might only be me but I thought there was something in it so I stuck with it.

Speaker A: Well, I think 20,000 people have also got the issue. So what does the addressable market look like now? Give us some stats around like what is the total market that you could address people that potentially could use the product?

Speaker B: Uh, I mean, well, everyone's got a phone really so. But I know obviously it's not for everyone. Yeah, um, but so in terms of the market, I think it's quite a few years ago now but it was about 14 million have two phones. So even if it's less now, say 10 million, that's still people who. Fair enough. May m not want the WhatsApp one because that's not causal text but the ESIM product will completely eliminate the need for two phones. So yeah, so if we can get 50,000 of them that'd be great.

Speaker A: Oh, go a bit higher than that. 15 million people for God's sake.

Speaker B: Yeah, I know, that's what, that's why I think it was Doable saying I could do the 20,000.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, you can.

Speaker B: I think we'll see how we get on.

Speaker A: You can probably nail. You'll probably get 14,000 off the back of this.

Speaker B: I hope so. Yeah. Give you a commission.

Speaker A: Yeah. What's next then for you? I mean, it sounds like I'm getting a remnants of you. You literally just. It's Almost like the WhatsApp product has opened, uh, the door and the investment for you to be able to do the thing that you really want to build. So you, even though you're four years old, it sounds like you're kind of in startup mode in that. In that.

Speaker B: I mean, I think, yeah, I think we can't put away about the WhatsApp product because obviously WhatsApp's a massive tool, but now it's good to be able to not rely on another business to use. So I think if we can build up ESIM over the next few years, I think that'll be good. And also having two different products puts a lot of value on the business as well.

Speaker A: Makes it more sticky. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: Certain customers might not want one, but one the other. So hopefully it opens the door to more users.

Speaker A: You've just picked up on a really interesting point there, uh, about the reliance on another brand for your brand to work. I think certainly when there's something like Facebook or WhatsApp, and actually this applies to recruitment technology vendors that, uh, are listening as well, that reliant on the fact they're in a marketplace. And it's always very seductive to say, oh, we're official WhatsApp integration, or, you know, we're integrated into Salesforce. But if you're then reliant on, um, if their success is what's potentially going to drive your success, or if you are at the mercy of them and you're in this kind of relation, this hierarchy where you're at the bottom and they're at the top. That makes go to it really, really difficult, doesn't it? It makes it tough. And you. And you highlighted that when you said the first thing you've got to do is sell WhatsApp before I can sell my product. I've not thought of that. That. That I think you've got to break away from. Right, yeah, that reliance.

Speaker B: Exactly. That's why I think if the WhatsApp watts, obviously the WhatsApp waves there, uh, it's huge. But the WhatsApp business wave comes, then we're obviously in the right position for it. Hence us owning all the real estate. I Think if we started and it came in the first year, like, we wouldn't be ready. We wouldn't have the thing, uh, the tools behind us, we wouldn't have the money behind us, we wouldn't have our brand behind us. I think we'd be wiped out. But now, if we were in the position we are, if WhatsApp business had a billboard on the saying WhatsApp business, like organize your work life, something like that, we'd put a banner underneath it and then that's where you get your number.

Speaker A: Love that.

Speaker B: Because obviously you need a different number to your personal WhatsApp.

Speaker A: So, yeah, that's exactly what I would do as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Hopefully we're waiting for that way.

Speaker A: Yeah. So what's the plan then? What's next for you guys?

Speaker B: What's next? I think. I think we would just build, keep building, keep growing, I think, hopefully.

Speaker A: Have you officially launched the esim?

Speaker B: Yeah, so we launched it a few months ago now.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It's still very early days. Um, yeah, we've got a few. I think, as I said, it's dominated by the travel. I think it needs a bit of, um, education, marketing. So a few bits of pr, which we're raising money.

Speaker A: Um.

Speaker B: Well, we're raising money for. To get. Obviously it's a lot more expensive than just having Google Ads because I think people don't. I think for something, an eim, so new, they don't really come, um, to terms with a number for, like, why do I need. How do I get an eim? How do I set it up?

Speaker A: Yeah, there is a big education piece.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I think, yeah, we'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah.

Speaker A: I'm sure that any investors listening wouldn't mind chucking a. Chucking of putting 50p in the meeting.

Speaker B: Exactly. I'll take it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so that's obviously brand new and that's going to be the focus for some time. What about for you? Because you seem to be very, very happy just running this business. Do you have any kind of personal aspirations or views around what you want to achieve from a personal perspective?

Speaker B: I'm not sure. I think for me at the minute, my focus on this, I think I wouldn't want to go and try and start something else and put a lot of time into it for my team and for investors. I think while we're in a good position and got a lot going on here, I think it wouldn't be fair if I took off, took away a lot of time to try and launch Something else. So for me, it's this at the minute and then we'll see how we get on and then we'll see what happens after.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's very, very smart as well. For anyone that wants to be involved in the business, whether it's new customers or investors, to understand that actually this is your main focus right now is something that's going to be really important to them. So I can't wait to follow the journey. I can't wait to see what you guys get up to. I think it's going to be really interesting. If anyone wants to know more about E Sims and the fact that they're not just something that you need. If you go to Rwanda, uh, how can they get in touch with you? Like, what's the best way for them to find out more?

Speaker B: So, um, yeah, our website, your business number, dot com, Your business number. And then, um, yeah, email if you've got any questions or any. If you'd like to get set up with any E Sims or learn more about it, you can email us at. Hello, your business number, dot com.

Speaker A: Okay. And you're on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: I am, yeah. I'm not massive LinkedIn. You'll probably type my game on there, but I am on LinkedIn. Yeah. George Lineker. And obviously your business number as well.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm sure that you'll be inundated with messages even. I think there's, there's, there's two sides to this is a, you're going to help people to get a bit of life back by having. Ditching the whole two phones thing. But also the educational piece about, oh, okay, what's this going on with esims? And then actually the third one as well. I'm sure that there'll be people that are interested in, um, like I say, getting involved in the business and getting a piece of the pie. Because regardless of how much you want to sell, I think it's an interesting business. I think you're fantastic. I think you guys are going to be really successful. I'm gutted that I didn't get to meet Seb.

Speaker B: Yeah, maybe next time.

Speaker A: Maybe next time. But I think you on your own has just been absolutely fine. And thank you so much for coming on and talking to us.

Speaker B: No worries. Thanks for having me on.