What should marketers stop doing right now?

Speaker A: Foreign. Hello, welcome to the Drum Podcast. I'm Sam Anderson. This week we've got another discussion from the Drum community with a pointed, uh, title, what should Marketers Stop doing right now? There's a slightly uncomfortable idea, I suppose, running through this one, uh, which is all about AI. We're hearing constantly that it's helping as do things faster, um, perhaps even in some cases better. We'll see. Um, but is it revealing some things that they shouldn't have been doing in the first place? That's the question. Um, more content, more reach, more dashboards, more activity. Lots and lots of stuff. But as our panel points out, not all of that necessarily means more value. We'll talk about AI slop, um, our obsession with vanity metrics and why visibility isn't the same thing as trust. Uh, there's a challenge in there, uh, that Rich pointed out to me is particularly interesting. If AI is giving you time back, um, you shouldn't automatically, the panel says, use it to make more stuff. I suppose you just put yourself on the treadmill forever, wouldn't you? Um, so here's Richard with the episode. He's joined by James Lawton Hill, who's marketing and agency director at the APS Group, Greg James, not, not that one, who's chief executive at Havas Media Network North America, and Yvonne Van Bockhoven, who's chief operating officer at Team Lewis. We'll see you at the end.

Speaker B: Hi. Welcome along to the Drum Podcast. I'm Richard Draker, I'm the associate editor here at the Drum and I'm m going to be your host for the next 20 minutes or so. Now, here at the Drum, we're always asking what should marketers be doing today? Uh, but we're kind of switching that around a little bit and we're asking what marketers shouldn't necessarily be doing. Uh, now we're in 2026. Um, as we all know, marketing teams are under immense pressure to deliver growth, uh, to embrace AI, approve ROI and do much, much more with, uh, lots, lots less in many cases. But, um, in that rush to keep up, have marketers doubled down on behaviours, um, that no longer create real value? Um, so joining me today are three marketing leaders, uh, based in cities around the world. We've got an international field to today's conversation. Uh, we've got James Lawton Hill from APS Group who, uh, believes marketers need to stop treating AI as either a silver bullet or a threat. Hi James. Uh, we've got Greg, uh, James from Havas Media North America, who's based over in New York, who believes mocks have become too obsessed with, with visibility instead of trust. Ah. And we've got Ivan Van Bokhoven from Team Lewis over there in Amsterdam, who feels it's time to stop flooding every channel with content and start creating communications that people really want to engage with. So, uh, different views coming from different parts of the world. So it'll be an interesting conversation, but thanks a lot for joining us today everybody. So let's get stuck in to find out what to, uh, marketing habits deserve to be left behind and what, if anything, should replace them. So, uh, to get the ball rolling, we'll, we'll come to you, Yvonne, first of all, um, and you just tell us what, what you think. If you could outlaw, outlaw one common marketing habit tomorrow, what would it be and why?

Speaker C: Yeah, obviously AI tools are great, um, to help speed up things, um, you know, and we can work infinitely faster, create campaigns on the fly. What marketers, however, should not be doing is using AI to crank out massive volume, massive volumes of mass, uh, media campaigns or mass communication campaigns. I think they really should use it smarter to tailor the message to the audience to be a lot more bespoke. Really look at who wants, uh, to get what message, use it in that way and stop, uh, you know, developing, cranking out tons of AI slop and bore the whole world with it. So, uh, yeah, use it, use it where you need it, use it widely and stop more often. Use the metrics and the deep insights you can gain through AI, uh, uh, to AI tools and AI, um, uh, you know, monitoring and uh, really look at, am I reaching my audience? Am I really reaching my audience? Or should I change and pivot and change my campaign and do something else?

Speaker B: Thank you, Yvonne. James, what about yourself? What do you think, uh, marketers should stop doing in 2026?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think from my perspective, I think we're starting to be more defined by the tools that we use in the way that we're being asked to solve problems more than ever before. In terms of what I've seen, we don't get told to use Quarko, InDesign or any other kind of creative tools there. So why suddenly are we being, um, uh, defined in briefs to uh, use AI or certain specific types of AI? It absolutely has a place and there are obviously, um, guidelines and compliance, uh, requirements and needs, um, but help us solve the challenge, help us solve the problem. That's what agencies, especially creative agencies, are here to do. And we can work collaboratively with you and AI may absolutely be a part of that, but also there may be more traditional methods that you could use for that as well.

Speaker B: Thanks a lot for that. And what about yourself, Greg?

Speaker C: Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's in a similar vein. There's a lot of confusion over what does, um, given that the capabilities of technology and marketing and data and marketing. Right. We really run after vanity metrics a lot. And therefore we think, okay, this is the thing we should do because we can measure it and scale those things. And so just like trying to say, okay, here's an AI possibility, let's deploy it, we're often saying, look, here's a way we can now show you a lot of metrics about something. Let's just use

Speaker E: those. And the problem is when you focus on reach and vanity metrics that are about driving scale, you lose that sense of what, um, you know, James and Yvonne have touched on in terms of driving real engagement and real trust for brands and businesses. And so I think we're focusing much more on, like, what is it that truly drives, you know, desirability of brands and how do you actually create true engagement? And that's really, really important. And so use that AI, uh, use that data and technology, use the capabilities of all this production to unlock a different kind of engagement that will make brands more successful versus just worrying about scale. Because it's a big number you can show up to somebody with.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Uh, the AI slop, as it's been, uh, become referred to, um, the enormous amount of content that's being, uh, put out there is a challenge, obviously. But do you think, um, obviously, as marketers, do you have a different kind of feel about that, uh, compared to consumers? Uh, you know, I think about kind of people that I know who don't work in marketing, have nothing to do with marketing, don't necessarily kind of recognize that a lot of the content they're receiving is AI. Obviously, you guys, as marketers, you know, you recognize it. Consumers aren't quite. Aren't quite grasping, uh, you know, the amount of AI stuff that's been pushed out to them by brands. And is that a problem?

Speaker C: Um, it's. I think it's definitely a problem. It's a, you know, and having. Just to make it clear, Richard, I often also am struggling these days to see the difference. Yeah. Because it is advancing at such a speed and it's becoming better every day. Right. And not all AI content is bad, let's. Let's put it that way. But there's definitely a lot of slop out there and a lot of untrustworthy content. Fake webshops, um, fake, fake people. Um, there's a lot of fraud, uh, going on online, which of course, ah, consumers that are not so well versed in spotting, uh, the tricks and the fake content are risking becoming a victim of, um, and that is, that is a definite factor. I think we all have, uh, relatives or parents or other that contact us on a regular basis going, oh, I've been approached by so and so about this and that. What, what should I do? You know, and it's, it's, it's a phishing attack or a hack or they're trying to get them to download software and spy on their machines or whatever. It's a, it's a real reality. And sadly, AI tools are also in the hands of, of cybercriminals and becoming a larger and bigger, bigger threat. This is why trust is everything. And this is why as a brand you should be communicating authentically, be human and not, um, act as the, as an AI bot.

Speaker D: No, I absolutely agree. I think, like I said, that trust plays an absolute key part in that. I think consumers nowadays, certainly young consumers, they're consuming media in different ways to kind of the way that we consumed it when we were their age. Um, and the trust element of that, ah, believing everything that kind of, see, and it's not always the case in that way. Um, I think to flip that, the AI piece, there's obviously absolutely a part of that. If it can help localize, if it can help personalize that kind of message, then that's a really big benefit within that. Um, but there's got to be, uh, credibility in what, what, what's being consumed in that way across all different types. Yeah,

Speaker E: there's credibility. It's, I mean, I think it's responsibility as well. Right? Isn't it? So I think we're, we are, I think that that market's moving super fast as, as Yvonne said. And so every day there's new, uh, either a new iteration of an LLM. There's a different application of ways that we, we can use AI. And I think a lot of the time clients are looking to us to be an expert in it and we're learning it in real time, just as they are in many cases. So it does put us ahead in, in an agency world, certainly sometimes it's ahead of brand marketers who maybe are focused on different parts of their business. And it's also putting us ahead of consumers, as you said. Richard. But it's like, therefore, that gives us a responsibility. Right? What, in what ways are we going to use this technology and AI, in what ways we're not going to use it and how are we going to disclose that? I think there's lots of benefits of what that, uh, is doing for us as marketers and what it does for consumers. But we have to make sure that we're, you know, driving the right kind of compliance, visibility, just as we would about, you know, let's say, how influencers are paid and sponsored. Right. That again, is a piece of that trust puzzle and, um, what makes things desirable. And obviously it's very different if you're talking about generative AI and creating new content from somewhere, or whether you're talking about a role that I might play in helping a customer interact with a business. Right. Because they're getting faster access to a call center, for example, or, or they're being understood in a different way or they're getting less junk and AI slop. Because AI is helping us do better targeting around what messages reach them. So there's pros and cons and I don't think consumers are as wise to it as you asked. And I think, therefore, we have a lot of responsibility right now on our shoulders.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, I mean the advance of AI has been incredible over the last couple of, couple of years. Are you in any way surprised how quickly it's kind of taken off? And as you say, I mean, in a couple of years, you know, we are in this position where there's so much content being created, it's, um, difficult to tell the, you know, the good from the bad and, you know, the credible stuff from the, uh, uh, slop. Are you surprised how quickly it's kind of been take. Embraced by brands and clients?

Speaker C: Yeah, in all honesty, if I'm honest, I do think it, I am quite surprised because it started off with a bit of a discussion like, oh, is this safe? Should we be putting all our content in here? That discussion took very, very short time in my perception. You know, it sort of became obsolete almost after a few months. It felt like, yeah, where people just all rushing now towards it and seem to be less worried about what's happening to my data or, uh, what, you know, can the world. There was a couple of those instances at first where there was data leaked and there were some problems, but very little you've been hearing about it. It just feels like everybody's going full speed ahead. Data centers are being, you know, created left, right, and center. Uh, we have a lot of clients in the tech space who are witnessing it firsthand. And it is absolutely, um, incredible the speed at which this is going. And I have never seen anything like it in, in my time. You know, like, yes, there was the arrival of social media. This is how old I am. Yeah. And that sort of took the world by storm. But it's nothing compared to what, what is happening here and obviously touching all elements of what we do of people's lives. So it's quite a huge, um, transition that we're in.

Speaker D: It's an exciting time to be in the industry though, as well. This feels like there is in the cusp of that kind of wave, of that new influx. And it's huge. There's new entrants, um, there's new technology, there's new versions of technology that are almost happening on a daily basis. I think over time that will consolidate, you know, like it does with tech. There will be kind of some of the bigger players in the market will probably consolidate in that way. I don't think we're quite there yet. Um, although you are starting to see some of those things. But I think it's different in the different types of markets that we play. We, we work across different markets. You know, there are certain kind of brands that are a bit more, uh, conservative in terms of that approach and they want to get those, those, those kind of baby steps into that. There's others that are going to go full, full swing into that. But as an agency, we play a part. And to Greg's point earlier, that responsibility of people, helping them, guide them as much as we can and as much as we can kind of stay ahead of that to um, to, to help them with those choices.

Speaker E: It's, it does feel like a bit of a runaway train. Right? It doesn't very. I am surprised that, um, I'm surprised at how quickly that moment Yvonne described happened of, you know, you're doing meetings about what could be possible and then it is possible. And you know, and I think that like those adoption curves of different platforms we've all experienced over the last 10 years are just blown out of the water by the adoption rates of what, what AI is doing. Um, and I am surprised, I'm surprised that even really quite conservative clients who tend to move rather slowly are like, all in great. Where do we go with this? What do we do with that? And I think it's, you know, it's, it's partly driven by the market circumstances of every company needing to continue to Increase the price to be like, we're an AI company now, we're changing to AI that ah, trickles down to what we are all doing and it's driving that adoption, um, as well as the push, push up from consumers who are like, experimenting with it for themselves and creating their own sorts of content, which is both helpful for brands and a major hindrance sometimes as you try to navigate where did this thing come from now and who owns the rights to that and what can I do with it?

Speaker B: What do you, I mean, do you think, as you say, the kind of the runaway train is away now. So, uh, you know, is there any way of, you know, kind of reining that back? And as you say, um, I suppose what you're kind of advising people is to stop, stop creating so much content that, that doesn't kind of, you know, have a valuable impact on the brand. But um, now that that train is away, is there any way, way of kind of pulling that back, um, you know, back to any kind of semblance of normality?

Speaker C: It's, it's tricky. I mean there's obviously, I mean there's rules and regulations coming out as the eu, EU AI act, you know, forcing, uh, companies to adhere to certain rules, giving quite big penalties to companies that are, are breaking rules. Uh, there's lots of court cases at the moment. I mean it's, it's incredible. You know, the likes of Spotify artists suing platforms for, you know, taking their music, um, you know, writers in America, you know, uh, who complain about their data being used. So there's low lawsuits galore. But the problem is that those are all going very slowly. So, you know, a lot of a court case, it takes years sometimes right before there is a verdict. And meanwhile things are just going on and on and on and speeding up, uh, further. So from a, from a legal point of view, I'm not sure whether there will be, uh, you know, quick, uh, enough amends or guardrails put around certain things.

Speaker E: Legally, no, but I think, I think that that then falls, falls to us. So I think it's causing you to kind of figure out how do you, as a business and how do you, on behalf of clients, guide and navigate through this like it's a change management job. Right? The AI evolution is not really about technology or marketing. First and foremost it's about change management and then it's about how you deploy those, those pieces. So it does require different, uh, different skills and different muscles to be stretched. I think where we've taken the approach is Kind of like a making sure that at a fundamental 30,000 foot level, it's about human and machine and how do we work those things together. Then it's about safe spaces and guardrails. So um, inside the agency, like globally, we launched a platform called ava, which is a safe sandbox of AI to play in. So it means that when staff are using LLMs, there isn't data leakage from clients, confidential information and there's a space in which we can manage that. And then clearly when it does come to content creation itself, we, you know, we've built a tech stack and the sort of tools that allow us to be managing IP and rights usage in a very distinct way. So I think there are ways, I think brands and agencies, I think as marketers I think are doing the right shape of things to be able to put the right tracks in place or guardrails in place. Um, so I don't think all hope is lost, but it certainly feels right now like we're all, you know, gripping on tightly to the control.

Speaker D: Yeah, we've done similar to um, what Greg explained there. You know, we have an AI council, uh, you know, we're looking at tools on a regular basis, on a daily basis, we're bringing those tools for test and learn before we then put them in front of clients if we think that they are the right thing. And there are selected tools that fall under our ecosystem that are able to do that. They've all been truly tested, they've gone through legal, they've gone through all the different compliant checks that we need to do as an agency. Again, going back to responsibility, that's our responsibility to then share that uh, with, with, with our clients. But again it's so fast, it's fast paced and you know, we're doing this on a daily basis I think for brands and for kind of the larger brands that are trying to keep best of that, it's really, really tough. But yeah,

Speaker C: yeah, we're doing exactly the same. I think all agencies and I speak to loads of agencies, you know, they're all doing the same. We have the same, you know, uh, uh, bounded LLMs, you know, we're doing our own testing, we've developed our own agents, we've got, and there's a wonderful things that we can do with it. Right in terms of metrics, it's fantastic what you can create and in terms of D boarding and insights, the whole new world opening up, which is fantastic to play with. Um, but yeah, it is evolving at a speed that I've not witnessed, uh, before. So that's. Yeah, a fact.

Speaker B: Just going back to the point you made, uh, Greg, about kind of marketers becoming too obsessed with, or so obsessed with kind of visibility as opposed to trust. What do you think the. What's the kind of. The long journey of that, if that continues and trust continues to be eroded? You know, uh, what's the. What's the kind of the end point? Or will it get to a point where brands realize that actually we are doing ourselves a lot of harm here?

Speaker E: No, I think, I think that. I think there is. And I do think, you know, if you look at some of the most trusted or most respected, most desired brands in the world, then, yeah, they. That they're having sensible conversations like we are here and managing that. Uh, I mean, I think, you know, the last round of research we did at a global scale was called the Science of Desire. And it found that, like, there's about. Of all the brands that we looked at as about 84% of brands in that particular piece of research, which basically, you know, people are pretty indifferent on. So the question is not just how do you build trust there, but how do you drive desire for a brand in any given category, whether it's B2B or B2C? Um, and that, you know, the ingredients that are about attraction, they're about affinity and they're about attachment. It's really, you know, understanding how, you know, what do you have to have in place in terms of the content, the scale of content, the authenticity and trustworthiness of that content, but also just the desirability of it, the shape of it, you know, the, the creativity of it. And you know, remember that, um, LLMs really are a regressive model, right? So as advanced as they are, it's a regressive model because it is coming to you with what has happened in the past before. And the, the brilliant, um, you know, the best moments of brand brilliance that you see awarded at Cannes or whatever creatively are coming from, you know, a contextual amalgam of like, human lived experience. They're not really being just generated by a piece of AI yet. And I think most brands, and certainly successful brands, if you look at the top list of the most desired brands in the world, they get that because that's still, you know, a real human ingenuity and creativity. So we, if I look at like our, you know, we've got 25,000 people around the world, right? And most of our competitor agencies are just talking about the technology, whereas, which with the acquisitions, we're making and the thing we're trying to still keep hold of is that human machine. It is a focus on creativity and bringing human real creativity into the fold still. Um, and I think that you know, the most respected brands in the world, the most desired brands are respecting that and are still taking part in that conversation.

Speaker B: What kind of fears, what fears do you have in the marketing realm? Obviously we don't need to go into ghosts and goblins and ghouls and things like that. Um, but in terms of um, what keeps you awake at night? In terms of where marketing I suppose in its broadest kind of uh, form where it's heading. What are the kind of things that keep you awake, um, and you wish, um, you know, someone would find an answer to. Is there anything out there that uh, that you're concerned about?

Speaker D: So much concern. But I think there's you know, not only in terms of. We've talked a lot about how the consumers are seeing uh, kind of uh, anything that's happened from an AI perspective but again looking at it from an agency perspective is kind of the model that um, we had six months, 12 months, three years ago. That's changing. So we need to make sure that again we're providing value to our clients that they're seeing that that uh, is a uh, value based relationship and that there is um, um a model that works for both. There's an agency client model only works if there's skin in the game for both sides of that party. So I think that reshaping of the kind of agency model, working closely with clients as to how that kind of could uh, work with all the kind of uh, the newness that is coming through. That's a really important kind of thing. And making sure that we've got that right now and for the future. That's a key thing I love.

Speaker B: Yeah. Thanks Yvonne. Greg. Anything keeping you awake at night?

Speaker C: Yeah, there's lots of things keeping me awake. Luckily it's not AI I think much more uh, you know we have such much more pressing issues in the world at the moment with wars raging and other things that I think are a much bigger threat, uh, uh, to you know, the world at the moment and that are quite scary. Um, yeah. And that are changing the whole landscape and of everything we do. Right. And AI is a certain element of it. Again the speeding up of how things, how news spreads, um, fake news, uh, you know, polarizing societies. You know, again, and that's not because of AI but AI is a, is an instrument that, that helps uh you know, develop content at scale. That's not true, but that does move, uh, people and influence, influences people and polarizes society. So those are, I think, are, um, really big things that keep me worried. I'm not worried about AI and marketing. I, uh, said there's a lot of pros and cons. You know, we have, we can develop great things with it. The speed to market has massively improved. We work for a company called Cherry Motors and Chinese EV brand and we've been able to launch amazing campaigns and TV ads at a speed that would have normally been, you know, 10 times slower with real actors, you know, real sceneries, you know, so not just, uh, AI slop, so to speak. Right. So, yeah, you can do amazing and wonderful things with it and still have fantastic quality and help companies gain great market share through it. So there's a lot of really great success stories. Yeah. The fear is more coming from how is it used when it's put in the wrong hands?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. From an efficiency point of view, obviously, uh, things can be done much more efficiently, faster, as you say there, Yvonne, what would you advise, uh, other marketers to spend that time doing the time that they're saving? How could that be invested? Uh, better to create real valuable impacts for the brands they're working with.

Speaker C: Be more strategic as what you do. Yeah, that would be the thing. Be more strategic and not just keep running like a hamster in a hamster wheel chucking out content. And to Greg's point, looking at the vanity metrics, oh, look at how much reach we've had. Look at how many eyeballs we'll have. People actually looked at it in horror and misery or were they actually happy with the content they saw? Right. So look at the real value. I mean, there's a big discussion going on at the moment. Is the MQL dead? You know, is a, is a download of a report. Is that real lead? You know, I'm not, I'm not sure it is. Right. Because it's not. You've not really. There's not really a tangible, um, you know, have they learned anything about your business? Have they really engaged with your brand or just clicked on a link and downloaded something? Yeah, so, yeah, there's some really interesting discussions you can have at the back of that,

Speaker E: I think. Yeah, I was just going to say that. I think it's, um, you know, coming back to, you know, the thing that keeps me up at night is the thing that we've, that, that we've got to, you know, what the, what the Opportunity is because I think there's um. The thing that keeps me up a little bit is the issue of talent and how different it is to come into this industry as a marketer today versus when I did it, or what it looked like 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago. Um, and partly that's because of the role technology plays and the lack of human interaction we'd had. But I think that the pivot everybody's making back towards more real life experiences, there is more of a sense of people wanting to come and spend time together in the workplace, let alone do live events and activities together. I think it's important, but I think what that's giving you is like, how do we make sure that we create a generation of talent in the marketing industry that isn't just focused on efficiency, it's focused on effectiveness. So if you are making life more efficient through that scale of capability that you have in, um, uh, in through technology and AI, then how do you deploy talent to be its best self and understand what effectiveness metrics are and how you measure them and what you should be doing and looking for and trying to drive and then nurture that talent to be strategically thinking about that effectiveness and then creatively delivering against it.

Speaker B: And um, finally, um, if we were to have this conversation in a year's time, um, do you think things will have moved on in a positive way? Or do you think we'll still be where we are, where we're kind of, uh, debating and um, you know, all these kind of, you know, issues around, you know, too much content and not, not measuring the right metrics and things like that? Or do you think, uh, we will have moved forward in a positive way?

Speaker D: No, I think we will have moved on. I mean the thing, you know, if you look just back 12 months, the rate of pace, like you said, is huge. Um, I think we'll be moved on in a positive way. I think there will be a bit more clarity, like some of the points that we've touched on today in terms of uh, some of the legals that Nirvana's talked about, some of the kind of consolidation starts to be a bit more consolidation that will start to kind of creep in and it'll make a lot more easier to kind of use some of this kind of new technology that we now have at, um, hand. But I think like we've touched on today, it's all got to be. It's the human and the technology together that's still going to be a key part. And human plays an m. Absolutely massive part. In the future of this and, and always will. So yeah.

Speaker B: What about yourself, Greg? Where do you think we'll be 12, 12 months down the line?

Speaker E: Well, I'm, I am an optimist so I think we'll be okay. Um, but I, I mean I think this will settle a little bit. I mean we do also in the marketing industry go in our own little hype cycles and stress about things. I think there's a rapid pace of normalcy being created around this. Um, but I think that what I, my hope and the optimism um, is that I think we will see um, you know, an end to the conversation about brand versus performance. I think we will recognize that, ah, immersive brand experiences which build trust in safe ways, drive brand desirability and that means taking a look at things holistically with technology, with human plus machine. And I think we'll get.

Speaker B: Thank you. And you have the first word, Yvonne. We'll give you the last word.

Speaker C: Woohoo. Thank you. Uh, how gentlemanly. No, yeah, I think I'm the same. I'm always an eternal optimist, otherwise I wouldn't be in this industry. I don't think it's an industry of eternal optimists. Uh, I reckon. Uh, but yeah, I think um, you know, interestingly, AI favors human content. Uh, it favors authentic human content and it disregards um, AI content created by its, by AI. So that's interesting. So, and uh, also interestingly, uh, me coming originally from the PR angle, I love seeing that traditional media is all of a sudden more important again and content from renowned media because also they are ending up higher in the AI search rankings. So some uh, interesting old mechanisms of society are coming back as well which having a bit of a revival which I find quite, uh, quite cool to see. So I think, yeah, the future looks bright. Things usually, you know, go through a big hype cycle and then sort of calm down and systemize. I think we're on the top of the hype cycle now. I can see the slowdown coming uh, a little bit and people going, hang on, we still need to get on with our campaigns and we still need to do things and it's not the magic wand. We, we thought it was going to be for everything. So yeah, I think it's going to be better.

Speaker B: Fantastic. So it's, everything's looking rosy for the future. We're not uh, we're not done for just yet.

Speaker C: No. Yeah,

Speaker B: uh, great stuff. Thanks so much for joining uh, me today. Thanks for sharing your kind of your thoughts and your insights all been very, very interesting, and I look forward to speaking to you all again very soon.

Speaker A: Thanks very much, Richard. Um, and thanks for joining us. We'll see you again soon. Goodbye.