There's never been a better time to be a marketer

Speaker A: I think the thing that I do really well in marketing, understanding people, because at the end of the day like no matter how technical your marketing gets, no matter how removed you are from the individual, good marketers understand people doubling

Speaker B: your E commerce revenue shouldn't feel like a mystery. I'm Joe Chavez. I'm an e commerce consultant who over the past decade has helped hundreds of up and coming e commerce brands become more profitable. In the process, I've helped generate over $100 million in revenue, spending $30 million on Facebook ads, designing beautiful Shopify stores, automating effective email campaigns that grew revenue while also providing strategy for e commerce brands you've probably heard of like Crocs, NutriBullet and Taylor Stitch. Now I'm connecting with e commerce store owners on this podcast. From startups to global brands, you'll hear the story behind their store. This is the Double or Nothing E commerce podcast where we uncover timeless strategies and tactics that you can use to double revenue even if you don't have an endless supply of money, time or talent. Let's get into the show.

Speaker C: In this episode on the Double or Nothing podcast, Mike McLean, partner of the Hypo Group, shares an important principle. People must be understood. He believes that effective marketers understand people by putting themselves in their shoes. With little to no information to begin a, uh, campaign, Mike has the ability to identify the demand and achieve objectives. Listeners will be activated to empathize and execute. Let's jump in as we go Double or Nothing with Mike McLean.

Speaker A: Um, so I, uh, I live in Indianapolis, I'm originally from Illinois, went to a small, uh, private liberal arts Christian school in Indiana that most people probably never heard of, called Taylor and ended up in Indianapolis through that experience. Um, the short story is had a couple of really cool uh, professional experiences. Um, one was with the one was with a really unique delivery startup called Clustertruck.

Speaker D: I saw that. Were you with a team lead and specialist there?

Speaker A: Yeah. So uh, that was an interesting company. Still around, they're doing some cool stuff. Um, and that was kind of my first taste in entrepreneurship. So they. My favorite story from Clustertruck is happened in the first five minutes of working there and it was like, you know, just, just finished school and I was bright eyed and bushy tailed and I

Speaker D: go for marketing or you were just going general?

Speaker A: I actually did but it was like, which I'm sure you can relate to and understand. And I feel like most people I talk to in any profession, but especially marketing, you know, we were just saying how marketing is so technical the technical parts of marketing change week to week. Literally nothing I learned in a textbook marketing wise has been applicable. It's all been, it's all been more about like how do you think or how do you talk and that sort of thing. But anyways, we were. So we were a, uh, uh, food delivery. Essentially it's a vertically integrated food delivery startup. So they own the kitchen, they own the software, they own the drivers, everything. It's a really cool concept. I think it has some challenges, um, for scaling because it's so vertically integrated, but cool concept nonetheless. Anyways, and uh, the, the founder was very uh, high profile, well known guy in Indianapolis. So I was kind of like, man, I'm m so excited to get this exposure to him and uh, you know, this, this quote unquote sexy startup. And at the time they were literally working above the kitchen where all the food was delivered out of. Out of their first kitchen in Indianapolis. And it was like, I mean you could smell the grease from like upstairs.

Speaker D: Wow.

Speaker A: It was uh, it was kind of, uh, it was kind of grimy, but in a very like authentic startup way. Right?

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: So anyways, um, they're like, you know, this is the address when you get there. Park, park in the parking lot. There was no parking lot. And come up the stairs and I'm like, I get there and I like open the door. I'm in the kitchen and they're like, oh, you probably go upstairs. You know, I was probably wearing like a tie or something. And so I go upstairs and yeah, uh, I didn't know what I was doing. Um, I go upstairs and I. And literally as I'm walking up, you know, I don't know, maybe I was supposed to get there at 9. They had a 9am all team stand up. And our CEO Chris was like, all right everyone, let's huddle up real quick. Um, and I kid you not, this is. As I walked upstairs and we're all huddling up, it's like, all right, we just closed a uh, 10 million dollar round with the VC they were working with. Um, we're excited. It's all sky's the limit from here. All right, everyone get back to work. Break. And that was like my, that was my intro to cluster truck and it didn't.

Speaker D: Was that your intro to marketing as a whole or had you done marketing already?

Speaker A: Um, um, I. So I jumped into a very like generalist role at that point, but I had done no like formal marketing. Pretty much anything I had done at that point was uh, more sales related. I'D done a couple of like, sales internships. Um, I mean, definitely had learned marketing through those experiences in ways I didn't really couldn't put my finger on it as marketing. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but really didn't get any real technical marketing experience until my second role at that job. And specifically more my most recent job.

Speaker D: Nice. So coming in, that was your first experience. Just like right into the standup, like, all right, we just closed another round. And then what did you do at a clustertruck? Uh, like, were you running ads? Were you.

Speaker A: Yeah, specifically. Or marketing?

Speaker D: Uh, you specifically.

Speaker A: Yeah. So the first job was, it was an interesting concept because it was such a hyper local model where, um, we had a downtown kitchen, in this case Indianapolis, and we would only deliver out, uh, where we could guarantee the food would be seven minutes old. The food gets delivered as soon as it comes off the line. So we'd only really go about seven minutes out. So that meant that it was. Marking was a challenge. Right. And you know, from Facebook ads, it's very hard to target a seven mile, uh, a seven mile radius, no matter how dense that is. And we weren't in New York City because New York City would be too dense to drive. So it's like it was kind of in between, like maybe tier two and tier three downtown area. So marketing was a challenge. Where we found a lot of success was actually through brand ambassadors. And, um, I got the chance to, uh, run that program, um, for really my first year while we grew. So from that first day where we closed our series A to basically a year in, I think we opened six kitchens. So we went from one to seven. And I was flying around and driving around and working with brand ambassador teams who were literally handing out flyers, bundling up on cold winter days.

Speaker D: Wow. Codes.

Speaker A: Trying to get people to order, doing the dirty work. Um, and then my second year at that company was more in, uh, a product marketing role. Um, so it got a little more technical, um, did a little more digital, uh, marketing type stuff. But the first year was the old fashioned hand to hand combat.

Speaker D: I feel like that'll make you appreciate marketing though. Right. I remember I was hanging signs and doing print stuff and mailing it out through the postal stuff. And then now when I do an ad on my. Is so easy.

Speaker A: Yeah. Compared to that something like Facebook, it's like. Yeah. I mean, that is, there's a reason why Facebook is a, you know, I don't know, four or five, $600 billion company. Uh, there's never Been anything like it?

Speaker D: Yeah. Ah, yeah. So, um, from there, like, what is, uh, what did you feel like? Do you feel like you have a superpower when it comes to marketing?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good question.

Speaker D: Like, if you had to say, like, here's, here's like, my superpower. And it doesn't even have to be like, AdWords. Like, for me, it doesn't be Facebook. It's just more of, like, you know, what is that thing that you do really well?

Speaker A: You know, man, I think the thing that. I think the thing that I do really well in marketing is, uh, understanding people. Because at the end of the day, like, no matter how technical your marketing gets, no matter how removed you are from the individual, good marketers understand people. And, uh, I think that's especially powerful, honestly, when you are working more removed from people, because it's easy. In that first one I just mentioned, it's easy to understand how pissed someone is when they're chewing you out face to face, or how delighted someone is when they're telling you face to face. When you're removed from that direct feedback, you have to understand, put yourself in their shoes. So, you know, um, it may not even be something technical as much as thinking through. Like, if I were being served this ad or if I were clicking on this landing page, how would this make me feel? Would I really want to buy from this company? Um, would I choose X over Y? Um, so I think that's a powerful thing. And especially, especially in leadership too.

Speaker D: Right?

Speaker A: I mean, not even just in a technical role, but as you work with other marketers, you know, as when we work together, Joe, um, it's the same thing. Like, you want to work with people you like and that you can relate to and that you can get behind the same vision. And a lot of that is, interestingly enough, a soft skill.

Speaker D: Yeah, I'm starting to see that. Like, soft skills over hard skills all the way. But I feel like it's more preached of, like, get the certification, get this credential, and have this badge versus, like, the soft skills that you can actually measure and being willing to learn. Um, how did you learn marketing too?

Speaker A: I don't know. Go ahead. Sorry.

Speaker D: No, go for it. I want to hear what you'd say.

Speaker A: I don't know if this is a rule, but it's been my experience so far is those soft skills maybe get you in. Get your foot in the door to get you an opportunity that you weren't otherwise qualified for. And it's the chicken and the egg thing. Right. It's like, you know, someone's listening to this. Like, man, I want to. I want to become a Google Ads specialist, or I want to be a Facebook ads buyer. But, uh, I've only watched YouTube videos or, you know, I can only speak the language. I can. I can't point to how much I've actually spent. Whatever. How do I get my phone? Well, I think the truth is you kind of have to just be able to get your foot in the door with soft skills around relationship building, selling, and. And asking for the opportunity. Right. So, you know, the second half of my experience at Cluster Truck was a lot more of that, and it was. It was, uh, getting put. Put into situations where I really wasn't qualified at all, technically, asking a lot of questions and learning on the fly. Which, interestingly enough, um, led to my next job, uh, where, you know, with, uh, Vista Verde Dustin, who, you know, was investor at Clustertruck, um, and I think he would say just kind of saw my willingness to jump in and honestly put me in specifically a Google Ads buying role, that I'd probably spend a collective $50 on Google Ads and then went on, wow, over the next year. So it's like, what?

Speaker D: Wait, hold on, hold on. So you. You had spent like 50 to date, but then the soft skills got you in the door, and then you end up spending like a million that next year.

Speaker A: Yeah, so don't tell Dustin that, because I don't know.

Speaker D: No, I'm not gonna say. Oh, okay. I just. I know that that is huge because, like, yeah, imagine if your mindset was, hey, I just, like, I don't have the experience. I need to go put in my 10,000 hours or, like, any of that type of stuff, and then I'll approach somebody, letting them know what I have. I'll first up, build my website and do all that versus you. Just like, I was doing good where I was, and I was just having the soft skills where I am in my current role, which opened the door to the next thing.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. I think, um, I definitely had a desire, specifically when I started that second company, to get more technical experience, specifically in marketing. I've always loved marketing, and I didn't have a desire to live out a career as a Google Ads buyer, but I thought, um, it would be a great experience to get experience in some platforms that have such a large influence on marketing day, like Google or Facebook, whatever. And at the time when I started the company, I kind of made that desire known. No surprise. You know, leadership wasn't wasn't eager to hand over the keys to someone who didn't have experience on a platform that really influenced our day to day operations pretty significantly.

Speaker D: But was uh, this at ClusterTruck or VVDP?

Speaker A: So this is at VVDP at the time it was called Same day Dental. We were really only working that one brand that was more emergency focused and so really the whole business was emergency focused. And so Google Ads was, was our lifeblood. Uh, um, started working kind of shadowing the agency that was running the account and just asking so many questions like okay, why do you guys do it this way? Um, or you know sometimes, sometimes I would have these checks in my mind like I don't. That doesn't make sense to me. I'm sure there's a way they do that. After I get off the call with them I'd go Google around. Is this a best practice? Probably half the time I figure out oh there was a good reason why they did that. Not the time I figure out they just weren't putting the emphasis on the account that I would put on it being in uh.

Speaker D: Oh yeah, I love this. I, I've, I love this being like even an agency person myself. Like because I always tell our team like every, all the things we're going to do for somebody is available on the Internet now. So the only differentiator is like can we work harder and try more things and do it at a faster pace because otherwise like you guys might as well do it in house.

Speaker A: 100. Yeah. So I think I um, I think I got all of that education through Google. I mean honestly and YouTube.

Speaker D: So you didn't go to school for marketing specifically with digital? No, like it was more probably what like uh, user uh, bases and user samples or like case studies and like that type of stuff. In school it wasn't like technical stuff.

Speaker A: Yeah. In school. No. And again I went to like, I mean my class size at College was 500 students so.

Speaker D: Oh wow.

Speaker A: They had no capacity to build out any sort of uh, you know, very technical business degrees. So it was maybe case studies. Much more like you know, marketing and how to do a SWOT analysis type stuff. M. Okay, so 00 Google Ads education in college. Um, and not to say that that was bad. I'm really thankful for my education for other reasons beyond like what it taught me to do in Google Ads. Honestly it may have prepared me to be confident about asking for, without the experience, um, for other reasons but I 100% believe, you know, I've been talking to My brother right now who just graduated and he's looking for jobs and he gets discouraged by, uh, these entry level jobs looking for two to four years experience. And so I got one hand, like, hey, Cam, you know, that's a little bit of gamesmanship. Like they may or may not actually look at your experience. The other part is like what you just said, Joe, everything is available to you on Google. So if you want to take the initiative to go learn it, you can go learn it. Like, I guarantee you the agencies that are getting paid a lot of money to go figure these things out are getting paid to be experts on Google and how to figure these things out, how to surface ideas amongst their peers, um, which is like so freaking exciting. And part of the reason why I am now taking the risk to be more on my own is like, it's all out there like this. There's never been a better time to be alive as a marketer because the knowledge is all dispersed. And uh, you know, you're in North Carolina right now and I'm in Indiana. We've never met face to face and we're having a great conversation. We'll have more to come around.

Speaker D: By the way, that's the title. There's never been a better time to be a marketer. You just dropped it right there.

Speaker A: I love it. I love it. It's a great time to be alive.

Speaker D: What a time to be online. Um, yeah, no, that. I love that. And yeah, we're going to have definitely a bunch more chats and yeah, I freaking. I love it. Keep going, man. You're on a roll. I'm sorry for interrupting you, by the way. I just threw off your flow.

Speaker A: No, it's good. So, yeah, I mean, I think the other thing I'll say too is, um, you know, Connor, I think I worked with Connor at.

Speaker D: Yeah, we're going to get him on the show.

Speaker A: He was a biochem major. What? Yeah, he was a biochem major, pre med, and then decided that he liked business. I think he made a good decision. Super, super smart. Like, I don't know, he might have had like a 4.0 GPA and pre med, like very high level intellect. But he, um. Very similar to how I pursue Google Ads, he pursued Facebook ads. And um, you know, I definitely credit Dustin, our boss, of giving us a leash too and giving us an opportunity when maybe a lot of other people would have more preferred experience.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker A: So there's some credit there. But getting also the opportunity to work alongside Connor as he figured out Facebook ads. Um, was also encouraging and spurred me on to be like, man, you know, he's getting really good at this. You know, he started with a $400 CPA and he's getting it down to $40. Like that was almost some competition, Some healthy in house competition. Yeah, what am I going to do? You know, we have our marketing meetings and he's, you know, he's really like making me make everyone else look bad because he's killing it. That was fun and we have a great relationship. Um, but I've seen it done with him with Facebook and other friends. I have as well. Um, and not to say that like, not I said my education is on Google. That was probably a little bit, uh, of an exaggeration. The truth is, like, there's so many resources out there, whether it's on forums or friends, m or Google, YouTube, etc. To just ask questions. And I think, you know, one thing that, um, one thing that I think specifically young leaders struggle with and anyone is a leader, by the way, not just people in management or director roles, but anyone that wants to take an initiative, I think what they struggle with is they feel like this imposter syndrome, imposter syndrome of I'm in this role. I better give off the impression that I've got this all figured out. So I can't ask any questions, I can't show any weakness, and I need to have a quick rebuttal in case anyone challenges me. And at least this like, um, isolation where you can't ever actually learn and grow. And I think the best leaders in every single role are just constantly learning about whatever it is they're working on. And, um, I'm not going to say that I'm perfect at that because I definitely have struggled with that at times. But when I, when I've been pushed to be like, hey, it's okay to not have all the answers and to be like, wow, man, you really challenged me on that in a marketing meeting. And I'm not going to lie, I felt dumb for not having an answer or not knowing what that metric meant. You know, I didn't know what, I didn't know what a CPM was three years ago. Uh, obviously that sounds kind of crazy now, but at some point I had to, I had to raise my hand and say, what's a cpm? Or silently, google, what's a cpm? I think surprisingly most people are happy to tell you what they know. And yeah, that, that's, that's a, a huge part of, of getting good at something. Is just being like, you know, man, hey, know, I don't know what, ah, uh, what. What the point of a lookalike audience is or what is a lookalike audience. Um, so that's been. That's been a fun part too. And also, like, you know, to continue the soapbox life is way more fun when you don't take yourself so seriously.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker A: If you're willing to be like, I don't. I don't know. Like, I would love to figure this out. Um, but. But even to your superiors being humble enough to be like, I did not have this figured out, or, I'm struggling on this. I need some help. I'm gonna pull in some other resources on the call frame. Whatever it is. Like, it relieves the pressure of feeling like you constantly have to perform at a level of perfection, which is unrealistic for anyone to really aspire to. Yeah.

Speaker D: And it does help you get results and build relationships better. Because then you're not. Like, it's funny. People think you don't. Or like, you think people don't see through that when you're just like, oh, ah, yeah, I know. And they know you don't know. But, like, if you're willing to learn from them, it just makes it more likely that they're gonna come to you and ask you questions or just bounce ideas off, actually build a better relationship, and it leads to literally what you talked about. Then the other opportunities open up. So, yeah, I love that. And go ahead.

Speaker A: I think another thing, too. You just talk about asking questions. I think the best marketers that I've interacted with are not the ones who. Who have taken a problem and been like, I can figure this out. Give me. Give me a few hours to go bang out this campaign. Or, yeah, you know, uh, uh, spin up this landing page. I think the best marketers are usually the ones that are just, like, not afraid to throw out an idea or ask, which really is the root of that, is ask a question and be curious. And, like, uh, you know, we had some calls, um, together, uh, when I was at VBDP and you were working with us. And, uh, what impressed me about you was not that you were able to say, you know, I've spent X amount of dollars on Facebook. I could have cared less because I knew. I knew I knew what it meant to spend a million dollars and knew you could.

Speaker D: And you're like, I spent 50.

Speaker A: Right. And I know that that's like a pretty.

Speaker D: That's a.

Speaker A: That's a vanity metric of all vanity Metrics. But, yeah, what I was more impressed with and more like, man, this is, like, this is a. This is a great, uh, partner is being willing to be like, have you guys tried this? Or I wonder. I had never tried this, but I wonder if X, Y or Z work. I'm like, that's what marketing. That's what businesses. That's marketing is. The business is, like, constantly trying to think of creative solutions to problems. Um, yeah. So. And. But if you're. If you're afraid to ask questions or afraid to admit that you don't know, then, man, I can't imagine how tough that would be.

Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. Honestly. Yeah, that's. That's the truth right there. I was actually when, um, that specific scenario is we. I had thought about, like, how do we even get this to work? And it's probably a dumb question that I even asked this, but, like, tracking in person and then measuring that and doing all that stuff. I'm m. Like. And not even knowing if it's going to work. So I don't want to share if it's going to fail, but then just being like, let me just ask. Anyways. So, yeah, it's. That's definitely a key. Um, so you would say, like, 90% of your education has come through, like, YouTube, podcasts, Google, when it comes to, like, tactically marketing on these channels.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think that. That and just doing it right. So, like, yeah, I also had the good fortune again of having a boss who is like, um, not. I. I wasn't getting. I wasn't getting, uh, docked if we went over budget a little bit or if I made a mistake. Um. Um. Because I think he understood my heart of wanting to learn and grow.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so a lot of it, there's.

Speaker D: There's a lot of, like, Dustin's very experienced. So knowing, like, how experienced he is, he has willingness to say, like, I'm going to train somebody and, you know, coach them up. Like, it's huge. So anybody listening to this and you're wondering, do I need to go to school for four years, five years, six years, get all these certifications before I even try? I'd say, go try and then get those things as you're trying. Yep.

Speaker A: And to your point that you just made, go try and if you can, bonus points for finding a boss who, who will throw you in the deep end. Like, yeah, because I think, you know, that that was. Truthfully, of all things, probably the best experience was just. Was just getting in every single morning and seeing how we did Yesterday in the last seven days and just, just being an analyst at the end of the day like that's, that's what a lot of marketing today is, is analyzing and looking for areas of improvement and what went wrong and, and that sort of thing. So yeah, definitely, that definitely you know also working with other people but, but not so much of like um, I don't even have a Google Ad certification. I don't have an analytics certification. I didn't get my health certification. Like I don't know, I haven't done any of those things. Um, I'm sure I would learn something if I did those things. Not sadly but um, it's never been something that I kind of thought it was necessary to get in and get your hands dirty.

Speaker D: Yeah. Awesome. Um, before we wrap up, where are you at now and the Hypo group and what exactly are you guys doing there? Uh, since you've left about what is it a month and a half ago or. A month ago?

Speaker A: Yeah, about a month ago. Um, yep. So I'm getting to fulfill a dream of working with family, specifically my brother, uh and sister who have uh, been at this for a few years. Um and they come from more of like a staffing and services background um which is an interesting industry. Uh and I come from more now of a marketing background and we're kind of blending that a little bit um and uh, bringing a uh, digital approach to just a very high touch relationship which would be more like services background. So we found a niche specifically within insurance um, and financial services and local search engine optimization. Um so we do a little bit of, we do a little bit of uh, uh media buying, um we do a little bit of website development um and we, we've recently taken on some products that we're pretty excited about around search engine optimization, specifically around like um, local listings. So Google my business and Yelp and Bing, um a lot. What we're finding is you know my dad is still, he's been a State farm agent for 30 some years and he's a great State Farm agent. He's a great uh, he's an insurance expert. But um, when you are a small business owner like that and you're hustling you just don't have the time to, to learn some like very uh, base level local marketing stuff like how to optimize your Google my business. And so really our goal right now and our mission is to empower those um, small business owners to just capitalize on the low hanging fruit on search and on their local listings and it's been really fun. Love working with, uh, people who are on the ground level. You know, they're managing teams, they're meeting clients day to day. Um, so that's what we're working on right now. Um, and it's been fun.

Speaker D: It's, it's.

Speaker A: Every day is fresh and new and we're, um, living the dream.

Speaker D: Is it, is it nice to be able to come in now having some experience and kind of knowing at least your way around most of the tools and the platforms and setting up accounts and stuff?

Speaker A: Yeah, man. It doesn't feel that way though. Honestly, if I'm being real, it feels like I'm, um. I would say every day the last five years has felt the same in the sense that it's like, again, it's everything we've talked about. I don't know the answer that I'm going to go, but I can go. I know where I can find it or I know who I can ask. And, uh, um, certainly, you know, now that we're working with clients, you get more repetitions when you're working, working with clients. And so more repetitions, more experience in platform, that sort of thing. But, um, literally every day there's. There's something I don't know the answer to in, In a platform that at this point, you know, with specifically my business, I've got a lot of experience now. I'm probably, you know, it doesn't take a lot of experience to be highly educated compared to the rest of the population and a very niche platform like that. So. Yeah, um, yet still I find myself, um, learning. And the reality is that platform, like most of these platforms is changing constantly. Today I found a new feature that they rolled out that they haven't announced, but you can see that they're testing it. So it's just like, you just constantly have to be open to, like, open to getting turned around a little bit. And, um, you know, it's similar to the iOS rollout with Facebook that we've talked about. It's just like, you know, if you were, uh, if you were, um, the kind of professional that doesn't like change, you shouldn't be running Facebook ads. Everything's changing every day. And, uh, it would be very easy to cave into, like, the world is ending if, uh, if you were that way, especially because that's the way a lot of headlines will make you think. And the truth is, it's just another challenge to figure out and to get a competitive edge on. Right?

Speaker D: Yep. Cool. So let's, uh, Wrap up with, like, couple rapid fire questions and then, uh, we'll end the episode. So, um, if you were to choose between or recommend between, somebody becoming, uh, like, uh, what we call it, like a specialist or a generalist, what would you choose?

Speaker A: Generalist.

Speaker D: Yeah. Well, interesting. Um, ev. What do you feel like, um, you know, the world needs more of, or if you weren't a marketer, what would you be?

Speaker A: If I wasn't a marketer, what would I be? Uh, I, um, wanted to be a writer in school, and so I studied writing for my first year. I still think writing is extremely powerful.

Speaker D: Writing. I record everything I write every day. I believe it. Yes.

Speaker A: Uh, so I think I would go rider.

Speaker B: Cool.

Speaker D: Uh, the last one is what, uh, do you feel like the world needs more of? Is it, uh, Google Ads, people? Is it leaders in marketing when it comes to the marketing field? Like, what does the world need more of right now?

Speaker A: That's a good question. Um, I would say, uh, honesty. I think. I think m. The world needs more honest marketers. And what I mean by that is, yeah, I think the bent for marketing is always to go, you know, sensational and exaggerate, uh, because that's how you get. That's how you drive revenue. A lot of times, that's the easy button. But I think the very best, most aspirational marketing, at least that I aspire to, is honest to the core. And if we can get more of that, I think we're going to churn out better products and better companies, and

Speaker D: that'll do a lot of good. Great. Thanks, Mike. Thanks for joining us today.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me.