The Dirty Verdict · 2026-06-26 · 1h 7m
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
55 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Anthony Vessel, partner at Mark Whitehead and Associates in Houston, walks through the disability benefits and insurance law practice that handles claims denials for long-term disability, life insurance, and other employee benefits. The firm operates on a contingency fee basis and represents claimants whose insurance benefits have been wrongfully denied. Vessel explains the critical distinction between ERISA-governed employer plans (which go to federal court without jury trial) and non-ERISA private policies, emphasizing how the deck is stacked against claimants. He shares a current case involving an accelerated life benefit dispute where the insurer is offsetting payouts by calculating phantom future premiums to age 99 - a common tactic. Vessel stresses the importance of filing life insurance claims within the 30-day notice deadline after death, and notes that ERISA preempts state bad faith statutes like Texas DTPA, limiting remedies to back pay rather than punitive damages. The firm operates remotely from Colorado now, managing about 20 people. This episode is valuable for anyone handling insurance claim denials or advising clients with denied benefits.
ERISA plans are provided through your employer and must be litigated in federal court under federal law; non-ERISA plans are purchased privately from a broker or marketplace and may be subject to state court jurisdiction and state bad faith statutes like Texas DTPA.
Most life insurance policies have a 30-day hard deadline for notice of death, and if you miss it, you risk losing the claim entirely - so it's critical to contact the policy seller or insurance company immediately after a death.
No - ERISA preempts state bad faith statutes, so you can only recover back pay benefits that should have been paid, not punitive damages, even with successful litigation.
The firm operates on a contingency fee basis across different practice areas, meaning clients don't pay hourly rates upfront.
A provision in whole life insurance policies that allows the policyholder to access a portion of the death benefit while still living if their physical condition meets very stringent criteria defined in the policy.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode contains solid practical information about disability benefits law, ERISA claims, Social Security disability administration, and veterans benefits - useful for operators unfamiliar with these domains. However, much of the content consists of biographical tangents (Beaumont high school football, Jay Bruce, computer labs in law school, ADR tournament travel stories) that dilute insight density. The core legal substantive material is competent but relatively straightforward (ERISA preempts state law, ALJs use arbitrary-and-capricious standard, contingency fees are capped at $9,200 in SSA cases), not densely packed with non-obvious claims.
So we do. Like, that's kind of, kind, um, of how I broke into it is doing. You do disability, uh, like, like ERISA disability cases, the long term disability case I was talking about earlier. Those can go to mediation.
The way that the court interprets, the way that the court works in this is it's the, the insurance company is the arbiter and the final um, decider of whether or not you're disabled.
Anthony presents well-established legal frameworks (ERISA preemption, arbitrary-and-capricious review, ALJ hearing procedures) without significant reframing or novel insight. His personal anecdotes - the abusive ALJ story, the ChatGPT settlement reversal - are engaging but not strategic or contrarian thinking. The content relies on conventional disability-practice knowledge; a practitioner in the space would recognize most concepts.
If it's, um. Usually the short, quick, easy answer is if it's through your employer. Um, yeah.
the federal. If it goes to the federal court, the judge is looking at the closed record, which is primarily from the time that the claim was filed to the time that the final denial was issued.
Anthony Vessel is a solid mid-market practitioner: partner at a 20-person disability-benefits firm, runs a Social Security department, experienced mediator, and has scaled a practice with real organizational discipline (EOS system). He has genuine operational credibility and depth in a niche. However, he is not a household name, has not built a nationally-known firm, and has not published widely-cited work. He's credible for this specific domain but not at the tier of truly exceptional guest caliber.
I run our Social Security department. And of the, of the three practice areas, that's the one I probably spend the most time in.
you out of law school, join the firm and rose to partner. And now running a group of what, 20 people?
Anthony provides some concrete details: the $9,200 fee cap on SSA cases, the 25% contingency structure, specific insurance companies (MetLife, Lena, New York Life), office locations (59 and Bissonnet, Aldine Bender), and named individuals (Doug Barlow, Donald Dewberry, Christine Spray). However, he rarely quantifies outcomes, settlement ranges, or timelines with specificity. He references a case where he got a client 'almost double' a court award but gives no dollar figures. The 'triple threat client' example ('Mike the Mechanic') is illustrative but hypothetical, not drawn from specific cases with metrics.
So, um, for Social Security cases, they almost always go to the magistrate.
Social Security cases are fee capped at 9,200 on a contingency.
Peter and Bill ask reasonable questions and follow up on topics like ERISA preemption, fee structures, and ALJ behavior. However, the hosts frequently allow themselves to be sidetracked into reminiscing about high school sports, computer history, and family anecdotes. Bill does push back on insurance company incentives ('why would I not just deny everything?') and Peter asks about mediator demand, but few exchanges dig into contrarian positions or challenge Anthony's framing. The conversation is collegial and warm but lacks sharpness; there's minimal productive disagreement or pressure-testing of claims.
Well, I mean, I'm just saying, like, let's, you know, let's.
I mean you get the right court or you get the right case in the right jurisdiction and you know, like is that the right court? Perhaps.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
In this episode of The Dirty Verdict , Peter Taaffe and Bill Ogden sit down with attorney Anthony Vessel of Marc Whitehead & Associates for a deep dive into a practice area many lawyers encounter but few truly understand: disability benefits, insurance denials, Social Security disability, veterans disability claims, and ERISA litigation. Anthony walks through how he found his way from Beaumont, Texas, to Texas A&M, South Texas College of Law, and ultimately into the highly specialized world of disability and benefits law. The conversation breaks down the realities of long-term disability policies, the challenges claimants face when insurance companies deny benefits, and why ERISA cases can be so difficult for plaintiffs. The discussion also covers life insurance disputes, Social Security disability hearings, veterans disability claims, administrative law judges, and the importance of building a strong record before a case ever reaches federal court. Anthony also shares how his firm uses the Entrepreneurial Operating System to manage teams, track progress, and keep cases from falling through the cracks.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: Welcome back to another edition of the Dirty Very podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Peter Taff, joined as always by Bill Ogden.
Speaker B: Yep. No Kyle today?
Speaker A: No Kyle Herbert doing some kind of family obligations? Yeah. Kyle made the decision at age 50 to have a, uh, young child. So sometimes he has to go do things like that. So we're joined by a special guest, Anthony Bessel. Pronounce that right, Anthony? You did, yeah. From the law firm of Mark Whiteheading Associates.
Speaker C: Correct?
Speaker A: Am I. Did I get that right?
Speaker C: You got all of it right.
Speaker A: Okay, so there's a lot of topics we're going to cover today, Bill. Um, Whitehead and Associates is known in Houston as kind of the disability government, dealing with government benefits, other private benefits. All the stuff that lawyers usually, that a lot of lawyers that have volume practices get a lot of calls on, but that's not the bread and butter. So they call guys like you to take care of it. So I want to cover that. Um, you've developed your. Since joined the firm right out of law school. You developed a really good team, and you've kind of been a leader on m. Organization because this is a very much a practice. Ah, that needs some. Some organization. Uh, you're a mediator, is that right?
Speaker C: That's right.
Speaker A: Yeah. And, um, and you, how long you moved to Colorado recently?
Speaker C: Yeah, about a year ago. This week. Last year.
Speaker A: So you can. In Covid. Post. Covid days. You can live in Colorado and still run a firm. That's our practice in. In Houston. So we'll cover those things and anything else that Bill comes up with.
Speaker B: No, I got a ton of questions.
Speaker A: We won't get sidetracked on some, like, diversions. Yeah, Kyle, like usual. Uh, we'll keep this one focused. Okay. So, Anthony, um, you are born and raised in Beaumont, Texas.
Speaker C: That is right.
Speaker A: Westbrook High School.
Speaker C: Westbrook High School. Yeah.
Speaker B: We destroyed John High School.
Speaker A: Did you play them?
Speaker B: Yeah, our district was, like, spread. We had Beaumont, Westbrook and Beaumont. What was the other one?
Speaker C: Central Ozan. Kelly.
Speaker B: Kelly. But Kelly was a private. Yeah, well, we. I played them a bunch.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Well, Westbrook, um, I don't know who went there. When did you get out?
Speaker C: Like five. Uh, college.
Speaker A: I'm thinking of college guys. Uh, what's his name? Kendrick. Perkins, is it? Oh, yeah, he went to Oz.
Speaker C: He went to Ozone.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: Yeah, but Beaumont. We pronounced it Ozan.
Speaker A: Ozen.
Speaker C: Okay.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: And my, uh, my mom actually taught it. Ozan got.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: So taught him everything he knew about.
Speaker C: Oh, yeah, she taught him how to dunk. Yeah, My. My five foot five mother.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Good. Yeah. Good. Well, he's now a commentator, so he. He talks something. He's on. He.
Speaker B: He calls people out, though. I like it.
Speaker A: Yeah, he does. Uh, okay, so, Westbrook. So did you have. And you're obviously a lawyer, so did you have any lawyers in the family? I mean, obviously, Beaumont is a. I. I clerked for a federal judge there. Legendary judge. And there's all these, you know, Walter Humphrey and Wayne Rio and Tidy Low. Uh, all these great lawyers. Uh, so a lot of people growing up in Beaumont, that's kind of. Lawyers are the. Are the famous, uh, people in town. So, I don't know. Was that part of your decision to go to law or what. What drove you there?
Speaker C: So the first lawyer I think I ever spoke to meaningfully was Doug Barlow. Um, one of my really good friends, sky, uh, Barlow from high school. His dad's Doug, and Doug actually was the criminal defense attorney, uh, for the, um, defendants and the dragging death of James Byrd, Jr. Case out of Jasper, if y' all remember that one.
Speaker B: Hard to forget.
Speaker C: Yes.
Speaker A: Yeah, he had. When I was in federal court, um, he would. I remember his name from, uh, from federal cases and from that, too.
Speaker C: Yeah. And so, um, I'd be over at Sky's house. All the. All the guys are sitting around playing video games and, you know, drinking Cokes or whatever. And I'd go into the kitchen, and, you know, there Doug was, sitting at the kitchen counter watching the news, eating steak and, you know, drinking Coke with maybe something else in it. And he'd, uh, sit up and talk to me about being lawyer and all. I mean, he's, like I said, the first one who meaningfully talked to me about that. And, uh, yeah, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Mr. Barlow. That's how I would actually refer to him. And, uh, yeah, he's great lawyer, brilliant guy. And, uh, he really was the first one that kind of gave me a, uh, nudge into the field.
Speaker A: So he caught the bug a little bit there.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Yeah. And then you went. So you did not tell this. Tell us this until today, but you went to Texas A and M University.
Speaker C: That's right.
Speaker A: So we. Yeah. There you go. You got your ring.
Speaker B: I thought you'd be wearing a white jumpsuit.
Speaker C: Yeah, well, sorry to disappoint, Bill.
Speaker A: So Trey Barton was our one for the year, but you were such a compelling guest that we made an exception for number two. So, um. So, yeah, went to a. M. But you weren't in the core or Anything like you weren't super A and M?
Speaker C: No, I actually was a T student, A transfer student that. That whole story is longer than probably the podcast allows.
Speaker A: Where'd you start?
Speaker C: Okay, I started at North Texas. I got accepted into A and M at first, and I decided I wanted to be further away from everything, so I went to North Texas. That is in Denton.
Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's a much bigger school now. I mean, you move out there now, they put a bunch of money in big stadium. And um, town has come. I mean, anything, you know, Dallas is. Basically goes from Dallas to the border now, which includes Denton.
Speaker C: Well, fun, fun fact there is, you know, in Beaumont, they, you know, we think of ourselves as the golden Triangle. Beaumont, Port Arthur. And I believe either needle and important H's and um, both great.
Speaker B: Dude, no. Dude, they ruined my 12. We were going to this. We were. No Port Natures is who.
Speaker A: Who ruined us in baseball.
Speaker B: Yeah, we beat Nederland Port Natures. They took. Took my state championship away.
Speaker A: Good baseball.
Speaker B: 12 years old. Yeah, they were. You played bomb.
Speaker A: Yeah. What.
Speaker C: What did you play?
Speaker B: Catcher, actually.
Speaker A: Oh.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker B: Destroyed my knees and hips. Yeah. Nobody said. Tells you when you're six four, like, hey, maybe you should change positions, not get be squatting 247 for a decade. But when you're good, everybody's like, nah, don't tell him. Yeah, paying for it now.
Speaker C: So I played baseball. Um, I tried to play in high school at Westbrook, but, um, just so happened There were about six D1 athletes in my grade level or 5A. And Jay Bruce, the great Jay Bruce played, um, while I was. Ah. We're actually like half cousins thrice removed. Whatever. Whatever. As most Bowmonters are. But uh, yeah, no, I'm just kidding. Um, but yeah, maybe not. Yeah. And uh, you know, Jay trying to compete. I was lefty, so. Trying to compete for a spot over Jay Bruce. Yeah, that wasn't gonna happen.
Speaker A: Pitcher.
Speaker C: Uh, I played any spot they let me play, so first base primarily. But you know, I'm. I'm six foot on a good day. So. Uh, yeah, Jay Bruce is a. Is a larger man. And uh, we had like, literally, I think we had about three or four guys go actually to D1 and then a few others go D2 from that year. So I switched tennis. Varsity. Got my varsity jacket playing tennis. There you go. And then. But I went to North Texas and they did not have, uh, due to title nine, they did not have a, uh, men's uh, NCAA baseball team. They had an NCAB team which is club level so we got this. The school paid for us to, you know, gave us per diem, um, gave us, you know, reimbursed, uh, us for travel expenses and all that. And we got to play across the state, other. Other, you know, club teams, but it wasn't at that level of ncaa, of course. But that was a lot of fun. That was. That was how I spent my time at INS at North, uh, Texas.
Speaker B: How long were you there?
Speaker C: One year.
Speaker B: One year.
Speaker C: And then my back. A and M. Well, no, then I went to Lamar University in Beaumont. My grandmother got really sick and moved in with my mom, and so I moved back home to kind of help out with all that, uh, after Hurricane Rita. Um, just a bunch of junk happened in Beaumont, um, at that time, too.
Speaker B: They definitely have a baseball team.
Speaker A: Oh, yeah, they're pretty good.
Speaker C: And I did.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: Jim Gilligan, who's a great famous coach there. Yeah, I went to a few of his camps. Wasn't as interested in me as I would have hoped.
Speaker A: Right, so then.
Speaker C: Then A and M. Uh, then A and, um.
Speaker A: M. Got it. Yeah.
Speaker C: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker A: So then graduated from. From there. Got your ring.
Speaker C: That's right.
Speaker A: And then go straight into South Texas.
Speaker C: That's right.
Speaker A: Great. And overlap a little bit with Bill. Yep.
Speaker B: Couple years.
Speaker C: Yeah. I graduated in 2012.
Speaker B: I was 13.
Speaker C: You're in 13? Yeah.
Speaker A: So. And so did you go right into working with Mark Whitehead's firm?
Speaker C: I did. I clerked there during law school, and, um, he kept me on after I passed the bar, so.
Speaker A: So no, no offense to your practice or Mr. Whitehead's practice, but probably not many young lawyers go, I want to go into disability benefits.
Speaker C: I was. I saw the, uh. It was a clerk ad on. Was it called Stanley?
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: The.
Speaker C: What was that, Like a. What you call, like a job post? It was more than that.
Speaker B: Like, kind of like, like a, ah, portal. LinkedIn minus the social media aspect. Yeah, it was a portal thing you logged into and they would. There was stuff about, like, classes and on. On, uh, on campus interviewing and stuff like that. Yeah.
Speaker C: Ah, yeah.
Speaker B: I did not look there. Uh, I was. My resume did not bode well against, you know, other people's.
Speaker A: Just so y' all know, when I was in law school, there was something new that you could go down to the library and get on a computer, and it was called the Internet. It was really cool. You. But you had to go to that computer to, like, go look on one of. There was, like, 50 web pages total.
Speaker B: Like, first. First day of law school was the first Time I ever took a computer to class.
Speaker A: Really?
Speaker B: I mean, I went to Sam Houston State. All right. No offense. The criminal justice program was not cracking any heads, you know, intellectually.
Speaker A: Oh.
Speaker C: Um, I learned that, though that might be true for me, too.
Speaker B: I don't know that I had a desktop at home.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker B: But I, you know, I never brought a computer. And then I got to law school, and everybody, Everybody, I was like, what are we writing on? Like, is this like a word, doc? Like, what is there? I had no idea. I didn't. I actually really didn't know how to study when I got to law school. E me learn quickly.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: People. Uh, for me that had computers, I mean, it was literally a suitcase. It's like a big ass suitcase. Yeah.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Okay, so. But apparently South Texas was way ahead of the curve, and so you could go online and see these ads, and so you see an ad for this firm.
Speaker C: Yeah. And to your point, I, uh, What was going through my head was not like, oh, yeah, disability law. That's a really sexy area of the law. That's really something really attractive to me that I want to go dive into.
Speaker B: But 20 bucks an hour is 20 bucks an hour. Yeah.
Speaker C: Mark wasn't paying me 20 bucks an hour.
Speaker B: Ken Shafer paid me $10 an hour.
Speaker A: Yeah, but you only had to drive.
Speaker B: Uh, yeah. Also brand new to downtown one ways. And that car cost more than my entire education. Like, white knuckling it as he's, like, sitting in the passenger seat.
Speaker A: So you, you, whatever, you see that and you decide, well, yeah. Huh.
Speaker C: I get in there and I'm like, whoa. I'm actually helping people that need it. And I'm helping people keep their lights on, um, by getting their benefits and that sort of thing. I'm like, okay, this is like, you know, don't knock it till you try it and keep an open mind, because I. I thought it was pretty cool.
Speaker B: How does it work pay wise? Like, clients pay you by the hour, or is it statutorily attorney's fees included?
Speaker C: It's contingency fee.
Speaker B: Really?
Speaker C: Uh, yeah. And for our different practice areas, it's a little bit different for each.
Speaker B: How about that? Okay.
Speaker C: Yeah. So.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker B: Still at that.
Speaker A: So then you out of law school, join the firm and rose to partner. And now running a group of what, 20 people?
Speaker C: Yeah, more or less.
Speaker A: Okay, so let's. So let's get into the. What's the world of disability or whatever y' all do all the different parts. Like what. What are the different practice areas? Um, or the types of cases you all handle. And not just. They're not cases like lawsuits, but like matters that y' all handle.
Speaker C: Yeah. So our bread and butter is our long term disability, or we'll just, we call it now our insurance practice. So that encompasses, um, disability claimants. You know, you, let's say you work for Walmart, you get hurt. It doesn't have to be connected to work. It's not workers comp. We don't do workers comp. But it's you get hurt hanging your Christmas lights or whatever. You fall off the ladder and uh, you make a claim on your disability insurance policy that you have through your work or privately, whatever, and they deny you, as insurance companies do. Then they call us, we sue, or we negotiate or whatever we do to try to get your benefits turned back on, or we sue them in federal court and, you know, go that route.
Speaker A: So you, you file a lawsuit, does it have to be in federal court?
Speaker C: A lot of the times it does. It's governed under the statute. Erisa. Uh, E, R, I, S A and I. Yeah, erisa.
Speaker A: Uh, you don't get a jury trial on those. Or.
Speaker C: No, you don't. I don't. Which. Not fun.
Speaker A: So what qualifies for an ERISA plan versus a not ERISA plan?
Speaker C: If it's, um. Usually the short, quick, easy answer is if it's through your employer. Um, yeah.
Speaker A: So if your employer provides that long term disability benefits package, got to go that way. If you buy it separately in the marketplace from a broker or something, that, that could be outside the erisa, Correct?
Speaker C: Correct.
Speaker A: Okay, that's. So I won't bury the lead here. The whole idea here is to give just enough information to know if anyone has any of these types of claims. They really need to call these guys.
Speaker B: Just read an ERISA policy and you'll quickly get rid of it. It is the most complicated, and I'm just talking just from a lean resolution perspective, much less like a denial of benefits. I. They're intense.
Speaker A: Any. Anyone who dabbles their toe in it will quickly realize the, the deck is stacked against you and you need to have. So thus you need to have an experienced, um, knowledgeable person on your side. So, um, okay, so long term disability, that is. And again, we need to break down some things. That's. If you're injured, you can't work, you've got a insurance policy that's supposed to pay you some portion of your weekly wage or your salary to cover you until you can get back to work or maybe never get back to Work.
Speaker C: Yeah. So that's why I kind of put that. That practice area under the umbrella of insurance, because we also do life insurance denials, um, and different types of claims you can make under life insurance cases. Like, I've got a case right now that's called an accelerated life benefit, where, uh, my client, she's so bad off that there is a clause in the policy where it accelerates her life benefit while she's still technically living, but she's just. So that they. It triggered, uh.
Speaker B: What do you mean bad off?
Speaker C: Like her physical conditions? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry about that.
Speaker B: No, you're good. I didn't know if it was, like, financially or something.
Speaker C: No, no, no. Her physical conditions meet the very, very stringent criteria of triggering the, uh.
Speaker A: And she. And she wants the money right now, probably.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker B: Pete needs. Probably the word we're looking for.
Speaker A: Yeah, no, I mean, I'm sure there's. There's care. Medical care needs that require the money to help her. Right?
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: So do you. Do you have to advocate for that or.
Speaker C: Well, so on this particular case, they are. They have given her an offer. They've said, okay, you've triggered your, you know, this clause of the policy. We're going to pay you, but then they give you this. This pricing sheet where they. They give you the bottom line number. And what's just.
Speaker A: Really.
Speaker C: I mean, you got to hand it to insurance companies on this one. But, uh, they. There's this one part of it that they're. They're saying that her, um, somehow accelerated her premiums to year 99, age 99. So they've.
Speaker B: They've offsetting it.
Speaker C: They're offsetting what they're paying her the payout, which is already just a percentage of what the life insurance policy would pay. But then, like, oh, wait, let's subtract, like, tens of thousands of dollars, because we're going to subtract 99 years of life premiums from this before we give you your amount. So that's the dispute, I assume it
Speaker B: has to be a whole life policy.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: If that's the case, can't she just borrow against it? Or. I guess some people are not in a position where they can. I don't know how that works.
Speaker C: Well, I mean, we're. It's still kind of a fresh case, so we may explore that. But, uh, right now, the dispute is they've made her this offer, and I'm saying, hey, will you talk to me? Can we talk about how y' all calculated this? Because I don't See where this is lined out in the policy. And I don't see what's activating y' all to get to do this. And I got an email from the insurance adjuster on Friday saying, hi, Mr. Vessel, I've received all of your requests to talk to me. That's something I can't fulfill right now. Basically, I can't have a phone call with you. I'm like, all right, well, lawsuit it is. We're going to court.
Speaker A: Because I can't email you. I just can't call you.
Speaker B: Do you get. Do you. Do you get the benefits of any of the insurance, like, DTPA statutes on, like, bad faith or anything like that? I don't know how that. I know it from a different angle.
Speaker C: That comes in under state law. And so we do have some cases where that would come in, but when we're talking about ERISA disability, that's federal, so that would not apply.
Speaker B: So they're saying the ERISA is, like, passes the Erie doctrine to trump the state law, even though it's on point. And there's not, like, a direct federal legislation that does that.
Speaker C: Well, I mean, you don't. You don't use Texas state law like
Speaker A: you use erisa preempts the.
Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, so you use spit circuit law or supreme court law.
Speaker B: Best of luck to you.
Speaker C: I know. Yeah. It's not fun.
Speaker A: What are some of the most common? Um, denial, like life insurance. Someone dies, and then after the fact, someone makes a claim, and they're like, oh, never mind. Here's your premium back. What are some of the common, uh, denominators?
Speaker C: Good question. I mean, we don't have as much issue with. With those types of situations. Um, but my general advice to anybody who. Well, not advice, I guess, suggestion, education. I'm not cutting out advice. This is not advice.
Speaker A: Um, but dirty verdict does not provide legal advice. Consult a true lawyer.
Speaker B: Yeah. Call him. And then he'll give it to you. Yeah.
Speaker C: If someone passes away, the very first thing you should do is make a claim on that life insurance policy. Because a lot of them have a 30 day hard stop deadline for, like,
Speaker B: a notice of death.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Really good.
Speaker C: Yes. Whoever.
Speaker A: Whoever sold it to you and made a commission is probably the person that.
Speaker C: Right. Like just you call.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: Make a claim. Be able to be able to preserve that. That claim somehow, some way. Send an email to somebody. Call somebody. I mean, obviously going direct to the guy that's on the policy or the guy that sold the policy. That's the best thing if they're even
Speaker B: still alive or exactly open for business.
Speaker C: And like, I hate to say this mean to be morbid or anything, but m. When my mom passed away, like that was something that we knew to do right away. Like that was the very first thing we did was call, make a claim on that immediately. Because 30 days doesn't really seem like
Speaker B: it gives you time to grieve.
Speaker C: No, it doesn't. Like we did that a day or two after and it's like again, I'm trying to go morbid, but it just. That's. I knew that's like get that knocked out immediately. Not advice, I thought.
Speaker A: Yeah, good point, good point. You made observation.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Okay. Ah. What else would you say on that? Like what are some other uh, pitfalls on the life insurance? Obviously they, a lot of times will be. You made a misrepresentation in the application about your medical condition.
Speaker C: Yeah, it can be stuff like that. But really, you know, we do life insurance. I don't have to do too many disputes on that. Um, it's, it can be on
Speaker B: um,
Speaker C: timing of payments or you know, them being reluctant to pay for some re. You know, some, some silly clerical, uh, reason or transactional reason that they give. Not uh, pay. But I would say 95% of what we do is disability claim related. But um, you know, people get these umbrella of benefits and so that's also part of it too because it's likely it's usually connected to their other benefits. So we represent all those.
Speaker B: Is there any punitive action towards the insurance company for like a denial like that? So say they, I have a million dollar policy and they, you know, pull us around for a year litigating it. Do they does is interest running assume or how or are they, you know, is there any. Are they incentivized by not paying it as long as they can?
Speaker C: Yes and yes. I mean you get the right court or you get the right case in the right jurisdiction and you know, like is that the right court? Perhaps. But um, your run of the mill long term disability case under erisa, all you're really going to be able to get are the back pay. The uh, back pay benefits. Yeah, just what they should have paid. Not even the full policy, what they should have paid in back pay. Because the way that the court interprets, the way that the court works in this is it's the, the insurance company is the arbiter and the final um, decider of whether or not you're disabled. So like in a, let's Say a Social Security disability case. Court's deciding, is he disabled? Is he not? But in a long term disability case, I tell my clients I think of inception. It's like a dream within a dream. They're reviewing the review that the insurance company gave. So it's.
Speaker B: So they have. I mean, so there's no. If I'm an insurance company, why would I not just deny everything they do?
Speaker C: That's why I exist. Uh, that's why it sucks because they, there's, there's almost no teeth in the law and it's so frustrating.
Speaker A: Who's M. That's private. Long term disability. How about Social Security disability? Do you all do that too?
Speaker C: That's actually the department I run.
Speaker A: Okay?
Speaker C: I run our Social Security department. And of the, of the three practice areas, that's the one I probably spend the most time in.
Speaker A: The question is, I had this thought that people would be on long term private disability, and then it would seem like after a while the private company would push the person to go get on Social Security disability. Is that a thing? Am I right there?
Speaker C: You could not be more right because there is always a clause in the policy that requires them to apply for Social Security disability and any other offsetable income sources that they may be eligible for. Because then what you, what they get is. It's a double edged sword for the insurance company. So they make you apply for Social Security disability and then if you are granted Social Security disability, they're of the hug. Great. If I, if the insurance company owed you 3,000amonth and you get 2,000amonth from Social Security, they only have to pay the one to make you whole at the three, you don't get to double dip and get five. So there's that. But then on the other end, if you are denied Social Security disability, well, they get to turn around and say, well, Social Security didn't find you disabled, why should we? But then if, if you win and you show them your Social Security disability award letter, they'll say, well, it's a, it's a different standard. We're not beholden to that. That's a different, that's a totally different legal standard. That's. That doesn't affect our standard of disability.
Speaker B: Are the defense firms that are defending these, Are they the usual assessment? Do you have like, kind of. I don't know any defense firms that do this, but like, is it a small group or is it.
Speaker A: Do.
Speaker B: Do a lot more defense firms do it than I think I would suspect.
Speaker C: It's similar to, um, you know, I'll bet your car wreck attorneys and stuff, but Allstate hires the same.
Speaker B: Yeah, well, with that it's probably a little bit more broad just because of the vault.
Speaker A: The volume is fair enough.
Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like for example, there are some frequent flyers. I know if I have a case with MetLife, I'm going to get this lawyer. I know I've got a case with Lena or New York Life. I'm going to have this lawyer.
Speaker B: Who's the worst offensive lawyer in this film? Let's dock some names. They don't have to.
Speaker A: I'm just kidding.
Speaker C: You know, they're. If, if I thought for a little bit I could give you some. But the lawyers really aren't usually the, the, the ones that grind my gears. It's usually the, the, the claims representative internal that are just being obstinate and not wanting to cooperate.
Speaker B: Well, I mean, I don't understand why they would cooperate. Because that money sits in their account. They're making interest on it. So the longer they hold out, the more money they're gonna make.
Speaker A: Exactly. In Social Security disability. I mean, we all pay premiums for that as part of our taxes, right? So we're all, we're all buying social long term disability through Social Security. So why would anyone want to buy private long term disability?
Speaker C: That's a great question. Because they've got really good salespeople and they promise these, these potential claimants the world and tell them, you know, we're going to be here for you when you know, you can rest easy at night because if something bad happens, you'll have an income.
Speaker B: So it's a scam in Europe, in my opinion.
Speaker A: It's opinion.
Speaker C: Some of these policies are not worth the paper they're written on. It's very frustrating and trying to explain to my clients it's the. So one of the more difficult things is, you know, we settle a lot of these cases because the, the standard of review in a lot of these cases is abusive discretion.
Speaker B: Tough standard.
Speaker C: Arbitrary and capricious.
Speaker B: Yeah. The worst one you can.
Speaker A: So you're saying when the judge reviews it, they've got to find that the underlying decision maker was arbitrary and capricious. Which is, what's that mean? Like effed up? Like made no sense? Like had. No, no, um, common sense, logic, whatever basis.
Speaker C: They apply the rational basis test. So if they can find any rational basis for why they denied my client, then, uh, you can't overcome it.
Speaker B: So when you're litigating, you'll have experts that you Hire on policies or is it because you're just interpreting the contractual obligations? So do you have to bring in like a, you know, former claims rep or something as an expert?
Speaker C: So a lot of that work. So here's the other fun part. Um, the, it's a closed record case. So the, the, the, the federal. If it goes to the federal court, the judge is looking at the closed record, which is primarily from the time that the claim was filed to the time that the final denial was issued. So that those are your bookends, four corners. So whatever's put into the file during that appellate process or that claims process, that's everything. So if we're doing it, we don't bring out experts at, ah, trial. We don't get a trial, but we don't do it during the litigation process. By that time it's too late.
Speaker B: So this is all done by submission.
Speaker C: So it's all done administratively. So at first, because that's the thing, it has to be ripe to file. So you have to get to that final denial before you can even file in federal court. So you have to go through their entire administrative appeal process in house with the insurance company first. So that's when we hire medical experts, vocational experts, folks like that.
Speaker B: I assume you got to be kind of tight with it though, because any experts or anything you bring in is less money there is for the client to take.
Speaker C: That's right.
Speaker B: So. And I, I know I don't, I deal with it, but not probably nearly as much as you. But like, how difficult is it? Just communicating with the client because they're older. And I assume that your average age for your clients is significantly higher than mine. Well, and in trying to say like, no, no, no, this is what it says, this is what that means. And then just being like, what, you know, why I was in the war or you know, whatever they say our
Speaker C: client sweet spot is age 50 to age 65 or 64 or so.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker C: So because as they get older, they're no longer working, they kind of made it past it. And they're probably collecting SSD or what or Social Security retirement at that point or their pension if they've got one or whatever. But like if once you get past the age of 50 and I'm jumping around a little bit, but Social Security treats you much more favorably in a lot of cases.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker C: Um, so that's our sweet spot. So perhaps not older than your. Not that much older.
Speaker B: Right. Yeah. I was thinking Everybody was 75.
Speaker C: Yeah, no, by then they're, they're not working, so they probably don't have a policy that applies to them. And they're probably on Social Security retirement.
Speaker B: Do they apply actuary tables for life expectancy or is it the. Is everything up 99 years or whatever you said earlier?
Speaker C: So that was a totally. That was like a example. That was a totally different case on a life insurance. Okay, so that one was, uh, unusual and different from what I'm talking about now.
Speaker B: I got you.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C: Uh, cp.
Speaker B: We don't have to pretend like we're dumb.
Speaker A: Yeah. So what other, what other areas do y' all would cover at your firm?
Speaker C: Veterans. We do veterans disability claims.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker C: And those are fine.
Speaker A: Those are filed against the va.
Speaker C: Correct.
Speaker A: And that's. So veteran qualifies for disability. Um, can it, does it have to be service related or is it, uh, just. They get, they're working, you know, they retire from the military, they're working, they get injured in some way.
Speaker C: Yeah. So, um, to be eligible for veterans disability benefits, they, the, the impairment that you're alleging, it has to be service connected. And so there are elements to service connection that you have to prove up. And um, that's the first step generally. And then, and this, this one's unique because the other two, you're either found disabled or you're not. It's binary. This one, there's percentage ratings and there's a lot of other different qualifiers like TDIU and all this other stuff. You can get homebound benefits. Uh, you can get all sorts of other stuff that. And, and this is the practice area, admittedly, that I, I picked up the latest, um, um.
Speaker B: So is the VA not as forthcoming as we think? Behind closed doors? Allegedly.
Speaker A: So are they harder to deal with than the private insurance companies?
Speaker C: I would not say that, um, I would not say that they're harder to deal with. I think that the people at the va, uh, are very kind and helpful and really, really care about our veterans. The people that work there. I haven't experienced too many people at the VA that I'm like, man, that guy's a knucklehead and I really don't like him. Um, the people that deny my claims, I feel that way about. But, uh, we get to do these higher level review, uh, calls. And so they're, they're very, very informal conference that I have with a higher level officer. So there's your guys that do the, um, at the regional offices that, uh, just, you know, do their rubber stamp denials and deny my claims on paper when I write, you know, my brilliant Appeals and they'll just deny them. But then I'll go up to a higher level review and it's an informal conference. I pick up the phone and some guy calls me, hey sir, how you doing? Blah, blah, blah, let's talk about this case. And I just walk them through the evidence and then they make it. And they're uh, almost invariably thank me for serving the veterans. I'm like, thank you for serving the veterans. Because they're like how can we. Their, their approach is how can I help fix the problem from below? How can I get your veteran on benefits?
Speaker B: Is that coming from the same pot of money though as the Social Security and uh, no.
Speaker C: Two different situations. Yeah.
Speaker B: Does it. So on going back just a second, I know at least I saw a uh, hot mic moment with Mike Johnson talking about cleaning up Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and not making cuts. Cleaning it up. Um, does that cause you any concern as far as what you're already seeing in that industry and what it might be if they start denying or cutting funds?
Speaker C: I mean every, every day's an adventure with, with, with that group. I never quite know what's going to happen. Um, for example, to start to kick things off in, what was it, 2024, uh, they. Or no, 2025. Excuse me. They just laid off like 11% of Social Security. So I uh, think doge kick. Yeah, I think it was like a 47,000 person organization and I think they cut like 6,700, 7,200 people just like that.
Speaker B: Did, did you see pretty quickly the effects of that?
Speaker C: I assume it just causes a lot of instability and confusion, you know, and then there's like this arbitrary reorganization of it. There, there used to be this, um, they had organized the administration under regions and had um, all these different organizational hubs and now they just redid it. And I don't know what the. I don't think really, uh, perhaps I'm ignorant on it, but I don't know what effect it had or how it improved or didn't improve anything, but it just seemed very arbitrary to me.
Speaker B: I uh, think a lot of this
Speaker C: doer shuffle first did just seemed like they shuffled the deck.
Speaker B: We just got to do stuff. We're not sure what, but we're going to do it.
Speaker A: That's what they did for a couple months and then, then they realized they
Speaker B: couldn't cut $2 trillion and so moved
Speaker A: on down the road. Took SpaceX, took.
Speaker B: Uh, with regards to. I know there's been a lot of uh, news coverage regarding like The DOGE team and. And the data that they got from the Social Security office while they were there and that. And then it was disclosed or provided to third parties that are not government agencies. Do you see any of that from your side of it?
Speaker C: I. I wish I could comment intelligently about that, but I can't. I don't know too much.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker B: Just curious.
Speaker C: No, no, it's a good question. I wish I knew.
Speaker A: It was already kind of a hassle, and now it's even more of a hassle.
Speaker C: Right, Got it.
Speaker A: Okay. Any. Any interesting cases, situations? I mean, how does this work? Are. Are y' all in by comp, or you're in a conference room and you're in a hearing, or is it zoom. Or how are these administrators? Obviously some are in federal court. We know what that looks like. But otherwise, where's the forum for resolving these things?
Speaker C: Yeah, so, you know, we were talking a little bit as we. As we all got here today about, um, you know, pre Covid. Post Covid. That kind of thing. So pre Covid, um, earlier in my career, it. They have these administrative offices around. Um, they're. They used to be called odars, Office of Disability Adjudication and Review, I think, and now they're called OHO Offices. Another admin thing is Office of Hearing Operations. I don't know if they switched it back or whatever. Um, but they have two of them in Houston. Uh, one of them used to be down at 59 and Bissonnet, um, very interesting part of town. And then up at, uh, Aldine Bender. So, um, again, 59, but 59 at the Aldean Bender exit, another interesting part of town. And, uh, they're just these little governmental buildings, um, with inadequate parking. Uh, but the new one, um, I think that's the Houston west office down at 59 Bissonnet. They moved and now there is adequate parking lot. But, uh, yeah, you do these, ah, hearings in basically a conference room similar to this one. The judge has a bench, and then you have conference tables.
Speaker B: Who are the judges?
Speaker C: They're administrative law judges.
Speaker B: Well, I guess. Like, who's applying for that? It's appointment, right?
Speaker C: Yeah, you just apply. Um, and alj.
Speaker A: Who are they employees of?
Speaker C: Uh, yeah.
Speaker A: So these are done like in a afternoon or a couple hours average, an
Speaker C: hour, hour and a half.
Speaker A: And are you put on. Do you put on medical evidence by affidavit?
Speaker C: It's all on the. It's another closed record case. So.
Speaker A: Uh.
Speaker C: Well, closed record's not correct. It's a record case. You Just you're submitting what is there. They exhibit it. And there's a five day rule. So you have five business days before the hearing to submit all your medical evidence. And that will automatically go into the record. If it's within that five day window, then the judge can make a ruling on whether or not they want to admit it or not.
Speaker B: Uh, federal ALJ is, once appointed, serve indefinitely as long as you have good behavior. So it's kind of like a federal judge for, you know, don't get impeached. Looking at you. Clarence Thomas.
Speaker A: Interesting there.
Speaker C: Okay.
Speaker A: One guy that, uh, anything get like, wild because you. Did your client come testify?
Speaker C: Yeah, so early in my career. There's this one guy that used to be here, and he was down at the bissonette office, and he would yell at people and turn purple in the face and just be belligerent for no reason. Yell at claimants, yell at poor, disabled, sick people. And he was just, uh. And, uh, here I am, this young baby lawyer, shaking in my boots. But I had this client that is, you know, this white collar, uh, you know, accountant that in his 50s or so, and he had a heart condition that was connected to an anxiety condition where he had to keep his stress levels low or else it was triggering heart attacks and stroke, you know, things like that.
Speaker A: So I got a good idea. Let's stress him out. Ah.
Speaker C: So he was tripping over some little menial fact, like something about, do you take the trash out or does your wife take the. And the judge is yelling at him and berating him. Well, Mr. Smith, what is it? Does your wife take out the trash or do you take out the trash? And he's just yelling at my client, braiding my client. And again, I'm a little baby lawyer, I don't know what to do. And so I just start yelling at the judge because I found that's not
Speaker B: as effective as you think.
Speaker A: But in the moment, hey, there's no. There's no bailiff there. I mean, no one's gonna take it to jail.
Speaker C: The thing is, yeah, it's an administrative law judge. So there's no bailiff, no contempt powers.
Speaker B: You ever get to rip any curse words?
Speaker C: Uh, I, um, might.
Speaker B: Is there a record?
Speaker A: Yeah, there is a record.
Speaker C: But I start, sorry, there's a court reporter, there's a hearing monitor. So, yeah, they do a digital recording of it. And so, yeah, I'm like, hey, judge, you can't talk to my client like that. He's got a anxiety condition and you're triggering his Anxiety. He's going to give him a heart attack. My client's literally crying. He's a grown man. He's crying because this guy's stressing him the hell out. And then the judge turns to me. It's like, well, Mr. Vessel, I have the floor questioning the claimant right now, and I'll question him however I want. And then whenever I'm done, it'll be your turn, and you can question him however you want. He's purple in the face and yelling at me, whatever. But he did calm down. He did chill out. And then he, like, actually kind of treated me with a little bit of respect after that.
Speaker B: So kind of reminds me of my firm. Once you do that once everybody's like, all right, yeah, he's not as soft as we thought.
Speaker A: All right, well, good. Well, yeah, so a little bit of a Wild west flavor.
Speaker C: There's no rules of evidence either.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: So it's just. Yeah. I was actually, uh. I was writing some ideas in this book on, like, what to talk about when I came here.
Speaker A: That was.
Speaker C: And I literally wrote Wild west about ALJ hearings because. And then, like, I don't want to take away from the profession because there are some judges that are brilliant, great judges and great human beings. You just get the spectrum like any other court, you know? But this guy, he's. I'll tell you his name after the after, but you'll Google him and you'll be. Yeah. Impressed.
Speaker A: Any, uh, any. Any other interesting stories or cool stories
Speaker B: happening when you do have to file in federal court and they don't do, typically, will they consent to the magistrate, or you guys got to go in front of the judge?
Speaker C: So for Social Security cases, they almost always go to the magistrate.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: Uh, and it's just briefing practice, just motion of summary judgment.
Speaker B: So it's not even hearings, really.
Speaker C: Generally not nice. Yeah. Um, but, yeah, one other story that came to mind was, again, earlier in my career, there's one judge, you know, he. He reminded me of Agent Smith from the Matrix. Just that really dry and emotionless, not fun, not warm and friendly kind of personality. And, uh, I go to this man, and this is what I miss about pre Covid days was you'd go down to the hearing offices and the age spectrum for these Social Security claim or Social Security claims. Representatives are all just baby attorneys or ancient practitioners. There's almost no in between. Um, I think Mark was the only in between at that time. Like someone in their late 40s, early 50s, but everybody else is, like, in their 20s or their 80s and that's it. And there is this, this great attorney, this great Social Security attorney, I'm going to name drop, Donald Dewberry. I love Mr. Dewberry. He's like the coolest, funniest guy.
Speaker A: And he works for the other side. No, no, he's a disability plaintiff.
Speaker C: He's another claimant's representative attorney.
Speaker A: I mean, is Mr. Dewberry still with us?
Speaker C: I haven't talked to Mr. Dewberry in some time. And uh, Donald and on the bar, I haven't talked to him in a few years. But I have the utmost respect for him. He's a tremendous human being and I love him.
Speaker A: All right, I want to switch gears to management. You used a term that, uh, I was not familiar with called entrepreneurial Operating System. Is that E.D. e, O S. Okay, what is that in the concept of running a team?
Speaker C: So, um, EOS is a system. There's another book called the Flywheel Effect
Speaker A: and
Speaker C: Traction, Traction's the other book. And these two books are the basis of, uh, EOS or EOS comes from these books or borrows from these books a lot. But basically it's just a system for how you organize your workflow in some sort of organization. And it sets a cadence and it sets an organization system that your, your whole team can get on board with. It's objective, everyone follows the same rules kind of thing.
Speaker B: So is, is the EOS like universal or it gives you the tools to make your own?
Speaker C: Yes and yes. Like the, the core concepts are universal, but you build it how you want to build it in your firm or organ, you know, whatever kind of organization. It's not just for lawyers. Yeah, okay.
Speaker A: Um, and so what is it you talked about? There's different roles that people have.
Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, the two main roles, there's the visionary and that's the person that's coming up with the goals or the ideas or the, uh, the. Where are we trying to move? They're. They're the bus driver. Right. They're the person that's trying to figure out where do we want to go and how are we going to get there. And that kind of.
Speaker A: They're the bus driver or they're like the map maker who.
Speaker C: Yeah, that's probably a better analogy. I was just thinking about that. I think that's a better analogy. Is there, they might be the, um, what is it? The, the, the travel, um.
Speaker A: Yeah, travel agent.
Speaker C: Travel agent. They're the travel agent and then the bus driver is the implementer.
Speaker A: Got it.
Speaker C: And so they're executing. They're making sure that, that you deliver on time. And we break it up into quarters. So like, you usually have your quarterly goals. Your big goals are called rocks in the system.
Speaker A: What does that stand for?
Speaker C: It just mean like a, like a chunk.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker C: Of granite or whatever. And um, the reason they call it a rock is say you put, say you have like a transparent glass jar.
Speaker A: Mhm.
Speaker C: And you put a big rock into it. You can see that through all the other little things that, you know, how you fill your day, how you fill your time or your quarter. You have like little emails, little calls. These are little pebbles and granular pieces of sand. But the big rock is the thing that is the, the substance.
Speaker A: And the old story about the professor who came in and put the rock in and then put the sand in and then put the water in.
Speaker C: That's exactly it. Yeah. And so, um, your rock is your big one, two or three goals that you have per quarter, per time period. And then to accomplish your rock, you have milestones. And so let's say our rock is to, um, lose 20 pounds this quarter. Something like that. So then your milestone would be add a calorie tracker app to your phone. The next one is to buy a gym membership. The next one is to go to, uh, like hit 50 gym visits that quarter. Or, you know, so you're, you're hitting your milestones so that hopefully that will be in furtherance of accomplishing your rock.
Speaker A: And you put this pen to paper every quarter. Yeah, the team.
Speaker C: Absolutely.
Speaker A: Who decides who's the, uh, visionary and who's the implementer.
Speaker C: So the visionary is Mark.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker C: And that would be because he, his name is on the door.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: And the implementer, uh, is our coo, Diana.
Speaker A: Got it.
Speaker C: Poor Diana. She has her work cut out for her with Mark and she does a very graceful job. She does a great job at implementing because Mark just has wild ideas all the time. And a lot of them, a lot of times they're, you know, he's a big dreamer and they're good ideas, but drives everybody nuts, particularly Diana. And, uh, they have their own podcast, of course.
Speaker A: Yeah. And, uh, what's it called?
Speaker C: Oh, A Successful Barrister Podcast. Almost forgot it. Yeah, that's it.
Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. What do they talk about on that, like, ecosystem kind of leadership stuff?
Speaker C: They, yeah, they, they, they try to riff on each other. Mark tries to frustrate Diana. He does a great job of it. And they just kind of talk about, like, goals and things that they're doing and this, this kind of stuff, like law. Law Firm, they do a lot of marketing talking also. But, um. Yeah.
Speaker A: Are you involved in marketing for your firm?
Speaker C: No, I, I'd like to be, but I've got plenty of other stuff to keep me busy.
Speaker A: Okay. Uh, Bill, are you looking up eos?
Speaker B: I'm, um, looking up some of the aspects of it as implementing it in
Speaker A: your firm as we speak.
Speaker B: I cannot imagine having the time. Oh, yeah, because, I mean, this is something, from my understanding, this is something you build and are constantly building on.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker B: And I don't know how long it would take me to sit down and.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker B: Build the, you know, year one.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: So, yeah, I mean, we went off. We still go off site. Um, but we went off site and there is, ah, I forget the actual name of her role. Her name is Christine Spray. And she's this brilliant woman that puts on, um, she teaches you how to EOs, basically, and she guides you through it. But I don't remember her title, the title of her role, but she is a steward or a representative of eos, and, um, she walks you through it. And so you go quarterly. And when we all sit in a conference room for a day or two and just brainstorm and just say, hey, what. What problems need fixing? Hey, which problems aren't fixed well enough? Hey, what's our next goal for next quarter? What's our five year plan? Three year plan, one year plan, 90 day plan?
Speaker B: I'm just trying not to get supermot practice.
Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's. That's a big goal.
Speaker A: How do you do? When did y' all start doing it?
Speaker C: A few years ago.
Speaker A: Have you seen. Is there some demonstrable outcomes that have said, yeah, this has really helped us big time.
Speaker C: Uh, so a big part of the EOS model is the, are the level 10 meetings. And so you have these meetings weekly with your. With like I have one with my Social Security team, my department, uh, every other week. And then we have one with the, the law firm leadership group, all the attorneys and leadership staff at, at the law firm weekly. Like I had one today. And so there's this very strict, um, organization for the meeting, um, this, this flow of the meeting. And uh, that I would say that it. The biggest change that we felt is just the objectiveness where everything is reported, everything's there. So the progress that you're making or not making, like if you get a rock, you have your quarterly rock. Each level 10, you have to report on your progress. So you have to rate it 20% done, 30% done. I hit this milestone, so I'm at 50 hit this milestone. So I'm at 75 now. And so there's transparency and there's objectiveness to it because you have to explain yourself if you haven't done what you're supposed to do or you get to pat yourself on the back. If you finished yours and you're only a few weeks into the quarter, well, then great.
Speaker B: What type of case management system are you using?
Speaker C: For the case management system, we use Litify through Salesforce.
Speaker B: Okay. And then I assume you can. You're taking that to. And then getting some custom stuff done to fit the data that you need to run the OS system.
Speaker C: It's very customizable.
Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Who's.
Speaker C: Who's in.
Speaker A: What do you call the person that's in charge of like, keeping. Inputting the data to measure?
Speaker C: Implementer.
Speaker A: Oh, that person's in charge of that?
Speaker C: Yeah. So you send your information to her, but she, she runs the level 10 meet. Like, the implementer runs the level 10 meeting, and so they walk everyone through. So to start the meeting, uh, we, we have to rate ourselves personally and professionally and share a, uh, our biggest win for the last week or whatever. So you say, oh, yeah, I settled a big case, blah, blah, blah. Uh, uh, I'm a nine professionally. I'm a nine personally.
Speaker A: Um, do people have to, like, if things are going bad at home, do they have to say, like, I'm a 4 because my kids having problems or whatever?
Speaker C: So I. Technically you're supposed to. I tell my team if you don't want to share something personal, I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable. Like, oh, yeah, I found out my wife was cheating on me with my best friend. I'm a one today. Like, don't. You can just say you're a two. And I'd prefer not to say why. And that's perfectly fine unless you had
Speaker A: a crappy, like, performance week and you need like an out. Like, oh, yeah, make. Make something up.
Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, you gotta do that.
Speaker A: Um, so those are 10. Those are. What do you call them? Level 10.
Speaker C: Yeah, level 10 meetings. Because you're, you're hopefully getting everyone. Because at the end of. That's how you start the meeting. At the end of the meeting, you rate the meeting like you rate how you feel the meeting went. And then you have to justify why. So, like. And so the goal is to have everybody rate the meeting at 10. Like, oh, uh, yeah, that was a 10. Very productive. We got through everything. We got out early and we had good food.
Speaker A: You have, um, the Clients. Do you have clients give you reviews, um, as well?
Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: Internal. Just internal stuff. Just like a hotel or a restaurant or whatever.
Speaker C: Yeah. Like on our Google page.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Um, what are just for your firm, what are some of the metrics you're looking at? Like cases closed or um, new. New. New clients or what are some of your um, data points you're inputting?
Speaker C: Yeah, I mean all that we're looking at, um, like we rate our intake team by if they meet their goals on bringing in new cases. We rate our other teams by like time on desk. Like, hey, why is this case sitting around for years? Like why is it.
Speaker A: And.
Speaker C: And if there's a reason, there's a reason. You know, sometimes things go for a long time, but it's just so you're not. No one falls through the cracks and you're not like, oh, we had this case for five years and it's still at the application level. That's not cool. Like, what happened in y'.
Speaker B: All. Slightly off topic. Going back to it a little bit. In Yalls world, what like constitutes like a big case?
Speaker C: That's a great question. Yeah. So most of the Social Security and veterans cases are not going to be big cases.
Speaker B: So under 50 grand, something like that?
Speaker C: Oh yeah, yeah. Because the Social Security cases are fee capped at 9,200
Speaker B: on a contingency.
Speaker C: Yeah. So uh, it's the lesser of 25% of the back pay. Capped at 9200.
Speaker B: Wow. You guys need to get some better lobbyists. True.
Speaker A: Telling me, but I would think just the nature of just y' all are touching and talking to so many people that's going to generate some other cases that y' all can either handle or joint venture with other firms. Is that fair?
Speaker C: So we do this presentation sometimes at uh, ah, different uh, trial lawyer groups and stuff like that. And it's. It's corny. We call it Mike the Mechanic, but we got Mike the Mechanic, works at United as a mechanic, but he was a veteran, served in Gulf war or whatever. So he's uh, eligible for VA benefits. He's eligible for SSD benefits. There's paying his FICA taxes and he works through United and he gets a disability, uh, insurance policy through them. So that's what we call a triple threat client. We could represent him on all three of those claims at the same time.
Speaker B: Gotcha.
Speaker C: So.
Speaker A: And then if his wife gets in a car wreck, maybe she'll call you and you do that too. That's.
Speaker B: Yeah. I saw on your website you do Handle some personal injury?
Speaker C: Yeah, I've worked on a few, but that's not my bread and butter. I'm not as set up for that. So I would usually like, call my buddy Bill or call someone else who's, you know, doing PI and work, uh, it together with them or just purely refer it out.
Speaker B: Gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker A: Yeah, all, uh, right, let's talk about mediator. Yeah, close it out a little bit. So how many cases or what types of cases? You know, with the active practice we talked about, it's hard to mediate while you're super busy and managing a team. But what types of cases have you mediated and what are you looking to do going forward?
Speaker C: Yeah, so mediation's always been the passion of mine. From law school. Like that was the thing that I did in law school and I thought, oh, dang, this is.
Speaker B: Do you like ADR tournaments?
Speaker C: Yeah, I did.
Speaker B: Cool.
Speaker C: I did.
Speaker B: Yeah, they always had the best locations. They were, Yeah, I did the Scotland la. It was, it was always like cool spots.
Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I got the international tournament in Chicago, so not quite.
Speaker B: Uh, yeah, I was hanging my hat in Sacramento and.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: Uh, no, no. Shout Sacks. A great town.
Speaker A: Sure.
Speaker B: You know, 24. And you know, you've only been on
Speaker C: a plane twice in your life and they ended. The school pays for you to go.
Speaker B: Yeah, we had the good old days. Right. So, uh, we were, you know, asking cab drivers for their receipt books on night one, writing off all of our booze as expenses on the trip. I didn't learn this. I didn't learn. I didn't, I didn't invent the system. I was taught the system.
Speaker C: All right?
Speaker B: And I'm not going to name any names, but one of them was a previous. Was. It was a recent guest.
Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah. So you did that. So, um. But yeah, now as you've been in practice, so yeah, what are you wanting to do? What have you done?
Speaker C: Yeah, so, I mean, I, I really enjoy the mediation process. I enjoy it both as an advocate and as a mediator. So I just think it's kind of magic. I think you sit in a room, you have the most skeptical clients. You have people that are frustrated and angry and then somehow you spend a few hours in there and you come out with a deal. And maybe not everyone is high fiving and elated by what happens, but everyone walked away with something that they contributed to, they agreed to, and they, they can put that case to rest.
Speaker B: You definitely way more optimistic on explaining mediation than I am. Mine is everyone left Pissed. So it was a good deal like that. Both sides are not happy, which means we cut a good deal on it. Pete, curiosity. Uh, just because I've mediated with people, please. 1 to 10, 10 being like your favorite one being the worst. Where do I rank on that as far? Because Pete knows I get. I'm not good at mediation. I get super short views and I'm like, we're done. Absolutely not. I'm wasting my time. Peter's like, give me a second. Let me see when I'm done. He has to like, talk me down off the ledge.
Speaker A: No, I think you're at the high end because we have a relationship so we can talk openly with each other.
Speaker B: I need to just Bob Black that question. I bet he's like, I hate you more than life itself.
Speaker A: No, uh, that's. I mean, as you do more and you get to know other people and doing podcasts and meeting more people, you have a relationship. So you can just start to be real honest, both defense and plaintiff. So, yeah, I mean, since we can be, ah, straight with. And you trust me and I trust you, then, uh. And it just makes it so much easier to, as a mediator, when you have a level of trust with, get
Speaker B: some negative feedback on you. Pete, recently.
Speaker A: Really?
Speaker B: Yeah. Everybody's pissed you got too popular and you're too hard to get into. Oh, okay, wait, he's got. With the wait list.
Speaker A: Yeah, well, I, Yeah, I just, I do three a day. I mean, I, I have three slots a day because.
Speaker B: Was it nine? 1 and 4?
Speaker A: 39, 31, 34, 30. Uh, but I've done Saturdays. I've even done the Sunday, so I'll do them anytime. I. I love, like you, Anthony. I didn't, I didn't have this, like, long term goal to do it. I just, it happened. I had a epiphany when I was 50 and kids all went to school and I was like, oh, let's see how this goes. I want to do something different, but I love it, so I will do it anywhere. I don't really take much fate. Went to Fort Lauderdale to see my son who started with the Dolphins. Just mediated the whole time, so I enjoy it.
Speaker C: Your son plays for the Dolphins?
Speaker B: He just got drafted.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: That's incredible. Congratulations.
Speaker A: Yeah, thanks.
Speaker B: You would know because he was an all American at, uh, the University of Texas.
Speaker C: Oh, that tough.
Speaker A: Yeah, but we just. I just did it. So. Yeah, it's a great. It's a very rewarding, um, practice. So do you mediate, Uh, I mean, do they do they have mediation in the disability.
Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So we do. Like, that's kind of, kind, um, of how I broke into it is doing. You do disability, uh, like, like ERISA disability cases, the long term disability case I was talking about earlier. Those can go to mediation. I love getting those to mediation. Because my clients, especially these days with AI, you just. I'll tell them like, you've got at best a hundred thousand dollar case.
Speaker B: Or if Chad GPT says you're wrong.
Speaker C: I had a client, I got them well over almost double what a court could award them. And I'm not. This is not me patting myself on the back, but this was a very favorable situation I got my client into on this particular case. I was very pleased with myself. I thought I'd done great on this case. The client himself, very pleased with the case. Very easygoing guy, the whole negotiation, the whole time. And this is not a mediation. This is just informal negotiations between counsel. Um, and he told me, you know, take it. And I said, okay, send me an email back. And the email back that I get is from his wife, who had apparently gone on chat GPT. How could you have instructed my, my husband to take this? This case is worth at least $900,000. And here's why. And sends me a very, very. A summary. Clearly, like all the hyphens.
Speaker B: Yeah. And like at the bottom, it's like this is the argument that you should make it like, it's like giving you little notes on.
Speaker C: I mean, and you just sell her,
Speaker A: then turn it down. Don't do it.
Speaker C: Well, no, because we had already settled. Yeah, like we had already settled in principle. He'd already told me to. I just asked them to send me an email as well. And this guy had been so easygoing. And that's, that's a lesson to young lawyers is until you get it in writing, do not confirm a settlement agreement.
Speaker A: But, uh, that is a very good.
Speaker B: Is it good for all lawyers?
Speaker C: Yeah, because that one I jumped the gun on and I still managed to get them back. Like, I had a very long phone conference with him and his wife walked them through the. And I was like, the demand didn't even go out for 900,000. You authorized the demand for, what was it, 250? That was a pipe dream or whatever. I sent it out at like. You authorized that? We talked about that for an hour before I sent that one out. Where did the 900 come from?
Speaker A: Yeah, you.
Speaker B: I'm, um. You probably communicated that better than me because whenever that happens to me, like, especially when remediation and I have like a pocket of numbers, and then we start negotiating. And then I'm like, hey, this is kind of where I see the pocket being. And they're like, well, you know, as long as I can get blank in my pocket, which is. They took it. They start playing with numbers in that. I'm like, why don't we stop there? Like 200, 000. Like, let's make it 20 million. Why? If we're gonna add zeros, let's really do it.
Speaker A: Come on.
Speaker C: You want a yacht, right?
Speaker B: I was like, if we're pulling things out of the air, I was like, more you get, More I get. I'm like, what do I know? And then. But I don't do it in a nice way. And then they're like, you're right. Sorry about that. I'm like, well, I'm just saying, like, let's, you know, let's.
Speaker C: It's effective. It's effective, man. Like, yeah, you're getting them to. To see the reason you're trying to put out there.
Speaker B: Yeah. Hey, we're not just pulling our numbers out of the air. And if we are, go bigger than that. Like, stop using the numbers you're hearing right now.
Speaker A: Yeah. Well, good. So. But there'll be formal. I mean, obviously, if it's in federal court.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Most federal judges will have the magistrate mediate cases. If it's the Article 3 judge has it or if it's the magistrate. A lot of times they'll just say, hey, guess what? I'm your mediator too. Because the federal court operates that way. Uh, are there formal mediations, though? With mediators, private mediators?
Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A: It's Social Security. Have, like a mediation.
Speaker B: Peter Slick. It just found a new program.
Speaker A: I don't know if I want to
Speaker C: do that, but I don't know. You could do erisa, but Social Security. No, there's no, there's nothing to mediate, frankly. It's just the ALJ decides are you disabled or not? And there's.
Speaker A: There's. See, federal judges, you know, are so good. Or any bench trial judge who knows what they're doing will bring manica. Uh, you know, can I. Here's where I'm thinking maybe y' all should go talk. Yeah. So I have to make a decision. Well, they don't do the Social Security. Judges don't. Don't do that.
Speaker C: Well, and I should say. I should have said this way earlier in the podcast. The Social Security cases are non adversarial, so it's just administrative.
Speaker A: Just.
Speaker B: I'll just tell that to the government.
Speaker C: I know.
Speaker A: Well.
Speaker C: And the judge will act like. Some judges will act like the guy's best friend. Some will act like the money is coming out of their own pocket.
Speaker B: That's weird.
Speaker C: Yeah, it's. It's. It's all over the place and. But it's non adversarial, so there's nothing to mediate. It's just. You present your claim to the court, the court determines whether or not you're disabled. That's it. And lumber stamp denials.
Speaker B: We got to pay for the C. Rand thing somehow.
Speaker C: And it's funny is I. I've objected to judges before. Uh, I've. Because I'm just trying to preserve it on appeal. For appeal. But a judge will be. You know, some of these judges will just get so squirrely and they'll just start asking my client about what kind of car they drive or just random crap just to berate them about, oh, you're not poor enough to need this, I guess is where they're going. I don't know.
Speaker A: Or.
Speaker C: But I'll object to the question or objection, you know, asked and answered or whatever. And then of course the judge is not going to explain my objection to them, but whatever. Just a tactic to break it up.
Speaker A: It's an interesting practice.
Speaker C: It is.
Speaker A: Um, okay, well, I think we've been
Speaker B: going sober almost a buck ten.
Speaker A: Oh, we're over. Okay. Well.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Josh.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: 108. Okay. Well, good. Well, this was. Like I said, the, the long. The short answer to the long story is if you have Social Security disability, life insurance issue. What. What are the other ones?
Speaker B: Virginia Veterans.
Speaker A: Um, any kind of benefit. Disability. Ish. Benefit.
Speaker B: Go to denials.com.
Speaker A: yeah.
Speaker B: Agnes.
Speaker A: Is that it?
Speaker B: Yeah, I think so.
Speaker A: Really?
Speaker B: Disabilitydenials.com.
Speaker A: the Whitehead firm and Anthony, they know it better than anyone. No offense against any other people that are doing it, but that's just kind of the general knowledge. So find you guys. Thanks for talking us through this. Um, I do think it's the way so many people actually touch the legal system. Uh, and there's going to be more as our population ages. So, um, for lawyers out there, just obviously call these guys if you have that come up.
Speaker C: Yeah. Please call me directly. I'd really appreciate that because I don't want Mark getting credit for.
Speaker B: Yeah, Mark, it's. Keep my hands out of that pie.
Speaker C: That's right, Mark. You watch out.
Speaker A: Yeah. Well, good. Well, thanks for joining us. Yeah, um, it was very helpful. And like, I said we try to cover practice areas, particularly that Bill and I have no idea. Well, we know enough to be just slightly dangerous, but know enough to go call to say call Anthony.
Speaker B: I know enough to know who to call to send.
Speaker C: I appreciate you guys. Thanks for having me.
Speaker B: Absolutely.
Speaker A: Yeah. And so, yeah, so, like, follow us, subscribe, LinkedIn, Spotify, TikTok, uh, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Apple. Spot. Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, Facebook.
Speaker B: I think you got them all.
Speaker A: You got it all.
Speaker B: Yeah, you got them all.
Speaker A: Uh, yeah, audible, uh, audible, Josh. Yeah, wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we'll see you next week.
Other episodes covering the same guests and topics, from across The B2B Podcast Index.
How ESOPs Help Family Business Owners Exit Without Losing Their Legacy | The Family Biz Show Ep. 40The Family Biz Show · on ERISA (Employee Retirement Income Security Act)84 / 100
83. “I Don’t Know” Won’t Cut It in a Department of Labor Audit w/ Patrick WilliamsThe Business of Benefits Podcast · on ERISA (Employee Retirement Income Security Act)81 / 100