How to Conduct Effective Churn Retrospectives

Speaker A: The customer that churned on you last quarter is going to churn on you again. No, not the same customer, but the same situation. The same warning signs. The same exec who went in dark in month four. The same renewal call where you could feel it slipping away and you told yourself it would be fine. The same quiet spreadsheet entry that just said reason for Churn is budget. And it is going to happen again and again and again. And do you know why? Because no one is actually looking at why it happened the first time. Welcome back to the Customer Success Pro podcast. I'm Anika Zubair, and this is a show for customer success professionals who are done being the friendly face that gets thrown under the bus when they miss their numbers and are ready to actually become revenue experts and experts that businesses just cannot afford to to lose. And today, we are talking about Churn, but not in the way that you think. We're not going to sit here and feel sad about Churn, and we're not going to sit here and talk about how to reduce churn with 10 generic tips that you've heard hundreds of times before. We are going to talk about a Churn retro or the retrospective, the autopsy, the most thing that most people in CS actually either skip or they're just bad at it, or they really don't make the time for it, and. And they do it so badly that it actually changes absolutely nothing. And I want to make a promise right here at the top of this episode. By the time you're done, you are going to know how to take a lost customer and turn it into a permanent upgrade to the way that your entire team actually works. Not a sad story, not a lesson you forget by Friday, a repeatable improvement to your playbook. That means that you're never actually going to lose that same dollar the same way twice. And here is what I'm going to say to everyone in a little bit of harsh reality check in here is that nobody says any of this out loud, but I want to say it out loud and I want to be direct with you, because that is exactly what I do on this podcast. And I'm going to be saying this out loud to be kind of like you're tough love. Okay? So here's the thing. Churn is not your problem. But Churn, that teaches you absolutely nothing. That is your problem. And losing a customer is super painful. But losing a customer and learning absolutely zero from it, that is an active choice that you are making. So if you have ever finished a quarter or looked at a retention number or felt that pit in your stomach and then just carried on doing the same thing. This episode is for you and grab a notebook and let's get into it because I promise it's going to get juicy and I'm going to be sharing tactical and practical tips as I always do. Hello everyone, I'm um, your host, Anika Zubair and welcome to the Customer Success Pro Podcast. Your go to space for real talk, expert advice and actionable insights in the world of customer success. I'm a CS executive leader, award winning strategist, CS coach and customer success fanatic. I help CSMs, UM and CS leaders build the skills and the confidence to become revenue driving pros and scale world class CS teams. So whether you're brand new to CS or a seasoned leader, this podcast is here to support your growth. Because customer success isn't a destination, it's a journey. And I'm here to be your guide and navigate every step of your journey. So join me every Wednesday where you'll get fresh CS tips, tricks and strategies you can actually use. Some weeks I'll share my own insights and best practices from working in CS over the last 13 years. And once a month I'll bring on expert guests to dive into the most relevant and pressing topics in customer success today. So if you're ready to level up, hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you tune in and let's make your CS journey a little bit easier together. All right, let me connect all of this back into what is actually happening right now outside in our world because the timing of this conversation matters more than it ever has in probably a few years. Okay? And as you would have probably have listened in my previous episodes, if you have been around on this podcast, I have said this multiple times before, but we are living through the era where retention is the growth strategy within SaaS organizations. For years, by the way, SaaS ran on one motion, okay? Spend more money, especially spend more money on marketing and sales to then acquire new logos, net new logos and grow at all costs. Okay, that era is over. It's been over, honestly, probably for the last, I want to say at least three years, maybe even four years now. But the thing is, new sales have slowed down across the board and boards and investors have all turned to looking at the same metric. And that same metric that they're all looking at is net revenue retention. And here's the data. The median annual logo churn rate for B2B SaaS sits somewhere around 3 and a half percent according to the most recent recurley benchmark reports that I was reading. And that sounds small until you do the math on that and the math on your own book. And here's the number that should really get your attention. By the way. A SaaS company with under 3% annual churn and net revenue retention above 110% can command a valuation of up to 8 or 12 times its annual recurring revenue. A company with 8% or more annual churn trades at 3 to 5 times or worse. Isn't that, uh, crazy? Like, what the heck? Like go back and listen to that again. The exact same revenue, the exact same, same product, the difference between a healthy book and a leaky one can actually triple or quadruple what the entire company is worth. If you've never thought of customer success as a revenue driver or actually the whole revenue engine that holds SaaS companies together, feel free to rewind this podcast and listen to those stats that I just read out loud. Like that's crazy that just a few percent again, sounds like a little, but makes an entire difference of how you're evaluated A.S. an entire S.A.A.S organization. Okay? Retention is not a support metric at all. It is a valuation metric and you, the csm, the CS leader, you are sitting directly on that number. Now here's the whole tie in and why it might really actually sit with you. Now here's how this all ties in and I want it to really sit with you. Okay? Think about how the world has become completely obsessed with the review, the year in Review the Recap Reviews Spotify Wraps every December. Your music app shows you your top songs. Every sport you watch. The athletes are in a room the next morning watching the tape of the game that they just played. Okay? Frame by frame, even when they won. Every great team treats that review period of what just happened as the most valuable hour of the week. And then there's customer success, okay, where we lose a six figure account and we write one word in a dropdown field in our CRM or in our spreadsheet and then we move on. We will watch a 45 minute breakdown of, uh, why your favorite team actually lost a match. But we're not going to spend 45 minutes understanding why we lost a customer who was paying us real money every single month. And that is the gap between how to, how serious the rest of the world takes retros and how casually we in customer success take it too. And that is the entire opportunity of this episode. So I really just want to call it out and I really want to make sure that you understand the problem clearly here because I think a lot of you are feeling it and have not put it into words just yet. And the problem really is this, that most customer success teams log churn and almost no CS teams actually learn from it. Or logging is easy. By the way. Logging is just administration. And these days with AI, it probably happens even faster than what we've ever done before. But when the customer cancels, you update a system, you mark the account as loss, and then you pick a reason, like I said from a dropdown field and then a machine or a CRM records it done dusted the data exists somewhere and there is a rapport. And maybe your leader can, uh, pull a pile like a little chart together or a pie chart that says, okay, 45% is lost due to budget and 30% was lost to a competitor and 30% other or unknown. But ask yourself honestly, what changed because of that pie chart that your leader brought or your leader created? What play got rewritten? What question got added to your qbr? What signal got added to your health score? What did anyone on your team actually start doing differently on Monday morning once you log that churn? For most teams, the answer is seriously nothing. And churn gets recorded. And then it just gets buried in your CRM and everyone forgets about it. And because it gets buried instead of studied, the same patterns end up repeating the same type of customer churns the same way next quarter or next year. And then the book keeps leaking from the same hole and everyone keeps bailing water with these new logos. They're like, okay, let's add more customers into the bucket instead of fixing the hole in the bucket. And here's why this is just so urgent right now. In the land of expand world, where your customers are your growth engine, when business slows down, the only way to grow is to keep more of what you already have and expand expand the rest. And that means every churned account is not just the loss of revenue, it's a loss of all. The expansion that you would have grown on top of that over the years. And you didn't just lose a customer, but you lost compounding interest and a compounding asset. And the one thing that makes this trigger even stronger or sharper is a big chunk of what we call churn is not even a customer success. Failure up to 40% of churn in many SaaS businesses is involuntary. Okay, a credit card expires, a payment fails, a customer drifts away without ever deciding to leave. If you are lumping that in with the customer who actively chooses to walk away because they did not see value. Your retro is built on garbage data. You cannot fix a problem where you've not separated all of that out and really understood it. So if you are not running a real Churn Retro, you are flying a plane with no flight recorder. And every crash that ends up happening in that airplane is a total mystery. Okay? Every crash is a tragedy. And every crash is going to happen again and again because nobody actually ever found out what was going wrong. And I want to get really specific about why this actually happens, because I do not believe CS people are lazy. I think customer success people are the hardest working people in SaaS. As, uh, someone who's done it for over a decade, but also as someone who coaches teams around the world, I know how hard working customer success professionals are. But what I don't think we're doing right or what I see happening most often is instead of being what people think, oh, we're not lazy. I know we're not lazy, but I think what we are is probably busy. And I think nobody ever taught us how to do this properly. So let's talk about certain mistakes that turn a Churn Retro into a total waste of time. Okay, quick pause from the podcast. Let me just pause here for a moment because there is a pattern I see in almost every Churn Retro I have ever run, and I want to talk to you about it directly. Okay? You reconstruct a timeline, you do the five whys. And so so often you arrive at the same root cause. It comes down to a conversation, a renewal call where the customer pushed back and then the CSM froze when they said it's too expensive. Or we did not see the roi. Or maybe the customer said, new leadership is reevaluating all of our tools. And in that moment, the CSM went off all quiet, got super defensive, or did the worst thing of all, immediately offered a discount on renewal. The account did not churn because the product failed. It ended up churning because nobody in the room know how to actually handle an objection when it landed, and that is the pain. And you can build all the early warning triggers in the world and do all the wonderful Churn Retros. But if your team cannot hold their ground in a conversation that actually decides the renewal, you will keep losing those renewal deals. Now imagine the opposite. Imagine a team that hears it's too expensive and gets really curious instead of scared. And a team that knows how to reframe the conversation back to value, hold price with confidence. Multi thread to a new decision maker all before the renewal is even on the table. And then they turn a defensible renewal into an expansion conversation. Imagine your retro stop surfacing the same conversation failures quarter after quarter after quarter because your people, your team, finally know what to say when it counts. And that is exactly why I built the workshop that I run with teams around the globe. And that is objection handling. During renewals workshop, we take real objections. Your CSMs are here right now, whether it's pricing, pushback, ROI, doubt, or the new exec wants cuts. And we drill the language, we drill the reframes, and we drill the confidence until handling them is muscle memory. And it's not panic mode. It's a practical and tactical workshop that your team will walk out of, uh, ready to use on their very next call. So if your retros keep pointing at the same gap that it's the conversation, let us close that conversation gap. Bring me in for a workshop with your team and you can find everything that you need to know about our objection handling workshop@, uh, thecustomersuccesspro.com teamevent. That's the customersuccesspro.com team event. And while you're there, go ahead and grab the objection handling guidebook so your team has the reframes in their back pocket before I even arrive. All right, I want you to stop losing those winnable renewal objections. And I want to make sure your team is really, truly trained to handle those objections the next time they come up. Okay, we can fix this conversation, so go ahead and head over and book your workshop now. All right, let's get back into the episode. All right, One of the things that I keep seeing happen in the market, and I've done this before, is I end up treating Churn as an event instead of a signal. And we end up obsessing over the moment of cancellation, the renewal call that went badly, the email that said we're not getting the renewal. But cancellation is the last frame in a very, very long movie. The real story happened months earlier and it might have been the exec who stopped showing up or the usage that flattened about three months into using your product. Or the champion who got promoted and nobody backfilled the relationship or multi threaded the relationship past that one champion. And if your retro only looks at the ending, you are studying the funeral instead of studying the illness. All right, another mistake. And again, these come from personal experience. Is the single dropdown reason, or what I like to say, the reason for Churn, uh, field or bucket? Right. And if you hear this, I'm pretty sure all of us have heard it. But we have marked a customer for a reason for Churn as Budget. And that is not a reason, by the way. That is a symptom. Okay? When a customer says it's too expensive, what they are almost always saying is that the value was not obvious enough for me to justify the price. And Budget is what people say when they did not feel the roi. So if you write down budget and stop there, you have, uh, learned absolutely nothing because you have recorded the excuse that a customer gave you instead of the root cause underneath it. Okay? The third mistake is doing the retro alone inside of your CS team bubble. Now, Churn is not a CS problem. And I will say this fully, loudly and proudly. Churn is a company wide problem. And it seeds the seeds of Churn that might have been planted by sales reps who oversold or a bad fit account or a product gap that engineering knew about a year ago but didn't change or build anything around it. Or maybe an adoption that took four months when it should have taken four weeks. If the only people in the Churn retro are, let's say, customer success managers or the CS team, you will keep concluding that Churn is a CS failure. And I have done that many times. I've gotten my whole team together at the end of a year, and we did a Churn retro. And it made me realize that we were living in our customer success bubble. And we then felt really guilty that we didn't do enough and that we didn't actually achieve our goals as Churn mitigators. But again, when half the time the root cause sits in another department entirely, how and why are we blaming ourselves? All right, let's talk about mistake number four, which is turning a Retro into a blame game, which is kind of the opposite of what I just said. Um, instead of living in your customer success bubble, this is the one that secretly destroys everything. Okay? The moment a Churn Retro becomes about finding who to blame, everyone in the room starts protecting themselves instead of telling the honest truth. Right? The CSM will start downplaying the warning signs that they missed sales, will insist the account was perfect at handoff. Nobody is honest, so nobody actually learns. A Retro is built on that level of, like, fear. It just produces more and more friction. And, um, finally, the last mistake I want to talk about is insights with no action. Okay? This is the most common one of all. Everything where again, I got my whole team together, we sat down, and we did a retro at the end of the year and, um, the team does the retro and everyone nods and someone says, yeah, we really need to multi thread or earlier or we need to do QBRs in this way, which are all great points. And everyone starts agreeing while we're in the room. And then the meeting ends and not one single thing changes. No one, no one playbook gets updated, no owner gets assigned to any of the tasks, no triggers get built. The insights just kind of float off into oblivion and the exact same churn happens again next quarter. And insight without a, uh, change to your system. It's just performative, by the way. It's like a theater shore. It feels productive and it feels like it accomplished, um, something like you've performed, but it actually does nothing right. I have listed out tons of churn mistakes when it comes to doing a Churn retro, and every single one of those, by the way, it is fixable. And I just want to be honest though, that a lot of us live in this reactive world. And for those of us who are pretending that we're doing proactive customer success, reality check, we're probably even doing a reactive customer retro. And being truly proactive means actually actioning things out of our retro. So let me show you how to actually fix this. So, as always on these solo episodes, I love to break things down in a way of frameworks or playbooks. And the reason is, is because that's just the way my brain works. And I really hope that if you are enjoying my frameworks and playbooks, if you can just take a second to actually like or subscribe this podcast, I would absolutely be so, so, so over the moon happy about that. Because here is what I've noticed, by the way, because I've dug into the data of this podcast and I have found that only 32% of our 3,000 listeners every month are, uh, actually subscribed to this podcast. So if you haven't actually subscribed, this is your second to subscribe. Because I know if I'm talking about a framework, and you've heard me talk about frameworks before, you have been back time and time again. So please take a moment to hit that subscribe Button on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. So let's jump in. The framework I want to give you today is called the Churn Retro Loop, okay? And it has five stages, and they all start with R on purpose, so you can remember them when you're tired and busy and just tempted to write budget in the dropdown menu of your CRM and move on. All right, the five Rs are reconstruct, root, recognize, rewrite, recur. Okay, Those are the five Rs. Let's walk through each one of those Rs. Okay, so the first step is the reconstruct, okay? And this is reconstruct the timeline. Okay? Not the renewal call, the whole journey. Okay? Open up the account and rebuild what actually happens month by month, from day by day, from when they signed to when they did the kickoff call to the day that they left. Okay? What? When did the onboarding finish? When did they hit their first value milestone? And how long did that take, by the way? When did the usage peak? And then when did it start to drop? When did your champion last reply to you? When did a new decision maker enter the picture? When did you do QBRs? And when you did QBRs, did they get rescheduled three times and then canceled? You are building almost like a flight recorder. Okay? And that's my analogy for this. This whole part of the podcast is I want you to start tracking your flight, and the flight is the customer journey, okay? You are laying out the events on a line so that you can see the moment that things actually start going wrong, which almost never is the moment that they told you where they were leaving. Nine times out of 10, you reconstruct a timeline and you find warning signs that were screaming at you. Four, five, six, maybe even seven months before renewal. You were just not looking for them because you were in autopilot, just flying the plane. But I need you to go look back at your flight recorder and really decide. When did this all go wrong? So, first step, reconstruct the timeline of events. All right? Stage two is root, and that's basically root cause. And I'm going to give you the simplest, most powerful tool to do this, okay? And the five whys, you're going to start with the surface reason and ask yourself why five times until you hit something real. Okay? Watch this. The customer churned. Why? Because they said it was too expensive. Why was it too expensive? Because they didn't feel like they were getting enough value. Okay, why did they not feel the value? Because they were only using two of the seven features they bought. Okay, why were they only using two features? Because onboarding never got them past the basic setup. Why did onboarding stop there? Because one person who was trained, he actually left the company in month two, and nobody actually re onboarded the new champion. Look what just happened there. We started at budget, and then we ended up with, we have no process for re onboarding. When a champion leaves, one of those is an excuse, the other is a problem that you can actually solve. And the five whys is how you get from one to the other. All right, let's move on to the third R which is recognize. So now it's time to recognize the pattern. And, and this is the stage that separates a one off lesson from a system that compounds. Okay, you are going to tag every churn with a type. Okay? And not a vague reason, a category that lets you see a pattern across many, many accounts. And there's a, uh, different ways that you could actually start to do this. But maybe it's like onboarding failure. They never reach value in the first 90 days. Or maybe it's something like value gap. They used the product but they never connected it to a business outcome they cared about. Or maybe relationship failure, you were single threaded and your champion left and you had no other relationships to fall back on. Or maybe there was a product gap and there was real capability that they needed that you genuinely do not have and bad fit at the sale. They were never actually the right customer and this was baked in before CS even touched the account. Okay. Or maybe it was like sponsor or budget change, a new reorg, an exec, an acquisition, a real external event that you could not actually control. Or maybe involuntary like a payment failed and it was never, um, reevaluated or a value decision ever mattered at that moment when you actually tag consistently, what ends up happening is magic. Truly magic happens at the portfolio level. And after one quarter when you look up and you see that 60% of churn is tagged as relationship failure, suddenly this is not a sad story about one account. This is a flashing red sign that says your entire team has a multi threading problem and now you know exactly what to fix. All right, Fourth R is rewrite. Now this is a stage everyone skips and is the only one that actually changes the way you work. You can actually now rewrite the playbook. Okay? Every churn retro has to end with at least one concrete change to how your team operates as a whole. Okay, Again, not a feeling, not we should not something along those lines. I want you to have a specific owned, dated change. Like let me give you a few examples of what real rewrite looks like. Because once I've done retros before, we always have action out of a retro. Because why would you spend an entire afternoon or an entire day doing a retro if you don't have action out of it? Okay, some of them, some examples I can give you is if the root cause was a champion who left and nobody noticed the then the rewrite. To that is we add a new early warning trigger that anytime our main contact has not engaged in like 30 days or something, a task fires automatically in our CRM system owned by the CSM due within 48 hours of basically doing a multi threading. That's an action. Okay? If the root cause was a value gap, the rewrite is. We add a mandatory question to every QBR on what business outcomes are we moving forward for you this quarter and we do not close the QBR until that is answered. Or uh, maybe if the root cause was single threading, the rewrite would be no account over a certain value is allowed to have fewer than three active relationships and that becomes a health score input that we actually track in our customer success tool. Do you see the difference? Each one is a change to the system. A trigger, a question, a rule, a metric, a something that means that the next CSM facing the same situation, they get caught by the net you just built instead of just falling through the same hole that you fell through in your leaky bucket. Every rewrite gets an owner and a date. And insight without an owner, by the way, it's just a wish, okay? You need to have an owner and a date. Otherwise you're just dreaming big. And you got great dreams and you got great wishes and hopes for your turn Retro. But you've got to solidify it, all right? The final R is recur. Okay? This whole churn retro loop only works if it actually loops. So you make it like a cadence, okay? Not a one off. You run a churn retro every single month. Put it on the calendar like payroll, okay? Or put it on the calendar like your QBRs. Whatever it is, bring the right people into the room. Cs, sales, product onboarding, whoever touched the customer journey. And here's the part that closes the loop and makes this whole thing real. At the start of each month's retro, before you look at the new losses, you review the rewrites from last month and you actually say hey, did we actually build that trigger or did the new QBR get question get changed? And are we seeing fewer relationship failure tags than we were 90 days ago? This is how a retro stops being like a show that we just watch and becomes that revenue generating engine and really prevents churn from happening again. And you are not just here to collect lessons, you are checking whether your lessons are actually working and adjusting again if they are or aren't working. So those five Rs were reconstruct, root recognize, rewrite, and recur. The loop ends up turning every loss into fuel for your future and for your customer success. Now, I want to tell you a story because I made every single one of these mistakes before I, uh, ever learned how to do a, uh, churn retro properly. So all the mistakes I was talking about earlier know that I too have faced them earlier on in my career. And earlier in my career as a CSM and as a team lead, I ended up losing an account that I genuinely did not see coming. Or at least that's what I told myself. Okay, it was a healthy logo, good usage, lovely main champion contact who always took my calls. I really liked her. And we got, we got on. And when that renewal came up, she told me very kindly that they had decided to go in a different direction. Okay, they had budget pressures, new priorities, the usual. They were basically lying to my face. But at the time, I was so hurt. And do you know what I wrote in our system in my CRM at the time? I wrote reason for churn budget. And I closed the account and I told my manager it was out of my hands and I moved on. I treated it like bad weather, really, something that happened to me. And instead of really looking at it and then months later, almost by accident, I kind of went back and actually reconstructed what had happened. And the story I found was nothing like the story I had told myself. The real story was this. My lovely main contact, the one who would always take my calls, had been moved into a, uh, new role four months before renewal. Okay? And a new person took over the relationship. Someone I'd never met, never built trust with, never shown a single piece of value to. I was single threaded to a champion who had already left the building. And I never noticed because the usage all looked fine and the calls were friendly enough. But it was never a budget problem. It was a relationship problem that could have been caught months earlier if I had been watching the right signals. And that's the worst part. I had done the exact same things on two other accounts that year. Same pattern, same same blind spot, same one word excuse in my CRM, saying I was repeating a mistake I had never even bothered to learn from. And that is the day I started to start running real retros. And it really changed my career because I went from being a CSM that things happen to into a CSM who saw things coming and, and the metaphor I kind of want to leave you with today, and it is one that I keep coming back to in My brain, and hopefully it helps you understand all of this, too, is think about why flying is so astonishingly safe. Like, in this day and age, it's more likely that you're going to get in a car accident than in a plane crash. Okay? And it's not because pilots never make mistakes. They're humans. They make mistakes. It's because of that little black box inside of an airplane. Okay? Every time something goes wrong on an aircraft, there is a recorder that captures exactly what happened. And then a team runs a blameless investigation. They're not trying to punish a pilot or fire anyone. They are trying to understand the failure so deeply that they can change the checklist for every pilot in the world. One crash studied properly makes the entire system safer for everyone who flies after it. And that is what a Churn Retro is. The black box is your timeline. The blameless investigation is your five whys, and the updated checklist for every pilot in the world. That is your rewritten playbook. You are not doing this to feel bad about a lost like or a lost account. You are doing this so that one loss makes your whole team better at flying and better pilots. All right, let's come to my favorite part of solo podcast episodes. And if you've been around here for a while, you know I love to challenge you. And why do I love challenging you? Because I am here to make you a better customer, success, professional, and hopefully so that you can learn from my mistakes so you don't make them. All right, here is your weekly challenge. I want you to actually do this because it is the difference between an episode you had enjoyed and an episode that actually changes how you work. All right? This week, you are going to run one Churn Retro. Just one. Again, I like to make these weekly challenges easy so you're not overwhelmed. But I want you to run one Retro and you do not need permission. Okay? You do not need a meeting. You do not need anyone else. Just pick one account from the last, let's say 90 days of churn and run it through the loop on yourself. Okay, so step one, go through reconstructing the timeline. Open the account, map it out month by month, find the moment it actually started going wrong, and then go to the root. Step two, and do the five whys out loud or on a piece of paper. Push past the dropdown reason that you hit in your CRM into something you can actually fix. And then step three, recognize it, tag it with a type onboarding, failure, value gap, relationship failure, product gap, bad fit, sponsor change, blah, blah, Blah, blah, blah. There's so many tags that you can probably have, but make sure you tag it. Step four Rewrite. Okay, write down one change. That the way you're going to either do a future call or a future renewal or the one way that your team is going to start working now. One trigger, one question, one rule. Give it an owner. Give, even if the owner is just you, by the way. And also make sure you give it a date. And that's really it. Okay? That's what I want you to do this week. One account, one real retro, one concrete change. It'll take you maybe 45 minutes, and it'll teach you more than the last five churn reports you skimmed did. And then I want you to share it. Okay, go ahead and post your biggest takeaway on LinkedIn and tag me and use the hashtag TheCustomer Success Pro and tell me which type of churn you found and the one play that you are rewriting because of it. I love reading all of the LinkedIn messages and posts and I love responding to these. Because honestly, when you start identifying the patterns that you see in Churn Retros and you all surface all of this, it could end up being a whole different way of you working. All right, so please feel free to share on LinkedIn with the community because we love learning from each other and let us learn from each other's flight recorder mistakes. All right, so that is all for this week. If this episode gave you something new to think about or challenged you when it comes to doing a Churn retro, can you do me a favor and follow the show? Or, uh, or maybe even share the show with your CS bestie so that you and your CS bestie never miss a future episode? Because we go deep on the revenue side of customer success every single week and I love having every single one of my listeners along for the ride. So please do hit that follow or subscribe button wherever you listen to this podcast. It genuinely helps so many more CS pros find the work that we are doing at the Customer Success Pro. And I'd love it if you just took two seconds. If you made it to this point of the podcast, you are truly a committed podcast listener. I would love it if you go in and drop a comment down below, either on Spotify or on YouTube and tell me the Churn type that surprised you the most when you ran your own retro. And if your retros keep pointing at the same conversation, the renewal where your team freezes on. Objection. You know where to find me. Just head over to thecustomersuccesspro.com team event and let us train your team to actually win the conversation that decides your renewal number. I hope you enjoyed this week's podcast episode. My name is Anika Zubair and this has been the Customer Success Pro Podcast. And remember, a renewal is a sale and every churn is a lesson. If you are brave enough to actually study it, I will catch you next week for our next episode. Thanks for tuning in to the Customer Success Pro Podcast. I hope you picked up something valuable to take back to your team. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to me if you took just 10 seconds to leave a review on Apple or Spotify. It helps more CS pros like yourself discover the show, and creating new episodes takes a lot of work, so leaving a nice review keeps me motivated to keep creating. And don't forget to hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcast episodes. I drop a new episode every Wednesday packed with practical tips and if you've got a topic you'd love for me to cover or want to be a guest on my show, send me a message. All the details are in the show notes. I'd love to hear from you. And hey, if this episode helped you share it with a fellow CSM or CS leader, remember, sharing is caring. Cheers to your CS journey and I'll catch you next week for our next episode Episode.