Skilled Copywriter Couldn't Make Money Until He Did THIS

Speaker A: I have a client spending 4 million a month. It's a great position because when you're thriving, you also help the people around you, like help my family. So it's really nice for it to not be benefiting just me.

Speaker B: It's awesome to see. We were literally just talking about this before, uh, we went live and yeah, you said you didn't make meaningful money for like three and a half years in the copywriting industry.

Speaker A: And I would say that the main thing, and this was definitely my mistake, is that I would always focus on trying to improve my skills, skill. And something that I learned is that there are two different skills when it comes to running your own copywriting business. You know, so you have the skill of writing copy, of course, which is what I was focusing on a lot. But there's also the skill of selling yourself and, and building a copywriting business. And my knowledge on that was pretty much non existence. You know, applications are a skill in and of themselves and I would, I, I also had to master that. You know, I had, I went for like 6:73, I think it was, without even getting a single reply.

Speaker B: What do you think that copywriters need to hear about applications that maybe has held them back in the past?

Speaker A: I think that one thing is that you cannot just lazily apply. When I apply personally, I treat it as if it was a client. It's not hard for me to take six hours in an application. If they ask me for one script, I will send them three. If they just tell me to explain a little bit in a paragraph, I'll send a loom video and a paragraph. Right. So you always want to do more. And this is something that I feel like a lot of people appreciate, especially the business owners. Right. Because they know that if you're putting that amount of strength, uh, and you know, all that energy into that test project, then they subconsciously also know that you're going to put that energy when they hire you too. I would say there's a lot of copywriting advice I out there. Great advice, not so good advice. But there's very little competent advice on selling yourself as a copywriter.

Speaker B: So what would you say to the younger version of you that was struggling for three and a half years? Why did it take you so long?

Speaker A: If we want to start as fast as possible and build a portfolio really quick and develop the skill fast, make good money, learn to close clients, at least right now at the time of recording this interview, I think that creative strategy is the way to go. I agree.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's solid advice.

Speaker A: All right.

Speaker B: Alejandro, uh, Martinez, welcome to Cape Town.

Speaker A: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. Beautiful city.

Speaker B: By the way, you've done a pretty good job this last year.

Speaker A: Yeah, I've done pretty great. It's been my best year in business ever. You know, I'm very excited.

Speaker B: I'm pretty happy for you because, uh, we were literally just talking about this before, uh, we went live, and, um, yeah, you said you didn't make much, meaning you didn't make meaningful money for, like, three and a half years in the copywriting industry. And so now that you're on the other side of that, it's awesome to see.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's awesome. It's beautiful. I am in a great position where I can also, like, help my family. So it's really nice for it to not be benefiting just me, but, you know, a bunch of people and. Yeah, that's very, like, 80% thanks to Dojo.

Speaker B: Well, thanks. That's nice to hear. What was it before? Like, what was the. What was income? Like, what was work? Like, what was the. What was the.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What was your cloud running business like?

Speaker A: Well, I would say that the main thing, and this was definitely my mistake, is that I would always focus on trying to improve my skill. Um, and something that I learned from Dojo is that there are two different skills when it comes to running your own copywriting business. You know, so you have the skill of writing copy, of course, which is what I was focusing on a lot. But there's also the skill of selling yourself and building a copywriting business. And my knowledge on that was pretty much non existence. In fact, it was funny to come into Dojo, you know, and have a lot of experience writing copy, because I've been writing for a while. I've had a, uh, couple clients in the past, but I just didn't know how to sell myself, how to talk and interviews, navigate conversations with clients, whether that's on the phone or, you know, on text message. So how was it before? Well, it was honestly a constant struggle. You know, Um, I really am passionate about my work. I love copywriting. I want to do it for a long time. And so I was always studying, like I said, with the belief that it would eventually, like, oh, my. The dream clients would find me. But I was always like, you know, when there was, like, a conversation, I would lowball myself even before the client did. Um, I would work a lot for Peanuts, basically. And it was a constant struggle to pay the rent, too, as well. And My rent isn't even that expensive. You know, I live in Central America, so it isn't even that expensive at all. And so it was just a constant struggle, you know, and it was a very difficult position because I also dropped out of college to pursue this. I don't have a career. And, you know, there was, like, a lot of backlash from my family. Um, many of them didn't approve them, except for my mom, who has been my rock and everything. You know, she's awesome. And then eventually, you know, uh, it just started clicking thanks to Dojo. And, yeah, even, you know, my relationship with my father even improved with that and everything because, you know, he's always caring that I'm doing pretty well and everything. But, yeah, I would say that that was basically my reality back then. Just studying, trying to get somewhere, thinking that eventually it would, like, bring me clients. Nice.

Speaker B: Now you're having some good months.

Speaker A: Yes, I am. I'm doing pretty good.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so, too. I think you're doing a fantastic job. Uh, what is that thing that you would say was like the light bulb moment or like the switch when you were working with me and you were in the dojo and you were talking to other copywriters that are winning or were you like, oh, like, I, uh, get it. I get what was why I was struggling besides obviously realizing that there's another aspect to this business that you have to go and get clients, you know, like. Like while you were trying to figure that out.

Speaker A: Absolutely. So, yeah, like I said, it was first of all that belief shift about, okay, I need to get better at selling myself, being confident. And I think, uh, you helped me out with that tremendously. There are also a lot of people in dojo, like, uh, Logan, the. The two Logans, actually, and Jarrah and Fotis. And I'm going to miss some people because, you know, there's a hundred of us. But it was so helpful to, you know, them seeing my copy and they're like, man, this is pretty good. You know, this is something that you can charge more money for. You know, this is really good work because I had invested all that time learning the skill. So it was just about speeding up that other skill about selling myself. And something else that I learned in dojo was applications. I think I had done maybe before dojo in my four years of career. Before then, I might have done like, three applications in total. For me, it was always, like, cold emails, uh, referrals. So it was just like, applications are a skill in and of themselves. And I Also had to master that. You know, I went for like 73, I think it was, without even getting a single reply. So then I got a test project and then I don't know how many have done at this point. Maybe almost 200 maybe, but 200 test projects? No, 200 applications, probably.

Speaker B: I was about to say, I was like, you gotta teach us how to do test projects if you've done that many.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and that's the cool thing because as you start doing more applications, then you start getting, you know, as you start applying more, you start getting more frequent test projects and you start getting better at the test projects. So at first they're like, okay, thank you. You know, and at this point I don't, I don't think that many test projects because I honestly have the confidence that I will land like a lot of them. Maybe not all of them, uh, but a lot of them. If it's like based on the strength of my test project and of the portfolio alone, then I'm pretty confident that I could be in the top contenders for the position.

Speaker B: Yeah, you just, uh, choose a position and you go for it and it's yours.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker B: What do you think that copywriters need to hear about applications that maybe has held them back in the past?

Speaker A: I think that one thing is that you cannot just lazily apply. You know, I feel like sometimes you will try to hit a KPI, like, oh, I'll do three applications a day. But maybe you also have client work, maybe you also have a full time job or you have other responsibilities to take care of and you'll be like, okay, just so I can hit this third one, I am going to, you know, apply and then just leave it. Right. When I apply personally, I treat it as if it was a client. You know, uh, it will take me about. It's not odd for me to take six hours in an application, four hours maybe, depending on how much the test project is. And I learned this from my friend Yassin, if he's watching this. But you should only apply. And I'm, um, in a very comfortable position where I can do that. But you should only apply to gigs that you are, that you would like to work with. Right. You don't apply to a gig just because you want to make some money. Obviously there are different positions. Right. I'm lucky to have my bills paid and everything. But so, yeah, when I apply, I just give it my all. I, if they ask me for one script, I will send them three. You know, I'LL try to over deliver. If they just tell me to explain a little bit in a paragraph, I'll send a loom video and a paragraph. Right. So you always want to do more. And this is something that, um, I feel like a lot of people appreciate, especially the business owners. Right. Because they know that if, if you're putting that amount of, um, strength and, and, you know, all that energy into that test project, then they subconsciously also know that you're gonna put that energy when they hire you too, which obviously you need to uphold. You need to focus on that. But, you know, I really like my position, so I just do that.

Speaker B: That's good. I think that's, uh, I think that's solid advice. I spent about a day on one of the applications that I, I made earlier in my career. Yeah. I spent a full day on probably seven, eight hours.

Speaker A: Imagine that.

Speaker B: Right. And I closed the gig because I really put the time in, you know, But I think many people don't because they're like, oh, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna close it. You know, what's the chance that I'll close it? 100 other people applied to the position. You know, let me just, uh, throw some stuff together and hopefully I make it to the next round kind of thing. And I think that's, that's the reason you're not getting the gig is because you're like.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Everybody's doing that, you know?

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: So of the 100 people, maybe there's actually 10 people that put in the effort. And of the 10 people, maybe there's only three of them that actually know how to, like, that they know the skill. Yes, Right. Because they, like, they've got training or whatever. Because a lot of the copywriters that do get clients very easily, they're, they're usually too busy. So they might not even be applying to the gigs. So, like, all the gigs that are available is usually a competition between you and, I don't know, uh, five people. And then all you have to do is have, like, a professional presentation. Good cv.

Speaker A: You helped me out with that line.

Speaker B: All the application process, know, good camera presence, you know, handle the interviews like a pro.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Um, and position's, uh, yours.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's also something that you mentioned over there. It's really interesting because, um, I also didn't know how to present myself, you know, like on my LinkedIn when they asked for a CV or a portfolio. I remember my first month in the dojo and I'm like, applying. It's like, Matthew, this is. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm not even hearing back. And they're like, show me your portfolio. And it was just something I had put together. Like in Canva. This was. You were like, I don't know how this was approved. Yeah.

Speaker B: Ah, yeah, because for some reason you were applying to stuff, and I didn't see it, and I was like, oh, yeah. I was like, bro, that doesn't. That you can apply to 100 more gigs. Like, let's not. Let's just fix this first. Because you want to give people the best first impression, you know?

Speaker A: Absolutely. And that's something that I have to thank Dojo for tremendously. You know, that's. I would say there's a lot of copywriting advice out there. Great advice, not so good advice, but there's very little competent advice on, um, selling yourself as a copyright. And this is why I'm very happy to be in Dojo, honestly, because it's the one thing that has helped me and yeah, because of that is the, you know, the. The income has been exponentially going up because of that. It's not because of my skill, because obviously my skill always gets better because of my increased income, so to speak. I now have a great mentor. You know, it's your friend, uh, Basilis, who is amazing. Amazing. And so. And so, yeah, that's just. It's a matter of balancing the two things, you know, learning to sell yourself and then just being a good copywriter, too.

Speaker B: So what would you say to, you know, the younger. The younger version of you that was struggling for three and a half years? Why did it take you so long? Why are you struggling for so long, bro?

Speaker A: Man, I mean, I'll be honest. Uh, one of the main things is that I didn't always follow the best advice for my situation. A lot of the times it wasn't on the people I followed advice on, it was on me. I always try to apply. You know, it's a. I'm a very strong action taker, I would say. I like to work a lot. I think I inherited that from my father. And, you know, there was a lot of times when I would try to, like, apply a model, and the model just didn't work right. Uh, I don't want to mention, like, specific names or anything like that, but the model just didn't work. And it's a little bit frustrating because you're working hard. I didn't have, like, too many clients at the time, so My. I remember this was, like, in early 2024, so about two years ago. And I didn't have any client. I had one client, which the total commitment was about six hours. And so I would spend the rest of my time just doing outreach. Uh, and I would spend, like, six, seven hours a day just reaching out to potential clients. And the model was a little bit flawed. You know, it didn't work for me. You know, charging. Uh, you wouldn't charge them up front. You would just get a percentage of the sales, which any sound business owner will not give you a percentage of the sales unless it's, like, on. On some condition, like winning Aspen or whatever. But that's another topic.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: And so I was just working, and I remember, like, maybe is it me? You know, um, am I just not cut out for this? And it was very scary because, like I said, I don't have, like, a degree, so I had nothing safe to fall back on, you know? And that was very scary for me. And so I guess what I would tell to that younger person is I would be very diligent and very thorough with the people that I study, and I would try to, like, see what their life is like, see what their clients are like, maybe what they say about them. You know, see their reputation in the industry. And it's a little bit difficult because there are some people out there that they'll make it. Um, but then the way that they teach it, that you won't see, like, a lot of students making it. You know what I mean? Um, so for me, that was the case, you know, just following a bunch of advice. Some of that advice didn't even apply to copywriting. It was for other business models, like software or something like that.

Speaker B: We talked about this before.

Speaker A: Yeah, actually. Yeah, great. So, yeah. And so with the dojo, um, I would just see the constant wins, the people increasing their income, and I was like, man, I have to be here. And I heard about you. You know, uh, my first mentor in copywriting, Nabil Aziz. Oh, yeah. I think you're a friend of him, and he speaks very highly of you. And, you know, I thank you guys for building, like, something together. Something like that.

Speaker B: We've got a community together.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I was like, well, if Nabil is building with Matthew, then Matthew has to be the real deal, too, because I have a lot of respect for Nabil to this day. And, yeah, I just. That's how I joined Dojo. So I. I just wish I joined Dojo, like, three years earlier. If it. If it existed I think it did

Speaker B: that, uh, 20, 21 we started.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, yeah, as soon as I met you on Facebook through. I think it was a post from Nabil, then I just, uh, I was in. You know, I wanted to go in.

Speaker B: Well, thanks for sharing that. It means a lot to hear you speak so highly of the dojo. Like, we. We put a lot of time into it, so it's nice to. Nice to get that.

Speaker A: I recommend it to every copywriter that I talk with. Um, because a lot of the people I know. I know some really skilled copywriters, you know, know that they are making the same mistake that I did, thinking that if they get their skill up to, like, an indefinite degree, then they'll eventually get client. But. But the problem with that is that copywriting, it can be a little bit abstract, you know, like, you can have the principles, you can have the fundamentals, but you can always improve more and more and more. And maybe that applies for pretty much any skill. But with copywriting, it's just like the. There's no set point where you're like, okay, I'm good enough now. I can make money right now. Where are the clients? Right. So, yeah, that's what I would tell my. My younger self.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think that most of the skills in this game, you can just learn from the client accounts that you on, you know, like the f. If you want to really get good at skill, the, um, you know, improve your skills, the best way to do it is to work with a business that puts you in the position where you need to do it, you know, so it's kind of like you want to actually improve its skills. Then go close the client, and then use that client as the account to grow your skills. And then you can always just. What I've done is just invest in people one to one to solve problems that I like. Let's say you close a client for $8,000 a month, and you don't know how to do anything that you close them for. Like, let's just say somehow you, you know, you lock your way into that, or you sell yourself into an $8,000 position. Let's say you're doing, you know, two editorials, uh, a week, or plus a couple other things. Cool. Go hire an advertorial copy coach. $4,000 a month. Do. Do a call per week or $2,000 a month for the copy coach. You pocket 6K. You, um, you know, you get really good at the skill very quickly. Within three months, you have $18,000 more, and you have the skill.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Versus like, oh, you know, let me go and study advertorial copy um, by myself, go read three books, go watch a couple videos on YouTube and, and then maybe like once I know how to write advertorials, then I'll go and try and close a client. And when I first close them, we just charge three grand a month because I'm not that experienced yet. And, and then I'll kind of build my way up. Like I compare those two. It's like the one that just closes a client and then hires somebody for 2k for like one on one coaching boom. Um, within three months, again, like I said, like $18,000 in the bank versus the person who like does the second approach, watches all the videos, reads all the books, maybe takes them six months before they even uh, finish writing their very first advertorial because it's just, they never get to it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then maybe by the end of the year they close a client after a year. Now they've closed a 3k month client and they're burning out and they're making 3k month. 3k a month is like what, six months worth of work to get that same 18k. So it's 18 months. It takes you 18 months to do. The second approach takes you three months to just do it this way. What's the difference between the two? I would say a lot of it is self belief. Um, but I think the other part of it is getting comfortable with not having a 99 profit margin business. Yeah, like you, like no business should really be at 99 profit margin. Like it's not really a business then it's just you working. Um, obviously certain times in your career. Like right now I'm, I'm currently not getting coaching as of recording this. Like I have not got a coach this month. Probably next month I'll, I'll hire somebody. You know, so there'll be months where you don't have somebody that you're, you're paying. But for the most part it's just a never ending, um, process to just constantly be hiring people to learn.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, and I think that something you said at the beginning, it was uh, very important for me to learn because I think that the way that I was approaching learning copywriting, you know, um, I think that there are some things that you cannot learn unless you have a client that is spending like big money on ads. Right. And um, for me personally, something that would happen early in my career is that I would deliver copy. Like back when it was like Emails. I wasn't doing that many ads or creative strategy, but for me I was. I would just deliver copy on a Google Doc and some of that copy because I was so cheap, the client wouldn't take it like, seriously and a lot of it didn't run. So I would never see the real results of my work. Or maybe it was in some cases where it was a very small email list because I just wanted to take that client to pay the rent. And for me it was, um. There's not a lot of learning to happen in that because, you know, your copy is not being tested. You know, it's not flopping, it's not, um, not working. So I'm in a great position. You know, I have a client spending 4 million a month. And that's really interesting because. Yeah, yeah, because I'm actually working it with my friend Noyes. Um, and it's really interesting because the copy is tested, you get like very feedback very fast on whether it works or not. You don't need that amount of budget to, to get the feedback fast. Right. Uh, but yeah, I would say that it's about testing that and the real learning happens, quote unquote, with the big clients because then you are really testing your copy. So I would say I have also, by a direct product of learning how to sell myself better. I have also learned more in this last year writing copy than I have maybe in the past four years combined. Well, because it's a matter of practicing the fundamentals. And I will get my copy coach and I would spend, uh, a couple hours, even three hours writing a script. And then my coach Vasil is just like, this sucks, this sucks, this sucks. You know, And I would be like, damn, I did my best. You know, and then I would rewrite it and then all of a sudden that lesson is just more internalized and then the next script is better and that's where the real learning happened. And then you start to see the results and the accounts and everything. So. Yeah, I fully agree with what you said. I think also hiring coaches is really important. It. And I also don't have like 100% profit, uh, margin business. You know, I have my little brother working with me. Um, he just graduated high school and I also have a junior at the time being. So yeah, I'm just. I, uh, think it's great though. I think it's a, ah, it's a great position because when you're thriving and this is the first time I'm experiencing this, um, you also help the people around you And I'm pretty sure you could definitely relate, you know, like, um, my girlfriend, for example, she's a graphic designer and video editor and I managed to get her a position, you know, and she's making really good money with an agency and she's building her portfolio. I'm basically transferring the skills I've learned in dojo. I'm teaching them to her.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: Now she's like, commissioning deals, she's negotiating stuff. And I'm like, damn, you're getting good at this. You know, you should definitely open a, uh, designer graphics dojo. Yeah, yeah. A graphic dojo.

Speaker B: Yeah. Media dojo.

Speaker A: Media, though.

Speaker B: Yeah. With a meal. Yeah, that's it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Camera guy, you're hearing this.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: When? Media dojo. When Lambo Media dojo.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think it will be a great offer, by the way.

Speaker B: I think that'd be pretty cool. Uh, we've actually chatted about something similar in the past. Maybe one day.

Speaker A: Yeah, it will be great, I think.

Speaker B: Ah, there's something interesting I realized maybe 12 months ago, around a year ago, I think it might have been something Homozy said that I didn't previously. I mean, resonate with, you know, um, the idea of. Especially because I came from, um, you know, the guru, the guru side of. Of Internet marketing. There's a lot of gurus. In my early career as a corporate, I worked with a lot of gurus and a lot of courses that, you know, I mean, I wouldn't say they were scammy, but they just didn't have a very high success rate. You know, so obviously, like, with that in mind, it's like, well, you know, um, I've always biased or I've always focused on fulfillment because for me that was like, particularly like a problem. I was like, I'm not so happy about the fact that a lot of these businesses have such low success. Um, so if I'm going to be doing coaching, I want to get the success right and worry about the marketing and sales later. And that's why we have like an above 95% success rate, just by the way. It's like, turns out that we have such a high success rate in the dojo, just because that's been basically all I did for five years is just focus on product. Product, product coach, coaching, coaching, community work, you know.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: But, um, what I was going to say is that I think it was Homozy. But anyway, it was, it was a very smart entrepreneur. He said, you, you need sales. Obvious. Right. But you need sales to solve fulfillment. Yeah. And I was like, okay, like, let me think about this. And I'm paraphrasing how it was said. It was, it was said a lot better. But just this concept of. You see a lot of Internet marketers, they do the selling first and then they build the product. And a lot of us were like, uh, you know, like, maybe you should build a good product and kind of like sell it. But there's some truth and some value in the idea that you need to generate enough revenue that you can finance everything else in the business to do it at the top levels. Like, you cannot actually deliver the world's best product if you don't have enough revenue to hire the team to deliver that product. And I think that this is really, um, very, very insightful from, from top business owners. Because it's like in the early days, you think that that makes sense. You're like, yeah, sell, sell, sell. Worry about delivering later. Then you kind of get like up the bell curve. You know that one where it's like the stupid guy on this side and the super smart guy on this side and the guy in the middle that's like, yeah, yeah, like all, like, overthinking everything. It's like on this side, it's sell first, deliver, you know, worry about delivery after you finish selling. The guy in the middle is like, yeah, but what about this and what about this and what about this? And you should do this and you have to do this and you have to solve this. And then the other side, it's like, sell, deliver, um, message after. Yeah. So what it is, is like the same thing with copywriting is like, you want to get really good at the skill. You're focusing on the fulfillment. Yep. If you don't focus on sales, you don't have enough money to hire the best coaches to transfer the skill because you need the one on one coaching. And, um, I thought about this because you were talking about your, your coach. And I really like that. Like, that's one of my favorite things in the dojo is when I hear, like, a corporate. I'm coaching has got other coaches. Yeah. Because I'm like, this is the kind of psychology that you rarely need to win in this industry. It's nothing to do with, um, it's. It doesn't matter who you really. I mean, it does matter who you learn from, but it's in the sense that it doesn't matter to, um, me, like, who, who you learn from. As long as you're learning. Yeah. Then you're going to get better. Right. And I think that, like, a lot of copyright is listening to this. I think take, take note of that is that we have a lot of carpenters at six figures that have other coaches. And there's a reason for that. It's because, coach, there's always something to learn from everybody, and everybody has certain things that their strengths. And it's like, do you really want to try and figure it all out yourself and spend years doing it? It's like that's that same. You're in that middle zone where it's like fulfillment, I don't know. Fulfillment, fulfillment, fulfillment. It's like, yeah, make the money. Then you have the financing to hire the junior if you need it, to hire the coach if you need it, to get into the right network so that you can talk to other businesses so that you can generate more sales. Like, everything starts with that. So, you know, you have to prioritize that sales process. Like, you have to prioritize selling. And then of course, like I would say I spend 80% of my time on fulfillment. You know, like, you still, um, this doesn't. Just because I'm saying you should focus on sales first doesn't mean I'm saying, like, you know, you, you should not prioritize fulfillment. It's. It's just about like the order. You start with sales first, you know, and then you focus on fulfillment, not the other way around. Most copywriters, they work the whole day on all the client work, and then at like 1am they sit on Facebook for 15 minutes.

Speaker A: Okay, I'm going to send a call to you.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I'll tell you something about that, you know, because for me personally, um, now I will be selling myself. I will get a big client, lots of deliverables, and I would be panicking. For the first two weeks. I'm like, okay, I need to work a lot, and I will work 12 hours a day or something like that for the next two weeks just to get the delivery right. You know, I'm getting feedback from my mentor just so I can get them, you know, the best scripts early, you know, quick wins and everything, iterating on their existing concepts. And that's really what delivery looks like, right? Because I think that, um, for me personally, you know, in the past, it would just be like, okay, I got this client, I will do the best I can do. And I would focus on like a month, uh, of delivering on that client, trying to learning how to deliver better, so to speak. But it would be like a short project or something like that. And then I'm like, okay, the project ended. Now I'm back to like the, the roller coaster. You know, I have tonight go do the cold emails again, you know, and that was more like when I was doing emails mostly, like it was like tweaking some automations or something like that. Not with creative strategy, it's obviously more ongoing. Uh, but yeah, I think that's what delivery looks like. You know, just putting yourself out there in the position where you really have to deliver because your copy is going to be tested. It's going to be. Money is going to be spent for people to see your copy, right? Whether it's to read it or to watch it on a video. So you have to do your best. You know, it would be unethical not to. And uh, yeah, that's why I take it very seriously. I take my mentors. You know, I always take advice from you as well. And I would consider you one of my mentors too. It's nice.

Speaker B: Thanks.

Speaker A: And so, yeah, I think that's what real delivery is. And I do that even to this day. You know, when I get hired by a big new client or something, I'm like, okay, crap, we need to deliver to this client. I focus fully. Um, and that's, that's just how I like it. Because I remember in these times, sometimes you'll be very tired, you know, it'll be. You've been working for 10 hours, you can barely write copy anymore. By the way, I do a lot of my copy manually. I don't use that much AI. I use a lot to like edit, maybe like, maybe confirm some research, some mechanisms, et cetera. But when writing, I do it mostly myself. And I'll be writing for like 10 hours and I will be so tired and I would remember, well, I prefer this a thousand times more than how it was for me a couple years ago, three years ago when I was just panicking, like, how am I going to make it to the end of the month? You know, and that would be like. It was. It happened to me like four times when I had to ask money to my dad for rent, which isn't that much. It's like 200 bucks, 300 bucks. And uh, it would just feel like such a defeat, you know, to just be working all month long and not being able to get a client enough to pay the bills.

Speaker B: So over the last year, I've seen something I've never seen before. Copywriters and marketers, they're making more money than ever before, especially the top 1% and if you want to be one of them and you want to join us and you want to get, you know, insights into exactly what's happening in our industry and also get my raw and unfiltered thoughts, the stuff that we're not sharing here on YouTube, then apply to join my email list@list.copywriting.org and. And, uh, yeah, I'll see you in my next email. Now let's get back to the video. You know, I'm, uh, I'm in some ways grateful that my career didn't get to the point where I ever worried about where, like, where the next paycheck would come from. I never really put myself in that position. I did have a taste of it once. I lost a lot of money in crypto back in 2021, and then the tax bill in 2022 hit me, and I didn't have the money for the tax because I. I was being stupid. So. So I was like, oh, okay, well, this is crazy. And I just remember, like, thinking, like, where am I going to get money? You know, where will I get money from? And that was a not so pleasant experience, you know, and it was. But, like, it wasn't so bad because, like, I mean, hey, I wasn't. I was already at 10k asking myself that, you know, so I wasn't. Yeah, I was like, where am I going to get 20k a month? Not, you know, from 10k. Where am I going to get 20k? So, yeah, but. But that, that little feeling there. Plus, also, like, talking with a lot of corporate is, it will message me and they'd be like, yeah, like, I just legitimately don't know what to. Where the next client's coming from. It's like, it's, it's, it's. It's. The right word is terrifying. I think it's. It's like you. You sit there with anxiety, you know, it's like, yeah, like, where am I going to get the income from? And I just. That's why I say, like, you know, this is a new idea for me as well over the last few years. Just, it's. Get the client acquisition stuff as your number one priority. Um, because skills should be a given. It's not so much about, like, should you prioritize it? It's like, that's what you should do. It's not like saying, oh, you know, you should eat. You should eat lunch and dinner. That's just a given that you're going to be eating lunch and dinner so we don't have to have that conversation. We should have a conversation about saying like, yeah, you know, maybe go exercise and prioritize exercise, right. So it's like, that's how I see client fulfillment. It's no longer about like, is it a priority or not? It's just, that's a given. That's just how you operate. So like, what are you doing with your time when you're not delivering for clients? The number one priority should obviously be get better clients or, or renegotiate the deal or.

Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah, I fully agree with you on that. And if you get a good client, you know, there's always like very highly skilled people for hired looking to review your copy, looking to help you improve. So yeah, obviously you need to have like some basics on the fundamentals which for the people watching this interview, they probably have read a couple copywriting books and everything. They know how to put an email together, an ad together, you know, so it's just a matter of when you're delivering to them. But say you get paid, uh, I don't know, 2000 bucks. Well, you spend, let's say 1500 of that in a really good coach or someone who knows the skill for them to critique your copy, deliver the best copy. You're going to get great learning in the process. You're going to deliver great work to your client which can then maybe turn into a retainer in the case that it's like a trial period or in the case that it's a one time project and then, yeah, everyone wins. Right. So your reputation is intact too because you're delivering good work. So I think that's the way to do it. Like you said, client acquisition first and then um, copy would be a closed second.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're gonna have no choice because when this is the thing, like if you have clients and you have deadlines, like you're gonna deliver. So yep, like the deadlines and the fear of losing clients is enough motivation to hold you accountable. So like, I don't worry about it. I always tell corporates like, just push it, push it a few hours later into the day. Start delivering for clients a few hours later. Because the truth is you'll show up for it because the deadline's too scary to, you know, it's too scary to lose the client. Whereas like, there's not as many immediate consequences for not focusing on, yes, your own business. Right. So it's like push that, put that above everything else, um, because you will catch up and finish the rest of the stuff and just trust that and it's, it's done well, you know, like hundreds of people have benefited from that sort of psychology. Yeah. I think the other thing is, um, as you mentioned, you know, like if you get, if you close a two thousand dollar retainer and then suddenly you find yourself now with a, um, yeah, you got two thousand dollar retainer and you're spending fifteen hundred bucks a month.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: How many copywriters have like reached out to me over the years and said, oh, you know, um, I'll work for you for free because I want to learn. It's like, it's kind of the same thing, you know, like you close a $2,000 gig and you invest, let's say $1,500 in a one to one coach. Um, I don't offer that service, just heads up. But like, you know, $2,000, you close this retainer and you do it for $1,500 a month. It's, it's technically like the same thing as when you pitch somebody, hey, I'll do work for free. Just want to learn from you. Exactly the same thing. It's just now you are feeling money enter your account and leave your account. And I think that's a good thing to get used to. Is that sort of that like that feeling of money coming in, money coming out in a healthy way. Don't just use all your money but like, you know, like get this feeling of like money passes through you, it's just another piece of energy. Just like, I guess food passes through you, like emotions pass through you. You know, everything kind of, you're, it just goes through you. Right. It doesn't have to, it doesn't just sit here. If you think of food, if you just eat and just eat and eat, it just sits here and you're gonna get like pretty big, you know. Right. Not, not ideal. Right. So I think that that's, um, I mean I found that I used to be very careful with um, my money to the point where I wouldn't um, spend sometimes, um, at the beginning of my career a little bit. But I, I never was cheap when it came to coaching.

Speaker A: So that's good.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: You have to feel it because sometimes a lot of people, you know, it's like, oh, I'll work for you for free. And I would do this, I uh, would do this early on. And I also learned this from Nabil. It's like I will be testing your copy and let's say that you're sending an email. Let's say that an average email makes me $5,000 if I write it myself, if I get you to work. It's not that good. Let's say it makes me $2,000. I actually paid 3,000 to let you work for me.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. So you are, I am spending money on you. It's just that you're not getting paid directly. Right. So I think that that's ah, um, I feel like what you said about the energy moving is a healthier way to do it. It's also maybe um, a more self reliant way to do it because if you already got one 2k client, it's not that hard to get another one or then to get a 4k 5k client. Right. Because it technically just needs more reps, maybe a better portfolio, um, a better way to present yourself, negotiate yourself. And obviously with experience what happens is that then you can sell ah, yourself more easily. Right. You can uh, for example when I would get ah, a kind of interview which by the way you also helped me with the interview and Johnny helped me with navigating the interviews. Um, he has a great training in dojo. Um, I would try to show myself as the most skilled person for this position. So they will ask me something for example about metrics. And I have learned a lot about metrics working with ads. And I will explain to them down to the detail like the kinds of metrics that I focus on and how I focus on them in order to improve uh, my ads in the future or in order to like iterate on a winner or if the ad didn't win as much I don't really do anymore because I would just, it's easier to just create a net new concept. So yeah, it's a matter of you know, um, just investing in yourself is just um, putting in more reps and yeah, just having a lot of more mentorship than you think is necessary.

Speaker B: I mean that's the secret. I don't know if I have anything else to say. Like that's uh, that's the way to go because everything has already been figured out. You know, especially in our industry. There's no problems that we, there's no real new problems. It's not like you have to solve any of this stuff yourself. Yeah, hundreds of people have already solved it. Most ah of the problems that I've, I've solved I just learned how to solve from other people that already solved the problem, you know. Yeah, if you're solving unique new problems that nobody's, nobody's ever solved before, then maybe, maybe you'd be a Multi billionaire or something, you know, but like, the problems we're solving, they're not particularly unique or uncommon. So it's not. So I would also say that it's like if you're struggling to close clients, just, uh, know that millions of people have struggled with that and solved it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's a matter of, like, trust and confidence because sometimes you're doing it, you're putting in the work and you're like pushing that flywheel, so to speak, and you're not seeing any results. Like, for example, in my early process with applications, like I said before, Dojo, I didn't even know, I think that people were hiring through an application. I thought everyone was doing like, cold email or referrals or whatever.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Or ads. But, you know, it's a matter of, okay, doing it and then obviously getting the right feedback from people who have done it. Very, very important. Because you, you can, I would argue you can figure it out yourself, but it's going to take you way longer. Right. And so even years longer. And at that point, maybe even the market move on to something else or something like that. It's a very difficult, um, to get an ROI on your efforts. So it's just a matter of trusting that, okay, what I'm doing is, is going to work because I'm not doing it any different. You know, I'm not any different than all the other people who have done it. I think we are all the same under the eyes of God, obviously, at the same time, we are all different. But what some person did, I can also do if I just do it long enough. Right. And if I do enough of it. So for me, when I was starting out with these applications, I, I had doubt every day when I was. That was the first thing I would do every day. And I'm like, is this gonna work? You know, I had also the, the feedback loop from previous programs. It's like, I'm not sure, you know, these other programs haven't worked for me. And so I don't know. Um, but it was just a matter of sticking there. And also, Dojo, the cool thing is not obviously, the access to you, which you put like, most of the programs and the training together. It's also networking and befriending other people who are also doing it, you know, and they're also like, pushing their own flywheel. Even the very skilled people, you know, like, sometimes, uh, a big client will leave them and their income gets like a big hit all of a sudden. They're also Pushing the flywheel, right? Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So that's something that. It's really cool. It might happen to me. You know, right now I'm in a good position, but who knows? You know, clients come and go.

Speaker B: Clients come and go.

Speaker A: And so I think that also beyond that is once you've done it a couple times, you also develop the confidence, like, okay, I could lose all my clients right now. And I learned this from Jara, who is an absolute legend, right? I could lose all my clients right now, and I'll find a way to get those clients back, you know, because what you really have, like, the true security, is your skill. So your skill, like we. We were talking about your skill of copywriting and your skill of selling yourself. And if you've done that, a lot of the times you just get like, that, um, confidence that it's like, okay, well, I can lose all my positions. It's not going to be comfortable, of course, but I can just get them back. Yeah. And I think that's the main thing that I would. Circling back to the beginning of the interview, that's probably what I would tell myself, you know, because, um, when I was doing my break into dtc, you know, I had always written for info, and at the beginning I was like, I don't want to go into creative strategy and all that. But for me personally, I really liked it because I had always wanted to write, like, health copy, because I feel like there is a real mechanism behind it, you know, like sometimes in info, they'll be like the Magic Mike method to pick up chicks or something like that, right? And it's like, bro, that's not really, uh, a mechanism, you know, but in health, you do see mechanisms, right? Like, you will see, for example, different. Uh, I worked with a, uh, magnesium brand that has a. There's a reason that I cannot disclose because I'm on the NDA, but it's way more bioavailable than other magnesium bands and stuff like that, that you actually have to go research and read white papers and scientific studies, which I really enjoy. And so I did that breakthrough, and I had, like, everything going against me. You know, I was like, all the negative feedback loops from the past that things had not worked for me. I had zero experience in DTC and all that kind of stuff, and I just did it. And eventually I. I reached out to an agency, I did a test project, and I remember they hired, uh, one of my friends in dojo, John Conroy first, and I was like, damn, I didn't get the job. But I spent uh, about six hours on the test project and the guy, the agency owner was like, you know, buddy, um, yeah, this is a little bit non compliant. You know, you're making some big claims here and obviously we need to hedge them down. Um, but I like your work ethic. You know, I think we could give this a shot. Maybe you can start part time. And that's how I got into dtc, you know, and it was just a matter of doing that. And then I just like did a lot of more scripts, uh, a lot of more creative strategy. Then I applied to other positions and yeah, that's where we are right now. You know, it was just a matter of doing more, getting the right feedback. And I'm lucky to be in a position too where I've also helped a couple people in dojo just because they asked me like, hey, how did you break into D2C after doing a career in info or, you know, I wrote for software a couple times and all that and yeah, that's how I explained it to them basically.

Speaker B: That's cool. Uh, it's interesting. There's so many things, uh, that are the same, like about everybody's story. Everything's different, but at the same time there's parallels. We're having a chat with Noyos the other day and it's like uh, same thing. It's like applications, network.

Speaker A: Great guy.

Speaker B: Consistency. Yeah, great guy. It's like certain things just success leaves clues. Success leaves clues. And the more you're in the space, the more you realize that there isn't actually that many secrets. It's really just about consistently doing the, the two to three things per day that you should be doing, you know? Yeah. Is there anything else that you would share with, uh, with copywriters that are looking to make more money before, uh, we wrap up?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that the main thing that you have to do, aside from getting uh, a mentor and all that, when you're starting out, I don't think you have the luxury to like choose what kind of copywriter you want to be. You know, like for me personally, I would always have thought that I was gonna write emails. Um, before joining dojo, that's pretty much all I wrote. And nowadays I'm writing mostly ads and the copy that comes after that, like advertorials, landing pages, all that kind of stuff. I rarely write an email anymore. Um, I still have an info client. I do write emails for him. Great guy. I'm going to meet him in July. Um, but for me personally, I would Say yeah, sometimes you cannot choose, you know, like at the beginning it will be like, oh yeah, you know, I'm going to write for finance because I like finance and I'm going to write ad, ah, copy. Well, you kind of, that's, that works, definitely might work for, for some people. It definitely did not work for me, you know, because, well, that's part of the reason why I was always like, um, you know, always chasing like clients. There wasn't like a pool of clients like there is currently with creative strategy. And I know that um, a lot of people, it's a relatively new concept. So a lot of people are like, well, what is creative strategy? I'm just getting into copywriting. The reality is that if you are into copywriting, you just need to have a strong sense of visual direction. By the way, just a little parenthesis which you can learn by watching ads. Like if you, if you see like nine figure brands like Rice Superfoods or Spartan or you know, bunch of brands, you know, and you look at it and you try to see what is being conveyed on that, then you have the 80% of the creative strategy dialed in. If you can replicate that into a visual direction, you could even do this with AI if you know how to train it. I have a little bud that I have submitted, uh, like 50 different videos and uh, the visual direction that I've done for those videos, I broke down basically some ads from Rice Superfoods and a bunch of other brands. And now, well, that's like a large part of my creative strategy, you know, and obviously I have to tweak it manually sometimes. But back to my point, you just have to see what the market is hiring if you want to have like a fast breakthrough. That's the main thing I would say, because you could right now say like, yeah, I'm going to do emails for coaching and there are plenty of people doing that. My friend Ben is doing that. He never really took the leap into creative strategy. He's doing great, right? He's taking care of his family and everything. And to my understanding, he has a great income, so he's doing great. But if you're starting out and if you want to start as fast as possible and build a portfolio really quick and develop the skill fast, then at least right now, at the time of recording this interview, I think that creative strategy is the way to, to go. Because, yeah, because I'm having people, you know, because I've, I've also tweaked my LinkedIn profile and everything, which is something I'M working on. If you watch this might be a little bit, you know, I've been traveling, so bear with me. But, you know, I get a lot of inbounds of people reaching out specifically for creative strategy. And it doesn't matter if the rest of the copywriters or anyone else doesn't like the term, because when a business owner reaches out to you, or a CMO or an operator or any kind of partner decision maker reaches out to you, they are going to be using creative strategy terms. Huh? Because that's what they're used to, right? And they'll be like, hey, can you do us these concepts or do we, we need this kind of briefs? And, uh, you know, and, and do you provide the visual direction? They, they will ask all that kind of stuff and that is how you know that. Well, they can be laughing at me because I'm a creative strategist now. I don't care. I am getting these people reaching out to me. And if you say you're a copywriter, you probably are not even getting people reached out to you because the algorithm of LinkedIn is not going to show you. So I would just say, you know, obviously, times change. For now, though, I think the move is going into creative strategy. And if ever in the future you want to write something else, I can guarantee you it will be way easier than if you're just trying to go into niches where it's not that, you know, it's not a lot of money is being moved at the time being right. We had the very hard Andromeda change, uh, like six, seven months ago, and a lot of people started looking out for that more, you know, and it happens all the time with different Facebook regulations and all that. So the best thing is just solidify yourself in one niche. In the end, you're probably going to be liking it because what you really like is to write copies. The whole process.

Speaker B: You also like the money.

Speaker A: Of course. The money is great, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's just like, oh, no, I hate this niche. I'm making 20 grand a month, though. Like, oh, wow.

Speaker A: Yeah, man. Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: You'll start to like it pretty quickly.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course. You know, and it's the same process for pretty much every niche. You know, obviously every single part has its nuances. Like, you wouldn't write a health script the way that you would write an info script. For example. For example, I would have never thought I would write, uh, Facebook ads. I thought it was like before when I was writing emails. I thought that it was like this mystical thing that, like this jungle that you didn't go to. But in reality, it's not that hard. It just requires you a little bit of study, understanding of the metrics and everything. It's not like you're doing the media buying. You're just reviewing the metrics so you can improve later. And yeah, get your solid start in one niche or in one opportunity, capitalize on it, make good money, get great mentors, right? Develop your skill, build a portfolio, learn to close clients. And then if you ever want to go to a different niche, I can guarantee you, with all that experience that you have, it's going to be way easier than if you're just starting out on your own and trying to, you know, punch a wall until it finally breaks open for you. So that would be my final advice.

Speaker B: Well said, man. Thank you so much. Where can people find you?

Speaker A: Well, they can find me on, uh, LinkedIn. Um, Alejandro Martinez, or Alejandro Writes Copy. I think it's the URL. I'm not sure. And yeah, on my Facebook, I basically post the same thing. Those are my two channels for now.

Speaker B: Cool. We'll put the link in the description. Thanks so much for your time, man.

Speaker A: Absolutely, my friend. Great to be here.

Speaker B: Yeah.