Joy - Key to organizational productivity growth

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to another episode of the COO's Corner podcast, the COO Corner, where you get an exclusive look into insider secrets on how COOs and industrial leaders drive success in the world of business, operations, leadership, personal growth and resilience. My name is Tamara Nelson, your host and a specialist in the area of operational resilience. And today we are exploring the topic of Joy, the key to organizational productivity growth. Many today are in search of that key operational strategic thing that boost their productivity and goals. Could we have found that magic bullet? Please listen in and find out more today. Our guest is none other than Marguerite Orin, the owner of the company Free and, uh, Laughing Incorporated. Her commitment is to help others live, work, and lead with joy. Margarita Rain is dedicated to changing the way we live and work so that we do it with Joy. Joy. She coaches leaders in realizing the value that joy and happiness bring into the people and the profits within the organization. Her experience as an entrepreneur, a, uh, Harvard mba, her curiosity about the mysteries and delights of the world, and her daily spiritual grounding through mindfulness meditation are the foundation of this work. I. A little backstory. I met Marguerite probably close to 20 years ago. That was a while now. I just finished my masters. I don't know if you remember Marguerite. And, um, the company I was working for, I needed us. Needed a strategic plan done for the first time. And I did the groundwork and online and looked what was happening around and I phoned batteries, they, they. And that's how we started talking. But eventually they had decided that, oh, no, Tamar can do this. Which I did. And, uh, I learned a ton from. It was a very enriching experience. But I've been a fan of Marguerite and her work ever since. We have connected and she has always been free and laughing. Margaret, welcome to the podcast. Delighted to have you.

Speaker B: Thank you, Tamar. It is my joy to be here.

Speaker A: Awesome. Um, guys, you're in for a treat. Let me tell you that. Now, we have been on this podcast talking about all things affecting operational, organizational, personal growth and success. You know, what was. What does Joy have to do?

Speaker B: Well, um, let me give you, um, the expert. So in, um, January 2012, I was walking through the Miami airport and I passed, you know, the bookshop and I saw this magazine with a smiley face on it. No, I love smiley faces. Right, of course. Joyful. People love things like that. And I stopped and I looked and it was a. What? Harvard Business Review. And I'm like. And it's had the value of happiness. How employee. Well, being Drives profits. So, you know, I had to buy the copy and you can see how worn it is. Right. I've had it for 12, for 10 years. And um, so I read it and I was like, oh my gosh. Because here was research from whereups. Harvard Business. Right. Harvard Business School. That said what they found is that happy employees were 31% more productive, three times more creative. And companies, businesses with happy employees had 30% more profitability. So Tamara, you're in the productivity space. You tell me which are your product productivity strategies and techniques can give you that kind of results. Not many.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely a conversation to have. Uh, Marguerite, Uh, especially now because I think, um, that the, the pandemic would have drained a lot of the joy out of the workplace. And what I am seeing now with the persons that we interact with on a day to day basis, our stakeholders, our cl. Uh, you know that the new pandemic is burnout. And when you're burnt out, it's hard to have joy. Right? Yeah. So it's, it's, it's. I call it the new pandemic.

Speaker B: I think you're right.

Speaker A: So, ho, ho, you know, these things is something that we all can have. Is that, uh, something that you buy off the shelf?

Speaker B: Not at all.

Speaker A: How might we, as ah, leaders build this culture of joy in the workplace?

Speaker B: So, um, so I think you're. First of all, you're absolutely right about the pandemic and the impact. But the truth be told is that most workplaces weren't so joyful before the pandemic anyway, which is why people don't want to go back into the workplace. Right. So if you are finding resistance to your people wanting to go back to work and so on, uh, you need to check yourselves. It wasn't. So there's no going back to anything. We have to move forward. But I do agree with you, Tamara, that people, you see, I think people thought that when it was over, whatever over meant that things would go back to normal. Well, there's no normal. As you said, burnout is really the new normal. Right. Uncertainty and so on. So, so, and plus the pandemic, not really over, whatever that means. So we're in this limbo and people are not feeling very grounded. Um, lots of things have happened and it's a very unsettling time. And then organizations are now playing catch up as well because some of them, some did well during the pandemic, others didn't, and so they now have to play catch up. So there's a lot of press aggression out There. So what does a leader do? Because the leader has to lead, right? Well, the first thing the leader has to do is to make sure that the leader, him or herself, comes from a place of joy. So you can't turn up to work with a miserable m. Face, grumpy, disrespectful, not talking to anybody, and say, okay, time for joy doesn't work. You've gotta turn up. And I. From a place of joy. And you said something very important. Joy is innate. It is within us. You look at babies, you look at children. Uh, just look at them. They're just full of joy, right? They're laughing. Everything is possible. They're exploring, they're curious. You know, Everything is just a wonder. If you ever watch a baby look, or a little toddler looking at a flower or a piece of grass or something, anything, they do it with this scent of wonder and wonderment and joy, you know? This is fabulous. The world is an exciting place.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: All right. So that's how your leader, uh, wants to be, right?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And I'm a huge proponent, and I do this in my coaching and in my leadership training, that before you go to work, you need to ground yourself, enjoy. Or if not even joy, just get calm and peaceful with yourself. So I highly recommend that you establish a morning routine, what I call a, uh, morning ritual of caring for mind, body and spirit. Very important. Even 10 minutes of doing this every single day puts you in a, uh, much better place. There is a lot of research about successful CEOs, and I would say most of them wake up early and have some kind of morning ritual. They exercise, they meditate, they read. Whatever it is, they do something that grounds them. Now, here is where I always get groans.

Speaker A: Oh, no.

Speaker B: Which is when I say that you do this before you check your cell phone, and people freak, right?

Speaker A: Because you know that the cell phone is now, uh, an appendage to the body. It's something that we can't live without. It goes everywhere with us. You know, usually, you know, before. Before we had cell phones, you know, on a wall somewhere in the kitchen, far away. So you carry room, the bedroom. It's everywhere. How do we get.

Speaker B: Yeah, I. I have a theory that, um, in a few generations, babies will be born with b. With cell phones in their hand. Right?

Speaker A: So.

Speaker B: But seriously, what the cell phone does is that it brings the outside world into your world, into your orbit, before you are grounded and ready for it. So if the first thing you do is you open your eyes, reach for the cell phone to see oh gosh. Is there a text from the boss or you know, who invade who last night and who dropped nuclear bomb and all that kind of thing. You don't have a chance for joy. So here's what I do. My phone sleeps in a totally different room. Actually sleeps in my office, which is. Well, I'm m. In a two bedroom condo in Toronto. So it's not that big, but it's still big enough that for the first two, uh, one and a half two hours that I'm awake, I don't. I have no idea what has happened in the world out there. And it is so grounding for me. I am peaceful. Um, I feel, I just feel this sense of power and control over my life. And from that place.

Speaker A: Yeah. You can now lead from a place of joy.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: What would you say to the CEO or the CEO listening or any C suite for that matter, listening in. That would say I don't have an hour and a half, two hours in the morning. I, uh, to do this. Drowning. And what is this? M. You know, do I have to do it? Can I do it three times a week and that's okay?

Speaker B: No, every day. If you can't take 15 minutes every morning, even 15 minutes to do this, then something wrong with your life. Come to me for coaching. I'll help you

Speaker A: heard that?

Speaker B: Seriously? Seriously. If you cannot take 15 minutes to just settle yourself, then what are you going to be like when you get to work? You're going to be a monster. And many leaders are. So that's the first thing. And you've got to, um, turn up grounded, calm. And when I say joyful, I don't mean I'm kind of exuberant on what they would say in Jamaica, laughy, laughy. I'm not always like this. I turn up very seriously, but I'm joyfully serious, if you get what I mean. So when I'm doing strategy work, I'm m very serious. Um, but I'm smiling as well, because that's just me. But I don't mean that you're necessarily as animated or, you know, exuberant as I am. You find your own level of joy. I think the main thing is that you feel grounded, calm, and in some semblance of control of yourself because there's nothing else you can control. Okay. All right. So there are a number of things, I think on the bigger, um, in the bigger realm of things. I think one of the things to get very clear on as a leader are the core values of the organization because that's the root of your culture. Core C O R E. But it's also so also C O E U R, which is French for heart. So it's a heart values of the, of the organization. So you want to get very clear on those. What do I mean on that? Not just the words, you know, integrity, um, um, accountability, you know, the standard words you would see. And then you sit up on the wall and it looked nice. And that's it. It's actually getting clear about what these core values mean in terms of the behaviors, how people are supposed to behave, and the underlying assumptions that they have that you all share. And in this articulation of the core values and the culture, that is where, if you wish, you may bring in, um, expressions of joy in terms of your vision for the culture. I actually do a. In my work of visioning, you know, what's this culture that we want it to be? Um, and that's grounded in core values. And then when you get clear on that, now you have to do a number of things. First of all, you and your leadership team have to live these core values. So you can't say your core value is respect. And, um, you know, say good morning to people, which. Tamara, I cannot tell you how many organizations, when I work with people, you know, you're doing these workshops with the employees, and they're like. And I'm not say good morning. You know, miss. It happens so often. I can't believe it. Uh, appalling, right? Anyway, so the CEO has to lead the culture. This is not something that the CEO shunts off to hr. HR is there to support the culture, but the CEO has to live it and be seen, not talk it, to be actually seen living the culture, behaving in a way that was articulated around the culture.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: And then, of course, the leadership team, he or she has to insist that the leadership team does the same. And then they insist that they. And so on. And it cascades. What we tend, tend to find, happen very often with culture is that, um, you know, oh, well, we need to do trading. We need to train people. Um, I trained them. And I'm like, whoops, let's work on ourselves first. Let's work on leadership first. Because, listen, what leadership does, people are looking on and say, yeah, all right,

Speaker A: so the next thing, in our last, uh, episode. Yes, our last, uh, podcast episode dealt with stress. And I think this, this follows right in line with that, you know, stress. I know we're talking about joy. And one of the things that I said in that interview With Scarlet that as leaders, you know, how we manage our teams, you know, we really have to start with ourselves because it's inside job first.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Have to manage ourselves first so that we can help them. Right?

Speaker B: Uh, that's right.

Speaker A: And to embody those values. And as you rightly said, you know, a lot of times we have these acronyms that spell out our values and it look nice and plaques. But what does it really mean to. Yep. You and what you ask the questions. When you go in organizations, you'll find that it means something else to. To some.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You know, Joy for me is different. Joy for you, Joy. But what the team needs to do, including the leadership, is to come together, uh, and define what.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: And how we show up. What does it look like that happens. Then everybody knows when something is not in line with the values and come into. I said, no, no, no. That's not how we operate here. That's not in line with our core values because they know. They know understand that everybody's on the same page. And when happens, we can then leave with Joy. Because it's not just the leadership alone that is moving things. Everybody has a part to play and everybody sees their role in the whole situation. So excellent points there.

Speaker B: So, you know, and it really not hard with Jamaican people, you know, because we innately joyful. It really not hard. You know, it's not hard.

Speaker A: A song. A song comes to mind. Marguerite.

Speaker B: Which one? Oh, yes. Don't worry.

Speaker A: Be happy, Be happy.

Speaker B: By the way, I must tell you that, I mean, I'm a solopreneur. I work from my office here in Toronto, and I do workshops and stuff. But music is a very big part of Joy because it said that music speaks directly to the soul. It passes all the logical neural pathways and just goes to the soul. So I actually have a. What I call a joyous morning playlist that I play every morning when I come into my office. But I also played at workshops. When I start my workshops, that's what they. Because again, first of all, I have to make sure that as a facilitator, I turn up joyful. And also that I create an environment for Joy, which is a next thing now. So, you know, you've gotten clearer on the culture, all right? And culture is about how people behave. But what about the context? What about the environment? What does your workplace look like? You know, um, do a walk around. You know, is it nasty and dirty or dull and boring? You know, the physical environment is very, very important. And the other part of Environment or context are your systems and procedures. And this is where it gets really, really fun. You really should go through all your processes, all your systems to make sure that they are joyful. What do I mean by that? It means that you take out anything that is going to cause angst and consternation unnecessarily for your team members and your customers.

Speaker A: Customers.

Speaker B: So you're going through and you say, well, is this really necessary? Why are we asking the customer to do this? Why are we asking them to enter the name and address five different times? No, we need to figure out. Because all of those things cause frustration and are hurdles and barriers to joy for the customer as ah, well as for your team members. So you have to go through your processes and see how can I make these joyful, I. E. Easy and welcoming to use.

Speaker A: And that's what we Six Sigma as non value added activities or waste activities. So these are activities.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Are not adding any value to the customer. It's not sparking any joy, you know, at uh, using Margaret's terms. It's not, you know, it's just costing money, time, energy, resources that could actually be used, you know, to help um, build and grow your organization and bring real, a real experience to all the stakeholders involved. So absolutely. This is something you don't want around you, you know, physical with. But you know, these are ways that are hidden that are usually done over time. Especially the older organizations, they would over time building these things now. This is the way we have always done things.

Speaker B: I know.

Speaker A: And so it's hard to change especially when they have built it from scratch and they are seeing it grow and it's their baby. You know, we can't do without this step. But you know it's really thinking differently particularly. No, I think it's something key earlier Margaret, that um, you know these things would have always been at plain organizations. Um, but it is. No, a light is being shown on it a little bit.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah, I remember one, one client came to me and she said um, you know, uh, my team has been complaining that you know, they are really burnt out that the workload is too much, uh, you know, since COVID And I said but your company is known for having heavy workload. So for even prior to, you know, so it, it has really shone that light. And I think persons now want a, a new narrative, a new paradigm, a new way of doing things. So this is the prime opportunity for everyone to include joy. So any other tips on, on that? So we, we have spoken about um, you know, a Few things already.

Speaker B: So I'll add one more, which maybe more than one actually it. Because it goes deeper is the whole issue around, um, team member involvement. M. This is not something, as you know from your work in productivity that you mandate and say this is it, because there is no buy in and people will just resist you, like, oh, really? M. Okay, make me show him and just go into a passive resistance mode. Right. So it's so important to have conversations going to genuinely involve people, not just in the definition and the. Of the culture, but also even in the processes and ah, so on. Because so often as leaders, as managers, we redesigning procedures and so on and so forth and we don't consult with the people on the front line who know without any big, um, you know, fanfare and who have been saying long ago, why this thing not working and you know, the customer's complaining and we're not listening. So I think it's really, really important that we involve the team in defining what this culture of joy means, what's important to them, but also how do we get it embedded in our systems and processes and uh, sort of, um, aligned to that is the importance of uh, measurement. Uh-huh. You know, remember I'm an advocate of the balance scorecard. What you measure, you manage, what you manage gets done.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: And we kind of have this feeling that, well, culture is kind of eerie, fairy and calm. You can measure it so that you can manage it. And so you want to be doing, um, at least annually, uh, team member survey. And you want to be asking questions about culture. You can include it in your annual team engagement survey. And not only are you asking. So you're asking, um, to what extent I, uh, like to. These are two approaches that I include in my surveys. To what extent are you living the culture and to what extent do you see others living the culture? And that's so many times there's a mismatch because people say I'm living it, but others are not. So there's a mismatch, but you start to get a feel of um, the stickiness of the culture, what's resonating, how people are living and living it and where you need to improve. I also recommend though, Tamar, that you do some spot surveys throughout the year as well. Um, just a sort of pulse surveys, depending on the size of your organization. I actually was reading yesterday, and I'll forget um, which CEO it was, but he was saying he has like thousands of employees in America. But he says that what they do in their organization is that they, they survey the team member on their, their anniversary date of starting in the organization. And I thought that was a really, really interesting, um, approach. And even with a small organization, you know, on the anniversary of their, of the person starting, you said, hey, let's have a conversation. How are things going, you know, outside of formal performance evaluation and so on. But you start to gather, uh, information and get feedback about how the culture, how, how it is progressing in terms of what you had identified that you wanted it to be.

Speaker A: Right. Because, and I, and I had that point, you know, to bring up because especially me talking about building operational resilience, especially now, uh, measurement is key. You can't improve what you can't measure. And as I said, what gets measured gets done. And you know, you spoke about some systems that you can put in place in terms of measurement and monitoring systems. You can have those spot checks, those surveys. Well, how do you measure joy? Barometer, you know, minimum.

Speaker B: This is something that Brown. This is something that has puzzled, um, all of the researchers and survey and you know, that there is, I don't know, you may have heard of Bhutan, the Kingdom of Bhutan in the Himalayas. They actually have a gross. They measure Gross National Happiness. Actually, they're not just gdp, they're also gnp, Gross National Happiness. Um, and organizations, what they found that the only way to really measure joy or happiness is to ask people, you know, how joyful are you? How happy? You know, there's no other way, it's just how people feel. Um, so far that's the only way to do it that I have seen. And I think it's very valid, you know, ask people.

Speaker A: I'm seeing too. Marguerite, is that, um, many organizations are now having a Chief Happiness Officer, a C. Cho. Right. Who is the person that's responsible for happiness levels within a company and you know, typically works along with EHR and is focused on improving, well, being of the company's employees. I've seen a lot more of that, yes. Worldwide. And uh, I think when you have someone that's focused on it, you know, and you know, you may say see more happiness around, more joy and happiness

Speaker B: happening, but that person is a support to the CEO. That person is, or that post cannot be the one that takes on the load of happiness all on him or herself, because if there's a disconnect with the CEO, it will not happen. So it just has to happen that way. But it was wonderful. I mean, I can't understand why wouldn't a CEO choose to be joyful? Like, yeah, that's a fun part of the job.

Speaker A: So what's one of the things that you see happening in the workplace today, Marguerite? That is a huge mistake. And a lot of people are making this mistake in companies and organizations as it relates to joy and happiness.

Speaker B: Will, uh, first, I think if we go to the nice word news nowadays mindset, um, you know, when, when I started on this joy journey, um, you know, sometimes I get this like, glaze over, you know, you're not serious. We can do serious work and be joyful. So there is a belief, and this is what we explore in a culture as well, which, when you're defining the culture, what are our beliefs about joy is what place does joy have in the workplace? Um, because some people believe that joy is here and serious work is here and never the twin shall meet. And if you believe that, then, um, you have no chance in the hell of having a joyful culture. Right. So I think you want to explore your beliefs around joy and to actually recognize that joy has a value to your bottom line. And that's why I walk with this all the time. Just in case you don't believe me. Check the research here. And there's, since then, there's way more research and there are courses on it. And it's just wonderful. What, what is happening. Yeah, so, so it's really to test that.

Speaker A: Yeah, sorry about that. Gallop in 2021 did a study that said that 85% of persons in the workplace are disengaged and 53% are unhappy at work. Right. But, uh, it also mentioned that more engaged employees will contribute over 35% in terms of, uh, productivity improvement. So, you know, if we are in a boat and we're all in the same boat and different levels of engagement, it's a huge problem. And it's something that we really need to, to look into and to see how we can improve and drive, um, happiness at work. Which brings me to my next question. Um, you know what? I've seen some drivers of, uh, happiness. You know, some, some persons will say, you know, when I, I think I bounced it off this, this topic of a few persons and the person you say, well, make sure they get more pain and that will drive the happiness. What say you, Marguerite?

Speaker B: Okay, so we want to distinguish between joy and happiness. So joy is the innate feeling, um, of um, I want to say pleasure. But it's not just pleasure, just an innate feeling of well being and wellness within you. Happiness is the feeling of well being that you get from external stimuli. So something happens and you're happy. I don't need anything to happen for me to be joyful. I can just, I mean I am never more joyful than when I'm sitting with my eyes closed in meditation, not naming. I'm just sitting there and just so joyful. So we want to distinguish that. So um, some of the things that, you know, it's interesting you mentioned the Gallup poll, but also Gallup also said that the number one reason why people are disengaged and leave their work is their relationship with their immediate supervisor. Right. And money is kind of down on the list. No, I am not saying that people are not to be paid and paid what they're worth. Absolutely. People must be paid what they're worth. But that in and of itself is not going to make somebody happy. It will give a temporary boost. You know, like you get a raise, you feel yeah, I got happy. And then uh, by the time the third paycheck comes you're like. But it not stretching anywhere and they're not making me any happier again. And so you want more. Right? So, so the money part of it um, is a ness is necessary but it is not the be all and end all. There are issues around recognition and meaning. People need to know that their work matters. You know the most basic question that we ask ourselves, I think philosophically, why am I here? What's the meaning of my life? We, you know, you ask yourself that, right. And you spend over half of your life at work, half of your days at work.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Why am I, what's the meaning of my job? How am I contributing? We all want to know that when we leave this plane, which we're all going to, that we have made a difference, hopefully positive to people's lives. We want to know that when we leave an organization we have made a difference. So I think helping people to find meaning is very, very important. How does their job contribute to the overall well being of the organization? And um, further I'll give you a little example that I just love. So many years ago actually 2004 when I was in Jamaica we had growth facilitators and we hosted a one day seminar with professor um, Robert Kaplan who was a co architect of the balance scorecard. And we invited um, the principals of six schools um, including Bulmas. So afterwards Boys and Girls, um, afterwards um, they came to me. I remember it was Mr. M. Mary who was the um, principal of the boys school at the time. And he came to me and he said listen Margaret, Margaret, this is so exciting. You have to help us, you have to help us. We're like, uh. So we embarked on this thing to do the balance scorecard in schools. And I could have a whole conversation about balance scorecard at Wolves. But anyway, so we did the balance scorecard with the Wilma schools. The first time ever the schools were ever coming together to plan together as one school. M. Um. And Colleen Montague was the, um, principal. Was a principal then and still is. Fabulous, fabulous lady. I like her. No more on fan. Anyway, so we had this. So we were, you know, working on the rollout and the implementation. And she came and she called me and said, marie, you know, we have a problem with the ancillary workers. They, they're not really understanding and seeing themselves in this strategy business. This. So I said, okay, let's have a session with them. So we had a session with them and in the balance scorecard we have what we call a strategy, um, map, which is a one page, um, picture of the strategy that actually is very, very powerful. A one page represents the whole strategy. And so we went to them and we had this conversation. Where do you see yourself in the strategy? And all of a sudden they had this light bulb moment that, oh my gosh, hold on. We are important contributors to the learning, the teaching and learning process because the students can learn in a dirty classroom. And, uh, you could just see the light open up when they realize, you know, I could here not just a clean place, but I'm actually helping these kids learn when, uh, they graduate from Wilma's, as all will do, become wonderful contributors to society.

Speaker A: What a geese? As an old girl myself.

Speaker B: Exactly. So this is, you know, this is when we have to understand that when people come to work, they come to work not just for the pay. Yes, they might say that, but really they want to come to work to make a difference. And when you can, um, tap into that, then I don't want to say all hell break loose. It's more like all joy breaks loose. And people are engaged and they're open to all the new things that are coming up, the new ways to be productive, to do work better, to serve customers, whatever it may be.

Speaker A: It's like you ignite a fire.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And it just burns within them. So it's not just in one person. And it's contagious. It's close to the organization. Everybody is, you know, contributing. Uh, I want to contribute. If they are included in the decisions, they feel a part of what's happening. And you know, according to, you know, my former, uh, CEO you know, he. He just passed. He always spoke to us about, you know, what is your legacy? You know, what is it that you want to. When you are. When you have passed on.

Speaker B: You know, I. I am a mixed feelings about this legacy thing. Um, because you really don't know what your legacy is going to be. Somebody determines what your legacy is. I believe in doing good now.

Speaker A: Yeah, but you have.

Speaker B: Future generations will judge legacy.

Speaker A: Leave a legacy. Absolutely.

Speaker B: Just do what you need to do

Speaker A: now on a daily basis. Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. So one of the things, though, with this thing around meaning is that very often you'll find that. That excitement and that spirit in volunteer organizations. I don't know if you've noticed that organizations that are run or highly, um, you know, motivated by volunteers, you find that. And you wonder how to get things done. Get things done because of meaning. And if we can get that sense of meaning into a government department, a ministry, a business. Can't stop us. Can't stop us.

Speaker A: The problem lies when there is a disconnect. Right. And just like any circuit, when there's a break in the connection, the energy won't flow through the circuit. The light bulbs won't come on.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: There will be no electricity in the sockets. You can't power the organization through the disruptions. And so it's to get everybody connected and joyful as well. And, you know, when you heard this speaking, I remember that exercise that I did, uh, with the team, you know, a few months ago there, you know, I saw where, you know, there was discord and everybody is like, oh, that person is not doing. That person is not doing anything. Oh, you know, it's the worst place and so forth. And I said, okay, I'm calling you guys into a meeting. And everybody was like, okay, what, is she going to come? Everybody come with their hand full of said, yes. No, we going get, you know, think. And I just. Everybody so sticky. What is it that you. One thing about each person that you appreciate.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Yes. I started off with them.

Speaker B: Gratitude is a must.

Speaker A: Uh, it drives the whole thing. Once they started to do that.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Put it as a. Stick it up for each person. So each person has like six or seven things. And when they look and say, each person going to stand up and read what others say about themselves. And they read through the list and you just saw the joy, the smiles that came.

Speaker B: The seat.

Speaker A: Ah, air was just light and happy.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Strategy session afterwards. Right. It was the most delightful conversation. I said, do you realize that all the strength that you have here, you could. You you know, you don't even need me here.

Speaker B: I mean, you guys, they need you to remind them. So that is my strategy sessions. We do icebreakers and activities, and sometimes I don't want any boring ice. I said, look, icebreakers serve a purpose. You're setting the context. Right, but what you. You said something important there, Tamar, is that the other thing is that we have to learn to have different conversations, types of conversations with each other. First of all, we need to have conversations with each other. We need to recognize that telling people to do something, you know, I gave instructions. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Uh, that's not a conversation that does not engage anybody. Anybody. That doesn't get anybody bought in at all. And then you wonder. I gave instructions, but they didn't do it.

Speaker A: I'm like.

Speaker B: And you said, right. So we have to learn to have different conversations with people, conversations that are respectful as a foundation. Even when having conversations where you may have to point out things that need improvement, things that are not good, things that, you know, sometimes he may require somebody to be terminated and let go, you can still have that conversation in a respectful way. Right? So we have to learn to have hard respect. Yes. Well, I. We just have to learn how to open and listen. And part of those conversations is also being able. You see, you have to come to it from a place of, um, equality. Now, when you're having a conversation, I'm not boss and you're a subordinate. No, it's just two human beings having a conversation. And therefore, as a leader, you have to be open and invite and encourage, um, honest feedback from the other party and be gracious about receiving it, because you can't be asking feedback for feedback. And then you get it, and then you get defensive. Well, you know, I was only do. No, you just say, oh, thank you very much. Um, so what else. What do you think I could do to correct this situation? You know, so we have to learn how to have different types of conversations. School, our education system doesn't do a good job of conversations because, you know, it's a teacher here and, uh, telling, telling, telling, telling. And those who talk too much, they talk back, and they get sent to the principal's office and so on. So there has to be a relearning when people get into the workplace now in terms of these different types of conversations that are just heart to heart, just human, because that's what we are. That's what people are when they come to work. Just human beings.

Speaker A: Yeah, we're human. First they're human first. And we need to get back to that uh, a more people centric style

Speaker B: of leadership where you know, when we never were there. See and that is another thing we need to understand. We need to know our history. Okay, great. Because many of us still living out the history in terms of how we so called lead. So we need to understand our history. Um, not to be bound by it, but just so that we understand the baggage which we are bringing with us as we have moved through the centuries

Speaker A: of being Jamaica and not continue with the, the uh, you know, this is how they. I've always done. This is how my poor. This is how I. This is in my DNA kind of thing. But it really means, you know, based on what we're seeing, that's necessary now, uh, a large amount of vulnerability, uh, you know, you know, and hearing some of the comments, not oh my gosh, I'm being triggered by it and lash out in the conversation but you know, being respectful as you said, um, you know, having that open and honest conversation because that's where the learning and the growth happens really. Because there, there's always, you know, we speak about the Johari window from long time. You know, we are, there are aspects of ourselves which we won't see. Uh, but others will see. And it's like opening up ourselves that we can find out what these things are and actually build on them and grow so that we.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Allow others to grow. Because the organization won't grow if we are not growing as leaders.

Speaker B: Well, it might grow. You know, you do have some organizations that grow, but they grow at a price.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know. Yeah. And I grow at a price which wants to pay that price. And if you, if you didn't have that type of leadership then it would grow even faster or better. Yeah. Have a greater impact. So. Yeah.

Speaker A: So you know, we could talk about this topic for a very long time.

Speaker B: I'll come back.

Speaker A: But you know what, where are some places that uh, persons can go to find joy resources, you know, um, well

Speaker B: I can come to me. So, so for sure. Um, I publish ah, fortnightly blog. Um, where I speak about um, leadership. Simple practical things to do around leadership. And I also do a fortnite Fortnightly. Alternate that with a fortnightly newsletter in which I share resources. I have a theme and I'll share resources. Typically a mindfulness moment. A uh, quote, an article or two, a podcast, a video, sometimes some music, just some resources because I recognize that people are really, really busy. Um, and so my job is to curate These resources, um, and help share them with people. Um, every now and then I'll do a book list or I'll do a book review. Um, that in terms of a book that I found very helpful. I just finished reading one that's just blown my mind. It's um, Discipline is Destiny by Ryan Holiday. He's a, he's studied the Stoics and it's just fantastic.

Speaker A: Great.

Speaker B: It's really.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But let me.

Speaker A: Give me some.

Speaker B: Oh no, I don't know where I put it. Anyway,

Speaker A: Yeah, so you know Marguerite on LinkedIn. So you can.

Speaker B: I'm on LinkedIn Instagram, I'm not on Twitter anymore because it's not a joyful place. So remove yourself from company that is not joyful. So I came up Twitter, but I am on Facebook still Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. And, and feel free to um, you know, to subscribe to the, to the newsletter. Uh, you get a lot of value from it. And um, actually one of the joys of medit m of um, the pandemic, the blessings. There are blessings, you see, we have to count our blessings. So one of the um, icebreakers I used to do in, during the pandemic is what's a blessing from this pandemic. One of the blessings was that I ah, had time because I wasn't traveling anymore. And you know, my clients were not thinking of strategy too, too much. They were like, we need to just, you know, pay the bills. Right. So I had time. So I use the time well and I became a uh, mindfulness meditation teacher which has. Meditation has been so powerful in my life in terms of grounding me. I've uh, meditated for decades. Um, and so I decided to become a teacher. So now I really, I would, I just want people to engage in this practice of mindfulness and meditation. It's part of the calming and grounding. So I've recently launched an online program that anyone can access at any time. It's not free but of great value. So that's another resource that is available, um, to you. So there's lots, um, that you can find.

Speaker A: So what would you say to the person that's in mindfulness meditation? Isn't that woo?

Speaker B: Uh, well, first of all, I don't

Speaker A: even know what woowoo means.

Speaker B: I hear it all the time and I, I think, I think it's very. I actually, I don't take offense to things, but I don't like it because I think what, what it, it's very judgmental and it is saying that it Is typically. It refers to non Western, um, practices, you know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Meditation comes from the east and so on and so forth. That's been my experience. So meditation is simply around sitting still, closing your eyes and getting your thoughts. Your mind, I don't want to say under control, but calm, let's just say calm. And that in and of itself is of great value. So many times I will not even use the word meditation. There are some religions that don't like it, even though meditation is mentioned in the Bible quite a bit.

Speaker A: But anyway, that's what I was about to say. To say exactly.

Speaker B: I'm like, we think Jesus was doing out in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights. What,

Speaker A: um, Think that person need to be fearful of?

Speaker B: No, no, no, no, no, no. Not at all. Because it's. It's you. If you're fearful of meditation, then what are you fearful of? Yourself. Your thoughts. Now, I will say, though, that, you know, if there are serious issues with mental health, then you need to take care of your mental health and go and see your mental health, you know, therapist or psychiatrist or that kind of thing. Um, meditation can work in conjunct with that. But if someone comes to me with some serious mental health issues, I am not qualified to deal with that at all. And I will first to admit that. So, yeah, this is. But. But it's a wonderful, wonderful practice to, to ground yourself and get calm and life. Just let me tell you, when I. The days, if I miss a day or two of meditation, I feel the difference. That day is like, well, why isn't they going like this? Well, and I go back to my meditation. I'm like, oh, this is lovely.

Speaker A: Life is good. Key part of sustaining our joy so that we can help our organizations today.

Speaker B: So absolutely.

Speaker A: To ask, you know, to step into my shoes for a little bit. Is there anything that I, uh, should have asked that I didn't ask in the. In the discussion today?

Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Um, I can't think of anything offhand. Um, you're a wonderful interviewer, so our wonderful conversationalist. You did warn me to be just a conversation, and it was. So thank you very much, because you were listening.

Speaker A: Yes, thank you. So, Margaret, we have come to the end of the interview, but I do have one last question for you that I ask all of my guests, because I do believe there is power in questions that you ask. So in your career, what is one question that you frequently use when you're working with teams to get the best outcomes?

Speaker B: What's keeping you up at night.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, that's a good one. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, what's keeping you awake? What's bothering you? Because if we can't get to that, then we can. If you identify the problem, you're halfway to the solution, so.

Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It gets you straight to the pain points, you know, exactly where I need to focus so that. Yes, you connect. Right. With the problem areas.

Speaker B: Yeah. And every CEO has something and I just don't know one thing, like the one thing. I don't need a litany, but the one thing that is just like, man, um, this thing really bothering me.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That's lovely. Thank you for that question and a wonderful interview. It was great talking with you, Margaret.

Speaker B: Thank you. Tamara M. Always wonderful conversation.

Speaker A: Thank you for sharing with us your wisdom today. Thank you, you know, to your list. Doesn't want to. Thank you for listening. Hope you enjoyed the session today and you know, share with us what you like most about this episode. Please reach out to Margaret and find out more about her mindfulness online course. Uh, that helps, you know, deal leaders, deal with stress and you can find more@, ah, margarite.com mindfulness meditation. And I'll put these in the show notes so you'll have the link so that you can get and find out more about these. So I hope that this conversation has moved you all to do something a little bit differently going forward. And please share with us, you know, what changes and the results have been and you know, feel free to reach out to me too@tamaramaNelson.com or on LinkedIn amara-nelson and if you want to, if you'd like to be a guest star to just share your feedback or suggestions, you know, please reach out to me. I'd love to hear from you. Uh, you know, share with your friends as well if you think that they might find this conversation valuable and uh, join us again for another information value packed episode. So until next time, as we always say in Jamaica, walk good.