426: How to listen like a (real) leader - with Dr. Adam Hickman

Speaker A: Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. Uh, so there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment

Speaker B: of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms use. You're listening to the Simplifiers podcast, episode number 426. You know, we say we want leaders who listen, but if we're really being honest, a lot of what we call listening is really just waiting our turn to respond. Or scanning the engagement survey results and doing nothing. Or hosting an overly scripted town hall. Or asking employees for feedback once a year. Checking the box and the moving on. But real listening, that requires better questions, simpler questions, braver questions. Questions like, hey, what's not working? Where are you stuck? What are we pretending not to see? And maybe the most important one for senior leaders to ask themselves is how do we get these results in the first place? My special guest today is Dr. Adam Hickman, Vice President of Employee Development, Talent Management and HRIS with Partners, the Walt Disney Company. And he's simplifying how to listen like a real leader. Here's how he shares why he believes that we don't actually have a listening problem. We have a question problem. Plus, why leaders often avoid asking the most basic questions, even when those questions could reveal what's really broken at work and what to do after your engagement survey results come in so the feedback turns into action instead of another forgotten report. Plus, the art of asking great questions and why leaders should not always start with the end in mind. And finally, how to reframe engagement as a real performance driver while also letting go of the myth that people need to show up. As always, all star workers every single day. Because engagement is not a vibes only metric. It's a signal. A signal about trust, energy, clarity and leadership. And whether your people have what they need to do great work without burning themselves out in the process. But before we dive in, a little reminder. My new book, Squash the Sunday Scaries, A modern playbook to rebuild trust, transform culture, and reignite your workforce is action out now. It's written for HR leaders People, managers, and anyone who wants to make work better in a practical, human way. So if you're ready for simple tools to improve employee experience, rebuild trust, and create better results for your people and your business, you can grab your copy wherever books are sold or online@thesimplifiers.com book. Okay, it's time now to dive into Today's conversation with Dr. Adam Hickman as he simplifies how to listen like a real leader. Are you ready? Let's dive in.

Speaker C: You're listening to the Simplifiers Podcast, where we take topics in work and in life and simplify them. Mary will help you break it all down, figure it out, and spark you to do the thing. It's time to simplify. Here's your host, mentor, and undercover superhero, Mary Baird.

Speaker B: Hello, and welcome back to the Simplifiers podcast, where we take topics in work and in life and simplify them. And, friends, we've been talking a lot about employee experience lately, and, you know, if you've read my book, Squash the Sunday Scaries, we talk a lot about employee listening as well. But how do you actually do it? Like, how do you listen like a real leader in your workplace to understand what's up actually happening? Where is the friction in your workforce? And how could the employee experience actually be better to drive performance, to improve workplace culture and trust? Well, that's what we're talking about today. And my special guest, I'm so excited for you to meet him. His name is Adam Hickman. He's the vice President of employee development, talent management, and HRIs at, uh, partners serving the Walt Disney Company. He's a former leader of Gallup, and he specializes in leadership development, organizational effectiveness, and talent strategy. So I'd like to welcome to the Simplifiers Podcast, Adam Hickman. Hey, Adam. How's it going?

Speaker D: Hey, Mary. Thanks. Great. Um, already interesting things you've said so far on listening, so looking forward to the discussion.

Speaker B: Definitely. And you and I got connected on LinkedIn earlier this year, and you are actually saying some very interesting things on LinkedIn, I think when it comes to this, which I love, like, this is how we innovate. We ask the hard questions, we say the quiet thing out loud, we generate conversation, because, quite frankly, I just think that there's so many things in work that's broken right now, and this is one of them. So let's start there. You said to me offline, like, it's not that we have a listening problem, we have a question problem. What do you mean by that?

Speaker D: Yeah, um, think of your. Think of an interview you've been on, um, or you've been a part of. There's one question everybody asks which is tell me a little bit about yourself. But I'd be willing to bet, um, if I asked you what do you, what do you hope to get from that? The variety of answers is um, broad and it's, it's a good warm up question. But if you're going to sort for talent, meaning that answer is going to help you determine a fit for this role or what kind of talents they have, it's rare, I hear. Yes, that's what I was asking that for. So we're good at listening, but I think in workplaces, especially interviews, other places, you've got to know what you're listening for, not just that you're listening. And so tell me a little bit about yourself. You could go in a million different directions. What are you going to do with it once you have that? That's the harder part to it. And you move that into different categories of things. We ask a lot of survey questions. I think there's a survey for everything anym, but I always survey is the easy part. What are you gonna do with it once you've got it? That's the listening aspect on, um. Do you even know why you're asking the questions that you're asking? That's where we've gone a little astray.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I also wonder, like when you get asked that question in an interview, it immediately triggers bias because you as the recruiter versus the candidate are looking for points of connection, you know, and so it's this dance, isn't it, that almost sets us off on the completely wrong foot. Why do we do that as humans?

Speaker D: Tradition, I think. I don't know. Um, of the courses that I've been a part of, things that I've read, it makes you feel comfortable, makes them feel. That's why I say it's a good warmup question. But it's a throw, throwaway. Like don't respond to it, don't engage with this. That's interesting. You've got them at ease. So, yeah, continue on with that. So what, uh, I'm not saying is scrap the question. I'm saying use it for the intentions of getting them comfortable for being in an interview. Uh, but unless you know the, unless you've studied high talent in that position and know the answer to that, that you can replicate and listen for it, still you.

Speaker B: Yeah. So let's say that you are a, uh, people leader and you are really trying to build that trust within your team or your department. You know, one of the, the most important questions is asking, like, what's not working? Like, what's broken here at this organization? But I find a lot of times leaders are super nervous about asking a very serious, simple, but important question like that. Why is that, do you think?

Speaker D: Yeah, I, I recently just published one, an article this week about the topic of courage. And I, you know, it's, it's been a forever long word that's been out there, but I really see this as a gap, um, in workplaces anymore, especially in managers and leaders on, do you have the courage to hold the mirror up? Uh, and if you do, it's, you're not coming in as like, what's broken, because I'm going to go fix everything. It's, it's what's not working for you and for our team? Um, I think those that start with the assumption, like, everything, you know, sky's falling. Well, maybe, but you've contributed to it. So now you've got to lean into why so often, like a good common practice is I will spot check my team throughout the year and just say, what are you not getting from me that you need? Or what do you want me to do different? I, um, think it's wrong and irresponsible as a people leader of any sort, that you think that they're going to conform to you. That's not how this works. Uh, if you're going to individualize to them, you've got to pose that question, because otherwise I don't know how you know the answer to it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's an excellent question to ask, the one I use a lot of times with one on ones or standups, and usually it's like, you know, every other week or so. And I personally like to do walk and talks, like, get us out of the meeting room, like, let's go take a lap around the campus. And you know, it serves multiple purposes, but the one question I find is really helpful to ask is, what do you need more or less of from me as your manager? And that's it. Stop talking, be quiet and let them answer that. Right. What do you need more or less of? Uh, which is kind of a variation of what you had just proposed. And at first I think people go, what? Like, what do you mean? No one's ever asked me that question. But then over time, you know, you build a rhythm and a ritual in it and people go, actually, Mary, I need this. Or, hey, I could really Use your help with this or can you help me remove this roadblock? And really, that's the purpose of a good people leader, right, Is to remove roadblocks and help them accelerate their work to do their best work. Right. Tell me more here.

Speaker D: Uh, you get the gift of if they give you the answer, but let's say that they don't. I'm mainly setting up for what comes after that. So, you know, a weeks from now, something's happening. It's okay. Remember when I asked you that question, what do you need more of? Uh. Or what do you want me to do? In different. This would be one of those times that you lean into that. I. Similar activity I ran to this, um, last week, and I was in Australia. I had a group of, um, leaders. We were talking about the term stability and what it means with an organization. So I ran this activity where I said, get your phones out, because everybody typically has their phones out already. And I said, think of somebody that brings you stability. Got it? Yes.

Speaker C: All.

Speaker D: Uh, right. Text them right now and tell them that how they have brought you stability. And I said, the. The cool part to this is not going to be the response you're going to get because you're going to get, are you okay? Are you in a hospital? Something wrong? Right. Because you're not. They're not used to this. But then it's going to come the conversation after that, which is why you do that. And I won't be here for that part of it. You're going to be on your own. But I would love to hear how it went. And this morning I'm still getting messages about how that's been, you know, such a huge benefit to them in the conversation that they wish they would have said this years to them ago. And to me, that's the same principle as this is you. You're going to ask this question about what do you need more or less from me?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: It's almost less about the immediate response and the long, ongoing aspect of that of knowing that there is a welcoming version of you that says, tell me when you want me to adjust to you. You just got to say it. I don't. There's not a button or a T shirt with a gauge on it that says, I need to adjust to you today. It's the. Did you pose the. And then listen for an answer that you can do something with M. And

Speaker B: you know what I hear underneath all of that is with repetition and true intention behind it, you're building trust and respect. That's Two ways, not just from top down. Cause that's not how trust works. It has to be both ways. And then that's where real vulnerability can shine of like going, yeah, I'm having a really real, I'm underwater this week. I'm having a real tough week and I need your help. And you know, again, that could go both ways, right?

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. So you know, uh, companies go through engagement surveys and pulses and all sorts of things, right? And the engagement surveys come in, the results come in. How should leaders turn that feedback into real action? Tell me more of your best practices there.

Speaker D: Um, I've got some unique ones. So uh, to start, I'll say I don't care about the score. And that usually is like, what do you mean it does. You could get a 10% vacation, you could get a 90%. Right. And that does equal best places at work if that's your game for it. But to me, um, the score is the score like you earned it. So we're going to acknowledge it. But I'm less interested about that because uh, the best workplaces care less about the number and more of the exploration of what caused the number. Because that's where the action, the works that see. So you get your number. Great. Now all the things underneath that. Now let's go look at it at a heat map on where did we score high, where do we score low? And you've got two ways you come at it first, where you scored high. Let's not lose that, right? Let's study that and figure out what's working right? And maximize that. The areas that are the low points. That's where you need the uh, HRBPs, the od peoples of the world in HR to say, okay, tactically if we're going to go at this from a behavior standpoint, what we're not going to do is the inverse of the question. So a question I always used to get question on is there was a survey gal q12 called I have a best friend to work. Well, let's say you scored low on that. The idea is not to assign you a best friend. The idea is, uh, have we created enough organizational forums? Is there enough events, is there enough things happening where you could genuinely make friendships that become partnerships in the workplace? That's beneficial because there's data to support what happens when that does take place. That's what I mean on first standpoint is we're going to acknowledge the score and set it aside. I'm now going to look at and explore what caused that number and that's where we're going to spend our time at.

Speaker B: And I think that scores are good as a benchmark. Right? But it can't be the thing that's like, that's it. That's all that you're trying to achieve. I also, you know, what I hear under that is just understanding root cause. Right. Um, and when you are iterating, you know, OD or oe, like, uh, initiatives, um, and by the way, if you don't know what those are, organizational development, organizational effectiveness, initiatives to drive better community or belonging or, you know, those kinds of intrinsic human needs. Right. Give us some thoughts on where you start. Like, are you putting a strategy together based on the metrics or based on hypotheses? Like, where's the beginning point for people?

Speaker D: No pun intended. Um, we go to our listening post first. So if, if that's what brought the number in and that's our starting point just for us to understand. Well, what do we know to be true today? Uh, typically, engagement surveys don't bring back results that are shocking or surprising. Hopefully. Right? Like, you got it, you got a good sense going into it. So it's, it's almost like when you check engine light comes on, you kind of got an idea of like, yeah, I've been avoiding this for so long, so it's not usually a surprise. And so to me, if I see a, uh, lower score, I go right back to our teams that we have out there and the mechanisms we have in place to say, well, what do we already know today? Can we confirm a belief based on any of these pieces so far? Uh, and hopefully we can get a good, you know, good, good way down the road to know what we're starting with. Then starts, um, I would call our listening tour. So earlier this year we had our chief people officer, our chief revenue officer in our division that we did this with and myself. And we went around to all the locations that we surveyed and after hours or before hours, uh, we just had a conversation to say, did you have a chance to review results? Great, because we're fully transparent on those. Then, uh, what was your reaction to it? What do you think? You know, what was your mindset taking the survey? What do you think after all of the, the feelings around the survey and the, the afterwards, and then into the media, which is the action is what do you want to see take place because of really wrong assumption on these is that's low, so I have to go after it. Here's a really good example of this. When you see a Low score related to compensation. Come in. I often will say I have never launched a survey related to compensation. And it come back beaming on, um, you overpay us. Don't pay me anymore. This is the greatest thing in the world. There's always going to be a middle or discrepancy on that. Come to find out when that has happened. One, uh, area to amplify that would start to change. That is around recognition. So when those that don't get recognition on a daily basis, they go to the tangible thing. The tangible thing is your paycheck. So I don't feel valued or recognized because I'm not paid enough. Turn that to, recognition's gone up. Maybe there's spot bonuses, maybe there's a luncheon. Something that they feel valued to almost starts to minimize the comp aspect of it because they're getting that bucket filled in different areas versus if we just chase the inverse of the question and start paying people more. Yeah, you might goose the number for, for a little bit, but you didn't fix the true problem, which was the recognition piece to it.

Speaker B: It's so important. God, I'm so glad that you mentioned this because I feel like there are three key things that people need, um, in a thriving workplace. It is to feel like their work has purpose and it has meaning. There, there's a, something that's happening with the work that I'm doing. No matter if I'm a bottle washer, um, on the front lines in a retail store or up in a fancy corporate office building, I want to know that my work matters and has purpose. Two, it's that your boss or your leader is recognizing what you do and appreciating what you do. That's it. Just being able to be seen and heard and understood and appreciated. It goes a long way for people. And then three is a sense of belonging, community. Um, do I feel like I am part of something bigger than myself in this organization? And of course, obvious, like we just said, everybody expects their paycheck to come, you know, on a steady pay cycle as well. No one's, you know, volunteering here, but yeah, those are core intrinsic human needs. Uh, and I think he hit it on, on the head there.

Speaker D: Seen, heard and valued. Those are the three that I'll push my team on the most on. How are our employees seen, heard, valued. If we do that right in all pockets, uh, culture and belonging, such a big aspect of the work that we do. And often it's, you know, underneath the diversity inclusion piece. But diversity happens before the hire. Do we have the right diversity of candidates coming in? Inclusion happens after the hire. And I, you know, we do really well at, uh, the inclusion aspect of that. But it's also tied very closely to the seen hurt and value concept.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I also want to put a pin on it and love to hear your perspective on this as well. But I feel like employee listening, when done well, is a closed loop cycle. You said this, we did this, and here's what's next. Because I feel like so many companies where they really stick, stumble is they do this incredible survey and they gather all this information and then they stop. They don't do anything with it or they sit on it and then there's no communication after the fact of, you know, well, what did you do with this information? Right. Because then people go, well, I told you what's broken? And then you did nothing. So I'm not going to tell you again. Right. Speeding more into that.

Speaker D: Yeah. Um, so two thoughts come from that highway and then what are you going to do with it? Those are my two favorite ones. Um, what are you going to do? We'll start there. The worst thing you can do is ask for somebody's thought and opinion and do nothing with it. So before we launch any survey, I usually will say, uh, what are you going to do with it once you get it back? Because if it's just for fun, then just say that then that we're not going to do anything. We're going to put a signpost out that this is just for fun. Uh, if we have intentions on what we're going to do with it, then I'll convert back to the highway piece, which is on ramp, highway and off ramp. Each one of those needs a strategy. So prior to launch, that's getting on the highway. What are all the things that are happening that are going to take place? That's the communications, that's the readiness for, um, the organization, that's our managers getting ready for this. That's, I mean, any facet of what's going on the highway is the easy piece. It's launched a survey. Right. And we're not, I'm never looking for an achievement of launching a survey as the goal. It's, that's a part of it, but the off ramp is the hardest part. And it's also what you just, you know, described as one of the bigger, um, Mrs. And things, which is survey is closed. You get the results. Now what. And if you hadn't had thought and strategy around that before, it kind of becomes A tarot card reading on. We got our results and I think it's this and I think it's that, but I don't really know what to do with it versus, um, who's going to lead what, how is this going to work? And then what promises did you make back to the people that took the survey to say, and at what point do I get to hear things? So we have a really strong goal that I push our team on to say at the close of the survey, within 72 hours, you will get your results that, um, I know my team loves and adore that role, but, uh, that's me saying, uh, it's critical that we get this back to you. Uh, we're not going to talk you through the results at first. You're going to have your own reflection and action on. Then we're going to come back to you and we've got really a concierge service through, um, our CEO down as to what the results look like and team sessions that are going to take place. The manager leader has to drive that, but HR is in support of you and getting you ready for that conversation and ensuring your thinking aligns where, uh, the business needs are going to be met. And also people's thoughts and opinions are valued along the way.

Speaker B: You know what I hear in that is accountability. Right? Like we're moving 90 billion miles an hour, 72 hours, um, sounds quick in concept, but really that's three days. So I've given you all of my very best insights and I want to know pretty quickly if I'm, you know, a person in this workforce that you heard me and understood and what were the results? And I think also I'm curious what you give them at the 72 hour mark is, um, just the results or do you also give them. And here's what we're doing next as well.

Speaker D: Yes, for sure. The results, uh, and then we've got a truncated version of here's what to expect ahead. And so this is a calibration session with our HRVP teams or your OD team to help you think through how you're going to structure this and then really the coaching around your results. So you've got your numbers, you've got your, you know, areas where you're strong and where we've got some course correction. And now let's hear from m you on what do you want to work on first.

Speaker B: I like that. And because I like that is just simply helping me understand with total transparency what the timeline is, the expectations of what's next. Not necessarily. Hey, we're going to do X, Y and Z programs. You're not delivering that at the 72 hour mark, but you're saying, hey, here's the results and here's the next milestone we're going to hit that takes us down the path again. That's building trust, building respect. Um. Hey, you heard me. Okay, cool. Let's move forward as a cohesive team. So let's go back to the art of asking great questions. Because one of the things you told me offline was that leaders shouldn't always start with the end in mind. What do you mean by that?

Speaker D: I know it's controversial to everything that I love it. So. So this is my style and I could say this fits for everyone. But, um, the famous book on seven. Was it Seven Habits? Highly Effective people? I think it was. I think it's great. It's worked its course for a lot of people. I'm not discounting any of the credit or research that went into that. I don't subscribe to that. Um, I, I don't want to start with the end of mine. It. To me, it's limiting. You know, describe to me what success looks like in terms of your. But let me get there. The way that I'm going to think through it, the end is. And there's never really. Am I. There's never really an end. You know, there's a couple of questions I love to ask interviews. It's like, when do you know when the work's done? M high. Talented people will tell you it's never done. And if you're in hr, when's the end of your day? Well, uh, we don't really have an end of day because the phone keeps ringing and digging. So I don't know when that is. There's just certain pockets anymore. I don't think that applies to. Sure. You know, you could use it as a good soundboard on what it is. And then a couple other ones. Sharp. You always got to sharpen the saw or something. I'm, um, like, well, I don't have a saw, so I'm not going to sharpen that. Are you telling me to have a growth mindset? All right, now I'm interested. When you take an engagement survey, the end of it usually is, hey, we're going to increase our score, but it's not the score. And if you're using this as a sense of, uh, performance now you're in the right area because engagement yields performance. Don't believe me? Go, go do the, the research on this yourself. You'll see anything from Gallup will translate quickly to you want to increase in performance. You start with engagement. 12 simple questions that get you to that point. But let's say you don't want to use a survey. You don't even want to do that. You just want to have a, uh, an engaged workforce. I'd be willing to bet if you think of something that you spend money on a regular basis, uh, because it's a great experience. That's because culturally engagement matters to them. You know, think of two different, um, let's just pick fast food. I won't pick on names, but think of two fast food places. You roughly spend about the same, which isn't cheap anymore. Uh, but you know, um, you know the fast food places that you're going to get just the basics. You also know the ones that you're going to get the over the top experience with. That over the top experience isn't a secret. It's engagement. It's that their managers care, their leaders care. There's a sense of belong. All of that factors into that engagement number.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: So if you start with the, with the end in mind of it, why even start then? Why don't you start with the idea of what are we aiming at in terms of performance, in terms of business needs, in terms of what our customers want, what our employees want. Now that that gives me a Runway to say there's not really an end to this. This is a marathon that's never going to end. Uh, but we know along the way how it's what we can use to help this as well.

Speaker B: Mhm. And I have a firm belief that when you really invest into better employee experience, that drives the, that engagement. People plug in and want to deliver a world class customer experience because they're like, you know, I'm proud of working here and you uh, know, my boss really appreciates and advocates for me and I get the proper training and support that I need. And so you know what? Today I'm going to show up differently at work. I am going to give it more, give it my all. And better employee experience equals better customer experience, which, guess what, turns into better business results. And so I, I think companies miss that. They, they just focus on investing in customer experience, you know, at the expense or whatever it takes. Always on all that nonsense, the corporate jargon at the expense of employees and go, well if people burn out, fine, we'll just get more people, you know, uh, or we'll just run another layoff to, to skim the fat and start again. But it's a, it's a tragic flaw and it's not a sustainable model. You really have to focus on employee experience which drives that engagement. Which again, the key factor in my mind is employee listening.

Speaker D: Right? Yeah, yeah, so true, so true.

Speaker B: So how can leaders reframe engagement then as a performance driver, like, while also kind of creating more sustainable expectations? Because, you know, what you and I talked about is that you can't really just show up and be an all star employee every single day. Single day. You talk more about like the 8020 rule. Can you speak more into that?

Speaker D: Yeah. So I think 8020 applies to so many things, but, you know, sometimes I'll get the question, like, are you telling me I gotta be 100 engaged all of the time, every single day? Yes. But then there's reality. Um, I would say 80% of your career, of the work that you do, I'm sure that you love to do, there's 20%. That's going to be the grind. And that's, it doesn't mean that it's every day. But that's. I hate expense reports. I, I'm going to screw them up every single time. Uh, it's just, I don't know why I can't get it right. But that's a, that's the 20% thing. There's um, just the mundane things that you just got to get through that. Is that 20%. But if, if it's flipped where 80% you hate and 20 you love. Now there's a problem with that. Um, and I just think too often we don't lean into the 80% to figure out why do you, why do you love that part? Well, Mary, taking this example, what do you love to do that's not at work?

Speaker B: I do love connecting in my community, bringing dinner parties together, bringing people together.

Speaker D: So if you could do that every day and get paid for it, would you love it?

Speaker B: I think I would. But then at some point it would get a lot. Like I would need a downtime, I would imagine.

Speaker D: So there's the 80, 20, uh, 80% you would love that. Ah, 20% that, like, I would need a little bit of a breathing room. What this is now, you love to do it. But that's what I mean. That same principle should be applied to work. So when I ask people, what do you love to do in your job? I'll hear a great response to it and then I'll say, well, what's, what don't you love? And Then what's the balance sound like on that? Have we got you in the right position, in the right seat with the right set of talents to make sure you do love what you do? Um, to me, you know, I. Often people will ask me, how do you have time to fit all in? But you do. Well, because I. Short answers. I don't have hobbies. Uh, but I love what I do to the sense of it's not. It's not really work for me. If I had to put me on a scale, I'd say 90. 90, 90. 10 is probably a true number for where I'm at. 10%, for sure. Expense reports, if anyone's listening for my work. Uh, but I was fortunate enough to be put into a spot that I do love what I do in that sense of it. But all facets of it, outside of work, inside of work, it just comes together nicely on how that's worked. Not everybody has that same experience. But I would say the starting question, which is a great question and the listen for with your employees, is to ask them, what do they love to do? Uh, you would be shocked on how many times I've asked that. And somebody will say something so drastically different than their job demands for me to think, ah, uh, we got you in the wrong role. Not with the intent to, you know, eliminate the role or let them go, but it's. If you love doing that every single day, that's your draw or your yearn for talents. Um, um, why don't we just talk through what else is possible here on how to get you into that spot where you can love what you do every day.

Speaker B: And Adam, that. That what you just said is the actual key piece of it all, in my opinion, because I think it requires a mindset shift of few, uh, leaders that I've certainly run across over my career who just don't think in that way because they think we'll profit at any cost. Or you're not doing the thing. You're not. You're not hitting the targets, you're out. And it requires a person who really sees, uh, the innate value of the human insider organization. Because we spend so much money and time and resource to attract this talent into our organization. We hire them and then, you know, we give up on them or we just don't see that there's actual inherent value in asking them the right questions, the hard questions and doing the, the proper listening and going, hey, actually, you know what? You are an incredible talent that is in the absolute wrong seat in the bus and let's figure out how to move you to the right place because then that drives performance. And I think that that's the big aha. Um, and I hope that anyone that's listening here, you know, gets it as well. Of like, well, how do we get to have our senior leaders value inherently every single person on the team and not just think of them as a number on a spreadsheet that is very expensive.

Speaker D: Yeah. Well, if people are your greatest asset, which I often hear at the top, the next question I would ask would be proven, yes. And see, uh, what the answers come back from that. Because if you hear things about culture and engagement at surface level, prove it again. Uh, what do you do as a result of those things? So I, you know, another thing I'll hear is like, hey, we're a learning company. I'm like, what does that mean? Like, everybody's alert. I mean, you have to learn. There's not a, not an option. What do you mean by that? And then what I'm listening for is specific tactics, strategies throughout the year that you are growing people in their role or you're offering certain things, not, you know, uh, growth and development doesn't always mean we sign you up for a conference and send you somewhere. Maybe it's growth about the history of the company or in other positions of the company or other facets, or there's so many other things that can translate even within your walls before you leave there that, uh, if you are a learning company, then that's a quick response. But if you just get the surface level things, um, you can kind of gauge up where this starts to fall apart. There's a belief that we're learning. There's not a systemic way in which that you can prove it.

Speaker B: Yeah. So if you're curious about the work that Adam does in the world, he's also a keynote speaker, you can go over to his website@adamhickman.com and by the way, everything that we talked about in today's episode, you can find that over at the show notes over@the simplifiers.com. um, and you'll find all the resources down there as well. Adam, I'm so grateful to have you on the podcast today. We have a few rapid fire questions we'd like to ask everyone. Um, here they go. First and foremost, um, what's one book or blog you're reading these days that's either inside inspiring you or poking holes and challenging your belief system?

Speaker D: Yeah, Marcus, um, Buckingham's the author. Design Love in is the book and Marcus and I have had parallels in the world where we've been at. Both were at Gallup for quite a while. Um, Marcus is. Got this audacious goal of, uh, how do you operationalize the word love in the workplace? And no, no surprise. Our employee value proposition is do what you love and love what you do. So, I mean, um, it was just a m. It's weird how we were in different worlds and then that collided at that. So reading, uh, that there's really two positions and companies that he talks about, movers and makers, uh, I'll let you figure out which one, you know, are the ones of the managers and the employees of the world. I'm sure you can guess, but it's just a fascinating concept to say can you actually operationalize the word love in the workplace? And I think you can't because we've, you know, proven it in the segment about. If I asked you what do you love to do outside of work? There's a quick response. But when I ask you, what do you love to do at work? Now, I always be like, ah, uh, can we really say the word? Yes, you can say the word. It's okay, right? Because the goal is to figure out how do we get to get you into a role every single day that you can love what you do. So fascinating read and I love the concept to it.

Speaker B: Awesome. We'll link that book up in the show notes for you guys again, go over to the simplifiers dot com. So tell me, is there someone in your network, somebody that you know personally that you just feel is up to brilliant things? We could shine a spotlight on them and who knows, maybe one day we'll have them on the podcast. Who would that be?

Speaker D: Yeah, uh, a new friend. I think she's phenomenal. Um, I saw her speak, um, recently in Hunter valley in Australia. Dr. Sandra Peters, she's with the University of Sydney. Um, it's one of those individuals, and I'm sure you, anyone listening can connect to this, is that you meet someone, you're like, they get it. I don't even have to say anything else. Like, they just get it. By the way they've introduced themselves, the way they speak. The, um, whole keynote section they did on their, uh, skills horizons. The reports phenomenal, it looks brilliant. And even the fun part was they've got a website. It's called Steal this report because I knew people were going to download it. So they packages for you. It's a good to go take a peek at what that is. Uh, but I just Think uh, those individuals that are in certain pockets of and specifically in education, they're not going to get the um, sunlight they deserve sometimes. And I think um, Sanders just a force to be reckoned with for the wicked smart and just I was totally blown away by what it was. And the back and forth so far has been phenomenal on how we stay connected even on opposite sides of the world.

Speaker B: Brilliant. We'll link up Dr. Peters in the show notes as well for you guys. So I believe gratitude and simplicity go hand in hand. Tell me, what are you grateful for today?

Speaker D: Um, two things. Every long flight I have I end up my goal is to write a book. So this last one I will have one out later this year on how do you balance being a parent, a spouse, uh, and in a full time employee and not letting it slip because I think he can do it. We uh, interviewed 100 people with long term marriages and careers to figure out what did they do. Um, to give you a segment I would say grateful for, um, 18 now plus years married with three kids that have been a better teaching tool for me than any course book or things that I can do. Your kids teach you. I mean they're the hard reflections but also the hardest learnings on. They watch you grow up and they're teaching you just as you are them as well. So I would say grateful for um, both of those that now it's come full circle that hopefully I can help influence some others to say you don't have to have this. You know the things that I say like you either have a great family or great career now you can have both. You just need some things along the way to be nudges for when you're out of balance on those.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: 80, 20, you know, there you go.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And we're so grateful for you to be on the podcast and share because you know, anyone that's ever been into a Disney park knows there is an incredible customer experience there. And again that is driven I believe underneath by a credible employee experience. So it means a lot to be able to hear what's actually working in the field for you in your organization, as big as it is. So my final question for you is this and thank you again so much for your time today. Um, someone somewhere is listening to you and I right now and let's say they are about to release another employee engagement survey and they're going, oh God, I just don't know if this is a good idea or I just feel like it's so many questions and it's just a lot of faff. And is it going to do anything at all? They're just really feeling a bit, um, cynical and downtrodden by it all. What's one thing you could whisper into their ear just to encourage them?

Speaker D: In this moment, I really struggle with one thing. So there's a long sentence, so give me permission for that. Um, first, if, if it feels awkward and sounds awkward, it is. So don't, don't send it. Just, just wait and do two things. One, call me and let me talk you off the cliff on where it could go wrong. Or two, there's this really cool mental model about your experiences. Build your beliefs, get you your actions into results. So link, link those. That's where it's at. If you've got that gut feeling, something's off. My right away coaching would be go to your experiences. Why is this off? You know, something intrinsically that your mind's telling you. Don't do this because that's your belief coming out on. This is where that's at. You gotta explore that. And you can't do that alone. Your experience is where you are with that. Listen to it and lean into why you have that belief. Because it's solvable. There's no end with that one. You can fix it. You just gotta, you gotta lean into what that, what is. Why is your belief what it is, based on experiences. That would be the quick way.

Speaker B: Adam, thank you so much for your time today. Appreciate you.

Speaker D: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Speaker C: Thanks for listening to the Simplifiers podcast. Find the show notes for this episode and all others@the simplifierspodcast.com know someone in your life who needs to simplify? Be a hero and share our podcast with them and we will see you here next time. As always, keep it simple.

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