NHS E-Rostering: How Relationships Help Doctors Use Technology With Confidence

Speaker A: It doesn't matter if you're a consultant or you're basic shop, it doesn't matter who you are. You want to know when you're working, when you're going to get paid and when your next time off is. It doesn't matter who you are that they are. What ultimately you want to know.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the Connexion, where RL Data's Chief Customer Officer Liz Jones and Medical Director Darren Kilroy are joined by leaders and colleagues from within the healthcare industry. In the connection, we explore how people and technology in healthcare can come together to create great experiences and, um, support patient safety. We hope you enjoy listening.

Speaker C: Hi and welcome to the Connexion podcast with me, Darren Kiroy, live here at Connected Health and Care Summit 2025.

Speaker D: And me, Liz Jones, I'm also here live and it is 2025, we're all live.

Speaker C: So you're very welcome and I hope that makes sense for you.

Speaker D: We're really pleased to be joined by Faye, who is from the George Elliot. Are you an FT George Elliott Foundation Trust?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker D: Okay, checking. We got that. Right. And you are within the medical staffing team?

Speaker A: We are medical rostering.

Speaker D: Medical rostering.

Speaker A: E rostering team. Um, my background is medical staffing.

Speaker D: Interesting because. So medical staffing, we've obviously got Darren here. You will have worked with some of these folks in the past.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: Rare to find these days.

Speaker C: Rare, uh, to find a rare beast these days in the undergrowth. Absolutely. To flush them out like a pheasant.

Speaker A: Bit of a niche.

Speaker D: So we want to find out about that, in fact. So tell us about you. Obviously the podcast in part about learning about people and their roles and what they're doing. So let's start with you. What's your, what's your background? How do you find yourself here?

Speaker A: So I was in retail before I did 10 years in retail.

Speaker D: Oh, where not. Well, you don't necessarily shop.

Speaker A: What sort? Women's clothing.

Speaker D: Oh, I'm imagining where it could be.

Speaker C: Imagine where it could be.

Speaker A: Now I'm from a long line of NHS workers. My grandma was a community nurse, my mum is a, ah, sister, auntie, mental health, dental, cousins out doing cancer care. So yeah, I've never wanted to go down that route. I'm a little bit more techy, a little bit more that side of things. I always wanted to get into the nhs. Obviously it's important as a family and a role came up in the ROTA team in George Eliot. And I, uh, went for that job, was successful in that job. Because when I was at my previous retail experience, I did the Rotors there and on a different scale it was. I was in quite a flagship store in Birmingham.

Speaker D: I mean, literally, we're honing down on what this is.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. They're no longer around us.

Speaker C: Oh, it's getting too narrow now.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker C: You'll probably have shopped there and you'll have rostered the staff who serve Liz.

Speaker A: Probably at some point. So, yeah, coming into the nhs, it was very different when I first started. There was a lot of the characters were. I did think they were quite similar from some of the ones we used to work with in the shops, but I became quite aware that I needed to read contracts, get up to date on the terms conditions specifically for at the time of junior doctor, resident doctors, as we know now.

Speaker D: So did you join at the point where we were doing the contract change?

Speaker A: Yes, it was around that time. It was 2016. I joined, yeah.

Speaker D: Okay, yeah. Uh, so we were deep in negotiations in 2015 and then two years later

Speaker A: our voter team was changed to medical staffing team. So we had the introduction of the recruitment side of things and a bit more of the technical side of the medics, which I enjoyed. I like very black and white. I like to see the contract, I like to be able to refer back to things. And then unfortunately, two years later, that team was disbanded and ROTOR coordinators were introduced into all of the directorates. But it was the same time as the long term plan was being issued and electronic rostering for medics. So the opportunity came up in our rostering team, which was already established in the Trust with agenda for change. And I was interviewed for that role and was successful. I think it was quite useful because I already had that relationship with the medics, so they already knew me.

Speaker D: That's so important. Right. So we don't talk about this enough. People quite often when they're talking about the adoption of the E rostering or any of the medical solutions, they'll get quite quickly into the nuts and bolts of the technology. I've never met somebody who has succeeded at this, who hasn't started with the relationships and the ability to actually be a partner. So you'd got those relationships from the previous role and then when you're now gonna go and rostering tool to them. Um, what did you do? Did you just go out and say it's me again or tell us how that happened?

Speaker A: Yeah, it sort of. There was a bit of a transitional period anyway, because I think with the disbanding of the medical staffing team, it obviously identified quite a few gaps for the road coordinators and then there to be nothing. So I was still having a lot of that interaction with regards to contracts and hiring, et cetera. But then I was also using my contacts to get onto the roster and it's basically we were lucky. We were all Excel based at the time. M. So it wasn't that I was digging through pieces of paper which I've heard, you know, is the situation in quite a few trusts that have moved over. Uh, and I had access to all that information from when I was managing it in the medical staffing team. So yeah, it wasn't too difficult for me that transition for them the higher grades are a little bit more challenging. But what I was finding was the resident doctors were using it in other trusts and they were the ones and they, they wanted to grasp the technology, they wanted to have it in their hands sort of things. So it wasn't difficult cause it's what they would expect. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: And um, because I was a senior medic for many years, I was a E like your mum. So, uh, totally fantastic that she's still working.

Speaker A: Yes, partial of retirement there. So yeah, she's living out.

Speaker C: That's good. Well, that's a separate issue of course about retaining experienced staff, which is a big issue for all of us. And so I'm really heartened that she's doing that because that must have been. She's enjoying it still.

Speaker A: She loves it. I mean she wouldn't mind. She's only 60. She doesn't mind. She runs around, she does a 12 hour shift, she does a night, she does everything. And some people, she'll say how old she is this people, and they'll be like, oh my God, I believe it. She's seen so many changes over the years. We've just opened up a new recess unit in George Eliot that was opened up yesterday, day before. So that's massive for them. But I had a lot of relationships with a lot of the doctors with an ED as well, and I was very careful. I didn't want to cross that line.

Speaker C: It's difficult when you've got family there, isn't it?

Speaker A: It is. Especially when she's in quite a senior role. So nowadays she's so messy. Can you phone doctors? No. What? Don't, don't, don't get involved. Don't get involved.

Speaker D: Involved.

Speaker A: But now we've always also used rota for the resident doctors. I use that right back from when I started.

Speaker D: So you did the transition between the two contracts. And you had them on. Okay, yeah, uh, yeah.

Speaker A: Always use that with the exceptional reporting. We use the ROTOR system as well and I've always liked that system, how it looks, how it feels. And um, then I've seen the similarities with Optuma that it was easy for me to adapt to that new system.

Speaker C: I was just going to mention before around the senior doctors when you mentioned the engagement there because. And relating it to my own experience of all that those years, because senior medics have got a lot of technology that they use in clinical practice. But then it's all around the concept of does this workforce technology, is it seeking to do something to them? So it's around expect change management. Isn't it around what the implications are of them getting it? Like job planning is the case in point. You see nationally that job planning adoption of software can be really low with consultants because it's around the engagement of why they should do it, why they should be involved in it, which is a different proposition to the residents because it's a different mindset. So I don't know if you've got any reflections on your experiences in engage with more senior clinicians as opposed to the younger ones and how you handle that relationship.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, for me, at first it was a bit of a wool in the training shop I ran in and thought. And then there was a lot of sort of deflation I say on my side when it was not met as much with open arms as the resident doctors. And it took some time to go back and sort of reflect what battles to pick as the years have gone on. Because I've been in the E Rostra team now for four years, we have a lot more of the consultants on the system. We currently don't use the job plan system with yourselves, but that's something that I would like to go towards. So it's quite difficult to bring them over and to sell that side of things. But I'm having areas now that will send me their weekly plan and I'll put it on for the doctor so that the areas can see it. They all use it for their leave. All the consultants as well, they all use it for their leave. And I think Loop has helped massively with that because they've got it in the hand and plus they've got contacts in my team that can help them with that. So if they need that support. But reflection with the more senior doctors, I think it is just those conversations and sort of trying to see their angle of things. I mean, we can run at it with the resident doctors, putting their full shift patterns on, putting M, this, this and this. Consultants don't have that from one week to the next. They're doing flex, they're doing different things.

Speaker D: I was going to ask you this because I think sometimes it's really easy to be almost like a academic about how the software should be used, as opposed to presumably different groups of doctors. You've just got to kind of work out what's right for them. And for you as well, Faye. So, like, when you've done that, how have you done that? Because you've managed to do this a few times.

Speaker C: Well, yeah, I think it's just about. And for those who are listening to the podcast, we've just had a Q and A session with Sir Jeremy Hunt and he was talking about the CQC and people being expert inspectors in the fields of what they're inspecting. And I think it's that for any of the clinical specialties, it's about them, um, having the recognition that someone who's going to talk to them about their discipline and what's expected of their use of the software has got a modicum of understanding about what they do all day and has taken a bit of time just to understand what their specialty is, what they're trying to achieve, what the outcomes are. Uh, and in a simplistic way, you know, if you're talking to a group of orthopaedic surgeons, they are essentially for orthopaedic surgeons, you might be listening. They, they're mechanics, they're doing mechanical operations with bones and screws and nails and nuts and bolts. They really are. So they are wanting to produce. It's a craft specialty, you wanting to get the thing built, the joint replaced, and they want to do that quickly and to a high quality. So does the workforce technology that you're asking them to engage with, help them to do that? If you can show them that it does, you're on the winner. If you're with an A and E staff, it's not like that at all. It's all around process and speed and doing things quickly, but yet decisively having to make decisions, good or bad, you have to decide something. Um, in orthopedics, it's not like that. So for those people, does this technology enable them to do that with a little bit more comfort? Does it help them in that? So it's understanding what the rationale is of why they come to work all day. And on that basis, does this software that you're presenting them with help or hinder in their minds that being done effectively.

Speaker D: But Faye, that goes back to, you know that your background having done medical staffing and you said you love tech and then you said, and you realize you had to really get to know the contract that changes. I know that isn't the same as understanding the detail of the specialty, but it's the same principle of really getting to grips with something beyond the technology and understanding all the ramifications around it.

Speaker C: Uh, I was going to ask you face, I mean from your retail years in the unnamed store that there's a shop 10, what are the things that you bring from those years in your professional life to the job now? Is there anything that's been helpful to you?

Speaker A: I think it's just organization. You have to have that element of organization ultimately. I've said this many times over the last few weeks to consultants. It doesn't matter if you're a consultant or your basic shop work. Uh, it doesn't matter who you are. You want to know when you're working, when you're going to get paid and when your next time off is. So it doesn't matter who you are, that they are, what ultimately you want to know. And with the retail stuff, obviously there was a lot of a, uh, younger workforce that were just there to get the money to, you know, the Saturday, the Sunday jobs, et cetera, et cetera. So it's a completely different attitude to the careers that we're working with now and the professionals. So yeah, it was just the organization thing with me and trying to keep on top of things. I mean I am um, ultimate organization as it is. If you've spoken to my manager and you see my inbox, it's something that I'm quite proud of. But there have been times when it hasn't been like that. When I was in the midst of medical staffing and you'd come in and after a week off and there'd be 500 odd emails about annual leave requests and swaps and all of that sort of things. As now with this system that we're using with Optima, the annual leave requests on there, uh, you know, they're perfect for the departments to just click in answer, be able to see. I'm currently working on the testing side of the swaps. That was one of the things I've got. They were the urology doctors at the moment they're trying to be sold Optima to use to utilize and their big thing is their encore swap.

Speaker D: So this is, you've got the technology, you're now trying to convince them that it's actually going to help them and not hinder them. And you have to do that. You're the one doing that. That's so interesting.

Speaker A: How do you go about it?

Speaker D: Do you sit down and talk to them or do you take them somewhere? What do you do?

Speaker A: I have a lot of teams calls. Teams is like the best thing invented. It's probably the best thing to come out of the pandemic. It is brilliant. But I'm always having messages from the different doctors etc, so meeting with them, um, and then likewise with patents because I, I do all the work schedules for the residents, so I'm a bit of a jack of trades and they'll send me patterns that I'll run through rota and it's just having that open communication with them. That's what I've always had with the medics.

Speaker C: And what's the sort of next step for the tech for you, Vayne in your role now, what you're looking to get next? Obviously you're doing the work with the specialties that you've just described, but what's the next sort of innovation that you're looking to bring in or that you wanted to do more of in your trust?

Speaker A: We are on a big focus on loop. We were one of the first trusts the sundown of eol. We went all in. Our, uh, comms team have access on there, they post their weekly newsletter on there. Uh, we've got the HR operations team that send us information, et cetera. For me, as I said, the swaps and also I'm really excited for the exceptional reporting link that's going to be coming through. Obviously February we've got big changes with the exceptional reporting for the resident doctors. So for me, I'm looking forward to that support from that system.

Speaker D: Are you anticipating that you're going to see an uptick in terms of the number of overall exception reports? Because they've got the accessibility through.

Speaker A: We're seeing it now, I think the latest cohort, I would say from August, we have seen an increase and obviously

Speaker D: that's in part driven by the conversations that's happening through the bma. But what does that mean for your guardians and how are you interfacing with them or Guardian?

Speaker A: Our, uh, Guardian is an A and E consultant.

Speaker C: Oh, perfect.

Speaker D: Everybody on this podcast is saying, are there actually any other specialties?

Speaker C: They'll have a lived experience of exception reports.

Speaker A: He is an A and E consultant and he's very knowledgeable and he's very supportive so I'm not too concerned. As I said, we have seen the increase and I do think it is off the back of possibly the new wave that we have coming through that, uh, it is a positive, there's open communication there. But from the prospect of the odd hour they're staying two hours, that's where we're going to sort of see the challenges, I think, as a trust and how we manage that and how we monitor that.

Speaker D: It's almost like a new version of instant reporting, but with, uh, obviously a pay and contractual kind of element to it.

Speaker C: It absolutely is that the methodology exactly on one level is the same, isn't it? So you're wanting to respond to the incident, which is the exception, and then to do something, to intervene, to make an improvement. Because the ultimate aim, of course is there isn't any exception report because you've dealt with the issue that led to it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I always want to ask this question of people in roles like yours face. So a big passion of mine is making careers like yours interesting for people at school and colleges, for coming through for younger people than us. So what do we need to do to make your profession an interesting one? Someone wants to do it from school age and says, I want to do that. I'm inspired by her because the professionalization and the development of these roles is always something I think we need to do more on. Um, I don't know what your reflections are on how you'd appeal to college people wanting to do a job like yours.

Speaker A: I think it's homing in on the technology that we've got. As I've mentioned before, I think the loop up is a massive thing and I think even just down to basic things like the colors on the roster and just making it more appealable to them, as I've said before, I think medical staffing and medically restaurant is a niche role and it is something I sit in a team of five of us. The other four are all agenda for change. So they don't sort of know or, uh, want to come over to the dark side, as it's called. But yeah, I think it is homing in on those apps and really, really looking at that technology because that's what they do now they've got all their social media. I think it's homing in and trying to make that link so it becomes appealable to them.

Speaker D: So you come from an NHS family and I think loads of us can relate to that and there is such a thing. And I don't know why we don't talk about it more in like the country. And we're about to have a, another big change with the ten year plan. Where's your sentiment in terms of, are you hopeful about what's happening in terms of, you know, as an employee in what is the seventh biggest employment group in the world, are you positive and hopeful about the health service?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a brilliant service. As I say, it supported me and my family. I'm still lucky enough. I've got three out of four of my grandparents, so they're all in the coming to the 90s.

Speaker D: That bodes well for your genes, doesn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Both grandmothers still are, uh, you know, but there's a lot of support that we're having with the NHS now and I think going forward it will only get stronger. I've got a lot of involvement in the Trust with the 10 year plan with the. Because it's, there's a lot focused on the resident doctor side of things. So I'm looking forward to hopefully helping make a benefit towards the positivity of that as well.

Speaker D: Yeah, you will make one.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, you will.

Speaker D: Because just listening to you, you clearly care about the experience of the doctors, you understand the context. So more people phase, that's what we need, isn't it?

Speaker A: I think it's important to know that the doctors are people and I think how I talk now is how I talk and there's no difference. And I think so many people sort of shy away and they welcome.

Speaker C: That is so true. Absolutely right. And I know we're out of time, we're being nodded at to dress up. We need more people like Faye and also me and Liz will be around, but based on your genes, we'll have this conversation in 20, 35, 45 and 55 with different hosts as we'll be six foot under but you'll still be going strong here, so.

Speaker D: Well, by then we may find that we can be avatars or something.

Speaker C: They'll be like, there'll be two robots talk, talking to here, but a little bit grave, but they'll all be using Loop.

Speaker D: Brilliant. Thank you so much and thank you for everything you're doing with the technology and with the doctors.

Speaker A: Thank you very much.

Speaker C: Bye, everyone.

Speaker A: M,

Speaker B: thank you for joining us on today's episode of the Connection. We hope this episode has provided you with valuable insights on the role that both technology and people play within, um, the healthcare line landscape. For more information and resources, visit rldatix.com don't forget to subscribe to the connection on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or any other podcast platform um you use. Join us next time as we continue to explore how healthcare is impacted by connecting people and, um, technology. On behalf of the RL Datix team, thanks for listening.