Prioritize Customer Dignity, Listen to First-hand Accounts, and Turn One-time Customers into Loyal Regulars

Speaker A: Hi, everyone. Today's compilation features excerpts from two interviews. First from Christopher McShane, who is the SVP of customer experience at Certa Simmons Bedding, and then from John Picolt, who is founder of Watermark Consulting. Both my guests speak on the importance of establishing an internal system to improve employee and customer experience. These are two great conversations which dig deeply into the processes and and cultural considerations needed to truly change your organization's approach to driving experiences worth having and that earn customer driven growth. Enjoy. Thanks, everybody. This episode is sponsored by Help Scout, whose customer support software is a leader in G2's winter 2022 report for easiest to set up, easiest to use, and best roi. If you're considering a switch to Help Scout, go to helpscout.com switch. They'll even buy you out of your existing contract. Hi, everybody and welcome to the chief Customer Officer Human Duct Tape show where we talk to leaders about how they unite their companies to achieve customer driven growth as the duct tape of their organization. I'm your host, Jean Bliss, so be sure to catch us on itunes, stitcher, and@customerbliss.com podcast. Hi, everybody, this is Jean Bliss and we are live with the Chief Customer Officer Human Duct Tape Show. Today my guest is Christopher McShane. He is the senior vice president of. Of customer experience at Certa Simmons. Christopher, Hello.

Speaker B: Hi. Good morning. Good afternoon. How are you?

Speaker A: Good. See, there you go. You're picking up my shtick. Hey, I'm good. You are, um, at Certa Simmons and give people a context of what that is. If there's people calling in from outside North America.

Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. So Certus Simmons bedding is a, um, we have a house of brands and we provide mattresses and accessories and provide really great sleep solutions for any type of sleeper.

Speaker A: Great. Well, I love that sleep solutions. We'll dig into that a little bit more. But before we do, let's talk about your life and your journey to the role. We call this part of the show the breadcrumbs because, um, everybody gets to the CX work or this leadership work in a different way. So take us as far back as you'd like to take us.

Speaker B: Sounds good. I'll start with how I joined my career, and that was in the military. So I was an Air Force officer after school and I was in there for four years. Really excited about my time. And being part of the military is really about leadership and service. And with the Air Force specifically, service is one of our, uh, second core values. So service before self. And when you think about Customer experience, being able to serve and give to others is one of the core principles that really differentiates a CX leader from others.

Speaker A: Right, it does. And what did you do? And first of all, we thank you for your service.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: What did you, what did you do?

Speaker B: I was a program manager. So I, uh, managed programs for land based nuclear weapons and uh, yeah, really fun and exciting, uh, work that they give young individuals to do.

Speaker A: Great. And then, and then you, you moved forward, um, in other roles. Walk us through the rest of those.

Speaker B: Sure, sure. So I stayed in aerospace and defense after I left the military and I was a program manager working in a manufacturing environment. I really wanted to get into business and own a P and L. And so um, I did that for a number of years. Thought that that was an important next step in my career. Really enjoyed my time doing that. And again I was able to serve um, in a different way, um, being in aerospace and defense and the commercial side of the equation.

Speaker A: Well, and I think owning a P and L and I really admire that you jumped into that quickly because what we find is the best people leading this work, they've gotten their fingernails dirty. Right. They've gotten into the operations and um, and the understanding of the complexity of the work is really critical. And then you move forward.

Speaker B: I did, I did. I really wanted to get into sales and join a startup. And I was very fortunate to find a position uh, in sales for a startup LED lighting company. And uh, you know, fun fact, we started the um, we had the first ever LED energy star light bulb in the marketplace at the time. And with uh, you know, with startups I think two things are true. You know, you have to be customer focused and innovation focused. So I was really, really fortunate to get that experience under my belt as well.

Speaker A: Great. And then finally you moved into serta, right? That was your correct.

Speaker B: Yeah. I was getting my um, MBA at Emory University at the time and um, was asked to join there, uh, from an individual, um, former mentor and um, within Certa Simmons. I've been here about eight years this summer and I've been fortunate to take a number of different roles across operations, supply chain transformation, customer service, and then ultimately owning customer experience.

Speaker A: So what was the progression? What did you have to get good at to keep moving along, um, inside the organization? And I ask you this because a lot of people want to ascend to these roles, but your career is a great example of ascend by doing the work well. So if you can give us a little more um, specificity on what you did. Well to earn the next advancement. That would be great.

Speaker B: Sure. You know, it started in the Air Force with the principle that like I think it's important to grow and develop and self improvement is uh, really important to me. And so I would always take on the jobs or the roles that were um, the toughest or the ones that nobody wanted. Right. Because those are the ones that you learn the most from. And the worst thing that'll happen is you fail. Okay, well you'll, you'll learn from that as well. Right. And the best thing that'll happen is that you can, you can brand yourself as somebody that knows how to execute and operate with discipline. And so I've been very fortunate across um, all the different roles, uh, across the different companies in the different industries that I've been a part of to uh, to take on the problems that sometimes others uh, would shy away from. Right. And I just, I knew that at some point in time uh, there'd be an opportunity to learn as part of that process.

Speaker A: So you came in as a senior director of supply chain and customer experience. And what did that mean?

Speaker B: So I actually um, I came in as a director of operations and then um, worked on some customer facing retail accounts which were non traditional to the way we serviced our B2B channel. And so I was able to take my background and um, bring in uh, teams to service from a different kind of supply chain model than our company was used to at the time.

Speaker A: Got it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Work with some uh, bigger retailers. And then uh, from there is when I um, worked on customer facing supply chain role.

Speaker A: Okay, and then you moved into a ah, VP role. What, what, what happened that bumped you from the director operations to the VP role? This is important because people always want to know how do I, how do I make these jumps?

Speaker C: Sure.

Speaker B: So while I was uh, working in customer facing supply chain, um, I had the opportunity, another opportunity to take on a transformation role. Something that um, was again you know, kind of extension of the career and trying to solve bigger problems for the company.

Speaker A: Okay, so now you're getting comprehensive.

Speaker B: Correct?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Across the board.

Speaker A: Got it. Okay.

Speaker B: Yep. Across the board. And then so in uh, my work in transformation, um, uh, the team did a fantastic job. We entered in some new uh, channels, new customers, um, drove growth, both um, uh, profit and revenue, which was fantastic. And then I was offered the opportunity to um, overhaul our customer service side of the equation.

Speaker A: Okay. And so that leads us to the role you're in today. And where do you report in the organization?

Speaker B: I report into our interim chief operating Officer.

Speaker A: And what does that mean for others? Trying to understand.

Speaker B: Sure. So, um, within uh, the, there's uh, the commercial side of our equation, which has our sales, our marketing and our innovation structure. And then um, our operations side, which has customer experience, quality operations and supply chain.

Speaker A: Got it. Okay, so the, the engine of the organization is on this. Okay, so let's dig into our questions, um, that we will typically want to dig into. So you first got this role and you had been inside the organization, so you knew a lot of what was going on. But how did you assess the work to be done to define your role, to understand how to stairstep it, to plan what you were going to do?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a great question, Jean. So I like to operate in 90 day sprints. And I think whether or not you are taking on a new role in your current company or a new role in a new company, you should put together a 90 day plan and look at that role as completely different and put together that 30, 60, 90 day plan in conjunction with your boss and potentially other key stakeholders that will um, directly impact that work. And so that was one of the first things uh, that I did is put together that 90 day plan. And then um, we, we did a current state assessment of where we were as an organization from a people, process and technology standpoint.

Speaker A: Uh, what was the methodology? I'm going to jump in. What was the methodology you used to do the assessment? Everybody does it differently.

Speaker B: So it was people, process and technology oriented.

Speaker A: Right? What, what were the specifics? What, what, what did you do to assess people, process, technology? Did you talk to customers? Did you run the, you know, what, what did you do specifically?

Speaker B: We did, yeah, we did some listening and feedback, um, with our customers. Uh, we did the same thing with our employees. To understand where the gaps were from a process perspective, we identified like the silly rules and pain points from a policy perspective that the organization had in place. And so then we went to go to, to identify, you know, and fix those. And from a technology standpoint, it's really doing an assessment of your current state technology. Are you, are you fully utilizing that which you've paid for? What are you exactly paying for? Um, are you maximizing the users? Are you getting enough out of these disparate systems? Are they even talking to each other? So we did like a really good in depth analysis. They're working with some fantastic IT business partners.

Speaker A: Great. Okay, so 90 day plan, what did you put a stake in the ground that you were going to accomplish in the first 90 days one is just

Speaker B: developing the CX strategy and getting to know my team, uh, my brand new team in a different way because, um, I had different team members that were reporting into different organizational structures. So we put anybody that was customer, uh, facing from a non sales standpoint. So customer service, our warranty teams, our direct consumer teams, our B2B customer service, all within one organization. And, and previous to that, they were reporting into different team members.

Speaker A: Okay, so you had the job of uniting a lot of different operations under this banner of customer experience. We call this the duct tape show for a reason. What did you do to get everybody on the same page? I mean, that's such an important part of moving forward.

Speaker B: Yeah, relationships are really the key and making sure that you build trust. That, that's really foundational. Right. In, in terms of having a great, building, uh, a great team and having a great employee experience. It all starts with, with trust and relationship building.

Speaker A: So what did you do specifically? I'm going to push you for actions. Was there, did you have a group session? Do you know? What did you do from a tactic standpoint that folks out there could try themselves?

Speaker B: Sure, yeah, absolutely. We did, um, pulse surveys. I went and I, um, sat down with most of the team members on my team. I had town halls. I made sure that I had listening and feedback sessions. Um, and then we put into action what the different team members in the front line, uh, team members brought up to me. Right. So it's one thing to listen, which is important. And you can't listen with your ears painted on. Right. As you know, Jean.

Speaker A: That's right. And.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And the new one, you can't listen with your ears painted on. I kind of dig that.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. My, my old man taught me that one. And uh, and then when you think about feedback, feedback is great, but if you don't show what you've done with that feedback, it falls on deaf ears.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So we always made sure that whatever feedback that we got from our front lines, we said, here are the small wins here, the app, uh, here's what we heard you say and here's what we've done about it. Right. We've closed that feedback loop because it's so important to earn the trust from the front lines who are dealing and working through the issues on a daily basis with our customers.

Speaker A: Okay. So this first 90 days, building the plan, understand your team and gluing them together, you've been in the role for a year and a month now, which is a series of 90 days. Um, what were the next couple sprints, 90 day sprints after that. What did you try to accomplish? And before you answer that, how did you build your CX plan? What did that mean? Sure.

Speaker B: So how do we build the plan? Well, when it, when it comes to CX strategy, the role was created um, right around about a year, year and a few months ago. Right.

Speaker A: And, and what caused the role to be created? Did something happen in the business?

Speaker B: Our, um, we had a chief operating officer at the time who is now our CEO. Um, and, and she, and she created the role. Yeah, she's absolutely customer first and everything. Um, that she does and talks about the customer in every meeting that we have. Right. Which is extremely important when you want to. Yep.

Speaker A: Okay. So she created the role, you progressed into the role. Now you're into these sprints. And the first 90 day sprint is also about building the strategy. So what did that mean for people? You know, a lot of people use this term strategy. What did you want to lay out?

Speaker B: So when you, when you think about the strategy development, um, takes a village sometimes. Right. And it's not something that happens overnight. And I think there's like some uh, you know, like, I think people think about it as like some magical or mystical event and really it's not. Um, but what you have to do is make sure to get buy in and understanding from different stakeholders. You have to make sure that it fits the overall company priorities and objectives. Right. If and, and are you able to accomplish it? So strategy is one thing and execution is another. And so, you know, we didn't hire an outside consulting firm and ask them to pay, you know, millions of dollars to sell. Tell us something that we already knew. Right. We, we got with the key leaders of the organization and we said, you know, where do we, where, where are we now? Where do we want to be and what do we have to do to get there?

Speaker A: So tell us more. I mean I get the words, but inside the business of helping people sleep, um, what did you uncover that you had to do better? What were some of the things that were in that strategy that you wanted to accomplish?

Speaker B: Sure. So we had to get a feedback and a listing system that was always on. That's really important. We had to improve on our communication, we had to improve, uh, on our ability to promise and deliver to our consumer, whether that's our B2B dealers or our end consumers. And so there's different process and technologies we have to put in place and that we are putting in place to make that happen.

Speaker A: And besides the process, what about the experience did you find? I mean, were there specifics about getting people beds or your B2B? What were the specific things that cropped up initially that really needed attention?

Speaker B: So we did, um, two major things. One is customer journey mapping at a high level to identify the moments that matter. And the second is put in place, um, a voice of the customer listening program. And to our earlier conversation, we didn't listen with our ears painted on. We heard what our major customers were asking us to do, and then we put action plans in place to make that happen.

Speaker A: Okay. Okay, so let's move forward. Let's talk about, uh, the rest of the leadership team that you're a part of. Um, how did you engage them? Because a lot of times when you get this role, as you know, Christopher, it's about reporting, and then they're like, oh, great, go do it and report back.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Not how you drive culture change and leadership change and leadership engagement that everybody owns this. Can you give us some specific things that you did to bring that leadership team, you know, gluing the C suite together? What, what are some things that you did initially and what are some things that you continue to do?

Speaker B: Sure. So I, I think that like, um, like we discussed before, you know, everything is a work in progress. And it starts with the CEO, though. And so our CEO is absolutely customer first. And in, um, everything that she does, says and thinks and brings up the customer at every meeting, as I, as I, as I talked about. Right. So it is a priority. And if it's a priority for the CEO, ultimately, um, you've got, you get better buy in from the executive leadership team or other C suite members. Uh, but you still have to find out where the value is and what's in it for them. Right. One of the ways we're able to do this through, again, through customer journey mapping, where are we causing pain or what are we doing really well within each one of these functional silos. And so when you think about removing yourself from functional silo and looking at the end to end, then you can explain through stories how, um, that team or that person's, um, team is impacting that customer journey, either in a positive or a negative way.

Speaker A: So walk us through. You've got a B2B and a B2C. Walk us through the B2C journey initially. Like, what did you build out as the important goalposts of the customer journey?

Speaker B: So the maturity level on our B, uh, 2C side of the equation was, is much, um, higher than our B2B. So our team um, roughly has had a net promoter score in the mid-70s for a few, you know, number of, number of years now. Right. And so um, high maturity level there from end to end customer journey mapping from on site, on phone from an omnichannel perspective. And so we all.

Speaker A: But what's this? What are, what is what, how do you map it out? So I'm curious as a bed customer, um, how did you identify the things that you need to do? For me, what, what were the different stages or goals of the journey that you guys identified?

Speaker B: So we had um, we had a number of them in place before. It's really about focusing on the feedback along those journeys where the customer said m the main points and we think about it from like a Pareto principle. Right. Um, we identified where 80% of the issues were occurring. Right. 20% of the time.

Speaker A: Right. What were the journey? I'm trying to get you to name the stages of the journey. What are the stages of a customer journey in a bed buying experience. Experience.

Speaker B: Oh so sure. So it's the pre purchase interactions that we have. Right. Um, you're, you're as a customer you're going to go on site and you're going to do your own research. Right. The majority of our customers will, will do their own research on site. They'll look at um, they'll look and see if we have the relevant information. If not they'll call our team and we get a number of different inbound calls, um, pre purchase phone calls that where we have a great knowledge base that's built out that we're able to answer them.

Speaker A: Okay. Smarter. Teach me about exactly. And sleeping and all of that important stuff. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker B: And if I'm a, you know, are you a side sleeper? Do you sleep in your back? Could you sleep with a partner? I mean all of those relevant questions which we have in place to really identify and get. We make sure that we have the right bed for the right individual at the right time.

Speaker A: Okay. And then do people buy the beds directly or through the retail channel?

Speaker B: Uh, both, both that we can um, yeah, directly through our websites. Um, from a direct to consumer standpoint or through dealers. Um, if you're in the U.S. uh, you know like a mattress firm or a Macy's, you know, so these larger retailers who are our uh, regional and independent channel or a hospitality channel. We've got a number of different ways.

Speaker A: So as you identified these different stages of the journey and started digging into them, did you. I'm um, connecting back to the C suite. Did you have them, um, go out and have to do those things or how did you bring the reality of the customer experience to the C Suite?

Speaker B: Through, um, so I think one of the main ways is through storytelling and getting ourselves out of the data and the numbers and the KPIs, those are really, really important. But being able to tell the story is more important. And so it takes a team of people to be able to do that. You have to get the data, you have to have the system in place, you have to get the data, you have to understand the insights and do a really good deep dive there. And then you have to explain the. So what, uh, and be able to tell the story in a way that really impacts change for those individuals. And for each one of those C suite members, the what's in it for them will be different and it will always be different. So you have to really understand that person, their team, that function, and figure out where you can move the needle.

Speaker A: Okay, so this is important. I always have said you have to be a chameleon and you just mentioned it. Can you walk us through some of the different operating areas and how you did the storytelling differently for them?

Speaker B: Sure. So with operations, um, we walk through, um, areas where we're causing pain, uh, and being able to execute. And when you think about continuous improvement in a manufacturing environment, we focus on lean, um, every day and lean or in Kaizen. Right. Continuous improvement. And so being able to convince someone with data and tell the story about being able to improve is a little bit, is a little bit easier. Right. Because you know, you want to challenge everyone to improve. Right. We're constantly focused on what's the problem we're trying to solve, what's the path to be able to get us there and how are we going to do it as an organization. Right. How can we get better every day.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So that having that continuous improvement mentality, was that one of the drivers on the operation, operational side of the equation

Speaker A: in terms, it was this manufacturing.

Speaker B: Correct. Manufacturing. Manufacturing team. Yep.

Speaker A: Okay, so you were using customer feedback as a continuous pipeline of data and information. So that was real time information.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: You know, a lot of people in the old days and uh, it sounds like you're not doing this. You would wait for the survey results to come out and then you're nine months past when things are happening in real time. Okay, so how did you show the storytelling of that then beyond the data, how did you bring the life of the customer to life, the customer experience to life?

Speaker B: So we did it, uh, by getting direct Quotes from um, customers and from our dealers. Uh, we did it by bringing in some dealers into um, different uh, events like Kaizen events, which are continuous improvement

Speaker A: events, which is at the table of redesigning and.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. It's one thing. It's like in sales it's one thing if you say that's another if you know, if somebody else does well and

Speaker A: then they have a bigger voice out in the marketplace, they're going to tell their peers. Right?

Speaker B: Absolutely. And that's really where um, you can ground the team. And it takes a cross functional team to solve any problem. Right. But as long as you bring in the voice of the customer or that team knows that the customer has a seat at the table and you can explain how that's how you can drive um, that speed to action.

Speaker A: Okay, so let's pick another area that's operations manufacturing. That made sense. I like the idea that you then gave them a seat at the table because just reporting back to the field especially isn't good enough anymore. Right. In fact one of the things we learned is that more than pay people value being part of the process, being part of the solution. So let's pick another part of the organization that you had to use story that you use storytelling for and how did you use it?

Speaker B: So we used um, we identified some pain points, uh, and some gaps from a self service standpoint with respect to um, the, the sales side of the equation. And we identified some technologies we can put in place to allow our customers to self service. And um, it takes a partnership to get those individuals signed on to be trained to be interested in it. So it was a collaboration once they realized the impact that it could have, um, so that they were not contacted for, you know, the basics, right. Where's my order, where's my stuff? I bought certain things, I'd like to know where they are. And so um, as a team we said if we could deploy this technology and allow the self service to happen, it will reduce you know, the number of contacts that you're going to be getting so you could focus on selling. What more can you say to a salesperson to allow them to sell than you know, remove roadblocks from them.

Speaker A: Did you, did you have to rethink compensation of sales for example also as you were redoing that?

Speaker B: Not as part of this process. No. They were completely um, on board with being able to you know, remove again when you think about it from a lean perspective, which we mentioned before, is removing waste out of the equation. We're just going to Remove that non value added, uh, where's my order? Where's my, where's my stuff? And so they could just focus on the selling processes.

Speaker A: So they were part of identifying the things that were broken. Right. Or impaired their ability to sell. And then you got those roadblocks. And then again, the important thing is then you market back, I call it marketing hope back to the people who were going to be impacted by it. Do you have another one you'd like to share?

Speaker B: No, I think those two are probably the best. Those ones fundamentally move the needle on the sales and the operations team.

Speaker A: Okay, so I'm going to go back to your 90 day sprints because I think that's important. Part of the thing that happens, Christopher, as you know, is that this work feels overwhelming. And also, especially when you report to someone in the organization, they're like, what did you do for me lately? Right. In your leading this work? So first 90 days you had to prove that you could bring a disparate group of people together to be a cohesive unit. Um, you built the beginning of the CX path around understanding journeys and you started to fix some things. It sounds like what were the next couple 90 day sprints about?

Speaker B: So those two were focused on building out voice, uh, of the customer listening program, which are really important. Right across our, um, B2B and B2C

Speaker A: channels active, separate from B2C. That. Right?

Speaker B: Correct. Okay, correct. Yep. And, and so, you know, making sure that we built out a really good listening program, um, is important. And so we focused on that and then integrated integration of the teams. Right. So when you think about individuals that reporting into different functions that were part of different companies, um, when you think about merging them together, that means they, they brought along their own processes and their own technology.

Speaker A: Well, in their own categorization. Right. So one of the things, you can't roll anything up because every part of the organization has their own version of how they define problems or whatever.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's, and that's, you know, the mosaic chart, um, that I call it internally of the different tools and the different systems. It's really important to identify those tools, those systems, the processes around that and understand, you know, that employee experience. It's so important. Right. So when you're asking and challenging and going through that transformation, you really have to be grounded as leader to understand what you're asking of the team. And so you've got to do the work. Right. To understand where your current state is and how you, um, can, you know, consolidate or get the Most out of different systems.

Speaker A: So this is important because I don't think people realize the angst that's included in this because you've got people who have even put their, you know, the credibility of their career on the line of suggesting that you buy this tool or that tool or this process or whatever. And now you're coming in saying, okay, we need to make some changes. How did you go through the evaluation of that? You know, because you don't want to call anybody's baby ugly. But on the other hand, if everybody's using a separate system, it's going to get in the way of this approach that you're trying to go for.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So, you know, I brought it up, um, earlier, but you've got to build trust and build relationships, right? I think you have to make friends before you need them. And it's, I think it's really important that you, you start there. And if you're able to start there, then you, you can have the tougher conversations. Right. Um, because you're able to identify and walk through, um, how the person, you know, how the person thought through the problem they were trying to solve at the time. But being able to take a step back and say, okay, well, the problem's completely different now. Now we have a completely, um, broader team, a different mission. And, you know, the tools, processes and systems that were initially set up probably needs to be enhanced. Now, that's not an overnight. Yes, it's not an overnight conversation. It takes a few iterations. Right. But eventually people come around. If you're able to walk through how it'll make them, um, achieve their goals and, um, be heroes with their own bosses too.

Speaker A: Well, and, you know, and I think that's important because it's also not saying you did wrong. It's. Things have changed. Right. Honoring people's integrity and their, their. I always say you have to kind of check your ego at the door because it's about the greater good, but you also have to take care of people's. You know, you don't want to leave people wounded in the wake of making change for the greater good. So. So you're a year in. Were you able to create this comprehensive listening system?

Speaker B: We are, we have, yeah. Very, very fortunate that the, the team has done a fantastic job. Right. It takes collaboration to solve any problem. And, uh, you have to be focused on execution. Right. At the end of the day, you have to, uh, get the results, as we discussed earlier. Right. So we absolutely have a great program that's set up where we're able to then take those insights and continuously improve the feedback and actions in place.

Speaker A: And so what are the components of your listening? Are you listening? Tell us, tell us what's included. Because it's not just about surveys. What are you doing?

Speaker B: Yeah, so we're doing listening and, um, from a relational and a transactional standpoint, um, across different, uh, parts of the customer journey and, um, identifying really the moments of truth there. Right. You can get so much feedback and you can be inundated by the feedback that, you know, you might be shooting a moving target. And that's not what you want to do either. Right. So you really have to take the time to analyze what's being said and focus on what you can improve. Right. That, um, 80%.

Speaker A: So when you say transactional, is that also behavioral? So if this happened, then this was the outcome with the customer.

Speaker B: Yes. So we've done that. It's more, uh, manual at this point, but we are looking at, um, technologies to make that a lot more efficient for us.

Speaker A: That's a hard transition.

Speaker B: It is, yeah.

Speaker A: We've got a question from Mara that's um, consistent with what you were talking about earlier. And, um. Hey Mara, thanks for joining us. How long did it take you to do the event evaluation to determine the pain points or areas of improvement, to, um, develop the plan? And was that just in C. In 90 days?

Speaker B: It was in 90 days. Um, it took about 30 days to do the customer journey mapping at a high level with what we needed to do in about, um. We used the other 30 days to really do, um, an in depth assessment of the insights. And we wanted to validate. Right. It's like always trust, but validate. So we wanted to validate that which we are hearing, um, based on this qualitative and quantitative feedback that we were receiving.

Speaker A: And I think there's a lesson here too, which is Mari said, did you get it done in 90 days? You're never done. Right.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And the thing about the other thing you mentioned, which I think is important, Christopher, is I always say, look, um, clunky is okay. The first version of anything you do may be about, um, pulling things, you know, by doing Excel or whatever you're doing. But just get started and it'll get better along the way. I would imagine you've had to teach people that too.

Speaker B: Yeah. The phrase I use is progress, not perfection. Right. We, we got it done, Mara. But it was not perfect by any means. Right.

Speaker A: Try. Clunky is good.

Speaker B: I like clunky.

Speaker A: Yeah. Tell us a couple things. That you're really proud of.

Speaker B: You know, when I, when I think about um, going through any type of transformation, it's you've got to focus on the people. And so I spend more than 50% of my time on the people and really proud of not only my team but our whole organization as we're looking at overhauling how we interact with customers end to end. Right. And looking at their journeys end to end, whether it's a B2B or a B2C channel. And so um, yeah, I'm absolutely proud of the employees at ssb. There's no better time to work for our company than now. It's fantastic.

Speaker A: Well, and I think so much of what you said is important is that you're getting into people's stuff, right? Things that they put their heart and soul into and they've worked hard at. They're um, proud of the outcome. And now you're, you know, you're disrupting the, the individual pieces to create a greater whole. And that's never easy. Um, Mara's got another question for you which is how did you validate the feedback?

Speaker B: That's, you know, that's a great question. So um, it depends on what came in. Right. But it was about um, working with a cross functional team to do it. So if it was data driven, we did some analysis. If it was qualitative, um, we'd call the customers. Right. And we wanted to make sure that it was the right, um, individuals within the team that was providing the feedback. And we kind of asked the so what question? Right, like tell me more behind those two, three, four different lines. You know, from when you look at like open text feedback, it's great, it's awesome. But you can have different interpretations or perceptions of an event. Like you know, the two of us can see an accident happen and we'll think two completely different things. Well, how we validated it was getting that customer feedback and calling them.

Speaker A: Good. And have you been bringing customers in as well on a regular basis to watch, to listen, to hear? Um, you know, I call it fearless listening. Besides, how did we do in the rear view mirror on a survey?

Speaker B: Yes, it's a great, um, great call out. And that is part of the journey for the back half of the year.

Speaker A: Oh, good, good to start doing this, this unaided listening.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. The unaided listening is the next step of the journey. To your point, it's clunky to start. We got programs in place, but now we're going to move to the next evolution.

Speaker A: Good. One little thing don't forget to have your C suite rotate and sit in on those conversations. Uh, super, super powerful. We've been doing them as Zoom meetings all through Covid. And you can bring 10 and 12 customers in at a time and three leaders. And then you can video it as well. Anything. If you use teams or Zoom or whatever you use, it's fascinating. And customers, um, are always bowled over that you took the time to just listen. You know, what's going on in your life, what's important to you, how do you feel? So, hey, go ahead. Did you want to say something?

Speaker B: I'm sorry, no, absolutely. I appreciate that because, you know, you mentioned that in your book and, um, it's something that we've got as part of the actions as we roll out that program.

Speaker A: Great. Well. And it continues to glue that leadership team together. Christopher, we've got one last question for you. We call it our pay it forward question. A lot of people love this one. And so for everyone else out there trying to do this work, um, go as far back as you want. What do you know now that you wish you knew then?

Speaker B: So the main thing I'd say is that managing the disparate systems and the employee experience around that is, is something that I wished I had known, um, beforehand. Right. When you, when you think about being able to have a great employee experience that drives the customer experience, limiting the number of systems and the types of systems that employee has to live in every day is extremely important. And I think that, you know, I would be even more aggressive about identifying what those are and how to consolidate them and make, you know, make the individual's job easier on a daily basis.

Speaker A: It's important that you say that because so much of the time we focus on the end user customer, but their life is completely impacted by what we're, um, enabling our people to do or not. You know, one of the things you might want to do is by each journey stage, bring your employees in again and just say what's getting in your way of delivering this. I'm sure you've thought about that already as well.

Speaker B: Sure. No, I think that that's a, that's a great, um, call up and something that we could do in the back half of this year as well.

Speaker A: Cool. Okay. So thank you so much for being with us today. It's been a fascinating conversation. If you are in, um, North America anywhere, you've probably slept or lived, um, on or had time on one of these beds or gone into one of these stores. So thank you. It's Ah, a big part of all of our life. Um, please remember to go to customerbliss.com podcast and sign up so that you can automatically get Christopher and all of our great guests into your inbox. And remember, wherever you are, we are here with our hand in the small of your back, helping you push that customer rock up the hill. Thanks, everybody. Stay safe. And Christopher, thanks again. It was great to have you with us today. Hi, everybody. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening and welcome to the Chief Customer Officer Human Duct Tape show. We are here today with my friend, John Pico. John, hi.

Speaker C: Hey, Jean. Good to see you.

Speaker A: Good to see you. Thanks for being with us today. Um, for everybody. I'm sorry, talked over you.

Speaker C: Nope. Glad to be here.

Speaker A: Glad you're here with us. For everybody who doesn't know John, and if you don't, you should look him up. He is, um, the author of a great new book called From Impressed to Obsessed. We're going to talk about it in a minute. This is your first book, right, John?

Speaker C: It is.

Speaker A: Well, I'm welcome. We welcome you to the crazy book world. Um, but, uh, before we get into this great, great book that you've written, let's talk. Talk about you. What I love about you is that you put in the hard earned time, you got the dirt under your fingernails. You were a practitioner first. Walk us through, um, your path. We call this the breadcrumbs. Because what I love about this work, John, is that we all figured out inside our innards that we're right brain, left brain, and we're good at doing this stuff, but we didn't know and somehow we found our way to this work. Does that make sense to you?

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. It's not. It can be a circuitous path, but, uh, you eventually get there, right? So, yeah, I mean, my. Where I, Where I'll begin is talk about dirt under fingernails. My entree into business was actually selling radio advertisements door to door.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: Uh, that was back in college, um, where the college radio station actually was a commercial, uh, station. It didn't get any funding from the university, and I wanted to be a radio dj. And they were like, well, if you want anything other than the graveyard shift, you gotta sell ads for us. And so that was actually my entree. And while customer experience wasn't really a term back then, that's kind of where I started to get this sense of how all the different interaction points with a sales prospect or a customer exert such a meaningful influence on their likelihood to purchase, to recommend you and whatnot and so that was kind of where I got the business bug. Um, and, uh, you know, then after graduating college and getting my mba, uh, I went to work in, uh, the financial services industry for Fortune 100 companies. And I had the pleasure there, actually started out in a rotational management training program. And, uh, you know, my career, my executive career there, um, it was almost like finding pieces in Trivial Pursuit. Uh, you know, I didn't plan it this way, but at various points I was leading sales, service, marketing, ops, distribution, even it. And what I realized was that gave me a very unique perspective on what it takes to deliver the customer experience. And actually, Gene, I mean, it goes back to the name of this show, right? Uh, these are the people that wrap together those functions with the duct tape. And it was by virtue of having that experience and walking in the shoes of all those different functional leaders, I really started to think, hey, you know, that's kind of a unique perspective to bring to the market. Um, and it brings some credibility. And that was ultimately what led me to say, I kind of want to start my own firm and focus on this. Uh, and, um, and so that I did in 2009. And uh, you know, the genesis of the book was really just about. I've had the book in my head for like 10 years and I just really wanted to get out on paper everything that I have learned from, from the companies I've worked with and studied that do this so well, uh, to share that with others.

Speaker A: Well, and what I love is you had big jobs. You want to name the couple of the big roles you had?

Speaker C: Yeah, sure. So, you know, uh, the final corporate role I had was senior, uh, VP of, uh, marketing for a Fortune 100 financial services company. Uh, and, you know, I was head of service for them at one point, head of their IT app development, development, um, head of their distribution for one of their institutional businesses. So, yeah, I mean, but it didn't start there. I mean, my first job, my first managerial role was a small customer service unit. Um, and like you said, there's no substitute for having that kind of experience to really understand what it takes to engineer, uh, an impressive experience for the people you're serving.

Speaker A: Well, and, and, and you know, what you said is really important. And I think so many people come to me and say, I want to be a chief customer officer. And they say, go run a part of the business from a customer driven standpoint. And that's all you do that first. You know, that's what being a chief customer. Right? What is going on right Now, John, it's crazy, right?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think I agree with you because I think that people that just kind of get plopped into the chief customer officer role without maybe cutting their teeth in one of those business line type positions, I think it's hard for them to earn credibility in the eyes of their peers. And so I think it's a much easier route if you're able to say to people, hey, I did walk in your shoes at one point. Now I'm in this enterprise role, you know, as chief customer officer, granted. But I was there. I understand the challenges that you face, and I think that is very helpful.

Speaker A: Yeah. And those that are the most successful have had multiple roles. They've evolved in their role where it's not about the ego and the climb and they care more about uniting than the personal spotlight on themselves. Right. I mean, I'm sure you've seen it as well because you work with chief customer officers and you work now as well.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think the most successful chief customer officers are the ones who realize their job is to make heroes of other people.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.

Speaker C: And, um, you know, and that serves them well, that kind of ethic.

Speaker A: So let's go. Let's talk about your book now. Now that everybody understands, John has there. There is a lot behind the writing of this book. By the way, how long did it take you to write the outline for your book? I'm just curious.

Speaker C: Oh, the outline, like as in the original proposal for the book?

Speaker A: Well, just drafting what it would be about. I remember when I wrote the first CCO book. I mean, your brain's on fire, right?

Speaker C: Yeah. So, uh, you, you know, I have to say there was a pause of four years, uh, between it, because I started writing the outline and the proposal. And then, you know, business was just so busy for me that I just couldn't dedicate my time to it. And, you know, this was one of the few silver linings of the pandemic, if you can call it that. But when lockdowns came in March of 2020, that's when I realized that was my opportunity. And I immediately finished the outline and the proposal, uh, you know, and my book agent, um, uh, circulated it and I got a book deal for it. And then I just sat and I wrote for, uh, you know, nine months. Finished the manuscript.

Speaker A: There you go. Okay, so maybe we're answering the question about why this book now or why this content now. Maybe that's a better way of thinking about it for you.

Speaker C: Yeah. So, uh, you know, the the reason that, uh, as I said to you, I really wanted to write the book, to get that on paper, everything that I learned over the years. But the thing that really motivated me to want to write the book was because something that has long upset me in all of my roles as head of Watermark and in corporate roles was that businesses subject customers to all sorts of indignities. Um, you know, if you look at it, for many businesses, it's less about enriching people's lives and more about sucking the life out of them. And you could argue that it's only gotten worse with the pandemic. Uh, you know, people are subjected to long waits, uh, hidden fees, poor responsiveness, unhelpful staff, if you can even find them. And then that's only one side of the coin. Because the other thing that I would say is it's also true for business leaders. Business leaders often subject their own employees to a host of indignities. Uh, not being responsive, not advocating for employees, uh, not developing them. All of these things, the things that you're seeing are triggering the great resignation. And what bothered me is that I knew there were so many simple, straightforward things that businesses and business leaders could do that would help eliminate those indignities, that would inject greater humanity into both the workplace and the marketplace. And that was really why I wanted to get it down on paper. Because I just feel like so many companies are missing huge opportunity here and so many leaders are missing a huge opportunity trinity.

Speaker A: So I couldn't agree more. What I constantly ask myself as you do, because I know in your business it's like you're saying the same thing over and over again often, right? What I mean in the book, do you, do you find a way to get them to flip the switch? Because I think that's, you know, everybody says they want to be customer centric or employee centric. What's going to flip the switch for people? And we're going to get more into it. But what, as you wrote it, what was, what was the switch flipping?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think it was. I think it's the simplicity of just some of the techniques that can be used that immediately elevate the quality of an interaction that a, uh, company or an individual is having with another entity or another person. Uh, I think that one thing, one criticism, actually I would, uh, lay, uh, at the customer experience industry and customer experience professionals is that sometimes they can over engineer things. Um, and it's, you know, it's funny, one of the 12 principles in the book is about, um, simplification and uh, you know, the thing, what's really effortless in the workplace is not creating simplicity, it's creating complexity. You know, that's why there's so much complexity in businesses is because it's effortless to create complexity. Where you really earn your pay is when you distill things into simple form. And so that's one thing that one challenge I would say is that in customer, in the customer experience, discipline, it's so easy to start overthinking and over engineering things without realizing there's so much low hanging fruit that can help you to immediately show credibility, that gee, wow, this really works. And that's my hope is that the way the book is written, with some, um, you know, very, with strategic insights, but also very tactical specific ideas for things you can immediately do tomorrow. I'm hoping that'll get people to kind of perk up and say, wow, you know, maybe we can do this.

Speaker A: Good. Okay, thank you. I just wanted people to understand because so many people are talking about this. And again, because you're a practitioner first, you've lived what I call the underbelly because at the end of the day it's about what you mentioned. Complexity comes because I'm rewarded and paid this way. And I'm going to do a set of things that create complexity because I'm doing this separate from the, separate from the, separate from, separate. And then the bundle of things that come together is what creates the difficulty for the customer. You spend a lot of time on your book talking about not a lot of time, but a m. Good amount of time. And I am in agreement with you around moving from lip service to act action that's leadership driven. And this conversation about how do you convince the board that this isn't just something that should be on our, you know, our mission statement, but that they need to care about as a key part of every board meeting and a key part of how they grow and lead the business. What, what's your thought on that?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So, you know, forgive me, I'm going to go on a rant here a little bit, but it's kind of a sore point for me.

Speaker A: So many you go for, you know,

Speaker C: when I go back to my corporate days, uh, this started back then. And then even when I launched my own firm, um, it was very frustrating because you see so many boards and so many executives that at the drop of a hat, they're willing to make significant investments in a whole host of things that have questionable, intangible roi, yet they don't have the same willingness to do that for something that's related to customer centricity or customer experience. Um, and you know what I mean by this leap of faith? It's like hiring the multi million dollar celebrity CEO or engaging, embarking on some really expensive merger and acquisition. Uh, you know, I mean, the funny thing about mergers and acquisitions is this leap of faith has actually been, uh, sort of codified in accounting, uh, in terms of goodwill. The goodwill, you know, the goodwill line. When you do a merger or an acquisition, you're essentially saying, hey, you know, trust us. We're going to mark up the value of this company. That's why it's going to pay off. But nobody takes that leap of faith. Or so many people fail to do it when it comes to customer experience. And that really bothered me. And when I started my own firm in 2009, it became an even bigger issue, right, because I'm not going to survive if you can't get people to sort of take notice. And so that actually was the genesis of what's called the watermark consulting customer experience ROI study, which, you know, I think is probably the thing that put me and my firm on the map, uh, initially back in 2010. And basically this was, uh, you know, one of the first analyses that showed a connection between shareholder value and the quality of customer experience. And so to answer your question, when you're trying to convince the board or an executive, I think you have to approach that in two ways. From a rational perspective and an emotional perspective, not unlike how you try to engage customers. So from a rational standpoint, I love that CXROI study because the centerpiece graphic on it, which now has 13 years of data, it's in the book. I mean, you just look at where the customer experience leading firms perform versus the ones that lag, and it's just striking. And, you know, that opens up a conversation with people. I find they might not sign a blank check, but at least they entertain the idea that there's something there. And so that's the rational piece. And then on the emotional piece, uh, you know, to quote the famous social, uh, psychologist Jonathan Haidt, once said that the emotional tail wags the rational dog. And ultimately you're going to get the boards and executives, it's going to be based on how they're feeling or whether they're going to sign on. And so I think it's very important that you need to evoke sort of a visceral emotional reaction from them around the current customer experience shortfalls. You need to have them observe some customers directly. Uh, you need to put quotes from customers in front of them. Uh, you need to use stories and vignettes that, that uh, illustrate the ridiculous horror that customers go through, you know, just to do the simplest things. Because none of those executives is going to feel good about that. Nobody likes to work at a company where you're just like, oh my gosh, we, everybody hates us so much. And so I think those are the two angles that I recommend people go at, the rational and the emotional, to really persuade people to say, hey, you know what, there really is something here and at the very least we should seriously take a look at it.

Speaker A: Well, and uh, you know, I think it's really critical to the way you're saying it because so much of what a board really wants to do is have an impact. Right. What's the legacy of this organization? Are we, I call it an admired company, meaning not on those lists, but are you admired for how you behave and that behavior earns a different kind of growth that isn't repeatable, that is insulated from the copycat actions.

Speaker C: Right. Yeah. And, um, not only is that the brass ring, Right. If you do it well, what I think is neat about the CXROI study is it shows you the penalty that's exacted if you don't do it. And I think that's a really important point too. It's not just the question, well, what is it going to cost to do this customer experience thing better? It's, well, what is actually going to cost us if we don't do it better? Because I think the ROI study shows very vividly how the companies that people love to hate, uh, over the long term, they sub perform, you know, not just the leaders, but they actually underperform the market index. And every board, as you say, their obligation is to the shareholders. Right. In a public entity, you can't just say to the shareholders, oh, well, you know, we're just striving to do the market index. That's not going to fly.

Speaker A: It is not. Okay, let's, let's talk about, ah, you know, something a little softer but critical to growth. Memory shaping. What do you mean by that?

Speaker C: Yeah. So, um, what I have found is that great companies recognize that they're not just in the business of shaping people's experiences, they're in the business of shaping their memories. Uh, and indeed, you know, I would say that how people remember their experiences with a business is arguably more important than the experience itself. And here's why I say that if, let's say one of my clients is asked by a colleague at an industry conference and they say, oh, hey, I remember you saying you work with Watermark on some customer experience stuff. We're in the market for some services like that. What did you think of Watermark? The next thing that's going to come out of their mouth is not going to be based on the experience they had with Watermark. It's going to be based on what they remember about that experience. And the way our brains are wired. Those two things, things can actually be quite different. And that really is the cognitive science behind customer experience. Uh, and it really underscores the importance of not just satisfying people, but impressing them of leaving that indelible impression in their head that's going to cultivate the repurchase and referral behavior that's really the lifeblood of any business. And so that's why I say that this has to be viewed as an exercise in shaping perceptions and in sculpting memories, because that's really how the best companies do it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, and ah, I mean I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. Been a broken record for years about, you know, memory creation really is, becomes the currency of your brand. In the book, do you provide content for people on how to go about? Because the next thing we know, we're going to have everybody that's going to do a memory shaping exercise or a memory shape. You know, it's not like that. It's not, you know, we get so focused on the mechanics that we, we don't realize it's the outcome of many things that form a memory.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I mean that really is the centerpiece of the book. Uh, you know, the 12 principles that are in the book are really the techniques for shaping those perceptions and memories. And as you said, uh, you know, it, it doesn't require some sophisticated, you know, memory shaping, mapping exercise necessarily. There are some really simple ways to shape people's cognitions in a way so that they actually feel better about the experience you're already delivering to them, even if you don't lift a finger to actually improve the underlying experience. You know, that's why I think this is almost magical in a way that it's able to achieve that kind of outcome.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. And it's so foundational to even how leaders, heads are wired in terms of what their higher purpose really is. And I'm, we're going to get to your 12 principles that kind of help to unpack Those in, uh, in a minute. I just want to get through a couple other things. Um, but yeah, I mean, let's go through some of the principles. If, if you want to, why don't you walk us through some of the really key ones that, that are important.

Speaker C: Sure. So, you know, I'll pick one. Uh, because I said, hey, some of this stuff is simple and straightforward. Um, I'm going to pick one that I think is a great illustration of that. And it's called giving people the perception of control. Um, and the way this one works is, uh, you know, we as human beings are control freaks. We like to have our hands on the steering wheel. And when we don't have our hands on the steering wheel, we feel just more uncomfortable about whatever experience we're going through. Now the problem is that in many businesses you can't give your customer what's called direct peer behavioral control. They can't have their hands on the steering wheel. Uh, you know, you were in financial services like me, for example, you know, you're going to develop a financial plan or you're going to buy some insurance, you can't underwrite it yourself. You can't do that yourself. You have to delegate that to someone. But in any business, the minute you have to delegate to another party, the risk is it's going to feel a lot less good. So the idea with perception of control is that studies have shown that if you just give people the sense of that they have control over the experience they're going through, then they immediately feel better about the encounter. And to illustrate this, uh, I'll share a study that's described in the book. Uh, it was a psychology researcher from University of Southern California and he worked with the American Red Cross. And they went there and they had, they broke the blood, uh, donors up into two groups. One group, uh, just donated blood, as you would expect. The other group, before they donated, they showed them a two minute video describing in detail the process of giving blood and what the, what the individual would likely feel both psychologically and physiologically. And when all was said and done, they interviewed the people giving blood. And the folks who watched the two minute video in advance said that they had a better experience giving blood and actually felt less pain.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: You got to look at that and say, well, how could that possibly be? But the answer is that merely by showing them that two minute video, what you did is you set expectations with them and that gives people the perception of control. Because now suddenly I'm not wallowing in ambiguity. I know exactly what's going to happen next, what comes around the corner. And as a result I feel better about the encounter. And so that is a great example. Setting expectations is an example of a way to give people the perception of control in any business endeavor and immediately make them feel better about the interaction. This is why, for example, a known wait in a line always feels better than an unknown weight. Uh, this is why smart call centers, you know, will have that recording when you get on, say, hey, your approximate wait time is five minutes. It's why Disney World has, you know, the, the sign up in front of every attraction what the current approximate wait time is. So that's one example of a principle which, uh, you know, tactically setting expectations, very simple, low cost way to implement that.

Speaker A: Well, and you know, I want to get into a couple more because the examples you're giving are really helpful. And so much of this is around delivering respect. Right. You mentioned it earlier. When you, when you enable people with the power to be in control of their situation and you give them communication so they can be in control of it, then it doesn't feel like uh, uh, a burden. Wrong balance of power. Right. Because often so much of what creates failure is it feels like the company's holding the deck of cards. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean I would go so far as to say that it's an act of incivility when you engage a customer. Right. With uh, on that kind of level. Uh, yeah, sure, you know, step into line. I'm not even going to look at you, acknowledge you. Uh, I'm certainly not going to tell you how long you're going to be here. I mean that is an act of incivility. To me. That's one of the indignities. That's basically me signaling to you, hey, you know what? I don't care about your time time. You know, good luck with the wait.

Speaker A: Uh, what about when the wait is four hours though? Or two hours? You know, we've all been on the call center recently and, and I, I have a huge amount of empathy because of what's going on with um, staffing shortages and everything. But it's a different ending.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker C: Well, actually I, I'll go back to that Red Cross, American Red Cross study because it turns out that there, that the researcher did a second study where instead of showing people the videotape, uh, what he did is half of the group was asked by the nurse taking the blood which arm they wanted to donate from. Okay. The other group was given no choice. It was just their non dominant arm and so at the end of the day, again, they interviewed all the blood donors and the people who were given the choice of arm. Again, like the ones watching the videotape, they said, I had a better experience giving blood versus the control group. Uh, and I actually felt less pain. And so you look at that and say, okay, well what is going on there? Because the choosing which arm to give blood from, you could argue is a really meaningless choice. I mean, either way you cut it, right arm or left arm, it's still a stranger coming at you with a sharp needle. But what the researchers realized is when you give people the power of choice, choice, even small, seemingly meaningless choice, it makes them feel like they have more control over the experience they're going through. So going back to the call center example, one thing that I'm a strong proponent of in that kind of environment is you want to give your customers choice. If I call and you say proximate wait time is two hours and that's it, I have no other choice. I'm not going to feel good about that. But if you say you can hold the line or if you'd like, we'll call you back when a rep is ready. And then they have the virtual queuing technology which allows me to do that. That is an example of giving people some choice, uh, which makes them feel better about the experience of waiting in line.

Speaker A: Okay, very good. Do you want to give us one more and then we'll go to some questions? So everybody start getting your questions ready for, uh, John?

Speaker C: Sure. So the second one that, uh, I'll share with you definitely, um, gets to this idea of memory shaping and it's called finishing strong. Uh, and basically what it relates to is the psychological bias that we have called the recency bias, meaning that the last thing that happens to us exerts a disproportionate influence over our overall impression of an experience. So this, for example, is why a lawyer's closing argument, uh, is so important. It's why a fireworks display, uh, finishes with an awe inspiring finale. Uh, it's why a decadent dessert comes at the end of the meal. It's all about these strong endings because it helps eclipse any negativity that might have occurred earlier in the experience, which

Speaker A: connects all the way back to memory.

Speaker C: Yep. Right. So it's all about memories.

Speaker A: The deal in a memory standpoint. Yep.

Speaker C: Right. And so, uh, in the book, I tell the story of Alaska Airlines, uh, which is perennially rated among the best airlines in quality of customer experience. Um, and, uh, back in, uh, it was like 2008, they actually rolled out what they called their uh, 25 minute baggage, uh, delivery guarantee. Um, and basically the way it worked was they said, hey, when your plane hooks up to the jet bridge, the clock starts and if your bags aren't rolling out of the carousel within 25 minutes, uh, we're going to give you uh, either a, uh, credit to your, to, to, to your next flight, um, or we'll give you a, ah, deposit 2,500 frequent flyer miles in your account. Okay. So the guarantee actually had some teeth. Well, surprisingly not. So coincidentally that same year they started on this amazing streak where they led JD Powers rankings for North American airlines for 12 years in a row. And I would argue one of the reasons was because they were focusing on that final touch point, that final interaction in the travel experience. So even if the flight attendants were so nice and so polite, if you get down to the baggage carousel and you're waiting 45 minutes for your bag, that is going to taint the entire experience. And so they were smart thinking, hey, what is the last interaction that we have with people? Let's make sure it is pristine. Uh, and that's going to help elevate their perception. And so this notion of finishing strong is something that's explored in the book. And I think it's really important and I think many people don't realize how, you know, in very subtle ways you can put these, that technique to work. And I'll give you one other example. Progress bars for installing software. Gene, have you ever installed software and it gets to like 99% and then it just stays there for like minutes?

Speaker A: Yes. What is that?

Speaker C: Well, it's wrong because the way, if you want to apply good customer experience design to that, what you should actually do is engineer it so that it starts slow and then it speeds up as you get towards the end. Because when, when people see that, gee, it went jump from 70 to 100 really quickly, that is actually the part that exerts the greater memory of that whole, of that small, small interaction versus if it gets stuck at 99% zip

Speaker A: and then chug, um, chug, chug, chug. So you're ending with, I'm waiting, going, what's happening?

Speaker C: Right Versus ending on an upswing like, oh, well this is, this is moving quickly. So you know, there are so many ways that people could put a technique like that into place and it really does make a material difference.

Speaker A: Well, and here's what I like about what you've written on and how you've Written. It is the practicality of it. And because through each section, um, you also give people action items and how they could do it. And again, I think what people think immediately is this costs a lot of money. But so much of what you're talking about is engaging your organization and, you know, uniting them in an approach that everybody can come together on. Would you agree?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I totally think it is complete agreement. Yes.

Speaker A: Okay. Not to take any money out of our pockets as consultants, but so much of this companies can initiate on their own, right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And also, you know, I would say it's not. There's also an angle to this where it can cost less to deliver a great experience to your customers. Because when you don't deliver a good experience to them upstream, what you actually do is you create, uh, unnecessary, avoidable contacts downstream which drive expense within your organization. So I think it is a fallacy that a great customer experience necessarily has to cost more.

Speaker A: Yes, agree. But I. I do just also want to say, a lot of times when people like us write books, people will say, why are you giving the secret sauce? But the generosity and the way you've written this book is. Is great and important because you're.

Speaker B: You.

Speaker A: You make your living by doing this, but you're also teaching people how to do this for themselves. So I just wanted to call that out as well. So let's go to our folks on the line listening to us. We've got lots of people here wanted, um, to say hi. Austin Augustine. I'm hoping I said that. Right. He's, um, congratulating you. Hi, Bill. My friend, um, Luis here as well. Uh, we've got some. And Tony. Do any of you have questions for me? Let's see. I think we're seeing one from Tony's auntie at the bottom. It's a pretty long one. But let me just, uh, try to cut to the chase here. Let's see, uh, telling chat about my issue getting routed to human sharing a gun. You read the whole thing. What are the high level steps you would take to direct and engage, um, personnel. Oh, American Airlines. He's specifically talking about American Airlines. But let's talk about personnel in general. Um, to fix this disconnect.

Speaker C: Uh, and the disconnect is. I didn't see the beginning of the question.

Speaker A: Back up, Zanti. I think it's the disconnect of being passed. Being the customer. Pass around, pack.

Speaker C: Oh, sure, sure. Yeah. So I actually, uh, one exercise I find very helpful for that is, um, the notion of, like, uh, stapling yourself to a piece of paper or stapling yourself to a customer request. Um, and what I mean by that is going through an exercise with your team where you actually, you tell them a story, like a vignette, uh, not made up, not fiction based on a real actual customer contact, showing how, you know, the customer started here and then they were bounced here, and then they went here and then here and here. And, you know, these are you. You go through this exercise with people and it's like talk about the emotional reaction. You know, not just appealing to their rat, to their rational, logical thought, but the emotional reaction. People just look at it and say, you got to be kidding me. You know, we did this. I mean, one person just should have been able to pick up the phone and completely resolve that entire situation. Uh, and that, I think going through that exercise, it goes back to what we were talking about in terms of persuading boards. It's this notion of how do you evoke this visceral emotional reaction from people where they just sort of realize, hey, this is totally unacceptable. I mean, we didn't realize how bad it is. I think that's an exercise that's helpful for kind of lighting a fire under folks and getting them to, um, and uh, motivating change within the organization, whether that change can be accomplished quickly, overnight, or whether it's a longer process.

Speaker A: Got it. Thank you. And the book is filled with these kinds of exercises for folks to initiate. Right. Okay, so here's, ah, Augustine. I'm so sorry, I'm the worst on names. I'm a family physician from Argentina, and I transformed myself from pure clinical activity to health informatics. Um, so let's see if there's a question. Okay. Um, at Osana, which is his, his startup, I need to build a real strategy for customer success, but I really don't know where to start and what kind of people to develop this with, I think is his question. Do you want to put that up, Santi, or do you get it from the, the, the comment over there, John?

Speaker C: Uh, no, I think I get it. Um, yeah. So, uh, so I think there are two parts I guess I'll address there. Um, uh, you know, first, uh, how do you decide what's needed for customer success and then the people to help you get there? Uh, in terms of knowing what's needed for customer success, I don't think there's any substitute for going out into the wild, uh, and observing your customers in their natural habitat, um, and, you know, speaking to them. And it's so Easy. And the book talks about this. It's so easy to become insulated in your office, to have some arrogance that you know what your customers want, you know what they need, you don't need to ask them. Uh, I think that's a really important first step that I would recommend is just getting out there. And it might validate some of your suspicions, but it likely also will reveal some things that maybe you didn't expect or didn't think about that are important to your customer's success. So that's number one. And then number two in terms of, uh, um, gathering the team to help you. Uh, this is going to sound very trite, um, but, and, and this is a much longer discussion, but I really think that when you are assembling people for that kind of team, you need to make sure you're hiring people that have the customer experience.

Speaker A: Gene.

Speaker C: Uh, you know, because you can teach what.

Speaker A: Not gene.

Speaker C: Sorry, G E, N E. Right. Um, but that's clever, Gene. Um, and the reason I say that is because you can teach anybody the technical aspects of your business, but to teach them the passion for customer experience, the empathy for the customer, you could argue that that's something that they really need to bring to the table with them because it's very hard to teach that to someone. And so as you go about assembling a team to achieve your ambitions around customer success, I would focus that selection process on making sure you're finding the people who don't just have experience. Maybe in your industry, in this case, I think it's healthcare. Um, but the people who really have that passion, that deep seated interest, uh, in customer experience itself. And I think that would serve your team well over the long run.

Speaker A: Great. Yeah, we used to call it hiring people with light behind their eyes, you know, and there are ways.

Speaker C: Dead eyes.

Speaker A: Yeah. And there are ways to figure out if there is the light, you know, I mean, hiring now is not about reading a resume. It's really gotta be about observing people and seeing who they are as human beings, not about how they execute the technical skill.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. The selection process is so critical.

Speaker A: Agree. My buddy Bill. Bill, I don't think you have a question, but I just wanted to make sure, um, you, we got you on, um, recorded what you said here. You said, I understand. Oh, here we go. Thanks, auntie. I understand, um, from John, that business is not about complexity, it's about simplicity. For me, I want a leadership, commitment to care, communicate, appreciate, recognize, empower. The more emotional connection, the more memorable the experience, the more Loyal, the customer. Anything you want to say to that, John?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, so, uh, Bill, uh, you know, he's got this CARE methodology, I believe.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: And I love it. And it's actually a great example of one of the 12 principles, which is simplicity. As a matter of fact, in the book, I talk about the, uh, four C's associated with, um, diamond grading diamonds.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, you know, and I talk about the background of that whole. Of that whole, uh, story, because there was a time where it was the Wild west, and. And there were so many different ways to grade diamonds. Consumers, you know, who were buying jewelry just. It was. They were clueless. And then somebody came along and created the four Cs, and it totally changed the industry. And so I just mentioned that because I think using acronyms like CARE or whatever, when you can distill sort of the behaviors or the customer experience, ethos that you're trying to promote in an organization, when you can distill it down into something that's easy for people to remember, that's a great example of putting the 12 principles to work. You know, that's simplifying for your team, for your employees, which is a type of customer, you know, in their own right, uh, to make sure that they are not burdened by complexity in terms of, well, you know, what does Bill want us to do? You know, how should we do. Do things differently when we go back to our desk? Well, you know, when you have a specific methodology and it fits nicely in a bucket with maybe a good acronym, that's a way of bringing simplicity to the workplace, and that's a positive.

Speaker A: Okay, so I've got one question for you before our final question, and it's. It kind of goes back to simplicity. You've got 12 principles. 12 principles is a lot of principles. Now, I. I'm not saying it's not right. Wrong to have 12, but people will ask you, which is the most important one? Which one should I do first? You know, you've already been asked this. How do you, you know, when you can only do three things? This is what people. You. This is what box we get put into your CEO. Also, there's 12 of them. Which is the most important one? How do you address that for people?

Speaker C: Yeah, so the. The book actually talks about this because there are companies that have been tremendously successful, but are actually doing things that are completely opposed from one of the 12 principles. Uh, a good example of this is one of the 12 principles is about making it effortless for customers. Well, you know, Aldi Is beloved. The grocery store, Aldi, you know, their target market loves them. It's not effortless to shop at Aldi. I mean, you know, you have to actually put a quarter into a slot to get your shopping cart, and you've got to bag your own groceries. That's not effortless. When you go to shop at Ikea and you want a light bulb, you can't just go get the light bulb. You got to snake through the whole showroom before you can get to the light bulbs. That's not effortless. But what I talk about in the book is that the 12 principles, while they are universal principles of customer experience design, they don't need to be applied universally, meaning that you can decide what it is you want to be famous for as a company, and that's going to help you choose which principles to accentuate. And it's entirely okay if you're not using all of them. Uh, and so there are stories in the book of actual companies that clearly do not embrace some of the principles, but it shows you the ones that they are embracing and how that helps them to create that memorable experience. Experience.

Speaker A: Great. Well. And, you know, I. I knew you'd wanted me to ask that question, because that's probably a question you get. You get a lot, right?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, and the other thing I would say is if you. If I had to choose, there are actually two principles that I think are, you know, uh, sacrosanct, and they're the first two. And they come. They're the first two in the book for that reason. And it's about the memory shaping. It's about creating peaks and creating peaks and avoiding valleys and. And finishing strong. They're really the foundational elements of the whole memory shape and concept. The other principles that come after them are really ways to put those into practice. And again, as I said, depending on what you want to be, you can use some of those versus others and still be successful.

Speaker A: Okay, perfect. So, John, we're going to go to our last question. I call this the pay it forward question. For others trying to do this work, wanting to take advantage of your body of knowledge. Um, so what do you know now that you wish you knew then? Yeah.

Speaker C: So, uh, I don't want to end, uh, on a downer here. I want to be realistic, you know, because I think it's a great question. Um, and what I would say is not everyone can be convinced about the value of a great customer experience. That is what I wish I knew then, that I know now, and what I mean, by that is there are some business leaders and some businesses that simply don't have it in them to grasp the value of customer experience, except on the most superficial level. Uh, these are companies and leaders for whom customer experience is corporate window dressing. It's something that makes for just good annual report copy. And I think that it's an important thing to know because in all of my work, I have found that the number one predictor of success for any kind of customer experience transformation is genuine, sustained executive commitment. And so that's what I wish I knew in my early years because I frankly probably wasted some time, you know,

Speaker A: haven't we all, my friend? Yes.

Speaker C: Customer experience is important to you. You want to make sure that you're affiliated with employers and leaders who share that passion. Uh, because as human beings, we're very adaptable. You know, it's like we get acclimated to our environment, um, which has clear evolutionary benefits. But in a professional capacity, it can be very bad. It means that you could waste years of your life, you know, working in an organization where it just turns out their ambitions are never going to align with yours. And so that's what I would say I wish I knew back then, is that there are just some parties that you won't, won't ever convince. And hey, you let them go on their path and you choose a better one for yourself.

Speaker A: Well, it's sage advice. Do you have that book to hold up for us, John?

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker A: So here it is. It is every. You might move. There we go. It's everywhere now, right?

Speaker C: It is everywhere. And actually right now it is the number, uh, one best selling new release on Amazon for both sales and customer relations books.

Speaker A: Well, congrats. That's a great, great feeling. Really great that you're here with us. Thank you so much. And what's your website so people can get more info?

Speaker C: Yep, so they can go to jonpico.com, j o n p I c o u l t dot com and from there they can launch to the, uh, book website, my consulting website, or my speaker website.

Speaker A: Okay, fantastic. And thanks, everybody. Thanks so much for being with us today. Remember, please go to, to customerbliss.com podcast so you can get John automatically in your inbox. You don't have to look for us all over the Internet. Um, and let us know if you want to tell your story as well. We're looking for great leaders and practitioners who have done the work before. They lead the work. And until then, remember, we have our hand in the small of your back, helping you push that customer rock up the hill. Stay safe, everybody. Thanks. Thanks so much again, John.

Speaker C: Thank you, Gene.

Speaker A: This episode is sponsored by Help Scout, whose customer support software is a leader in G2's winter 2022 report for easiest to set up, easiest to use, and best roi. If you're considering a switch to Help Scout, go to helpscout.com switch. They'll even buy you out of your existing. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Human Duct Tape Show. You can get our show notes, our links, and any tools we talked about today@customerbliss.com podcast. And while you're there, let us know if there's a leader you want to hear from on this show. And finally, only if we've earned it. Gander over to itunes or Stitcher and tell us how we did today.