The Business of Digital: Episode 35 - Hear Me Out - Harmonizing Your Marketing Mix with Audio Ads

Speaker A: The finest technology, the CD ROM computer. This is a multimedia system. Internet is massive to generate and one that's becoming really big now.

Speaker B: Welcome to the business of digital podcast, presented by IAB Canada. In today's digital Soundscape, I, audio is emerging as a powerful immersive medium that goes far beyond music and entertainment. From streaming services to radio and podcasting, audio advertising is reshaping the way brands engage audiences. In this episode, we sit down with two industry leaders who are helping shape the future of audio advertising. Heather Gordon, Managing Director of Canada at acas, and Caroline Genius, President of Radio Connects. Together we'll explore how audio fits into the omnichannel strategy, the measurable impact it delivers, and what the future holds for this dynamic format. A, uh, special thanks to ACAST and Sleepless Studios for supporting our podcast. Acast's commitment to the growth of podcasting in Canada is instrumental, and Sleepless Studios has provided an exceptional space to bring this conversation to life. Now, before we begin, I'd like to ask Heather and Caroline to introduce yourselves.

Speaker C: Oh, hi. I'm Caroline Jianias, and as Paulo said, I'm the president of Radio Connects. I have about too many decades to talk about or actually to admit to in the advertising industry, but, um, I've always been in media and I pretty much worked on every brand that's advertising just over the decades of having worked here. So very connected to clients and very connected to the industry.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Heather.

Speaker D: And I'm Heather and I'm managing director of ACAST in Canada. Um, my history, uh, is at, um, some traditional broadcasters at Bell Media working for really fun brands like MuchMusic and MTV, uh, then the CBC, Canada's national, ah, broadcaster. And now I'm at ACAST in Canada where we, uh, nurture and foster creative podcast talent and, um, match that creative with advertisers, uh, looking to reach that target demographic.

Speaker C: Can I say, I was in the business before MuchMusic launched.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: It was a good time. It was a very good time. The 80s was fun.

Speaker D: Did you ever go to the MMBAs?

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah, it was a great time. Couple days. I digress.

Speaker B: No, that's. That's fantastic.

Speaker C: With video.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic. Um, why is audio advertising having a moment right now? And how is it different from other formats in the media mix?

Speaker D: Yeah, so if, if I start and I, I will focus my attention on podcasting for, um, for this discussion and I'll pass it to Carolyn for, for other forms of audio. So, um, in terms of, um, podcasting, I, I think what, what's happening right now. And we were all just chatting before the podcast started taping. And what were we talking about? We were talking about podcasts. We were talking about the impact podcasts are having on our culture right now. In our specific conversation we were talking about Joe Rogan, who is, um, divisive, uh, to say the least. But, um, podcasts are very, very topical. Uh, we were also talking about politics in the US and there is a tie into podcasting. We saw with the last election how very important podcasts were, um, in the discussions. Um, consumers, listeners, viewers, whatever you want to call them, trust podcasters. Um, they have relationships, uh, with them and they trust them, uh, oftentimes more than they trust other media figures. And when people now are searching for news, they very often, um, find that in the form of podcasts where they have made that connection. So I think audio is having a moment in particular with podcasting, um, because it works, it's no longer an add on. It is officially part of, uh, everyone or most people's daily, um, media consumption habits. And I don't think it can, um, ah, be ignored any longer.

Speaker C: Um, I think just from a radio and audio perspective in general, I mean, you think about how long radio has been around. It was supposed to been killed by the video star. Well, that never happened. Um, but I think in a world today that's so fragmented and people are really challenged as an advertiser to get their attention, um, I think radio and audio offers an escape from that screen fatigue that so many people are experiencing. And because with radio and with the, with the evolution of technology, I mean it is the original mobile medium, probably some of your listeners are too young to remember the transistor radio which went with you everywhere. Um, and really the beautiful part about streaming, which you can stream your radio stations, you, um, can also stream your personal music. And I think this is what's happening now is that in the world of streaming, um, people are relying on the streaming services to curate their own library. So you're not going down to Sam the Record man with your, I can't remember how much it was to buy the 45s or even downloading them from Napster. Um, you know, not that that wasn't legal or anything. And itunes, so now we're allowing platforms like Spotify to basically curate those libraries for us. So it really just emphasizes the portability of media and how screens, when they're off radio and audio is a place to meet them.

Speaker B: Does that mean that, is it natural enough for us to see like radio Broadcasters or radio personalities moving to the podcasts space and expanding their content?

Speaker C: I believe so, I think. Absolutely, absolutely. Um, I mean it, it's got to be information that people want to hear. The podcast. A podcast for the sake of a podcast, um, just to say that you have one makes no sense. It's all about the content and it has to be something that people are interested. I mean, think about how many millions of podcasts are available right yet.

Speaker D: And lots of broadcasters that no longer are employed.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker D: The traditional places, um, will have their own, Will start their own podcast. I mean it's.

Speaker C: I listen to the bridge. Peter Man's bridge.

Speaker D: Absolutely.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: Have you seen advertisers, uh, spending on both broadcast and also streaming audio?

Speaker D: Absolutely, of course, yeah.

Speaker C: Absolutely, yeah. You need that foundation in, in terms of. If you think about Canada, we are a massive country with five or six time zones. Local media is very important because quite frankly we don't really have national media in Canada. We can say the television is national, but it's not. Not everyone has specialty, uh, um, specialty cable subscriptions. And we certainly know that there is challenges with um, cord cutters, if you will. So we don't really have national media in Canada. So local media is really important. And so looking at audio, especially radio, to provide advertisers with that ability to reach consumers in a Red Deer, which may not have a huge digital penetration just because of, you know, capability, that it's important to remember that a consumer in Red Deer is as important as a consumer in Calgary. They have money to spend and if you're not advertising to them with a local message, that's a huge opportunity. I mean, ppm markets are only 50% of the country and that's, and I mean back out French from that as well. Another underserviced market in terms of advertising spending. Canada, we don't do enough for French.

Speaker B: Now let's talk about measurement. Uh, what are the best ways to track success in audio campaigns across podcasting in radio?

Speaker C: Uh, do you want me to start with radio?

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: The challenge becomes what are you measuring? Uh, there's measurement for insight, which helps inform decision making, and there's measurement for currency, which is how radio and audio is transacted, whether it's on GRPs or impressions, cost per points or CPMs. So really the question is what are you measuring and what do you want to get out of the measurement? Canada M is a vast country. Measurement in Canada is very, very expensive. Um, and when it comes to audio or traditional radio, we have three distinct ways of measuring. We have ppms, which is passive measurement, which measures every minute. And we share that panel with television. We have diaries, which are a seven day accumulation of someone's listening habits. And then we have dar, which is telephone, uh, caddy interviews that tracks, uh, listening over a day. So each of those are different methodologies. So that's unfortunately the problem that we have in Canada is how do we get that one number? And I know it's frustrating for clients, it's been frustrating for me my entire career that you can't just say, well, how many ears were right were exposed to my messaging? Um, so it's a very expensive proposition. So I think sometimes measuring for insight can be easier in cases. Um, but as long as measurement is being used in broadcast for currency, uh, it's hard to kind of walk away from that. So much of that information is used to track how a station is doing, how the shares are working, um, how new talent is working out on a station. So it is challenging. But I also work on the World Radio association and looking around the world at different measurement. I mean Canada's actually looked to as a leader in audio measurement. I know that sounds crazy because everyone thinks that we're antiquated, but the reality is we're not. Um, we're definitely a challenging market. You think about the two official languages that we also have to measure. We're not even effectively measuring community radio or, um, indigenous or ethnic radio because again, it's too expensive to measure all of that. And for privacy you can't ask people those questions. So the challenge is, where are we going to invest? I would prefer to measure investment for outcomes to prove that the medium works. And you'll find a way to negotiate it. Right? There's always a way to figure out how to buy something. But I think we need to, in this very fragmented media landscape to really be able to measure by medium the outcome and what that medium is contributing to to the whole, uh, consumer journey. Because each media has a role to play in that. And it's not an either or selection, it's an and, and, and selection.

Speaker D: I like that. And, and, and.

Speaker C: Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. Additive.

Speaker B: Yeah. And is it the same for like podcasting? Um, how do you measure success?

Speaker D: Uh, yeah, it's dependent upon what the client objectives are and how they measure. But we have many tools, uh, to prove the efficacy of podcasting, um, but again all based on what the client's expectations are.

Speaker C: And certainly in radio, um, through iheartradio or audio Velocity. Excuse me. They also have the same traditional ways of measuring metrics. They can serve it programmatically. The challenge we have in radio is how do you serve programmatically one to thousands as opposed to one to one. That becomes the challenge, finding a solution. Whoever figures that one out, it's going to make some serious cash.

Speaker B: Maybe it's Acast, who knows? Right?

Speaker C: That'd be great.

Speaker B: Yeah. So Heather, I mean we've started talking about this earlier but I just want to dig into this. Um, how does audio pair with other channels in the media mix? Uh, and can you share examples where it um, amplifies results when combined with video, social and display?

Speaker D: Sure. Um, yeah. Back to the omnichannel executions. We've had um, some great success in Canada and globally working with partners. Um, one example I always love to share is uh, our partner Airbnb. We worked with two of our podcasters, Cat and Nat, which you may be familiar with, and Jesse Cruikshank. Um, and we sent Kat and Nat to go stay at Jesse Cruikshank's Airbnb in California. Um, and we captured this experience on video, uh, and in social and in audio. And um, the execution was played out ah, across all of those platforms, capturing the visual elements and just the audio on the elements. And of course the personalities of all three, um, of those women are spectacular. And um, it was a really well done execution uh, on behalf of Airbnb, um, that I love. We've also um, started leaning into creating ah, episodic content for clients. So we did one also with Kat and Nat with Starbucks where we created a 20 minute episode that lives within Cat and Nat's feed. So it feels organic, um, and it's not a 20 or 30 minute uh, advert for Starbucks. It was uh, more experiential in that Cat and Nat walked um, through some of uh, their earlier times in uh, the, with the birth of their children and, and raising them and just the experience of having a uh, local Starbucks and how the kids basically grew up there and the baristas would recognize them and stuff. So, um, just really wonderful content that is sort of embedded into their feed, making it feel organic, um, but still in their voice, um, which was really lovely. So we have plenty of those examples and all of those will live out and play out on whatever feeds, um, lean into the strength of the podcaster and where they have the biggest audiences.

Speaker B: I like what you said about in their voice and I just wanna, and maybe you could tell us a little bit about it, um, how important Is it for podcasters to keep their authenticity when working with.

Speaker D: It's everything. Um, and that's the reason why podcasting works, uh, is because people, consumers, listeners trust their hosts and that's the benefit of the advertiser when they can tap into that trust. So a host, host read that isn't authentic. You, you can tell if um, you know, we work with all of our podcasters to understand um, we call it the no fly zones on who, who, what products they like, what products they don't like. If, if you are a sober individual, you're not going to want to do a liquor, uh, advertiser or if you don't eat meat like everybody's got their things. And we work to pair the podcaster with the advertiser. That makes sense. It's not uncommon for us to call up a uh, client and say, oh my Lord, so and so absolutely adores your X, Y and Z and they would love to be able to work with you. Um, so yeah, so that authenticity, that, that trueness, it, the audience can tell. So it is something that we try and live by.

Speaker C: Absolutely. Um, in terms of radio, um, I like to think of all boats, all boats rise with the tide when radio is included in a campaign. I mean I've seen numerous studies that will show you the incremental reach that you can gain by adding radio. Um, because I think the problem becomes again we're not looking at national and a lot of the, and this is the frustration I think we have to be very careful with moving forward. A lot of people are talking about AI in terms of media planning. If you don't, if the AI is not fed with enough case studies, with enough data for the media that's being used, it's never going to be recommended. So I mean that's, I think we have to be very careful if we embrace because what we will miss is that additive nature of having a multi platform media campaign will deliver. Because I mean I myself have run just some scenarios through chat, uh, bgt, not hugely sophisticated, but just to kind of get some information and all it can do really is garbage in, garbage out.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Because it's just scraping the Internet to find the case studies, to find the data, to find the fact points and I'll ask it to source. But if there's not enough information out there, um, it won't. Radio and audio won't be included. And this is not new because I can tell you when I worked at a global agency, um, like 10, 15, 20 years ago even we were looking at develop proprietary tools. And I remember having conversations with the UK and with France and it's like, okay, we're a big country here. You know, we've got different time zones. Local media is really important. If I can't give you a total reach number for radio and fake out a CPM for you, because that's how they're evaluating the effectiveness of including audio or out of home or newspaper. Because newspaper is very popular for a time. Yeah. In that, um, in those scenarios. Right. So if it doesn't have the correct information, it's not going to get recommended. So I think as an industry we have to be very careful in the audio space that we're providing the information or that clients will release the information because it's hard to get case studies if nobody wants to share the golden secrets that they have.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, but it behooves the entire industry if we can find ways to, to make public the proof points that audio radio works. So it will not be excluded from media plans. Because any plan I've seen before and after when radio is included, ROI improves reach, improves attention, improves, um, category score. I mean look at any brand lift study, you'll see that it improves when radio's out in the mix. Because audio is one of the more important senses. If you think about it, when you want someone's attention, you don't say look at me, you say listen to me. So if you really want to get that attention, audio is an incredible way to do it because people will create that own vision in their head of what they're hearing. It becomes a very personal story. So one, it's important to have great creative because that's how you will see the impact of radio. And two, you've got to make sure that it resonates with what it is you're trying to sell. And it's true to you and true to the brand. But.

Speaker D: And it's cost effective because it's very cost effective.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And you can turn around on a dime. Any radio station. I mean, I've done it for many, many clients. You know, you can turn them around remotes. Look how effective it is when you get people out in the parking lot. You know, of, you know, we're broadcasting chfi, um, is doing a remote at, you know, IKEA or something. Yeah. People have interest and they will respond to that. So I mean, again, just how radio works with other media. It works extremely well. But it, we need to find a way in the future to be or to future proof the medium is make sure that we have enough data out there that isn't, that's being absorbed into those AI models that shows that benefit otherwise, you know, and that's the same for out of home. That's really the same for any local medium. Because what will come back time again is digital and national tv. Digital and national tv. But that's not the only media that's being consumed. I mean audios share of spend relative to the time spent is like 10 to 1.

Speaker D: Yeah, right.

Speaker C: Only a fraction of the media dollars are being invested yet the amount of time people are spending with audio, I mean radio is close to two hours a day. You know, that, that adds up over the course of a week. And if you're driving in Toronto, that uh, may be four hours a day.

Speaker D: Yeah, right.

Speaker C: So it's, it's really important.

Speaker D: And the, maybe the younger generations working at the agencies, they, they do.

Speaker C: I mean, it's funny, I was actually giving a presentation not too long ago and asking, you know, first of all, how many of them have a driver's license, never mind own a car. Um, and you know, it's, it's shocking when you think not many people do because they live in Toronto. They use the transit when it's working properly.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Or they take the go train. So they're not necessarily thinking about radio. But when you actually think about how many people are commuting, most adults commute. They don't take transit like adults. 18, 49, 25, 54, 18 plus most of them are commuting. I mean just take a look at the highways any time of the day.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: It took me an hour and a half to travel 30 kilometers this morning. Yeah. Along the, along the gardener and the qe. So I mean when we talk about radios, it's not that radio is dead. They've just stopped paying attention. And we need to get them to understand that the misperceptions that they may have about radio, and that's what we do a lot on, um, the radio connect side is we dispel a lot of those things. Like radios dead. It's like. No, it's not. You're just not paying attention to it.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: What are the innovations or trends are you most excited about in the next 12 to 24 months when it comes to the audio ad space?

Speaker C: Boy, if I could make over the air Programmatic, I would be incredibly happy. That would be great. But again it's, I know that's a great buying experience. It would be, it'd be tremendous to get that scale, that trust that, um, you know, brand recognition, that community sense programmatically would be tremendous. I know in some countries, like Germany, they're creating their own ad service for radio stations. But again, they can do that because it's one time zone and it's very specific geography. Um, but, you know, Canada, just think about, we have 700 and some odd, just commercial radio stations alone. So how can you programmatically link those, you know, fourteen and a half million impressions every day? I mean, if you think about, radio reaches 14 and a half million people every week, 600,000 of them every day, every minute, rather. How can you make that 600,000 impressions, a one to one ad delivery? I mean, if we could do that, I mean, I think radio would become the number one audio. Sorry, the number one medium out there. Can someone fix that and do that, please?

Speaker D: Um, yeah, that. We'll have to talk about that. Um, you know, I'm excited to continue to watch the evolution, um, podcasting. Our role in Canada is to help nurture and help creators, uh, grow, uh, independents and media organizations, um, alike. And just looking forward to the development of, uh, omnichannel programs, um, and seeing how big we could make, uh, podcasting and audio and getting the attention of our partners that need to remember the importance of the imagination and theater of the mind.

Speaker C: And I mean, you think about the. I mean, I used to work with Terry O'Reilly when I was at shy day. I mean, he could, I mean, Everybody knows Terry O'Reilly. He's got that great show podcast.

Speaker D: He's one of ours.

Speaker C: Yeah. On the CBC. Um, I mean, it's always about. You've got 30 seconds to influence someone in the most imaginable way possible. And even though it may be not personalized to them through cookies or whatever, they make it personal in their own heads.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Because they're envisioning their own story. So whether it's a new car and you know, if you're, if you're picturing a new car. Well, your, my car might be red, your car might be white. What does it matter what that looks like? Because I'm envisioning my car.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: My ride. So, I mean, audio is one of those things that does that so effectively. It's, I mean, hate to say it, it's the old school, but theater of the mind.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Right. And pay a lot of attention to the creative. It's cheap to produce.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And it's incredibly effective. Preach, Preach.

Speaker B: All right, I guess my last question, and you've kind of answered it already in some way or form. But what advice would you give brands that are still hesitant uh, to invest significantly in audio? What's the first step that they should take?

Speaker C: I mean I think the first thing is any media plan, whether it's investing in audio, is state the objectives, clearly evaluate what those KPIs are, how you're going to measure success. Um, and for radio, think of video. When you're planning radio, it needs the same care and attention to get to effective levels in order for people to connect. I mean you think about radio, it's a Monday to Sunday, it's always on and not everybody's just listening at breakfast. Not everybody's just listening at drive. I cannot tell you the number of times clients have come to me in the past saying, well I don't want to, I only want to buy breakfast. Well why? Well that's the only time people are listening. Um, not everybody works nine to five, you know, so radio works on reach and reach is about reaching everyone. So I think that it's, it's understand what the um, the KPIs are, understand what the objective is and produce really good creative. Don't just take your audio ad and strip it. I mean you also have the opportunity in radio to format your ads based on the format of the station because you know, country music listeners may have very different ideas or understandings or attitudes towards some things versus you know, someone listening to ah, you know, hot FM or, or listening to uh, news talk. You can create very effectively ads that actually work with the format that they're being played in and that makes an even better connection.

Speaker D: And can those audio partners create that creative.

Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. Every radio station has a creative team. Yeah, um, that can, that can do that.

Speaker D: So if you don't have creative, if

Speaker C: you don't have creative, it's incredibly easy. In fact every year we, Radio Connects runs a contest, uh, to celebrate World Radio Day where we um, send out a uh, creative brief to all the Radio Connects member stations asking them to produce an ad based on the brief that we give them about what the world radio has. And we've had some great. In fact one of the first ones we did was um, Mike Akamore and it was actually won um, an award down in the US at their radio awards for um, non profits. So I mean in the United States, you know how much competition you have for ads in the United States. So we have tremendous talent in radio in Canada that can produce ads.

Speaker D: It's same thing for us. It's host reads. It's an affordable way to have creative produced and the voice of the podcaster, um, to leverage that trust, um, and just, you know, get, get involved. It's, it's audio is an important part of your media mix, um, and, uh, and talk to your partners. You can do it cost effectively, um, with big impact, I think.

Speaker C: I hope people have heard it. But, um, since, oh, gosh, I guess since the election in the United States, um, Mike Ockmore and his company Larry, uh, McInnes and their company Pro Bono, have producing ads saying, um, shop like your country depends upon it, which you've probably already heard. And they've, they've used Canadian personalities like Ron McLean, Sarah, uh, McLaughlin, a tremendous host of Canadian, uh, talent that resonates with Canadians in their own specific field of entertainment. And it's all about shop like your country. They're standing up for Canada and shop like your country depends upon it. It's brilliant, creative, and it's. They put it on, on a dime. The stations run it.

Speaker D: Amazing.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Heather and Caroline, for all the insights today. I feel like I learned more about audio advertising with just this conversation than I've had in the past few months, so thank you.

Speaker C: All right, excellent. Go to radioconnects for more and acast.com thank you.

Speaker B: And of course, tune in for the next episode of, uh, the Visit digital podcast by Ivy Canada. Thank you so much.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker D: Thank you.

Speaker A: The latest technology, the CD ROM computer. This is a multimedia system. Internet is a massive computer engine and one that's becoming really big now.

Speaker D: This is a machine that a lot

Speaker C: of people are going to be able to afford.

Speaker A: That's a very, very use. You can see robots that can learn to walk from nothing, you know, within hours.