Don't Do His Laundry: The Rule That Went Viral and What It Really Means for Moms (with Paige Connell)

Speaker A: Welcome, beautiful boss moms. You've got Dana Malstaff here. And I gotta tell you, I was scrolling Instagram a little while back, as I do sometimes, and I had a video that got served to me with 5 million views. 5 million. That's a lot of views. And when I looked at the title, it said, here's the list of things I don't do for my husband. And I thought, hm, I wonder what the comments say about this? And it was so interesting to see how many women were like, yeah, I'm on board with this. How many women were like, yeah, this is. I don't do my husband's laundry either. And how many of them were like, no, it is my job to make his life easier. And what is so interesting, because obviously my guest is the one who posted it, is that it shows this really diverse view about what home, what equity in terms of. Of who does what, what mental load, what, you know, connection in relationships and households should look like. So my guest is a working mother of four who uses her platform on TikTok and Instagram to fiercely advocate for equity for women and men, both at home and in the workplace. And it's so interesting because when her and I got to talk, just, it was just fascinating. Like, I don't even think I can explain to you how interesting this conversation is, by the way. She's married. I am divorced. Um, and. And even just that conversation was super interesting. And this is so relevant to us moms because if we want businesses, if we want dreams and desires, if we want, um, to shift our life into a different space, if we, if we want to build whatever it is we want to build in the midst of motherhood, in the midst of partnership, right then, then these are the con conversations we have to have. So I'm really excited to introduce Paige Connell. Um, her and I had an absolute blast having, um, this conversation, and I really think you're going to enjoy it. So I will not keep you from her any longer. And let's hop in.

Speaker B: Hey, Paige, welcome to the Boss mom podcast. I'm super pumped to have you here.

Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker B: Okay, so. Oh, my gosh, before we hit record, we are already starting to talk. You've got so much going on. I normally would ask people when they come in, like, tell me about your journey between, like, being a boss and being a mom, and you basically got, like, hyper drived into not, uh, into motherhood in a very unique way. And I think it's probably a good start because I, I Yes, I. I haven't heard anybody with quite your story. Um, but I think it opens up to then your experience. Experience in. In the mental load, in, you know, your partnership and some of these things that your topics that you talk about. So share with everybody how you became a mom.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, my journey to motherhood was definitely more unique than some others. I. My husband and I were foster parents first and foremost. That was our first journey into parenting. Um, we became foster parents in 2019, and our two oldest, who are now adopted, moved in with us in that summer. Um, and then about eight or nine months later, I was pregnant with my first biological child. And two weeks after finding out I was pregnant, it was Covid. And I had a baby during COVID and then had another baby 18 months later. And so we went from no kids to four kids in basically three years, less than three years, and really got thrown into the fire. And I in particular, I think, took the brunt of it because I worked for a startup and was remote during COVID and became the default childcare person. Um, and my husband is a blue collar first responder, so it was never remote. Remote, not one day. And so I really took on a bulk of the parenting responsibilities in childcare during that time alongside still being a person who was working and pregnant. And so, yeah, it was just quite a journey.

Speaker B: Yeah, that. Okay, that is. That's a lot. Did you guys always know you wanted kids? Uh, did you grow up in families with large sibling count?

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm one of four, he's one of three. I really loved having four kids. Um, so something about not having, like, a true middle always was appealing to me. It's like I. I really liked. I liked my childhood. I really enjoyed it. And I always. I always thought I would have four kids. I didn't know what it would look like. I didn't know it looked like this. Um, but yeah, we both always wanted, like, a bigger family if we could.

Speaker B: Got it. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So

Speaker C: how do I.

Speaker B: How do I say this? When you got into, like, you foster kids and then got pregnant and they're gonna. Did you know what you were getting into with motherhood? Like, did anything surprise you? I'm like, I always knew I wanted to be a mom. I always KNEW I wanted two kids. I wanted them close together, minor 22 months. Um, I want a boy and a girl if I could. That's just because I had an older brother and I loved it. Like, I had a very visual in my mind. But having kids was never a question for me, I knew exactly what. And then when I had kids, there were things that surprised me about how either hard or easy things were. And then. But there's a lot of things that I was like, oh, I expected these sort of things. What are the things about especially being thrust into just. Just biologically, you can't have four kids in the amount of time that you had four kids, obviously.

Speaker A: Right. So that's.

Speaker B: Oh, I guess you can if you had. If you had quadruplets or two twins. I was the same.

Speaker C: My mom. I'm a twin, and my mom had four kids in three years. We were just. Yes. I was gonna say, you know, some people do.

Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, I stand corrected.

Speaker C: Yeah. So.

Speaker B: So from motherhood, like, being thrown, you've just got a unique perspective. What are some of the things that you felt were easier, hard, or surprising? And I know you're in Covid, so you get, like, double extra.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, I always tell people the things that were really hard would have been hard regardless, but they were amplified. Right. Like, the isolation that you feel in early motherhood was there, but it was amplified because it was Covid. It was 2020, and I, um, couldn't have anybody at the hospital, and I couldn't have people come visit, and I couldn't have people come help. Like, it was the winter. Um, I. The things that I found hard about parenting had nothing to do with the kids, is what I learned. It really had everything to do with, um, the systems and structure we have for parenting and how a disproportionate amount of work of parenting landed on my plate. And I didn't expect that. And I say that because I, like many other women, had a partner who was incredibly supportive. We had a very egalitarian relationship. We both earned good money. We both shared the work of our home and our lives. You know, I'd been with my husband since I was 16. Like, uh, I knew who he was, and we worked really well as a team, and we had children. And we also had children during COVID And so much fell on my plate. So much became my responsibility. The mental or, uh, the actual physical work. Right. All this stuff just landed on me, and I didn't foresee that happening. And so I didn't really have conversations with my husband about it. I didn't know how to recognize it when it was happening. I always say it's kind of like a snowball where it starts small, but it rolls down the hill, and it picks up snow and it picks up speed, and eventually, you can't Stop it. Because it's just so big. Like you're like this, how did this get away from me? And it doesn't happen overnight. And that was the hardest part for me. It wasn't the kids. Um, it was really everything that happens around the kids. I always joke that like laundry has nothing to do with parenting, but unfortunately when you're a parent there's a lot of laundry. Right. Like they're not. It has nothing to do with being a good parent, but it does happen as a result of having children.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I, I remember the part of the, why I had reached out about having you on the show was some of the ways you talk about things you do in the house, things you don't do for your husband. Right. Like things he does for him and you do for you. And some of those, some of those things. And, and that communication you talked about like you were great, you knew who each other were like beforehand you became other. That shifts and often that doesn't necessarily shift for the man, it shifts for the woman. Because we kind of have this identity. Not a uh, it's not this identity break. It's just that we like all the things we thought we, we wanted kids and then we had these dreams but then now that we have kids, everything has to sort of re merge together as one thing. And I think it becomes really confusing what we want and for like somebody who is who, uh, like it sounds like from what I've seen from you, and I don't know you very well, but that you enjoy work, you enjoy doing things, you enjoy, you know, there's an ambition part of building, creating, being a part of team, you know, outside of motherhood that I actually think is insanely valuable for our kids to see. Um, but, but yeah, so, so from the communication part with your husband, where's some of those things that you, that I know you talk about online that our audience can start to get to know? Because I think there's some real value in the way you talk about your guys relationship. Especially even like how it pertains to how you maintain a home.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: You know it's so funny because some of the things that I do in my relationship I never really thought twice about. Like I didn't think they were controversial at all. Like I was like, oh, this is just like how people live their lives. I don't know, like I thought it was normal. Um, the big one that really caused an uproar was whenever I say I don't do my husband's laundry People get really upset.

Speaker B: That was the one that got served up to me.

Speaker C: And you know, I've never done his laundry. Like, I'll switch it. Like, like if it's in the dryer and he's not home, I'll fold it. Like, it's not like I like refuse to touch his laundry. I just was never responsible for it. When we moved in together, we were both adults who had been living on our own. He did his own laundry. I, uh, did my own laundry. He's also a blue collar worker, so his clothes are disgusting. I'm like, don't put them near my clothes. It really was, it was nothing really crazy, right? But I remember, I've shared this story online before, but I remember being at my husband's house, like his childhood home, with my mother in law, and she told me, um, just like offhandedly, she's like, you know what, just never do his laundry. And I don't remember what was happening. And she said, you will learn to hate him. And I was like, okay, well I don't do his laundry. But also I thought at the moment, like, wow, she's such a bitter woman. Like, what's her problem? Like, what a weird thing to say. But what I, what I understand now, right. Ten years removed from that day, is that she was trying to warn me that when you set expectations and take on work as part of your partnership, without conversation, without mutual engagement and equity, you will resent your partner. Right? So maybe you first take on. I think this is what happens with a lot of women. I'm on mat leave, I might as well just do all the laundry. I'm already here, right? I'll fold the laundry. Then you get off mat leave and you keep doing all the laundry. And then it becomes this expectation that you do all of the laundry and you sit there one day and go, how did I become the person who does all the lot? Like why, why is this me? Right. Um, but so yeah, in our house, I don't fold my husband's laundry and that upsets a lot of people. I do, however, fold all of the kids laundry. Right. We have a very clear division of labor in our house. There's certain things my husband does, certain things I do. He cooks dinner most nights. Not every night, but most nights. And that upsets people a lot. Which I find so interesting. Because if you ever heard that a woman cooked dinner every single night, nobody would bat an eye.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: They wouldn't care. That's normal. That's what we expect. But my husband Doing it. That is out of the norm. Right. And people don't expect that from men. And they, um, don't like it. Men don't like it. Um, is what I've learned. Is it.

Speaker B: I was gonna say, is it the men that don't like it?

Speaker C: It's men who typically don't like it. Um, I think it's in particular too. I think there's this interesting narrative. My husband's a blue collar worker, and so a lot of the comments is like, he works labor. How dare you make him make dinner? Um, and so there's this narrative of like, he works harder than I do, therefore I should serve him in that way and make dinner for him and the kids and like, my job as the kids. His job. Is that. Is that right? And, you know, regardless of whether or not I'm here or these kids are here, that's his job. That's his chosen profession. That's what he chooses to do. Like, he'd be eating dinner one way or the other. Right. So that, like, I don't know, it's strange. It's strange to me, but it's always so, uh, strange to me how people don't like it when women choose not to do things in service of other people. And it's interesting because I make breakfast, I make lunch, I make all the snacks, I do all the laundry, I do mornings by myself. Like, I do exponentially more like on paper than my husband does when it comes to the kids. But the fact that he does dinner and I don't fold his laundry is really like, um, an upsetting thing for some people. And I think it's just a reminder of how far we still are from true equity when it comes to men and women and how we view their roles, specifically when it comes to caregiving and family life. Um, and, and I think we have a lot of work to do there overall.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I, I also think, I think. And I have a son. So I've thought about this. He's my old. He's gonna be 13. That, that I. Yeah, I want to teach him that, that, that the family is what you make of it. Like, I would assume that if your husband hated cooking and he was super terrible at it, that might not be the thing he does every night. Like, obviously there is some aspect, or if you freaking loved cooking and it was your favorite thing to do that you wouldn't then have him do it. So it's like every family is going to be different in how they contribute. It's like, I Want to be able to teach my son that. That those. Those are things that you discuss and figure out. Like, I don't mind loading the dishwasher, but I hate unloading the dishwasher. So if somebody can. If the kids just help me, like, somebody help me unload the dishwasher, because then clean's dishes will stay there forever. Taken out.

Speaker C: Yeah, you have to have conversations. I think people assume. I think what happens oftentimes in relationships is we make assumptions and. Or we just take things on. So, for example, I was the remote person, um, with my job, where I had at least remote options. So whenever the kids were sick, it just. I just assumed I would do it. I'm gonna do it. Right? Um, that put me in a position where I was working till 11pm I was having to, like, make up work all the time. I was working over the weekends. I had no time for myself. I was stretched incredibly thin. And one day my husband was like, I can take pt. I can take a sick day. And I was like, I know, but, like, I can do remote. And he's like, we need to talk. Like, that's not how this works. Like, you don't have to take every day. Right? And so sometimes I think it's like, we take things on that we assume we should take on because of the dynamics of our lives. And I think dinner is one of those good examples. I hated cooking dinner. I remember I just hated answering the question, what's for dinner? I hated cooking dinner. And my husband was like, I don't mind cooking dinner. I'm happy to do it. He hates laundry. I don't mind laundry. Like, it's mindless for me. I'm like, sure. Like, I'll fold the laundry. It takes me two seconds. I can tell which pair of leggings belongs to which girl in two seconds. Like, he has to look at every label, and it takes him so long. And I'm like, just let me do the laundry. Um, and so, yeah, we have conversations about these things, and we really try to base it off of our, you know, home. There's a lot of nuance here. My home is different than someone else's home. Our jobs are different. Our kids are different. Um, my husband can never do mornings. He's at work before we wake up. It'd be weird if I was mad at him about that. I'm not. Like, that's just how our life is. Um, so we do it based off the realities of our lives, but also our strengths and our weaknesses. I'm incredibly type A incredibly organized. My husband's neurodivergent. He's like, the bills that gives me a, I can't, like, I don't want to look at that. And I'm going to pay everything late. And so I do all the bills. Right. Like, so I think we have these conversations about, like, what are you good at? What am I good at? How do we make this as fair as possible? And then on top of that, how do we also still have time to be people outside of all of this? Because that's ultimately the goal is not to, like, live in the weeds of fat, like the family life and the cooking and the cleaning, but to have a really good system so we don't have to talk about it, so we can just live our lives and like, have time for each other and our hobbies and our friends and our kids. And, um, that's really why I care so much about putting in the work here, because I actually think on the other side of the work you get freedom and flexibility.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, and, and I also, for, for everybody listen to like, I, I, I'm sort of the other side of that where I'm divorced. I got divorced when my kids were young. I tell each other we were friends, but we just didn't want to make out and we didn't have the same dreams.

Speaker C: I get that.

Speaker B: Um, we're still friends. He's remarried, we all hang out together. They live down the street. I tell people, don't get divorced because it's not going to happen. I got lucky. The way my life is. Do not take me as an example. Um, but one of the things is, I remember when my kids were 2 and 4 and, and I remember everybody

Speaker A: told me, they're like, oh, what are

Speaker B: you going to do? Like, this can be so hard to do this on your own. And I was like, no, I've been doing this on my own. He's going to have a hard time because he's never actually had to take care of the kids or figure out who's watching them or any of those things. Like, I'm going to miss my children on certain days. But I, but it's very interesting and I love what you said about figuring out what you like or don't like because I, I always live within walking distance or bike ride distance to the school because so I move around based around, like, where, where they're going because they're one year apart from school and because I'm a deep believer in them getting to school by themselves. Right. And then I Want to pick them up because I like to hear what's the chatter. Like, I've. I have these belief systems around independence and this. And even. It doesn't even matter if they're with their dad or not. Like, they come to my place in the morning and get ready for school and I make their lunches and then when they. And after school they come and stay at my place. So it's like I see them every. Pretty much every day. And I'm, uh. Because, uh. Because to me, like, part of the importance of parenting is those tiny in between moments where they're dealing with something from school or dealing with a belief system or dealing with something where it's like I wanna. I wanna be in that moment and, and that's how we've worked that out to like, it works for us. But like he. Because I do all of that watching, he pays for summer camps and he does. You know, there's these things that we. And he. He does these things and I do these things. So even though we are not together anymore, we have those discussions once a quarter, we sit down and we meet to like be on the same page about how we're raising the kids so that we don't say mean things about each other because we don't believe in the same kinds of. Some of the kind of parenting things. So, uh, it's like we still communicate even if, Even if we as partners, because that is like our kids growing up to feel like they're in a safe, strong environment where they learn to like, ask questions and be advocates for themselves, I feel like is part of the most important parenting gift we could give them.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my parents were divorced. Um, and I think regardless of whether or not you are in a marriage, you're together, you're separate. Um, when you are a parent to children, you have to work together with. These conversations have to happen. Like you just in an ideal world, in an amicable way because it's. You're still parenting these children together. And I always tell people, you know, uh, in a marriage in particular, you're never not going to be talking about these things. I think in an ideal world we wish we wouldn't have to talk about the calendar and the lunches and you know, like, that it would just be a great system. And I think that's amazing. But what I've learned is kind of to your point of like changing schools and life and your life is always changing. Your kids lives are always changing. Their activities change the schools change the homework changes the Friends change. And with that means you adapt. And so like, we are always reconnecting and saying like, okay, that was working in the spring, it's not working in the summer. So, like, what do we need to do to make it work now? Um, and so it's just a constant communication cycle that you really have to stick with. Otherwise I find that you can fall into those patterns of like, resentment, frustration, um, assumptions, expectations that are all unsaid. And that's never really very helpful.

Speaker B: Well, question for you. So, okay, your husband sounds extremely self aware and lovely because not all husbands go like, hey, you don't have to do that, or hey, what? You know, like, for a lot of the women, I would say they'll tell me like, I feel like I'm married to a fourth child or another child, right? I'm. Or they don't, they don't notice. I remember one of my friends, she just, she had a baby and she was calling me crying, and she's like, I'm just so angry. Um, you know, like, the dishes are there, this is there. And I was like, okay, what do you, what do you want? And she's like, and I wanted to do the dishes. And I was like, okay, well, you have like a six month old. Did you always do the dishes? She's like, yes, I always did the dishes, but now I have a baby, so he needs to do dishes. Did you tell him you want the dishes done? No, I just want him to see them there and do it. And I was like, have you ever told him you don't like the way he does it? Like, what's. Yeah, she's like, yeah, he always, He's a mess kind of thing. So I ended up doing it and I was like, so then do you think maybe he needs to be told it's okay if they're not perfect? I just want you to help me or something because you've created a dynamic. And, and it's interesting because I hear women all the time that they're like, I can't talk to my husband. I can't. Like we, we or he doesn't care or any of those things. Like, how do we start that conversation when the husband isn't the one who in. Who helps initiate? You know what I mean? Like, it sounds like you guys are pretty self aware, you know, like relatively regulated human beings. Yeah.

Speaker C: How does that work? We weren't always. Yeah, we weren't always.

Speaker B: I mean, that's good to know.

Speaker C: I think we were and we weren't. Right? Like, I always Tell people, if you looked at my husband on paper, you're like, great, great dad, great husband. How can I help? What do you want me to do? Tell me what to do. I'm right here. Like, I'll cook dinner. What should I make? Right? Um, he was always there to do stuff. If I said, can you wash the dishes? He would wash the dish. Like that. That wasn't the problem. What I find a lot of women struggle with is kind of being like the project manager being like, I have to tell him how to do it and then give feedback and then critique. And then it becomes this weird, uncomfortable dynamic between partners. And I think to what you're talking about. I think there are a lot of women who sit in this position where their partners get very defensive or they truly believe it's not their job, or they don't care about the standards. They're like, who cares if I fold the laundry all wrong? Or who cares if the dishes still have food on them? You know, whatever it might be. Um, and that's a tricky place to be in. What I will say is in order for these conversations to be productive, you really need a partner who is willing and able to have these conversations, who wants to show up to the table, who wants to build a happy, sustainable long term partnership where both people feel like they are supported. Like, you need that. And if you don't have that, these are really hard conversations to have because you can't drag somebody along, you can't force them to do these things. So it's tricky. What I will say though is I think if you can come to the table with a willing and able partner and assume good intent on both sides, defensiveness is kind of normal. Like I always tell people, the thing about defensiveness is you have to have the ability to move past it. To say, like, I'm getting defensive right now, but I'm still willing to listen to you. That doesn't mean I'm going to shut down. I will listen to you. I'm, um, going to. Because I think defensiveness is a very normal. Like when we get bad feedback at work, our first instinct is to, to defend ourselves and say, like, wait, hold on. Like, you gave me 10 deliverables. I couldn't make them all happen. Like, um, we, we have that desire to defend ourselves. I think that's normal. I think the question then becomes, what do we do after that? Like, how do we keep having this production conversation and how do we reframe it as you against him? Right? Because I think that happens a Lot and us against the overwhelming amount of work we have to tackle. Like, there's all this stuff that has to get done. How do we do that together as a team? So we both feel like it is fair. Right. And so it's hard because it takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of effort. It takes a lot of willingness to have hard conversations because these are hard conversations. Um, but I think that is part of it. It's like reframing who you're like instead of looking at your partner as the enemy. Because I think that's oftentimes what it feels like. It's like, oh my God, like I'm so angry. Why doesn't he see the dishes? Right? Like, why doesn't he care? I remember feeling that once my husband didn't empty the dishwasher and I was by myself with the kids and I thought, oh my God, he doesn't see me. Like he doesn't care at all. And he's like, that's not what happened. He's like, I was running late and I'm like, you. But I was like, but the impact of that, that's what it felt like to me. Right? Like that you just didn't care about me and you thought I was the person who would catch all the balls that you drop. And that's what it feels like. And you have to be willing to have those conversations with each other and trust that when you say that to them. Like my husband said, that was never my intention. I don't want to do that. So what do we do for like where do we go from here? How do we fix this dynamic? Um, and so you just have to have those tricky. You have to be willing to say to your partner, like, when you don't do this, this is how it makes me feel. And you have to trust that your partner is not going to blow you off. And unfortun, like for women who that is the case where their partner is unwilling, like, um, it's a separate conver. It's a different conversation. Like I think it's a different conversation you're having with yourself about what you want and what you are willing to kind of manage within a partnership.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well. And I see a lot of women who start, start businesses, um, or, or start moving into their owning their own space and there's a lot of self development that goes there and then they feel like they're starting to self develop and their partner isn't.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, it's funny, one of the things I'll. I'll tell them is I'll go, hey, they're, you know, go online or ask it like in our boss mom community, you know, some, some men or, or people that they could listen to and just make the suggestion of like them following on YouTube or Instagram, whatever, these couple people and then to just tell them how it makes them feel. Like not, not go listen to them and become a different person. But like just, yeah, hey, listen to this. Like, and, and then once they do that, that gets sucked into their algorithm. Their algorithm becomes like a self development algorithm. But it is interesting because I do think what I have seen is that women that, that go down this sort of self discovery journey and a lot of times business or content creation or something becomes that part man. You have to start going like, who do I, uh, what do I want to known as? Like, what am I willing to do on my own that is separate from my kids? Like, who do I want to be in this next version of myself? And what do I want to mirror for my, you know, a model for my kids. And a lot of times they'll look back and they'll be like, wow, my partner didn't, didn't do that same journey with me. Like, I'm like, you know, like, there's got to be something that I think you guys recognize that some growth together, not just the communication and how you manage the household, but like love is looking in the same direction. Like, how are you guys gonna kind of grow as people? And a lot of them don't, don't even ask. They just, they go down the self discovery journey and then they're like, why the hell aren't you coming with me on this? And they were like, I didn't, I didn't know, I didn't even know it was happening.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I also think like, women are kind of, uh, fed more narratives about self development, right? Like in the feeds, it's like how to be a good mom, right? How to do X, Y and Z, how to like, and, and women are more likely to go to therapy and like, do that kind of self work, like, and put that in and there's less stigma for us doing it, right? There's way less stigma. Like a lot of the men I know in my life, they're like, therapy's not for me. And I'm like, why? And it's like, it's just not for me. Like that's, that's often like, it's not for me. And I'm like, I've never met a woman who's like, therapy's not for me. They're all like, it's for me. It's hard, but it's for me. Um, and so I think there's that too, which is like, we can't ignore the societal conditioning that we have, which is that, like, men are not taught to be vulnerable and to be self aware or to feel those emotions in the way that we feel our emotions or like, which emotions are acceptable for men versus women. And I'm not saying that's right. I'm not saying it's a good excuse. I'm just saying, like, that is the way it goes. And so as long as society has kind of impacted us like that, we have to have some willingness. Like I hear from women all the time, like, how unfair that I have to teach my husband how to be a capable adult. How unfair is it that I have to push him into therapy? Totally, completely unfair. Ridiculous. I think it's the worst also. We get to choose. Is this the hard work I want to do? You can choose not to do that hard work. You can choose to leave that partnership, try to find somebody who's doing the work on their own. You can choose all of those things, or you can choose to do the work work. And it's up to you. Like, truly, it really is. Um, there's no right answer for me. Right. I thought the time and the, the investment in my partnership, in our marriage, in kind of having those conversations, kind of my husband doing some discovery on himself, me, on myself, that hard work over two, three years, the long term payoff was worth it for me. That's just how I felt about it. Like, it felt unfair. It sucked. I was resentful. I probably wasn't the nicest wife for a little while, but on the other side of it, it's worth it. So you just have to have that conversation with yourself.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's, it's funny you mentioned that because I, my partner is, um, you know, I'm in my mid-40s, I'm 45, and he's a little older than me. But it's so funny because anybody you meet in this age group has kids, is divorced. Right. And it's so funny because it's like I feel, I, I feel bad because our first marriages are what got us to get therapy. And then now we're much more like. I feel bad because I got a very mature, self aware human that his first wife did not get, like. And he recognizes that. Right. And I think a lot. And I am a m Like I. All the things that triggered me or things or whatever. Like ultimately my, my ex husband and I shouldn't have stayed married because we literally did not want the same things in life. Like, my version of what I wanted my life to become had. Was fundamentally, even locationally different than like what he wanted. And so. And now he's with somebody where it's like, it's exact. They're perfect for each other. And I'm like, really happy for that. And it's just funny because I look at it and I'm like, wow, it is, it, uh, like you hope that everybody listening that the catalyst for going and really doing the inner work, not just the self development of like, how do I make money, how do I do things, but the inner work of being like, why am I triggered? Why am I defensive? Like, why does that thing piss me off? Why do I feel like this is happening to me and I don't have control? Like you do that work that hopefully the catalyst isn't that you get a divorce. Like, the catalyst is that you just recognize like you guys did that, that there is value in that, like self reflection and the communication, even when those conversations are hard because it's way easier to have the hard conversation than to try to rebuild a life because, uh, you were unwilling to have those conversations or unwilling to recognize why those conversations felt so hard. Yeah.

Speaker C: And I think unfortunately in our society we know this, there's like a lot of lack of nuance, especially online. Like in the space that I'm in, there's. There's not a lot of room for nuance. Everything's very black and white. When I share any of these stories online, the top comments are, um, don't raise a grown man. Divorce, Immediate divorce. Right. Like, it's either suck it up, deal with it. It's always been like this. I remember my mom saying that at one point. Like, honey, it's always been like this. And I was like, I don't know that that's a good reason for it to stay like it though. And so like we get this narrative that it's like, suck it up. It's always been like this. It's always been hard. Right. That's just the way it is. That's how it is to be a mom. That's how it is to be a woman in the workforce. That's how it is to be in a marriage. Deal with it or leave, Quit your job, divorce your husband, whatever. Right. Don't have kids. And I truly believe there's somewhere in the Middle, like, there's a third option where it's like, uh, do it different. Do it differently. Like, it doesn't have to be divorce or suck it up. It can be change the dynamics, work together to change it. And same thing in motherhood, same thing at work. Like, I just think we're too black and white. And so when you're in the thick of it and you're like, okay, I've got two options here, right? I can leave, I can stay. And I actually don't think that's true.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, and I love that. And I think. I think for anything, whether you're losing weight or trying to, you know, put a kid in routine or, like, get your kids to change that dynamic in the home. Like, everything, you want it done tomorrow. But, man, if you're. If you're doing the little bits of work, you'd be amazed at how much your capacity grows. How things that used to feel really hard now don't seem like they're so hard anymore. Like, or the dynamic I have with my kids now, people, uh, will be like, oh, man, they're home all the time. I'm like, actually, like, one. My kids are an age that are just super fun, actually. My problem now is that they're so much fun to hang out with. I'm like, I'd rather hang out with you guys. But ultimately, like, there's these little things that I did in my life that now I'm a very healthy person. Like, doing things that keep me healthy. Don't feel hard. Like, they used to. Like, the dynamic I have with my kids and the way we discuss things, as opposed to, like, having these big upsets, like, doesn't feel hard. So I do think, like, and I'd love your thoughts on that, too, is like, the things five years ago or two years ago or a year ago that just felt like, are we ever going to get through this? This feels difficult. It's always going to be hard that doing the little increments of things, like, does build up to a different extent experience of your capacity for those things.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like a couple different things I always tell people. Like, people will always ask me, how long did it take to fix your marriage or to change things? And I'm like, well, I didn't, like, time it, but, like, if I really look from, like, when we started having the hard conversations to, like, when I felt like we came through it a year and a half, two years, I'm like, it was. It was long, and people are like, that feels so wrong. But I've been with my husband for 20 years. I'm like. To be honest, it feels like a blip to me. You and I were joking before we started this call that, like, wow, how was Covid six years ago? That's how I feel about it. It feels like a lifetime ago. And really, it was only three, four years ago. I'm like, it feels like a lifetime ago. I don't really. Like, I'm so far removed from it now. And at the time, it felt long and tedious and like, one baby step after the next, and two steps back, one step forward. Right? Like, and it just felt long and hard. Now it's. We don't even think about it. Like, it's not even a part of our lives in that way anymore because we've just been flex the muscle so much. That's just part of our daily life. And I think that's true of so many things, like you said. And I think also with kids, um, kids change everything. When you have kids, especially those early years of parenting, when you get your feet under you, I think that is really helpful. It's like, I can also recognize that I'm four years out from my last pregnancy, and I'm like, I'm in such a different phase of life now, and my kids are older and more independent, and I'm just like, everybody's like, what's it like? I'm like, I don't know. They're like, people. I don't know. They're people now, and they're not babies. And it just. There's phases of life that I think are incredibly difficult. And then there is still things that are difficult today. Not to say parenting is hard. Life is hard. It's always changing. But I can also recognize that some of my life being the way it is today is because I'm in a new phase of life, and it's. It's a different phase, and I'm finding it easier to walk through.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Even just the age part of, like, now my kids are old enough where my daughter and I will want to go to the mall or do something. Like, she likes going to the grocery store with me or those things. And I can leave my son at home, and I don't have the kids where they don't want to be together. Like, yeah, like, we used to joke that they're like, why don't we go on road trips? I'm like, you guys. You guys together in a car is what. And now we're getting to the age where they, like, they know how to negotiate. And I. Bartering is a very big part. So my daughter wants the front seat, but my son wants the whole backseat. And so they. They barter. They barter Candy. They barter time. They barter.

Speaker C: I love it.

Speaker B: Nice to each other. Like, it's just. It's funny because it, uh. Yes. Being 100, I tell people, like, I. I don't remember how hard it was when they were infants. I remember moments, but. And I remember. Not that I don't want to do it again. Like, yeah, like, two is enough for me, but I. I also remember, like. Like to tell everybody, you know, like, I'm going to give you time advice. And if you have an infant or a kid that's under three, just my. My time advice may not be relevant to you.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's okay. And it might. Who knows? I had a friend asked me this morning about, um, sleep, and I was like, uh, you know, the advice I would give is different than the advice that you need because my kids were good sleepers. So, like, I don't know. So, like, my experience of newborn is different than your experience of a newborn. And so I just think we also have to have capacity for that, which is like, obviously we all compare each other's lives to one another. It's hard not to. We compare salaries and babies and bodies, unfortunately. Um, but, uh, we're not living the same lives. They look very similar, but they're actually super different. And so when you have that compassion for yourself, to be like, I have a tough sleeper. My experience of the newborn phase is different than that person who's baby sleeping eight hours a night. Like, they're just different, and that's okay. And so she might be having an easier time than me, and that's okay. Maybe her toddler will be crazy, but who knows, right? Like, who knows?

Speaker B: I know. Yeah. My son was super easy. And then for eating and feeding and all that kind of stuff, and my daughter was in the nicu. She just had a hard time. We had a, uh, hard birth, and I told everybody. I was like, for six months, I was like, if she was an employee, I'd fire her. Like, she was. It was so hard. So hard. And it. Yeah. And I remember being like, my son was so easy. There was a little resentment there for how easy my son was. And I was like, this is a completely different experience. And then. And then there's been moments where I'm like, oh, my God, I love my daughter so much. And my son's kind of being a jerk face. And I'm like. And now I'm at this place where I actually. They're both fun and great, and I'm just now waiting for my son to go into middle school, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna. But I'm gonna change it. Because everybody tells me they're like, oh, wait till they're older and they're gonna suck. And they're gonna. I'm like, no, I'm gonna. I'm gonna not take your norm. I'm gonna not tell. Tell me, like, what everybody does when they're a teenager. Cause I was a fun teenager, and I had a great relationship with my parents.

Speaker C: I.

Speaker B: And I'm like, I'm not going to put that out into the universe just yet.

Speaker C: We'll see how it goes. Yeah. And, um, it will probably go well, hopefully. You know, I mean, I don't know. Like, I think there's phases and there's, uh. They say big kids, big problems. But I've also found, like, I know everybody hates that. Like, just wait. It gets harder. I'm like, just wait. It also always changes. Like, the hard that you have today is not gonna be the same hard tomorrow. And it's just always changing. And we just adapt and you just get better at it.

Speaker B: Yeah, well. And just like, the way you talked about the relationship with your partner, like, I deeply believe that if I can. Can have a relationship with my kids where they feel like they can be open and honest with me, that their emotions are okay, the conversation is okay. That it is always met with safety and love, and then we can have the discussion around what it means and what to do about that. If we do that, then, uh, then we can deal with whatever comes our way because they won't hide it from me. Like, that's. And if that's the only thing I do, then we can have whatever hard conversation it is, but they won't go to somebody else who's going to get to decide what they believe or what they do. They'll come to me. And I'd rather have the difficulty of figuring out what to do at that moment than just find out reactively after.

Speaker C: Totally. Yeah. I always tell people my goal as a mom is for my kids to want to ride in my car. Like, I want them to want to be with me. I want them to want to come home and visit me when they're at college. Like, I just want them to want to come back. Right. Like, and so, like, whatever. And not in the way That I don't.

Speaker B: For you to want them to come back.

Speaker C: Yes. Uh, and it's so funny because I'm very strict. Like, I. I'm very regimented, and I have a lot of systems. I'm strict. But I'm also, like, I want you to know that. Like, that is what I want. So I'm trying to create that environment. Like, I asked my son what he wanted for his birthday. A party, a friend day, or a family day. And he picked family. And I was like, oh, we're doing it. I was like, he picked family day, and there was a lot of fighting. He was like, why is every fighting, though? I'm like, cause all four of you are here. I don't know. We can't avoid it. But, like, you know, we're working on it.

Speaker B: It's totally true.

Speaker A: I know.

Speaker B: Okay. We could have talked about so much. We didn't even get into the money, but so maybe Fairfair will bring you back in the fall. We can have a whole money conversation because there's so much to unpack there. Unpack there. Um, okay, so where can everybody go and find you more?

Speaker C: Yes, you can find me on all social media at She's a Paige Turner. So Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook. I also have a substack under at she's a page turner called Lessons Learned. Um, I have a website you can check out. She's a page turner dot com, so you can find me pretty much everywhere. I also have a podcast called Justice Girls where I chat to my good friends. And, yeah, you can find me all over.

Speaker B: Oh, I absolutely love it. Well, we hurt your face, and thank you for everything you're doing, because actually, just saying things out loud and being okay with people not agreeing with you and that kind of thing, like, really is, I believe, one of the biggest first steps for moms. Um, the more we feel empowered to simply say out loud what we feel like we need to say. Um, I think is the. Is the number one step to figuring out who we are and what we want and. And being more. And being an advocate for ourselves and for our kids. So I love that you're doing that. So thank you for all of you.

Speaker A: That wraps up this episode of the Boss mom podcast. These conversations are so much fun.

Speaker B: I absolutely love it.

Speaker A: Now I just got this chair, and it's super squeaky, and now I feel like every time I move, I'm squeaking in this chair when I'm recording things. So I don't know if you can hear it, but if you can.

Speaker B: I'm sorry, because I'm not going to edit it out.

Speaker A: Okay, here's what I need you to do. Here's what I need you to do. Number one, you got to come into the Boss mom community.

Speaker B: You got to. You got to come into the Boss mom community because that's where these. All these conversations end up happening.

Speaker A: That's where so much goodness happens. Um, and it's. It's not on social media, it's off social media. So it's in our own sacred little safe space. Go to bossmom.com community, number one. Number two, these episodes are good, right? Like, I feel like Boss mom is doing good. We've got great guests. We're having great conversations. We can tell by the numbers that you like it.

Speaker B: Uh, so go give us a review.

Speaker A: Please, please, please, please, please. I know you don't have time. I know you're a million places, but in the midst of driving your kids to every summer camp and to play dates and to the million things, uh, I'm right there with you. Leave a review. I beg of you. I beg of you. We've, like, haven't even tapped 400 reviews. And for the 80,000 plus downloads a month that we get watching you guys listen to this podcast. Like, we can see you're listening, so I know you're listening. Leave us a review. Go do it. I hurt your face. In fact, leave us a review and then email me@danabossmom.com and just tell me

Speaker B: I left you review, and I will

Speaker A: send you a personal thank you. Right, A personal thank you. Because I really want that number to be bigger.

Speaker B: Okay. And third. Third, Third, third, third. Go follow Paige. Go follow Paige. Like, just go follow her because she's fun to watch.

Speaker A: It's so interesting. I. I love the topics that she talks about that you maybe agree or don't agree with, but I love having this conversation. It's. It's really, really fun. So go hang out with her at. She's a Paige Turner on Instagram, and Paige is spelled like her name, so she is a Paige P, A, I, G, E Turner. Uh, go hang out with her. The. The links and everything are also in our show notes. You can check them out there. And then we've got so many guests, good guests, uh, this whole season, I'm super excited about it. So, um, make sure you subscribed. Wherever you're at, come hang out and, uh, I'm super pumped to have you here.