252: Digital Mavericks & the Future of Web3 with Debbie Soon

Speaker A: The Blockchain show is a podcast that

Speaker B: demystifies cryptocurrencies and distributed ledger technology. Welcome back to the Blockchain Show. Today we have a fascinating conversation with Debbie soon, an Investor, entrepreneur and Web3 expert who's been at the forefront of blockchain innovation, digital art, and creator empowerment. Debbie co founded hug, a platform that helped tens of thousands of artists monetize their work through crypto, and recently led its successful acquisition. She's also the author of Digital Mavericks, a book that dives into the evolving world of blockchain, NFTs and AI, uh, exploring how these technologies are reshaping industries and creating new opportunities for creators. In this episode, Debbie shares her journey from traditional finance to the crypto space, what it means to be a digital maverick, and how blockchain is revolutionizing the art world. We also discuss the intersection of AI and Web3, the role of regulation in crypto's future, and how creators can find their purpose in this rapidly evolving landscape. So whether you're new to blockchain or already deep in the space, this conversation is packed with valuable insights. Debbie soon, welcome to the Blockchain Show. Thank you for joining me today.

Speaker A: It's my pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of interesting things happening in the world right now, but I, I suppose maybe the best way to get started here. If you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit about yourself and briefly bringing us up to speed onto, uh, how you got into the space.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, uh, my name is Debbie. Uh, I'm Singapore born and raised. Uh, kind of actually started my career as a investor in the traditional finance space. Spent about seven years kind of investing in consumer and consumer tech companies before kind of transitioning into the world of live sports. Um, and then somehow through all of that, um, moving from Singapore to the US really started developing, um, a love for crypto. And I think a lot of that was kind of fueled by the need to meet and connect with people during the pandemic. Uh, so, you know, I've been actively involved in the crypto space over the past, um, four to five years. Uh, I have, um, you know, overspent the past three years kind of, uh, building a company called Hug with my co founder, Randy Zuckerberg. Uh, that company just recently got acquired by the domain registry. Uh, but, yeah, we've been, um, using, through that company, we have empowered tens of thousands of creators, brought them on chain, um, showed them kind of like the power of crypto in order to monetize their work in new and different ways. Uh, and I've also had the pleasure of working very, very closely with a lot of these artists, fellow founders, uh, and I capture a lot of their stories in my book that I recently published called Digital Mavericks.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's wonderful. What an incredible endeavor it is to write a book. I don't think people realize just how difficult that is. Could you maybe tell us a little bit about when you decided you wanted to write, maybe for those who are interested in finding and reading the book, what they can expect to learn?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think writing the book Odyssey kind of caves so just, um, came totally by chance. So, um, when I first really kind of started being active in crypto around, um, 2021, um, like, to be honest, didn't really know much. I was just here to show up as a community participant, as a community member. Uh, I just wanted to, um, kind of document and share my learnings publicly. Just felt like the best way to hold myself accountable. Uh, so I started a Twitter now X account, um, from scratch. Basically just started posting and sharing a lot of my thoughts there. Uh, I guess that started getting quite a bit of traction in 2022 or so. Uh, and I actually got approached by my, uh, publisher, Wiley, um, during that period asking if I had ever thought of writing a book. And the answer was no. Uh, and it so happened that, um, we were in the middle of doing a fundraise for hug at a time, so I kind of turned down the opportunity. Um, but I guess like 6 months later I was like, oh man, I feel like I'll be remiss to not give that a go. And so I reached back out, uh, of whether to see if writing a book would still be an option. And I guess my perspective on writing it was to come from a place of really focusing on the stories. Because I feel like the biggest thing that I have taken away, aside from how exciting, uh, the technology is, uh, it's really all of the connections that have been formed. And so I know there's a lot of books out there that kind of go into detail on, you know, what is the blockchain and what blockchain can do. And I just felt like I don't really come from a technical background, but what I'm really good at and what I'm really passionate about is storytelling. And so the book is really a 50% guide on, you know, how to get into crypto if you, Even if you have no idea what it is today. And showing that it is a place for everyone. And the other half of it is really focused on the beautiful stories of, like I mentioned, artists, uh, founders, um, investors, people who, you know, um, pretty much led lives like each and every one of us, but along their journey discovered something that really resonated with them and as a result, are carving their path in this space.

Speaker B: Yeah, very good. I like that term, digital maverick. For some people, you know, they may read about it and think, well, why can't I do that? So if you wouldn't mind explaining a little bit more, like, what does it mean to be a digital maverick? Why that's important in today's digital landscape?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, my perspective of being a digital maverick doesn't mean that you have to be first. Um, it doesn't even necessarily mean that you have to be, um, maybe in some sense you have to be a little bit early, but I think early is relative. Uh, my definition of someone who is a digital maverick is someone who is willing to take some level of risks, who is willing to, you know, play an active role in this increasingly digital economy and world that we live in, even if the rules have not really clearly been set, or even if the technology continues to evolve. So, you know, I feel like the people that I've spoken to, obviously there are people that have been in the space for a really long time, call it, you know, over 10 years, there are people that have, you know, similarly to me, really started diving in only in the past kind of four years. And I still feel like someone who doesn't know what crypto is today could also kind of take their mark as a digital maverick. And a lot of the times I, I want to get people to think about what is it about this Internet world or this Internet revolution that they want to be a part of, like, why are they interested in, uh, you know, playing a role? And I always kind of joke about how, you know, there are many different ways to make an impact on the world. Right. We could try and solve climate change, we could try and look for a cure for cancer. Um, you know, obviously there are, ah, other ways, but at the same time, uh, there is such a great movement going on here where if you want to be a part of this kind of new Internet, if you want to play a role in shaping it, we are early enough where somebody could jump in right now in 2025 and really leave their mark on it over the next several years.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's very, um, inspiring, encouraging. When you talk about a Web3 toolkit that's something that, when I think about people new to the space kind of getting their head around it, I guess maybe you could expand or explain that to us. What are three essential skills or tools someone needs to navigate this space?

Speaker A: Yeah, and it's funny, I think that chapter in my book where it's kind of like, uh, what do you need to get started? And I already prefaced that chapter. I knew that as I was writing it this would probably be the very first chapter that would be outdated. And that's always the challenge, I think about writing a book about um, any kind of topic in emerging tech just because, uh, it evolves so quickly. There's news coming out every single day. And obviously if you are publishing traditionally there is like a, uh, time to print time from submitting a final manuscript to it actually being on the shelves. Uh, but yeah, I felt like when I wrote that piece I was, oh, okay. You need to obviously find some way of acquiring crypto which would be through a centralized exchange like a Coinbase or a Binance or a Kraken, depending on which country you're in. So that, uh, you know, for the most part I believe that doesn't change though. Increasingly there are more ways to really easily acquire crypto. You can, um, purchase crypto via credit card, uh, through, you know, various infrastructure providers like Moonpay for example. So even that in itself, uh, doesn't seem like um, you know, a must have. And then, uh, you know, I remember even then, you know, I'm talking about self custodial wallets where in the past, you know, and I wrote this, uh, I wrote this kind of through 2023 into 2024, you needed to write down these unwieldy seed phrases in order to really self custody. And I mean that means having full ownership over your assets. And these days there's a lot of other wallet infrastructure providers that makes it easy for you to set up a wallet and not necessarily needing to know how it works. So uh, I always say that that bit was, and I was hoping for it to be the first to be outdated. Um, but in terms of kind of where we're at today, it's easier than ever honestly to kind of participate in um, the on chain economy. And when I say on chain, it's just that it's similar to thinking about, you know, several years ago when people started getting access to the Internet, more and more people started going online. And today it's just that more and more people are going on chain. So you know, with onchain being the new Online. And so it is easier than ever. There are a lot of consumers friendly applications out there. Whether you're looking for games, whether you're looking for um, you know, media sharing platforms, whether you're looking for social, um, networks, uh, whether you're looking for like banking platforms, uh, it is just so much easier today that, where you can sign up in a really familiar process, you know, through email and password, but you're actually already kind of participating um, and owning assets, um, on the blockchain.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's excellent. And I feel like you do a really good job explaining this space. Something that comes up a lot when I speak to people new to NFTs, for example. There's just a lot of misconceptions about it. I was wondering if you could share some common misconceptions with our listeners, not only about NFTs, but Web3 or anything that you feel like kind of needs to be cleared up.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, I guess a couple of things. I feel like headlines are meant to drive clicks. Uh, you know, there are a lot of headlines out there that clickbait and very much associate crypto with the concept of scams. Or you know, all crypto is scam. Like it's fake Internet money and all of that. I feel like I always have to remind people that scams are happening everywhere. I believe people are still getting scammed by email phishing. Um, you know, maybe they're a little bit more sophisticated than the email from a Nigerian prince. But uh, there's still phishing scams going on. There's still identity identity theft happening. There's still uh, people trying to call you and get you to share your passwords. There's people trying to trick you by selling you fake tickets. There are scams everywhere. Right. So um, just to kind of label crypto equals scam I feel is probably the biggest um, public misconception and that it just feels it's just something that, you know, media outlets feel like, oh, it's going to get people really riled up about something that they don't really understand. So um, I would say that's the first thing that, you know, crypto, just like anything else in life, you have to be careful if it's something that sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Uh, so that's one thing. Second, um, I know you mentioned NFTs and it doesn't necessarily have to relate to that, but um, you know, I feel the industry probably did a pretty bad job in terms of kind of craving NFTs as if it is it's own market when really it is just a foundational technology. Um, and another analogy that I like to use is for those of us who were around back in the day, and we used to download MP3s illegally through Napster and Limewire. And back then the vernacular was very much like, oh, what MP3s did you download? What MP3s are you listening to? Um, in reality, MP3s are just a file format and it was really what kind of music are you listening to? And so, you know, NFTs are kind of similar in that sense that um, you know, there is this, you know, through bad communication or bad storytelling, uh, or otherwise people kind of bucket NFTs, which is a foundational technology, into a single term, when in reality it is just a way of, you know, tokenizing or a way of representing ownership of something digitally and on the blockchain. So what I mean by that is that your tickets could uh, be NFTs, right? So right now, um, you know, if you've been to a concert recently or any kind of event, and you use Ticketmaster, those are digital tickets, right? Hardly anybody kind of carries physical tickets to get scanned. It's just that they're owned by, you know, if Ticketmaster goes down, there's no way that you can kind of prove that you own those tickets. Um, but we could similarly take those tickets, ah, put them on chain, they become an nft and you can prove, um, you know, irrefutably that those tickets are yours. Uh, similarly, um, the California DMV has started putting title deeds, car title deeds on chain. And those car title deeds are essentially NFTs as well. So uh, again, they're not NFTs, they're just, you're not going to call them car title deed NFTs, they're just your car title deeds. Um, the only difference is in the way that they're being recorded. So um, I think those are kind of like those two common misconceptions. I feel like over time, um, a lot of the technology, a lot of these like fancy terms are going to be abstracted away. Similarly, uh, to how we don't really think too much about things being on the cloud anymore. It's almost like a sudden kind of expectation that, that it is and it's available, you know, through the Internet.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, that's, that's fascinating because I live in California, so hopefully they can figure, uh, out how to just eliminate needing to go to the DMV soon.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, I would love that too.

Speaker B: You know something I really like in your book is, uh, the idea of inclusivity. And I really like that about blockchain in general is it doesn't really matter who you are, where you come from, what you look like. It's just code. You know, there are still some barriers for people, uh, you know, who are creators just in general. You know, it's not easy to get your creations out to the world. And then once you put in the work and you're ready to share it with the world, maybe you could share some of the barriers that people do face, um, specifically if they're underrepresented in Web3. And how can we address that? How can we, um, help them to succeed?

Speaker A: I would say in general, yes, I do feel like the blockchain has opened up a lot of opportunities for creators, um, all over the world. The ability to even accept payments through stablecoins, so say in usdc, um, versus local, uh, currency is especially vital for countries in which they're experiencing really high inflation. Um, so definitely the step in the right direction towards uh, a more open and inclusive, uh, both financial and creator economy. I think naturally there are still issues of diversity, uh, equity and inclusion in the space as there is these, uh, systemic issues that don't really get resolved, um, overnight. Um, and I think in today's day and age sometimes it seems like DEI is almost like a bad word and it's like we are not allowed to talk about it. Um, but what I've personally seen is that, um, again, just like how getting access to an Internet connection has opened up a lot of the world to people who may not have known about it before, um, kind of going further in that direction going into Web three, I think opens new forms of monetization that creators had previously not been able to access. So, um, you know, I think for the longest time we have all been posting and sharing our content on Instagram or on Twitter or on, you know, all of these different platforms, all for free. And you know that famous documentary where, um, you know, it says that if you're not paying for the product, it means that you're the product and you know, we're essentially being monetized. Like whatever we're contributing to the platform is actually being monetized. Um, and you know, I've seen different models that obviously are still evolving where, uh, you know, like platforms like Zora or Rodeo, for example, people can share their creations and you know, maybe for now they are getting, you know, quite a couple of dollars or, you know, $5 or something for posting a piece of content. But the alternative is that they would have posted it on Instagram for free anyway. So why not, you know, kind of see what models are available to, to you, especially if you are an artist, if you are a content creator and kind of exploring of different um, methods of you know, sharing your, your work with the world and ah. And so, so yeah, like I think that what this has done has just really been able to level the playing field in some sense. Um, not entirely. You uh, know, there's still a lot of work to go and there's still a lot of systemic kind of biases, um, inherent in crypto as is it's still very male dominated industry, you know, and that's just gender on one, um, part of it. Uh, but you know, definitely kind of a step in the right direction in terms of the opportunities that we're offering to people.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's super important. Do you have any examples of like an artist or entrepreneur who's found financial freedom in this space?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, I cover a whole bunch of them in my book too. Uh, you know, there is an AI collaborative artist called Claire Silver, you know, who was unfortunately, uh, diagnosed with a chronic condition earlier in her life and through um, you know, I think this is, you know, a story about both AI and the blockchain. But you know, was able to work collaboratively with AI to create you know, stunning pieces of work that uh, you know, is, that is also on in the permanent collection of the lacma has been sold at Sotheby's and Christie's. And she has been able to make a mark for herself in terms of being a really renowned artist. And you know, now she's a full time artist bringing um, her work all around the world. Uh, but yes, several, several stories like that. Um, you know, even uh, one of the artists in um, that I cover in my book, his name is Food Masku. He uh, makes food masks and you know, um, he makes masks out of food and puts them on his face and uh, you know, and then takes photographs of them. So it's actually really an analog, it's an analog piece um, of art. Right. Like it's actual physical, tangible items that he's putting on his face and then taking a photo of it. And that photo then happens to be a digital photo but people are buying and you know, collecting his work on chain. So again as a way for him to kind of monetize his work. Whereas in the past what would have happened was that people would kind of steal his concepts or repost his work without permission. And they are getting a whole bunch of impressions. Uh, you know, they're getting paid out, um, you know, paid out by TikTok and everything. Meanwhile, uh, like audiences of that content don't have to full context or don't really understand like what he is trying to say as an artist. Uh, so, you know, definitely, you know, plenty of stories. Uh, again, I want to be clear that it's not that, um, being on being on chain or selling your work as NFTs as mutually exclusive to, you know, other ways of monetization. I think I've always looked at being on chain as one of many different ways and a way to kind of diversify one's revenue streams. So like, um, whether you're a writer, whether you're a painter, whether you're a photographer, or whether you're just any kind of like, you know, content creator that, you know, posts like memes and everything, um, you know, exploring how the blockchain could be additive to, um, your revenue, could be additive to your community, could be additive to your audience, uh, is something that, you know, I definitely think is worth exploring.

Speaker B: Yeah, my first thought was like, it'd be great if there was almost like a, a way for creators to, to kind of like route all of their content through an NFT and distribute it out to like the various, like TikToks, Instagram, stuff like that. I don't really know how TikTok works. Like, I don't know how people are making money on it, but it'd be really cool, you know, like, you know, if they were to make money. It goes to this address. It's all on chain and. Cause I think a lot about how to like, monetize things like this podcast, which I have failed epically at, uh, making any money on this show in like eight years. But it's more like a thought process of like, you know, how can you set up micro transactions, how can you send out extra content that's not available to regular people? Or like when you mentioned like a book, if you want to do a second edition, how can you push that, that updated book to someone? There's just like an endless amount of possibilities once things are digital. I guess what I'm trying to say is like, I think the future is going to be really cool for people who are tech savvy and like, you know, just the possibilities. I'm sorry for just rambling there.

Speaker A: No, no, not at all. And I mean, I think there, I mean there are ways that uh, people are launching podcasts on chain and putting it, um, you know, making it available for people to collect. So, um, yeah, there are definitely a couple of podcasts that are doing that already. And again, like, you know, jury's still out obviously, as to like, how much revenue that could create a sustain. Um, but I think just one way of thinking about it is that, you know, rather than kind of, you know, the traditional kind of monetization model for podcasts is obviously through, you know, advertising and brands. Um, but, you know, there is an obvious inefficiency there from like, you know, even if you had like a whole bunch of listeners, um, you know, not every single listener is going to convert into, um, kind of a buy of that brand. And obviously there is kind of that intermediary. And you as a content creator are not actually kind of monetizing from people that are listening to your, um, content in the first place. And they probably don't even want ads. Right. Like, you know, I'm sure there are, like, ways to get around, like, having to listen to ads and podcasts. Um, and so, you know, I think what the blockchain offers, uh, is a way, is an easier way for, you know, um, content creators, whether you're a podcast, um, host or what are your writers, to have people really collect your work because they really like it, um, and, you know, really build a direct connection with that audience. And you know, we always talk about that thousand true fans, um, and whether we can kind of get to that. And obviously what it does on chain is just that facilitating that, you know, micro transactions is now easier than ever. Um, and, you know, that again, in the beginning it could be just sense, but, you know, over time it's exciting to think about how that could continue to evolve.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's really good. Yeah, Again, a lot of great possibilities brings me to the point of, like, navigating what's to come. I don't know if you have any, Anything you'd like to share about people finding their momentum in blockchain. What's going to come next?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, I mean, I think one thing that, you know, I will always just kind of advise someone who's like, probably new to the space is just kind of figuring out like, what your why is and, um, exactly what gets you excited about, um, you know, being on the blockchain. And again, it could just be being part of something early and, you know, like, just being more knowledgeable than the rest of the people at the dinner table. Uh, it could very much be, you know, kind of exploring and experimenting with new monetization models like we just talked about as a creator. Um, it could be about like, um, you know, just kind of meeting different folks who, um, you know, have a whole wide range of perspectives in terms of, you know, what they are seeing and what you're interacting with every day. Uh, you know, I personally feel like I don't really want to be left behind and I would rather be, um, one of the first and the earliest to the table. And so, um, I think that's what has kind of kept me really, um, kind of focused in the space and learning and experimenting and also recognizing that, to be honest, a lot of people here, um, are figuring things out as they go along. That's what happens when you're early in an industry, um, and there's still a lot of room for infrastructure and technology to catch up. But increasingly, I think we're getting to that point. Um, so. So, yeah, I feel, um, you know, I think if there's anything that I want people to take away from this conversation is to not necessarily be put off by, um, just the term crypto. I know it just comes with a lot of, like, negative connotations as is. But again, if there are ways that you feel like you can participate, you don't have to be a developer. I'm not technical at all. Um, you know, you could, you know, really just kind of dive in and, you know, get your feet wet.

Speaker B: You know, we were talking about in the future, surviving what's next to come. I think AI is pretty big on people's minds. Last year or two, regulation, we've got, uh, pretty crazy government going on in this country. What trends do you think people should pay attention to?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, definitely. I mean, so AI is here to stay, whether we like it or not. I know that in itself is another controversial topic that a lot of people feel strongly about in one way or the other. But, um, I think clearly it's, you know, it's just only getting more and more powerful. Um, and so similar to what I tell people about crypto is that, um, you could either choose to fight it or resist it, or you could learn how to work better with it and better your. Make it a part of your life, um, and be more productive or however way you want to use it. Um, definitely AI is something to look out for. Um, I think we are seeing this emergence of what people call AI agents where these, uh, um, AI operated agents that are acting autonomously and they have wallets, um, you know, which crypto allows them to do where so they are able to handle transactions on your behalf. So I um, know someone who has built basically like an AI bot or AI powered bot that like, you know, tries to optimize a sports, sports bets, you know, every single day. Um, so that's pretty interesting. Um, you know, obviously some of these use cases are still a little speculative in nature. Uh, but it'll be interesting to kind of see what happens when um, you know, people start leaning into um, you know, what I could do. Uh, the other thing that I always like to say about AI is that um, recently with ChatGPT launching its kind of image generation, um, people creating all these Studio Ghibli um recreations of themselves, uh, and there is talk of this is so unethical where none of these um, all these images are being um, created and I think goes back to the original creator, um, Miyazaki san, who is behind Studio Ghibli. Um, and so I think obviously that in itself is potentially a gray area, but blockchain and being able to register and acknowledge where the origination of the IP is allows for us to track where that came from. Um, obviously we require a lot of work to register all existing IP onto the blockchain. So that's some stuff to figure out there. But imagine a world where if his IP will was kind of registered on the blockchain and there were AI models that were trained on that. Um, there is a way to prove um, I guess they call it provenance. Um, but there is a way to prove um, where that AI model, um, has learned from. And there could be a world where every time an image is generated, um, it gives back micro royalty payments to the original creator behind that. So um, a lot of concerns that people have about AI can uh, actually be solved by blockchain. Um, so I'm excited to kind of see how that um, how that evolves. Um, and then I guess the other thing to obviously look out for. Yeah, we live in a very interesting regulatory environment right now. Definitely much more pro crypto than a previous administration. You know, I think the specifics are still um, a little vague here. Uh, but you know, I think the good thing at least is that it is creating an environment that fosters innovation, um, and little less ambiguity about what is legal and what isn't. So it'll uh, be interesting to kind of see what founders and builders and operators decide to do with that.

Speaker B: Yeah, man, that is so interesting. Just in closing, you know, what's next for you, um, any exciting projects on the horizon and also if you Wouldn't mind telling us where people can get a copy of your book, Digital Mavericks.

Speaker A: Absolutely. So, yeah, um, yeah, I guess, you know, spent the past few years building a company and sold it. So I think, um, you know, every, like, kind of the full circle moment for our founder, uh, definitely kind of exploring my next opportunity. So excited about what's on the horizon. Um, in the meantime, continuing to write and publish outside of my book just to kind of keep that habit going. Um, I've been using a lot of AI too, to, um, what they call bytecoding. So I've been like, building my own apps without honestly any knowledge of developer tools whatsoever. Again, um, that's what AI is here for, to kind of equip people with the skills that they didn't necessarily have. Um, so, you know, I built my own app on it. I have a little idea that I want to work on, um, that, um, we'll see if it comes to fruition or not. Uh, but yeah, otherwise, if you would like to get a copy of my book, it's called Digital Mavericks. It's available on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Um, I also publish, um, biweekly, I guess, to my publication. I publish it on chain, um, to a platform called Paragraph. Um, and you can find my writings there on paragraph.com eddevie. Um, but, yeah, awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'll definitely be checking that out. Thank you so much, Debbie. This was great. I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us today.

Speaker A: Of course. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker B: Okay. That was such a great conversation with Debbie. Soon. I really appreciate her insights on how blockchain and AI are transforming the creator economy. And I love how she encourages people to carve their own path in the web3 space, no matter their background or experience level. If you want to dive deeper into Debbie's work, please be sure to check out her new book, Digital Mavericks, and follow her writing@paragraph.com Eddebie where she shares her thoughts on Web3 digital art and innovation. Thank you for tuning into the Blockchain show. If you enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share with anyone who might find it valuable. I'll catch you on the next one.