How Revenue Marketing Makes the CMO a Business Growth Driver

Speaker A: Corey, I never thought we'd be sitting here in 2026 and the need for revenue, marketing and marketing being able to show up, uh, the way they should be showing up as part of the revenue equation. I never thought we would still be struggling with that. I would say this if you're a CEO or if you're a cfo, and for most industries, if you're not thinking about marketing as part of your revenue team, you need to be fired because you are not doing your fiduciary respons, which is to maximize all of your resources to create shareholder value.

Speaker B: Uh, you're listening to the B2B revenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two.

Speaker A: Uh, one.

Speaker C: Hello everyone and welcome to the B2B Revenue Executive Experience. I'm your host, Corey, and today I'm talking to Dr. Debbie Gaigh. She's a leading expert in B2B revenue marketing and marketing ops. She is also the partner and co owner of the Petowitz Group, a marketing transformation firm serving enterprise clients. Dr. Debbie is also the author of the award winning book Rise of the Revenue Marketer and she was named one of the 50 most influential people in sales lead management and has also won SLMA's top 20 women to watch distinction. Debbie, welcome to the show.

Speaker A: Thank you, Corey. It's so pleasure to be here. And you, uh, have such a great voice. I don't even know how I'm going to talk to you today. You have a wonderful radio voice.

Speaker C: Well, thank you, thank you. I appreciate it. I'm turning the focus back on you. I want to start with your journey to help the audience get to know you a little bit better. So what I love to do with every guest is go way back. You know, when you're first entering the workforce, like, where was your mind at? Uh, talk us through. You were at Auburn University. You're studying Spanish, French and Italian. Had your sights set on international business. Was marketing always the plan or did you find yourself kind of roped into it, like all of a.

Speaker A: Marketing was never the plan, ever. It was never on my radar. When I was in college, I fell into my first job in sales. I was hired as a commodities broker from Merrill lynch, was the only female broker they had. I basically, in the interview the next day, I heard from a friend of mine that the guy that interviewed me said that I, uh, was just so aggressive. He wasn't sure how I would work there. And she asked him, if it was a man, would you like that aggression? And he said yes. And that's how I got hired. So my first job out of college was nine years at Merrill lynch, full time commodities broker. And it would have to be in a bar, two martinis in for me to tell you all the stories because there was quite a. It was just a different day, let's just put it that way. And it was very fast and it was high pressure and there was constant change.

Speaker C: Fair enough. And I'm sensing that your time there kind of laid some of the foundational ideas that we're going to get into later on. Because before the podcast we were talking about leadership under pressure. And so I'm sure there are going to be some great anecdotes there. Um, so moving forward though, you know, you settle into marketing, um, you've built an impressive career there. And, you know, you're credited with pioneering a lot of the marketing concepts that we think of as pretty transformational. Like the concept of revenue marketing, for instance. So how would you yourself define revenue marketing?

Speaker A: It's so simple. It's transforming marketing from a cost center to a revenue center. It is nothing more than that. I have used that definition since I created the term revenue marketing around 2011. And for me, it just always made sense. I came into marketing one day, I woke up and I had a job as a cmo. And it was the first time that I was not a bag carrier. It was the first time I was not running a sales team. It was an equity play for me, right, to go to work for this company. And, uh, my CEO comes into the office one day and he looks at me and he says, debbie, and this is like 2003. He says, uh, what are you going to do about revenue? And I just looked at him and I said, uh, Rusty says, uh, cmo on the door. You know, that's back in the day when we went to the office and had offices with doors. And, uh, I said, it says, uh, cmo. I said, you didn't hire me to run sales. And he said, yes. He said, but given your background, let's see what we can do. And I began to research and I, uh, ran across this little company called Eloqua. And the minute I saw a demonstration of it, you know, you've had those times in your career, Corey, where you had a sea change underneath your feet and you can remember everything about the meeting. I can remember who was in the room, I can remember everything about it because I knew that once I saw that technology, this idea of sales and marketing becoming a revenue team was going to become true. So we bought Salesforce that year, we bought Eloqua that year, and again, I was customer 12. And we actually wound up saving the company that year through the work that we were able to do. And again, that was way back in 2003. So coming in with an understanding of sales, a love and a passion for sales, this just made sense. Then add to that the explosion of the technology that enables marketing to have that impact on revenue. So through the years, you know, what I saw coming to fruition in 2003, 2004, you know, it just became, you know, the way the world works now, especially if you're a B2B marketer. There are very few B2B marketers who do not have some kind of quota at various levels of the marketing organization. So it just always made sense to me. If you think about the way our world has changed, it's not just about a salesperson cold calling. There's the digital body language, the digital footprint, you know, everything that we know. And again, these were brand new concepts back in the day and now they are common. But to me, it just always made perfect sense.

Speaker C: No, I think it makes a lot of sense. And I think it's telling that you're talking about this shift in 2003 and I'm thinking four or five, uh, CFOs that I might name who can think of marketing still as a cost center.

Speaker A: I'm going to tell you, Corey, I never thought we'd be sitting here in 2026 and the need for revenue, marketing and marketing being able to show up the way they should be showing up as part of the revenue equation. I never thought we would still be struggling with that. Lots of reasons for that. That would be a different podcast. But yeah, but a lot of companies are doing it and they are doing it very well. I would say this if you're a CEO or if you're a cfo. And for most industries, if you're not thinking about marketing as part of your revenue team, you need to be fired because you are not doing your fiduciary responsibility, which is to maximize all of your resources to create shareholder value. So I would just put that out there for any executive who thinks that marketing is the make it pretty department and the call center.

Speaker C: Yeah. So let's dive into marketing leadership a little bit more. I was intrigued, Debbie, on your LinkedIn a few days Back I saw a post about, uh, about the cmo, and I believe you said something along the lines of, you know, here's what I'm hearing from CMOs. Not in the surveys we send out, you know, not in the group discussions every dinner, but privately, one on one. And it was along the lines of, there's no safe place to turn. And that stuck with me because I'm thinking, huh, I think there's something to that, right? What are you going to do? Are you going to ask questions to the CEO? No. You're supposed to have all the answers, right? Are you going to go to your team? Are they going to trust you? Are you going to look as credible after that? Are you going to go to your colleagues? We're going to talk a lot about sales and marketing and how we can be in lockstep. But half the time, you know, those leadership status meetings between sales and marketing, uh, it winds up being more something akin to like an HBO miniseries than actually update, right? They're just jockeying for position the whole time. I think you ended on something like everyone needs a coach. What do you mean by that in terms of, you know, really coaching CMOs? And I think what are the big top, uh, level skills that they're really lacking right now that you see?

Speaker A: Great question. And it comes to the crux of, uh, what I want to say in this podcast, and that is our revenue leaders, our marketing leaders, are not trained to be successful in the world that we live in. Let me give you an example. We are now calling this the age of overwhelm. We are always connected. Things are moving very, very fast. We work from home. There's 10,000 things coming down on us at one time. The pace of technology and the connectedness and how we're always on is at a fever pitch. And Corey, that is going to continue. Microsoft calls it the infinite workday. The workday that never ends. But at the end of it, we are all overwhelmed because, and we were talking about this before the broadcast started. Biologically, our brain is not yet evolved to work in this always on world that we live in. So what we find oftentimes in corporate America, especially in sales and marketing, which are two very, very high pressure jobs. We find the lizard brain always being on. And that's our caveman brain, right? That's the one that's, uh, I've either got to fight or I have to run or I have to freeze. And when that happens, your thinking just narrows down to this. And so you are reactive. Don't make good Decisions. You don't even have access to your prefrontal cortex, which is where your thinking happens at this point. So that is the world that we live in. And there is a huge movement right now about bringing aspects of positive psychology into corporate America. Because positive psychology are, um, first of all, it is science. It is backed up by research. So it's positive psychology plus neuroscience to take a look at how do we as human beings perform at work, Especially in a world where we're always on constant pressure, constant change. Right? So there is a realization that we have to do something for the humans in the equation. We can't keep thinking that new technology, new org structures, new process is going to save the day. We're in a very different state right now. And so that's kind of like the, the flow of the conversation, um, for today is to how is that affecting sales, how is that affecting marketing? And what can you do about it?

Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's a fantastic jumping off point. I want to get into it more and you know, I. Somewhat ironically. So I think it's only made worse by the fact that, I mean, I know there's been a lot of callback to the office mandates going out. Um, however, a lot of us are still remote. Right. And it's interesting if you look at the research around sort of memory and creativity and how it's tied to routine. You know, when you feel at a certain point where you feel like the weeks are just going by, most of the time it's because you're not having a lot of surprises. Right. You're locked into a very similar routine, which is only made worse if your work is one story down or one story up from where you are most of the time. Right?

Speaker A: That's right. And again, working from home kind of in some instances exacerbates this because there is a function of, uh, loneliness, even though I love working from home. But there's gotta be some kind of people interaction as well. But in some instances it does exacerbate things because, you know, my phone is sitting right here. What if it goes off? Or, you know, what if I get a call from here? Or what if this pops up on my screen? Right. And I don't have a whole team of people who are like, looking and making sure that you're not being pulled into those kinds of things. So it's a good thing and it's also been a negative thing.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. You know, it's funny when you're, when you're talking about, you know, back in the Day when we had doors and nameplates on our doors and think, if

Speaker A: you had a door, I had a door.

Speaker C: Killed for a door.

Speaker A: You know, I had a, I don't even have a door now, right. I'm in this open space on my second floor. That's, that's what I've got now.

Speaker C: So that's funny. Okay, so, yeah, I think we're, we're in agreement on it's a problem. And I think a lot of revenue leaders out there who are listening, you know, whether they're going to admit it in the workplace, um, or maybe they're admitted to their friends, or maybe even just on a subconscious level this is taking place. I think lots of people are going to connect with this feeling. Especially when, you know, there's so much transformation, um, with AI. And leaders are kind of in a rough spot, right? Because on the one hand, as you yourself have said, like, you need to guide your teams through it. You have to help them go from fear to curiosity. And at the same time, I think that a lot of leaders are putting on a brave face. I think it was Gartner's research that found that, um, like 44% of CIOs, only 44% were deemed AI savvy by the CEO. Of all the people in the org that should know this one. Right. You know, I think it's shocking. It's easy to be overwhelmed when maybe the most junior people on your staff can run circles around you.

Speaker A: You know, we can talk about AI for a, um, moment. Because the impact of AI on our world cannot be underestimated. It also can't be understood yet. So, for example, AI is not another piece of technology. It is a brand new way of working, of living. I am a big science fiction fan. I, I love, I read science fiction. Do you read any science fiction course? Boring.

Speaker C: I do, I do. I haven't been a little while though.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Expeditionary force Fantastic. Red rising. Fantastic. So I've always had this idea, uh, that things are happening now that I've been reading about in sci fi for years. For example, I remember I'm this old, uh, the first episode of Star Trek in black and white, and Captain Kirk's on the planet and he takes out his little flip phone, which wasn't even a flip phone then, and I'm like, oh my God, I have to have one of those. But there are so many things that are happening now, and AI is just going to fundamentally change our world and what that means for revenue leaders and for marketing leaders who are Also responsible for revenue is the way you work is going to be completely different. The way you organize your teams is going to be completely different. The way you create your stack is going to be completely different. SaaS companies, I believe in a lot of trouble because of, uh, just the way this world is leading us. But this idea that, uh, AI changes the function of work. Here's an example. If you think about AI in like stage one, it takes out the execution layer. If all of your execution people are gone, and this is especially true for marketing, then what's left for you to do? How does that change the work? And it's the same thing in sales. How does AI fundamentally change sales? And this is interesting at the same time that customers want more authenticity than ever before, right? So, so we've got these AI bots and they can call and they can do all these things for you, but people want authenticity at the same time. So AI is just fuel on the fire of this crazy race that we're in of constant change and constant pressure. So that's kind of like the backdrop in which revenue leaders have to work. How can you possibly be successful in that environment using old tools and old approaches?

Speaker C: That's a good question. I don't think you can. And I don't want to dive down the rabbit hole too much, but you mentioned SaaS was in trouble and it's a little scary, right? Why would you, especially if you're operating on a user seat model still, when you can connect an agent through your MCPS and just run almost your entire tech stack that way? Why would you have 12 seats when an agent can do that?

Speaker A: You're not even going to have a tech stack. What you're going to have is, uh, a bunch of AI agents running all over the place. And, you know, when we talk about CRM, we can talk about that.

Speaker C: Yep, for sure. For sure. I'm living that reality right now. And sometimes it's like hurting cats, but let's zoom back out. So, I mean, yeah, I think that's a great example of why, you know, many of us are feeling we are in the age of overwhelm. And I think AI is just a, uh, subset of that. A great example of, you know, what's causing that feeling. So. So, Debbie, if we take that premise as true, then what are some ways that revenue leaders, sales and marketing leaders specifically, can work to combat that?

Speaker A: I think there's a couple of things. I think it was Salesforce who talked about, um, creating an adaptive environment. And that means that rather than Having processes solidly in place, have processes that continually adapt to what the conditions are. Right. And they actually saw like 3x improved selling in more adaptive type of environments. That's an organizational answer, which, yes, we need. But again, I'm going to talk about the, uh, people aspects of that. I think that one of the things that we need to do is we need to introduce revenue leaders to this idea that your brain is very powerful and it is very underused, and you need to find ways to keep that brain healthy and working and always on constant change types of environments. This is a big push going across corporate America right now. How can we help people, you know, with these inner skills that they need so that they can reframe a situation? Oh, my God, you just raised my quota by 45%. Oh, woe is me. What am I going to do? And the longer you stay in that spiral, the longer it's going to be to come out of it. So how can you. Apple Sherry. How can you reframe that situation into something positive and. Or then thinking about, practically speaking, what you can control versus what you can't control and what you can control, begin to take action. Action on that. So there's a whole toolkit, uh, from this world of positive psychology that helps people not just navigate that pressure and change, but also flourish inside of it. And these things aren't hard, they really are not difficult, but they just need to be taught.

Speaker C: Yep, absolutely agree. And I think it's something that it's either assumed that's what you're signing up for, right. That this territory that comes with the job, hey, you know, uh, Joe or Mark or Amy or Sally, they're going to figure it out, right. And they know it. Right.

Speaker A: And what's actually happening is the people who already have these skills innately or because they've been to really good therapists, they actually are carrying the team. Right. And then your revenue leaders are looking at them and saying, what are they doing? All they know is that they're resilient and they don't quit and they keep a positive attitude, but they can't break it down after that. And again, these things are trainable. And not only that, but when you begin applying these skills, you actually do rewire your brain. We learned about neuroplasticity, what, 30, 40 years ago. Before that, you're born with what you've got. Nothing can change. And since then, with neuroplasticity, things have just exploded into that mind body connection and how we can perform better with some of these Most basic skills. It's. Why do you think people tell you when you're having an anxiety attack to put your head between your legs and breathe? Right. Because it's the number one way that you can reset your nervous system out of panic and into calm. Breathing is the only way to do that.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: And so that's just an extreme example. So I think that corporations need to understand that the humans that they have working for them, um, have not been trained or prepared to work in this environment. We haven't evolved to be capable innately of working in that environment and then to train our leaders and also our teams in these very simple skills. So again, because it's not going to change. It's the job now. Constant change, constant pressure. It's the job, period. It's not going away. It took us a while to understand that some years ago, change was more episodic, big change. And then you level off, but now it just, it never stops. And then the pressure on. On top of that. So. And again, I think that of all the teams that's being hit the hardest by this, I think it's sales. There's not a harder job in the world, in my opinion. Right. And I've carried a bag for many years, and that's one of the shortcomings of marketing. They don't understand that pressure if they've never had to carry that bag. And it really does make, uh, a big difference. So I think that for our sales leaders and also for our sales teams to take some time and say, how can we help them build that resilience to be successful in this environment that we're living in now?

Speaker C: Absolutely. I'd love to come at this kind of from both angles. One from the organizational side of things and then one speaking to the leaders directly. Maybe let's start with the organization. So I think a lot of revenue leaders, especially in sales, right. Because they've been in front of people all their career.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Because they've had that pressure of carrying the bag, of having to meet that number, they're going to put on a pretty good game face. So if you're an organization, what are some of the warning signs you can look for in your leadership that's like, oh, no, maybe this person actually is struggling a bit more than they admit or they show.

Speaker A: Great. That's a great question. I see a couple of things. I see, um, quick decisions that aren't always the right decisions. They tend to be more reactive. And I also see them taking things away from their team and giving it to like, one person or themselves. Right. Those are like the two biggest things that I see. And I also see where if you have a revenue leader who's in a meeting, he or she is talking tactics, tactics, tactics. Because there's just no breathing room for strategy, thinking differently, no looking above the fray because there's no downtime, there's no thinking time for them. So I think it's those three things that you would need to look for in your revenue leaders that would indicate burnout, quiet, quitting. I remember when I ran my last national sales organization, every Christmas I was sick. Every Christmas, they closed the year, go to Christmas break, I was sick every year. It was the pressure, it was the stress, and it's a hell of a lot worse now than it is today. So I think it's the quality of their decision making and how reactive they are. I think it's, you know, not having the team do things, but trying to bring things back in. And I think it's the words that leave their mouth when they're in a meeting. And the more they're going to be very, very tactical. And they also start getting a little punchy versus, you know, let's change this to, I'm going to take care of that. Or so again, just pulling things back in. Those are some of the things that I see.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, I mean, that's great advice. And all three of those points resonate. I mean, I can think of immediate examples. A friend of mine, um, who works in the university setting, you know, they had. Works in the art department, they had a new director come in and one of the first things she did was take over, take over design briefs for a project, you know, and of course you're looking at that from the outside. Like, why would that be the first thing you'd do as a new leader? And of course, you're one week into the job sensing that overwhelm, and now it makes perfect sense.

Speaker A: Right. And that's also a great example of how your strengths can become your detriments. So if you're a high performer, then it becomes perfectionism, which slows everything down.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. And I love the example of going from strategy to tactical. And I think that's a hard one to observe in a way because, you know, when you're focused on hitting a number and you're focused on how do we get through this quarter, I think there's a reasonable argument for saying, no, no, stop, we can't talk about strategy right now. We're focused on disco calls because we're seeing such a huge drop off from there. We need to get straight on that.

Speaker A: I've seen it so many times, and it's a natural thing for a sales leader to do because they are online for the number, the team is online for the number. And so maybe you don't talk so much strategy toward the end of a quarter. Uh, but you can't drop it completely. And you can't also just get into these ruts where just do the same thing over and over. Do it exactly this way. There's no experimentation. There's no, let's try this. I also see coaching take a big dip in that environment. I mean, true sales coaching, not. You mess that call up and you're going to none of that. Really, really, really good coaching also seems to go the wayside when you have a revenue leader that's stressed out to the max. Yep.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. I mean, one of our partners ran a study back in 2024 that said 73% of sellers receive zero coaching.

Speaker A: That's crazy.

Speaker C: Staggering.

Speaker A: Absolutely crazy. Have you seen some of the sales coaching on the AI apps?

Speaker C: I, huh, have we actually have our own AI coach, so. Yes.

Speaker A: Oh, well, I can't. I can't wait to find out about that then.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: You know, I'm a, I'm a salesperson. I just got off a terrible call. Right. I mean, what do I do? How do I get some immediate coaching on it? Well, download the file, upload it here, give feedback on it, make the changes and move on. That's the world that we live in now.

Speaker C: Yeah. It's intriguing because one of the outcomes that we've seen is actually teams that are taking the hybrid approach. So that's exactly what you described, Debbie. When you, you get off a bad call and it's like, hey, maybe I don't want to walk into my sales manager's office with this, but I will pull up the AI, help me recover, help me get this back on track. What did I do wrong? And then also, you know, if this becomes a pattern over the next several weeks, if that's not working, you know, the manager can immediately spot those insights or spot those patterns and have a bigger conversation that does require that human empathy.

Speaker A: I think that's exactly right. What if in that AI app, you were also coached on not just a sales skill, but how to reframe a situation so that you could think more positively about it? Or how you might do something like, I've got my list right here. How you might bring more focus into a meeting and get a quick little training on that. Right. So that is the way that these positive psychology skills amplify sales training in a way that is very purposeful and, and useful. Right. It's not like it's this big gigantic training thing. It's just like you have a. It's like you have a new tool belt, and I swear to God, I'm going to go get myself a pink tool belt. And you have all of these little skills that you can just pull out anytime, depending on how stressed you are, and then manage that beautifully.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that you added that point, because that's exactly where I wanted to go next. When we dive into the leadership side of things, uh, I do want to ask about how AI can help and possibly hurt that equation a little bit. And I think that's a great example of how it. How it could help. Right. If you stop thinking like, hey, this is a great tool for not only, like, deal coaching in the moment, but we can also add on a. Here's some. Here's some other items to add to your toolkit, which or may not traditionally think about in the sales training space. However, because of that employee wellbeing aspect, it is going to make them more effective. Next call, for sure.

Speaker A: And they perform better. Right. If they're not, again, stress, you shut down. And when you're not stressed, you open up and you're going to perform better.

Speaker C: I think one of the first things that go when you're stressed is curiosity, which I think is vital for sales.

Speaker A: And curiosity is a very strong indicator of success in both sales and marketing these days. If you're not curious, then you really don't need to be working in sales or marketing. Not. Not these days. Because the changes are just so big.

Speaker C: Um, absolutely. Okay. So firmly switching gears, if, say, I myself revenue leader and I find myself slipping.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: I'm thinking I identify those three patterns that you said maybe showing up in slightly different ways. But, you know, I know that something's going on. I feel my stress level ramping up. What are some of those tools that I can put in my tool belt to help me show up better?

Speaker A: Okay, that's a great question. I think that the first thing is that your role is different now. So that's the first thing that you have to get clarity on. In the age of AI, Your role is not to be an execution task master, because again, a lot of execution pieces will go to the wayside through AI you're going to be an architect of, uh, change and adaptability. And you are going to be m more than ever before, the person that helps your team manage this stress and manage this pressure. Now you're not becoming a therapist or anything like that, but you do have to understand what's happening to your team and then you have to give them ways to improve. But so the role becomes very different again. The execution layer is going away and you are now going to be an architect of change. If you're the head of sales in your organization, if you were to take, uh, a blank piece of paper, let's say you had a good understanding of what's happening in AI, if you don't do this exercise with somebody. So if you were to take a blank sheet of paper and say, in the world of AI, what does selling look like? And not only just for the salespeople, but also for the customers. Right. For example, in marketing now we find that people are using ChatGPT for search. Right? So now there's this whole thing around how to create your pages so that you get, you know, you come up in ChatGPT. But I think that you have to think about what is changing. And I have often found, and I tell people this all the time, in times of big change like this, you need to slow down, you need to back up, you need to take a blank sheet of paper and say, honestly, in the world of AI, what will this look like? What will change? What will I be responsible for as a leader? Yes, I am still responsible for revenue. But guess what? Maybe that means I know I need to know more about what marketing is doing with AI. Right. It absolutely is one of those times where I think every customer facing organization, customer service, marketing and sales needs to take this as an opportunity to work more closely together to understand the customer journey. Because AI gives that to you if you're doing it right, real time, always on, period, it's happening. And so now what is my job as a leader? Um, and again, it is the always the big term I keep coming up with is an architect of change and adaptability. And how are you going to help a, uh, sales organization become that? That's a big ask. I think a lot of leaders are not trained to do that. I do think we're going to start seeing a whole lot more consulting in that area. We're already starting to see a lot of that. It is a great activity to go through and you have to go through it honestly, Corey. And you know this because people have their hills that they're going to die on no matter what. You've got legacy, everything in place and culture eats strategy for breakfast every day. Right? So the first thing is, what is my role in this world of AI and how does my role encompass performance of my team so they can operate in this always on constant change world? So the role is the very first part I think that they want to take a look at. Then I think they need a, ah, really, really good understanding of the skill sets that they need to help their teams acquire. So again, some of the things that we've talked about, how to reframe a situation, how to uh, savor a win, how to uh, encompass and keep forward a growth mindset and what that means. So there's a little bit of education around this as well as just here's the tool, use it. And so it becomes like this, this tool belt that you have. But I think the other thing that has to happen in this world, and all of the research is pointing to this, is more than anything, I think revenue leaders, all leaders, have to create an environment of what's called psychological safety. And that is huge in corporate America today. Over 50% of people in work today are scared they're going to lose their jobs, right? That's a huge number. And psychological safety is nothing more than setting up an environment where people feel like they have a right to question something. Right? And you're not going to shut them down. That is what psychological safety is. And if you think about research for years has talked about how the relationship between a manager and a subordinate, the number one predictor of whether or not that subordinate turned over, and it had to do with respect and understanding each other. Right? And so this is kind of in that same vein. You have to create an environment of psychological safety. And unfortunately, I would say this. If you work in a company where that's not possible, then maybe that's a value that you would want to go find another company. Because there are many companies out there, they don't care. There's many companies that do care. And this is one of the frequent things that I always tell executives when I'm working with them. Um, you're in the wrong environment and your values don't line up. Working in that environment, you really need to move on because it's just a slow death in your heart. It's just a slow death in your heart.

Speaker C: Excellent advice on so many levels. And that's the one concept that holds true, I'm going to say for two things. One, if you can do it, try to find a place where your values match up. Because like you said, even if you don't really realize it. It's going to be an inner turmoil. It's going to be a struggle always, and it's going to affect you for sure. And second, you know, the, the old chestnut that probably, uh, isn't going away anytime soon, which is people don't quit jobs, they quit bosses.

Speaker A: They do.

Speaker C: And we've seen it time and time again.

Speaker A: They absolutely do. So think about a later. They've got a team going crazy, they're fried. It is constant change. It's constant movement. The pressure just keeps building every day. There's no respite from that anywhere. So the job of that leader is to try to get that team back to at least level. Right. And then again, I just want to say give them the tools that they need to successfully make, navigate in that time of change and constant pressure. And these are lifelong skills that are applicable not just at work, they're applicable everywhere. But everything that I do, I apply it to just sales and marketing.

Speaker C: That makes sense. Okay, Debbie, as we come toward the end of the podcast, there are two questions we ask every guest. And the first is definitely the toughest over this last year, um, in the age of AI and it's, you know, we're recording this in 2026. Fast forward five years out, let's seat ourselves in 2031. Um, what is the shift coming for sales and marketing leaders that not a lot of people are talking about right now?

Speaker A: Again, I think that our definition of work and the work roles will be significantly different. Significantly. Who you hire, what they do, how you're organized, how they're paid. Um, I think everything about the role will be very, very, very different. I think organizations will look very differently. Jeff and I recently had a podcast where we talked about the AMIIBO organization. And you just have a bunch of people that go to where the need is, right? And it's just very, very flexible. And I think that, uh, leadership will have a brand new skill set that is encompassed in all leadership training. And it's going to be these positive psychology elements which are going to be critical. And I think that the number one role of the leader, you know, besides revenue, will be, it's just going to be more strategic. It is not going to be at an execution level. And I think that we're going to see that with AI we're probably going to have fewer employees. And I think that the employees that we will have will be, um, strategically at a higher level to bring more value. So those are some of the things that I see. I Think it's going to be very, very different five years from now. We're going to blow up legacy. We're going to blow up existing models that have been around since Henry Ford. We're going to blow up organizational models and what it looks like to work in sales and marketing.

Speaker C: Fair enough. I love the amoeba organization too. That resonates a lot. Okay, second and final question for you, Debbie. If you could go back five, maybe even ten years, um, what is one piece of advice that you'd give, career advice that you'd give your younger self and why?

Speaker A: Well, I was all in very early on AI, um, and I've always been really, really big on technology. I think it would have been to try to get off the wheel. You know the little wheel in the cage. What is it? What kind of wheel is that called?

Speaker C: Oh, like a hamster wheel.

Speaker A: The hamster wheel. Uh, you know, I would have tried to get off that and had more time for self reflection. Not just always on, always performing, always executing. I think I would have just taken some time. Periodically, right? Not just, but periodically because it does wonders to clear your brain out. I don't know why we don't do more of that. I mean, we have employees that won't even take vacation. Right. I would definitely take that time. I think that would be my number one piece of advice.

Speaker C: I love it. That's fantastic advice. I think as we go back, we come full circle to talking about work from home environments. I think many of us, you know, we just sort of strap in for the day and you know, we're just on and it flies by. But even doing something like 30 minute walk outside or just recharge creativity.

Speaker A: I've started using an app called Flown. Have you ever heard of it?

Speaker C: No.

Speaker A: It's called body doubling. And for example, I have adhd. So some days are better than other days. And you go into a Flown meeting, there's all kinds of people there and it can be a 15, 30, 1 hour, 2 hour. You set your intention for one task. It's like a pomodoro time, but it's in a meeting. And so when I've got something that's task heavy or I don't want to do, I've got that scheduled and I go in and man, I just zip right through it. So flung. There's so many great apps these days.

Speaker C: Yeah. Hey, that's a good tip. And Debbie, this has been so much fun. Thank you for joining us on this show. Um, if people want to learn more, more about you more about the Petowitz Group, or should they go?

Speaker A: Yeah, Growth Factor us. Plus, I have a special asset for you. It's called the Leadership Reset, and it's five things that you can do sitting at your desk in less than 10 minutes to depressurize. And so I'll send that to you, and you can make that available to all your listeners.

Speaker C: Thank you. Thank, uh, you. Yeah, we'll definitely put it in the show notes. All right. Thanks again.

Speaker A: Thank you. Corey,

Speaker B: you've been listening to the B2B revenue executive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.