Designing for Conversions with Justin Scott from Dopple– EP022

Foreign. Welcome back to E Commerce Masters, the show where we unpack what's driving growth for modern manufacturers, distributors and e commerce brands. I'm your host Ethan Giffen, Founder and CEO of Groove Commerce where we help mid market companies modernize how they sell online. Today we're driving one of my favorite topics, designing for conversions. We all talk about UX and optimization, but few people understand how visual merchandising actually shapes buyer behavior, especially in the B2B space. And my guest today is a great friend of mine, Justin Scott, CEO of Doppel IO, a visual configuration and merchandising platform helping brands show more, sell more and create buying experiences that feel effortless. Justin's been in the E commerce trenches for a long time now, leading teams building tech and driving results for both manufacturers and direct to consumers. Justin, it is great to have you on the E Commerce Master show. Welcome. Thank you very much for being here. I would say the same. Thank you so much for having me. Always good to hang out with you and the Groove team. Love it, love it, love it. So let's kind of start from the beginning. I always like to ask folks origin stories. So how did you get into commerce and what led you into becoming the CEO of Doppel? Oh man. You sure you want that story? A part drive, part luck? I think it all makes sense in reverse. So I'll give you the chronological where I started thinking about the beginning of Doppl and how I got started. I was really lucky to land Zillow with a group of guys that really taught me a lot about how to understand how to create, you know, commerce that works for buying and how it works for the consumer. And so I got to Zillow really early in 2006. You know when you're trying to sell homes on the Internet, before digital cameras it sounds and pre mobile it sounds, it sounds foreign or very aged now but we thought a lot about how do you create big data sets, deliver it to the user and also create visual information that the consumer can understand, educate themselves if they're a first time buyer and then self educate them through a self service mechanism, ultimately making a selection on the home and reaching out to an agent. From Zillow I went to a social media platform called Tumblr which was a visual cms. It really allowed consumers and big brands to take visual information, animated gifs, short form podcasts and disperse them and really create an audience to either gain an audience or to sell a service or a product. Then I went to a data visualization startup called Fiscal Note that looked at legislative bills and regulations and really the data visualization. I got into the product strategy side, really thinking about how do people process information, how do you design experiences or mechanisms to engage that consumer and really empower that consumer or a buyer to understand what they're looking at and, and to make better decisions through digital mechanics. That's great. And then did that kind of lead you into DOPPL from there or is that. Yeah, so I guess that's kind of the origin story. And then we talked about what we thought next, what was going to be the next curve and the best way to start a startup is look at the macro trends and we looked at where innovation hadn't really developed. If you think about the jpeg, which stands for the Joint Photo Excellence Group, it was just a bunch of people that got together and said, hey, if we're going to share visual information on the web, we've got to develop a file format that can move fast throughout the web. That really hasn't been changed in over 25, 30 years now. It's not that 3D is so incredible, although 3D utility is amazing. I'm a little biased, but I think it's amazing. Amazing is that 2D is so deficient. Right? One, it doesn't give the user control to self opt in to deriving that information, but it's also really flat in the context of B2B. You know, our research tells us that in B2B there's only about 30% of the variants that are shown on the page. Because there's no way you can actually photograph all the different variants for that B2B buyer. Right? So the 2D is just really deficient and it, it really hurts the ability to create leads and the sales mechanism of B2B. So what do you do? You try to innovate in that space. And so I think in the last 10 years using game technology, we've really seen companies lever that and use it in a, in a B2B commerce setting one to create a better buying experience and really designing for the outcomes that, that people need in B2B. That's great. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, I think it's something that is. That shift is definitely, definitely needed. And so that's kind of, I think it's funny, I think that's where our story starts to converge because Brittany from your team who's down in Charleston and Bill from my team is also in Charleston where like you two dudes have to meet. Like they were like, both of them were like, never had I Had a more stronger recommendation of, like, oh, you guys are gonna be like, love each other. And so, I mean, we've only known each other about eight months, but we met. What did we do? We met at Shop Talk and found our way to the Four Seasons bar and had a couple drinks there in the afternoon. Where strategy really happens, right? You know, this is, like, we both walked away from that. We're like, all right, we're gonna be good friends. We. We love the same stuff, so it's always cool to meet people, I would say. I love talking to you because we're obviously very bullish and excited about what we do, but we only solve half the puzzle, right? We provide a 3D canvas where people can come in and configure these products and learn about what they need. But the buyer's journey, the mechanism that you've heard me talk about is a pathway that needs to be created with partners. So the. The. The connection between Brit and Bill and getting to talk to you is like, okay, you know, how do we build a better mousetrap with Groove to create these pathways and allow B2B buyers to make better decisions? Right? And I think you and I see a lot of opportunity. We're both entrepreneurial, so I think having that. That common ambition and also maybe a cocktail Four Seasons was. It wasn't a bad thing to take off the friendship. And we also share a love for some yacht rock, so that, you know, and dance music as well. So there's a lot of. There's a lot of threads there. There's a lot of threads there. I think Brittany would say that you. You both love the finer things in life. I'll take. Which I take as a compliment from. From. That is true. That's true. We. We have high expectations, right? So we have that in our personal life and our professional life as well. And I don't think that's a bad thing. Right. B2B buyers have high expectations now, too? Well, I don't think it is at all. I think we should have high expectations of how we live our lives, but also how we serve our customers and how we help them in their overall journeys. For those that have never heard of Doppel before, what exactly does the platform do and who is your ideal customer that it works for? Yeah, good question. We took a lot of cues from 2D CMSs and then built a 3D CMS that is end to end. There's an ingestion part. There's an understanding of the creative direction setting of the product, and there's the publishing aspect, there's really two components. There's the platform side and then we have a content studio that takes CAD models from hard goods and takes a file called step and then ingest them and ultimately creates a gltf. So there's a content business in our market and there's also the platform business. But if you look at it from the outside, there's a lot of nerdy stuff around 3D files and whatnot. But it's just a 3D CMS. And the ideal customer for us is between 50 and 500 million usually they usually have a problem to solve in assistance to their sales team. They still have brick and mortars, they're usually OEMs and factories and they have a sales team that is in market. A lot of times they have dealer networks, but people are coming to their.com and they want to understand their products better. And there's, there's text content which is great, but visual information is just a lot faster. And what we've learned in B2B is there's usually a right answer on how they want to buy. Right. In the the D2C market is how does a product make me feel? When you're buying in B2B, you've got a job to do because you're getting paid to do that, right. And you're not buying one of one. Usually you're buying different product configurations for different jobs. And you might be buying in bulk, right. And you might not be buying there, but you might be asking for a request for quote. So we give companies that ability and with partners like Groove to construct that mechanism to be able to come in self educate. Right. And B2B buyers want control to understand complexity. And if you talk to any B2B OEMs, they will tell you in the first paragraph, our products are complex. So in a lot of ways Doppel just tries to simplify the complex with our partners. Yeah. So to kind of make it simple for folks, if you have customizable products, if you have built to order products, if you even maybe have kitted products, then Doppel allows you to add your app into the product detail page or wherever. And as the end user chooses different selections, it creates a visual representation of what that product is going to look like. That's exactly right. I don't know if I could say it better myself, I might hire you. I'll tell you this, your website is a salesperson nowadays, right? And in B2B you need an engineer, a sales engineer on that website. So that sales engineer Helps configure that product right with that buyer to understand the complexity. And you know, one of the reasons we became interested in Doppel is we saw salespeople going to market and configuring a product on paper and having to go back to an engineer and have it get it redrawn. That back and forth we thought we could solve with Doppel technology. At the simplest level, it's a sales engineer through digital technology on your website that helps empower buyers to make better decisions. Do you have a favorite customer implementation that maybe we could pull up on screen here to take a look at? Yeah. We recently launched over 50 configurators with copper hoods. My wife and I are doing a kitchen renovation. So this kind of hit close to home. And if you've ever done a renovation with a significant other, a partner, it is a financial as well as an aesthetic choice. So Copperhoods has been a great client. Again, these are really high value hoods. If you come in, they have their hoods named usually by cool locations. So you can pick any location. Del Mar sounds pretty cool. And you can come in, you're immediately visually greeted with a 3D object of the hood. You can come in and check the color that is the aesthetically pleasing to your kitchen tones. The color tones. You can look at the textures, right? And you can see that's that hammered metal and you have the apron textures. One thing I didn't know when we started this project is how detailed hoods can be. And copper hoods does a really good job. That's fantastic. Yeah, it's really so literally, you're able to select every available option that they have, every available accent or no accent size finish. And you know, at the end get both a visual representation as well as a final price. Yeah, it's really a customized personalized product. You can come in, change the colors, change every detail. If it exists physically, we match that digitally. And I don't know about the exact amount of variance, but it's probably in the hundreds of thousands for this one client. And again, traditional visual merchandising would be jpegs. The one thing we know about buyers is the law of less clicks is usually better. The laws of simplicity. And you would have to have 500 JPEGs on that page to be able to show every angle and the different variants. It's a deficiency in 2D. With 3D, you get to come in. This works with a designer that you're working with in B2B. You can come in and customize it, then Once you feel like you've down selected your products, then that designer could put it in the kitchen or the showroom choice. Now how long does it take? Let's just say you already have a website, right. You're not doing a build from scratch. Let's say you want to implement something like this into an existing commerce website. How long is that process? From first phone call? Yeah, really good question. It's all about data readiness. So good and good out. If you have CAD files that are readily available, we can jump on with one of your product teams be able to ingest those CAD. And then usually it's a 30 to 60 day process to do the modeling and the publishing. And then again we work with our partners on the implementation into the web page. So from first phone call. And you're hearing this a lot lady, a lot lately with, with AI and just any forms of digital transformation, it starts with data, right? So it starts with data around your product. There's usually a 30 day build and then there's usually a 30 day implementation process that we work with our partners to put it up. So I put it at 60 days depending on the size. 60, maybe 90 depending upon how, you know, how picky they are. Right. Like you know, but if they can go fast, you can go fast. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, with, with some of the, the AI investments that we have, the content side is giving solve for with automation. So it used to be a very manual process. Now it's becoming less manual. There's the law of the fusion of innovation. It's starting to reach a higher majority and the cost of content is coming down. That's going really fast. Now it's about how fast can you get it into a web page? And then it's just really a Q and A. And you've done more go lives and websites than I ever have. So you know that process very well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like when thinking about designing for conversion, right. How does this visualization impact that buyer's journey? Like how are you seeing that like flow altogether in terms of, you know, how it, like how it, how it rings for the actual buyer of the product? Yeah. I mean when we talk to, when we talk to B2B about what they're trying to accomplish, we spend a lot of marketing dollars, right. CMOs might buy large events, we have big sales forces, we push a lot of marketing dollars to get people to that moment of truth in that designing for a conversion. Right. But we don't invest a lot around the visual Merchandising, if you've ever worked in the commerce space, bounce is a problem. And I don't think it's better. I think it's getting worse. And it's because we have really high expectations that information is going to come to us and be on our terms. If you think about the brands you love on the consumer side, it's usually things that have really low cognitive load, really high value. So cognitive load is like, oh, noise everywhere. I can't find, what do I want? Value is me being able to understand and have visual confidence in what I'm looking at. So for us, we try to deploy that technology to not only educate and discover how the product could work for the buyer, but also nurture that buying process to the point where they're looking for an invoice, they're pulling out their credit card, they're looking for a request for a quote, then that visual skew, that variant can be sent to them for follow up in a bill of material. For us to boil it down into the simple 2D imagery is flat. It doesn't move, it doesn't have a conversation with the user. Whatever that image is has been dictated by the photographer that took it, right? It is static, it's not dynamic. With Doppel, you get a dynamic, immersive experience where that product talks to you, it initiates movements, right? And you can kind of talk to it, metaphorically. And the fact that you're making choices, right. And so, you know, with overlays, with hotspots, we really feel like we earn that attention, right? That product earns that attention and the results are pretty massive. Right. For Copper hoods, we increased engagement times 60%. The conversion rates went up 40%. So, you know, sometimes in Ecom land with a B test, we're struggling for basis points. These are large percentage gains. And at the end of the day, yeah, end of the day, it's just better information, faster. Yeah, I mean, I'm 100% on board with that. You know, I think one of the early blog posts I wrote for Groove was like, a picture's worth thousand orders, right? Because bad photography, bad imagery will absolutely, like, kill your conversion rate. And we did a project where they had horrible photography. It wasn't necessarily horrible, but it was not good. And so our head of E commerce, Drew Blaze, sat down with a client, actually, we convinced them to reshoot everything, which is a huge kind of pain in the ass, quite frankly, and a big ask. But he created a visual guide for the photographer and was able then to work with them very directly on a shot by shot scene for each product of each specific shot we needed. I think it increased their conversion rate somewhere around like 37 or 39% like that, like instantly just by having these new images. Right. And quite honestly, it was a one day or one and a half day photo shoot, like when it was organized and put together. And so, you know, like literally in the course of a week, they made a massive impact on, you know, on their, on their business. Yeah, you know, we, we're starting to arrive some visual imagery, what we call virtual studio from 3D models. In addition to the product configuration, imagine a studio on the back end where you can set the lighting and run a script to run through the configurations and produce that imagery. A lot of our clients say, hey, if you've ever had a bad photo shoot where you've moved equipment and didn't exactly get what you want, it can cause you to rethink that. So what do you actually start with? Say again? What are you beginning with? Just to kind of boil it down even again, are you on your side? Are you beginning with a CAD file? It's a CAD file or an actual image? Yeah. So you can model anything. There's a lot of technologies that will be out there that are available to scan, but we like to start with CAD files. We want the surface geometry of the CAD file so we strip out any engineering data that we would not need. That surface geometry is called polygons. And then we shrink the polygons down to be web performant. Now the reason we like to start with CAD is we actually take the product apart. Right. Model every little piece and then we wire that to the visual controls so we get to know the product pretty well from a partner perspective to be able to do that. Now if you use other acquisition 3D methods, you can't do the configuration which B2B buyers want, which is really the secret sauce of what we do. But for 3D fans out there, there's going to be a whole host of ways to AI driven. One photo. You can get a model nowadays. There's lidar, there's photogrammetry, which is a system of camera rigs. There is a lot of money flowing into the medium of 3D outside of doppel that I think will become more readily available pretty soon. That's awesome. What are the biggest mistakes you see companies making with product presentation or even just buyer experience? What should they be thinking about? How can they get a win? How can they easily get a win out of this? Yeah, I Think, I think sitting down with your internal and external stakeholders, right? So if you have a digital agency or technology partners and bringing data to the table about the user pathways, the way they enter the website and the way they don't, you know, some of it's sales driven, some of it search driven, they can come in from different places. And you know, probably because I spent a lot of time at Zillow, I kind of think about a house. There's a lot of ways to enter the house. There's windows, there's doors, there's ways that you want them to come in, ways you don't, but you need to design for that. And the output of that is just wire mapping. What do you want the buyer to do and then what is the visual information they need for them to move forward in the journey and how do you empower to do them? So I think that is a never ending discussion. If you look at the tech products that we use in our consumer lives, they're well engineered to design for conversions, right? Think about Airbnb, think about your Ubers, think about your Amazons. We can apply a lot of Those mechanics to B2B and you can see large gains in doing that. So again, I think it's a lot of discussions and I think you need to visually map out what you're trying to do and look at what content's on the page. And I will tell you, in our studies, people don't read block text. It can be valuable, but immediately you need to give them the why in the block text. And we think visual mediums is the best way to do it. Through imagery, through 3D, pull out the details of why that is so special. And then if they want to go deep on the text part, they can. But people want information fast, right? It's low cognitive load, high value. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of leads very well into. My next question is once a brand or a manufacturer goes live with Doppel, how are you kind of measuring success of that implementation? Is there any kind of key metrics that you're looking at with them regularly to prove that out? Yeah, we really do. So a lot of analytics on the web is linear. It's did this person click here? Did they go to that page? 3D is a one way mirror into the buying behavior of that person. I'm a madman fan. If you've ever seen the one way mirrors where they're looking at somebody trying and they're like, Bobby likes the cornflakes. We figured it out. That's the canvas for us, we drive all those events and capture all those events and consent into GA4 to compare to your more linear analytics. Now, the interesting thing to us is instead of navigating web pages, they're navigating a product. So you're looking at what did they configure, what did they add, what did they not add, what did they add to cart versus what they spent time on. And that's really interesting because on a big order side, AOV matters. Like when you're buying 10 or 100 of something, that matters, and it definitely matters to the sales team, which you can poke and say, hey, they're going to put an order form for that. But the augur, they spent a lot of time configuring the auger. You might want to go to try upsell them the auger. We think that paired data set is part of our sweet sauce and something that really drives insight. It's really close to how people buy in the real world. If you go into a car dealership, Ethan, since I know you like nice things, right. And you're looking at your new Tesla, right. That salesman is going to observe what you like about that car, right. Is that nice Corinthian brown tan leather, Right. Or does anything leather? Absolutely. That salesman is going to observe what you like, and he's going to mimic some of that information back to you to confirm why you'd want to purchase that. So as we live more of our lives and make more of our choices online, we need the analytics to understand real human behavior, because it really doesn't change. You need the ability to capture it when you're engaging with an organization. It's interesting to me where kind of the wants and desires of an organization comes from. Is this something that a CTO is calling you about? Is this something that the CMO might be calling you about? Like who is kind of your ideal customer? You know, when you're hearing, generally hearing from somebody, I love this tech, that's a really good question. And I think it's evolving. The driving Persona is usually the marketing department because they usually have control of the commerce space. A lot of times the product person is interested because they've got a new product to market and they want to show that product. Right. And a lot of times they can't show that product through just regular steel imagery or they've seen configuration somewhere, sometimes car sites in their consumer life, and they want to bring that to life through DOTL technology. And sometimes it's a corporate initiative, right? Because sometimes the sea levels will say, hey, we need to change or give ourselves an unfair advantage in our go to market. And configuration can solve some of that. But the predominant Persona that we interface in the marketplace, in the ecosystem is the marketing side. And is this something that kind of layers into like a CPQ module on the other side of this? Or like how is that, like how are you passing all that information back and forth in terms of buying options upstream, downstream? Yeah, you nailed it. So once you have that visual data of what somebody's buying, it can sit on top of a cpq, right, which has dynamic pricing rules, it can be pushed into an ERP and it can be pushed into a commerce platform for your order management. So the digital thread is the buzzy word. There is the ability to take a digital twin, which is that, that 3D configuration, and pass that data through the thread of the supply chain all the way down into the ERP or commerce platform. I think nowadays if you're going to be an important technology partner, you got to integrate with where the systems live. Speaking of partnerships, I know you work with some other agencies other than Groove Commerce, right. To bring Doppel to life, I guess. Like what's, what's your take on agency partnerships and like what's working well and like what makes it, what makes a good implementation partner for you? Yeah, I think a good implementation partner for us is going deep in a partnership. Right. I think there is a, there is a people process and product. Right. I think one, you've got to start with the people because in today's tech stack and the complexity, you've got to trust your partners. You got to have that cocktail at the Four Seasons and know you have each other's back. And I think that trust goes a long way because in any implementations there's going to be an oh moment or we didn't account for the scope in this moment and you got to have quick dialogues on how to figure that out. Next is a joint parallel process that's highly visible and that people over communicate on. It can be a Gantt chart, can be a workflow, but it is a mutually agreed upon shared responsibility that you're going to get this done for the client and there's no room for BS or egos there. Then it's the product that you produce together. There's not a lot of technology solutions that solve everything. So the combination of effort ultimately solves for that buyer, which is what the brand really wants. So you need to think about what is the joint product that an agency plus technology partner has and the ability to deliver the outcome for the brand. Three P's Awesome. Awesome. So, you know, one of the things that we kind of, we hear occasionally is kind of the build versus buy. Right. And so let's say a CMO reaches out to you and they're trying to decide do they want to work with a third party tool like Doppel. Or they might say, well, I got this guy on my team that says that he can build this himself using AI in a couple days. So I guess my question back to you is what questions should they be asking a CMO be asking internally within their organizations when somebody says, hey, I can go build that thing? That's pretty simple. Yeah, I can see you've gotten that question before. The one thing I would tell that CEO is what business do you want to be in? Are you building the hard product, the hard good, or do you want to be in the technology side? Right. If you're doing internally, for this to scale, you're going to need to be in the technology business also. Right. So I say that because if you're going to do this across multinational, across your product lines, it's pretty easy to go from zero to one. But from one to end, you're going to need a tech team behind you. And that takes, that takes people, which is a cost. It also takes the time to be able to build a platform like this. And then I would say, you know, I don't think it's, it's, or I think it's. And, and I would encourage some companies, if they're going to invest long term in 3D to have some artists on their team. The reason we build a platform is, you know, we, we do it for our customers a lot of, but we envision this becoming a DIY type platform where if you, if you want to start to build yourself and then migrate over to the Doppel platform, we can do that. Or if you want us to start it, get to a phase three, phase four. And then if you want to hire 3D people internally, then we'll work with them and support them and teach them how to use our tools. I wouldn't go it alone. If you're, if you're, if you're above 50 to 100 million and you're trying to run that business, one, one person might be able to get you started. But I don't, I don't think you can scale up to hundreds of products that have millions of SKUs. Right. Just the digital asset maintenance alone for one person would be, would be undoable. What Kind of. And I definitely agree like wholeheartedly with that statement. You might have somebody that can like, you know, get a V1 of something or like a V05 of something for you, but the investment in your product and all of the, you know, all of the learning that you have across the multitude of clients that you have, like, you know, all of that knowledge comes back in, into doing it and we kind of deal with that. You know, we get asked that question regularly for all different types of things. And I've seen some of your work, some of your digital playbooks. It's obviously that you have domain expertise amongst a client set. So you kind of build that, you build that information and it becomes repeatable. So, you know, once you've modeled something before, you know how to attack it and how to publish it a lot quicker. Yeah, I mean, especially on the B2B side for distributors and manufacturers. You know, I talk a lot about learning from what direct consumer brands are doing. Right. And you don't necessarily need a one to one takeoff on that. Right. But tools like Doppel give you the ability to create Amazon like experiences that are much more specific, you know, for your custom, for your buyers. Right. For your customers to be able to come in and configure those products and add them to their cart or add them to a potential. That's an interesting relationship, right? It's an interesting relationship between an OEM and a dealer. Right. Because a lot of us that are buyers, we go to the dot com, right, to find that information. That's usually the single source of truth. The second is usually we look for reviews like are there positive and negative reviews about what I'm trying to buy? And then when you go to the dealership, it really benefits the buyer to go in empowered, you know, with a bill of materials or with a, you know, a configured solution set of products where they can go into that dealership and talk about it. Right. That is an empowered buyer. The reverse of just going into a dealer. Right. The question is, does the dealer have multiple brands that they're selling? Right. And what is the incentive there? So if I'm the oem, I want to make sure the dealer is selling my product. If I'm the dealer, I'm incentivized to sell what's on the floor. Right. And if you think about high variant complex products, a lot of times they're not on the floor. So the relationship and empowering the buyer and also taking that data and pushing it into CRM to follow up on the lead flow is kind of a digital tethering. We talk a lot about the digital tethering between different dot coms and understand that decision. Or designing for conversions through the buyer's journey that goes outside the oem.com. yeah, yeah. What's coming next for Doppel? What's coming in 2026 for you guys? I think like most companies, we're talking about how can we apply AI to drive down a lot of our costs and pass that savings on to the user? You know, content used to be really expensive. The JPEG used to be a really expensive format of visual information. Believe it or not, it was Polaroid than the jpeg. Or is it Kodak? One of them shelved the JPEG because it was too expensive. Right. So the thought is, how can we make content more accessible and scale through automation? And then once you have that 3D digital asset, and I'm sure you're seeing a lot of videography content creation that happens through AI, how can we use that digital asset to generate derivatives such that we can really cost effectively hand 1,000 or 10,000, you know, visual images to a buyer, to an agency partner and say, okay, that's not a problem anymore. Right. You can go to the lifestyle shoot and then I'm all about that. Right. And, you know, if you're, you can still hire Matthew McConaughey to drive down the desert road and look super cool in the Oldsmobile. Right. You know what I'm saying? All right. All right. Right. But the, the cost of content and the ability to be creative is really accessible. So investments in AI, we're going really deep in some verticals where we found some real traction, and we're going really deep in some partnerships. Obviously, Groove is one of those. So we want to make sure that we're empowering our, our agency partners to make sure that, you know, we, we are in every conversation that we can earn to be in and make sure we deliver great outcomes. And if you deliver great outcomes for your customers and get to work with great people, then you get to celebrate that at the Four Season with the cocktail with your friends. I'm always down for a four season, an afternoon Four Seasons cocktail. Absolutely. So, you know, always, especially when the sun's out, what's coming for what's coming up on you guys? You asked me a lot of good questions. What's coming up for groove in 2026? Well, I've got a book on B2B E commerce that's going to be coming out. I want to sign Copy by Christmas. All Right. Well, maybe Christmas might be a little. For anybody that's done it. It's a tough journey to get your first book out, but we're getting close, so I'm excited for that and hopefully late Q1 that'll be out. We're planning for a couple of great events next year. We had a fantastic E Commerce Master Summit last this past May that was. People are still talking about it. Which you attended, right? I loved it. It was great. Great content, relaxed environment, really fun. Yeah, you know, it's a. It's a boutique. You know, I don't know, I don't even know the right word to describe it, but it's a boutique. You know, there's about, about 50, 60 folks. So it's a small, it's a small and intimate group. We have on site hotel, we have a bar in our office. So it's, it's kind of a cool vibe for people that want to come and meet people and get to meet experts and talk to people in an intimate setting. We've got that coming up in June of 2026 and we're going to be launching a B2B Blueprint, which is the name of my book, the B2B E Commerce Blueprint. We're going to be launching a B 2B Blueprint event in the fall of 26. And so we're continuing to drive forward and figure out how do we create great experiences for, for our customers. And so we're really pushing to see people in person a lot more or kind of over the COVID you know, the COVID Zoom, you know, stuff. And so we're really pushing to do all that. So I got a suggestion for a chapter in your book. All right. For B2B. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Love it. Right? Love it. We'll see. I do have a whole chapter on the product catalog. I've got a whole chapter on the product catalog and some other things. So we'll figure out how to work this in here. What platforms are you guys implementing into commonly? Yeah, Shopware. Love those guys. Shopware, the artist formerly known as Big. Commerce. Commerce. Right. Shopify, Salesforce. A little bit. We see a little bit of Magento. Those are the main ones that we stick to. The ones you would think that serve B2B and B2B C. All right, great. Those are common, common names. Yeah. I'm excited for 2026. I'm excited for the continued evolution of AI within the industry. And quite honestly, I'm just excited that having partners like Doppel and Hawk Search and some other people that we've really kind of built some fantastic relationships with and I think are really helping our customers increase their conversion rates, increase their revenues, you know. So, you know, I'm just excited in general about the whole industry. Yeah, me too. Yeah, me too. I think you and I get the privilege of being exposed to a lot of really intelligent people in the market. We obviously get to see each other a lot of events and you know, I'm humbled by how much people want to share knowledge and, and do great things and push our industry forward. You know, digital is not decreasing. It's not decreasing, it is not decreasing. So the acceleration game is where you got to be. And what we're seeing too is we're seeing an evolution of Maybe it's a 50 or 60 year old business that might be in its third or fourth generation and that new leader who is getting into their 40s, maybe even their 50s depending upon the succession. They are ones that have had smartphones at this point, you know, for the last 20, you know, the last, you know, they're digital, right. They grew up digital and so they are pushing and I believe especially, and you'll love this but like as private equity continues to drive into manufacturing and distribution, gobbling people up, the people that have great digital platforms are going to be the portfolio companies that they stack all the other acquisitions underneath of. Right. And so they are going to, you know, I think, I think that if you have a great digital strategy like that is an extra multiplier in terms of, you know, what PE is looking at when they come in and buy point. If there is consolidation, roll ups in the market, it would make reasonable sense that PE groups would take out that company first because they've got the digital infrastructure that can scale out to other companies. Right. And we're seeing it everywhere from golf cart companies to marinas to all kind of businesses that are going through that generational shift. And yeah, you're spot on. Is that in the book? That's something I talk about. Yeah. And quite honestly, we see it in action. We do work with, you know, we work with PE backed organizations and you know, for example, I can't name one but like, you know, they, they've, we built a great, you know, commerce system for them and have figured out how to optimize it and they've gone out and bought three more companies and it's literally just, you know, rolling those products in and figuring out how is the brand name Worth keeping? Or is it, you know, is this a separate instance or is this how, you know, how is this going to. Going to happen with this? And so, you know, we're seeing this happen in the real world and so something to think about is. All right, well, so I always like to ask a final question. And so for manufacturers and distributors that are thinking about digital transformation, do you have one tip or one thing that they should be thinking about in that process? Yeah, hire great talent. You know, I think that if you're going, if you, if you recognize as a C level leader that you need to go through change, there's a lot of ways to go about it. Many books have been written. But I think I would answer to one of your points is you need to start hiring digital natives. The people that have enough experience to be in that seat, to be at that table, but that grew up digital native and have a strategic vision that aligns to your business vision. And I think you put a small team around them and slow is smooth and then smooth is fast. You know, you can start, you can start really small and build on architecting your website to be able to capture information. Implementing a CRM for light Legion. Right. Understanding light automation. I think it starts with talent. I think I'll go back to the talent, the people, the process, and then the outcome of the product. I think the ability to hire great talent out there is the best first investment any company can make for people that have digital vision, people that don't see just six months out or two months out or two years out. If you can get somebody that sees five years out and is steadfast in that vision and you can get them in their org, that is the best place to start transformation because you can coalesce around that vision. That's great. That's great, Justin. That was fantastic. I always appreciate our conversations. I feel like every time that we sit down, I always learn something. So I'm just so happy to be here. I'd say the same for you, man. Listen, I really appreciate the chance to get to talk to you every time we meet. I appreciate you having me on the podcast and I love seeing you on the digital playground. Yeah, I'm sure we'll see each other in person soon. But for anybody that wants to learn more about Doppl, you can head on over to Doppl IO. We'll include the link in the description of this podcast or you can connect with Justin directly on LinkedIn. If you enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to, like, comment and subscribe. It really helps us to reach more people and grow and spread the good word about commerce. And so I'm Ethan Giffen from Groove Commerce. From all of us here on our team, I just want to say thank you for listening. And I will see you on our next episode of E Commerce Masters.