S8 EP4: Maintaining Presence

Speaker A: Hello listeners, and welcome to episode four of season eight of the Agile Pubcast. This episode is about maintaining presence. It didn't start out that way. Started out, uh, with Paul talking about how he has a lack of focus and getting distracted at the moment by trying to get all the boring stuff in his life done. But it did lead on to talking about how to be present, the benefits of being present and the challenges of being and staying present, especially in a more hybrid and remote environment. We got to talking about some tools and techniques that can help you with that and uh, one of them that we shared we need a name for. So write in, let us know any suggestions for a name for that technique. When you hear it, you'll know it. And listen to the end of this episode for a special code that you can use to get you some money off our, uh, next three day in person coaching skills certified class in London. Enjoy the episode and we will hear from you soon.

Speaker B: Hello, I'm Paul Godd. I'm Geoff Watts and welcome to the Agile Podcast, the show in which Jeff and I discuss what Agile is really all about over a pint or two in the pub.

Speaker A: In each episode we chat about our experiences as two agile coaches in today's ever changing world.

Speaker B: So grab yourself a drink from the bar, pull up a chair and enjoy what I'm sure you will agree is probably the best Agile Pub related podcast in the world.

Speaker A: Hello, sir.

Speaker B: Hello.

Speaker A: Welcome.

Speaker B: Cheers.

Speaker A: Welcome and good evening. Tuesday. Happy Tuesday.

Speaker B: It is a Tuesday. Yep, just a Tuesday. Heading towards the middle of the week.

Speaker A: Not quite Hump day.

Speaker B: What is hump day? I never really understood that. Stand there.

Speaker A: Hump day's Wednesday, basically, where you're over the. No, well, you're in the middle of it, aren't you? You're so sort of, you're halfway between dry land and the island, you know, uh, you can't really. It's just as easy to go back as to go forward.

Speaker B: It's the point of no return.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're. When you're at your lowest, I think.

Speaker B: Oh, right, okay.

Speaker A: I think.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Because Thursday's almost Friday, right?

Speaker B: Thursday is the new Friday. Apparently. I was chatting. Yeah, that's, that's the. From a kind of office, kind of corporate day sort of things. People come into the office on Thursday m and they might even go to the pub on Thursday.

Speaker A: Really?

Speaker B: And then Friday is a, you know, is a home day. So a lot of offices are generally empty on Fridays.

Speaker A: This is. Yeah, this is true.

Speaker B: This is the way, the way of the world. What Are we drinking what we got?

Speaker A: I've got a Bristol from the Buckcombe Brewery. Uh, it's called Stateside. It's an IPA session. Ipa. Quite easy to drink. It was when I bought, uh, was a beautiful day. It's a bit drizzly and grey now, but, you know, we had the best of it. Yeah. We'll post some pictures maybe of our catch. We went fishing today in the sea. Sea fishing. And, uh, you can see who caught the biggest fish.

Speaker B: They weren't big. They weren't going to break any records.

Speaker A: No. But they all went back safe.

Speaker B: Yeah. But fishing was the winner. Um, yeah, it was good. I enjoyed that. I'm m drinking. Um, you poured me a Magda, didn't you, Magnus? Which is very nice Irish cider, I believe, Magnus.

Speaker A: Well, it certainly was not. M sure if it is anymore.

Speaker B: Yeah. You don't see it. Yeah. These parts in the west country, you don't see Magnus very often.

Speaker A: So disappointed recently. So we're going off track. We might cut this. Who knows? Maybe we'll put it towards the end, in case you are interested in this kind of. Kind of discussion. But so disappointed to see, uh, I went to a bar with someone from Europe and they'd come to London and said, what should we drink? I said, well, I'll have a London Pride. I quite like London Pride. And it's, you know, we're in London.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, uh, the guy behind the bar said, yeah, it's not. It's not from London anymore, really. It's now owned by a Japanese brewery. London Pride. Owned by Japanese, Really. Um, and then something else. Oh, there was another one. Oh, Beavertown. We were talking about Beavertown Neck Oil and things like that. Oh, they've been bought by Heineken, which are Dutch.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So I wouldn't be. I don't. I have a feeling that Magnus isn't Irish.

Speaker B: Probably isn't even made in Ireland anymore. No.

Speaker A: Who knows? Who knows? But then, who cares?

Speaker B: Yeah. M. It still tastes like apple.

Speaker A: It's nice to get together again, isn't it? We've done the last one Remote. We have to put the effort in these days, don't we, to actually get

Speaker B: together for these things, schedule these things these days, don't we? And cut out time in our diaries to do this.

Speaker A: Not fewer opportunities, naturally.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, I think that's just the way of the world, isn't it?

Speaker B: We have got a course coming up soon, which would be nice to do that together.

Speaker A: That's true.

Speaker B: Getting the. Got the band back together for a Few days in London. Go to London, have a bit of a. See the big smoke.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Which would be cool. So I'm looking forward to that.

Speaker A: Find some new.

Speaker B: We can share where we're, uh. The accommodation that we're sharing.

Speaker A: Can we?

Speaker B: Well, yeah, we won't say where it is.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Because obviously we don't want to be followed by the. By our scores of fans.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But, uh, uh, the sleeping accommodation for myself and Jeff during that trip will be in a boat. A, uh, houseboat I've, uh, booked. It's my. It's my risk. I've taken it. I've booked a houseboat.

Speaker A: You say it's your risk.

Speaker B: So it could go one of either way. So me and Jem might be. Me and Jem. Me and Jeff might be, you know, even more good friends than we are already. We might hate each other by the end of that trip.

Speaker A: It'd be a, uh. It'd be an experience, won't it?

Speaker B: It will be.

Speaker A: It won't be good, it won't be bad. It'll be interesting, as I like to say.

Speaker B: But, yeah, it should be. Should be fun. Yeah. So that's that. Um.

Speaker A: What's on your mind?

Speaker B: Um, what's on my mind? Um, last few. Well, just find it. Finding it difficult recently to focus, I think would be the way I'm describing what's going on for me. Lots of things in my brain, lots of things whirring around. And this is something I think I've always struggled with is, uh, m. Being able to cut out the noise and get one thing done. Well, rather than. I just find it so difficult sometimes that I'll find something to distract me, even if it's something which is completely just not important. But I'll find anything. Anything that sparkles to. That will distract me from my. From my. My task.

Speaker A: Is this. Is this a procrastination thing or is it a distraction thing?

Speaker B: I think it's distract. I think it's if. When I've got a low. Let's say it's a task that I'm, um. Not particularly. It's not high on my, um, fun factor. Um, but I have to do. It might be some admin or some kind of, you know, a list of things that I need to get done. I do sometimes find it hard to. To nail those things if I'm not particular. If it's a bit of a boring task to do or a bit of life admin that I really would try and avoid if I could.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So, yeah, it's just going Through a bit of a phase, I suppose, or a bit of. It's just struggling to see those things and to get them done, I suppose.

Speaker A: Okay. And there's more of those than normal.

Speaker B: It's just. I suppose. Yeah. And it's not. It's in. It's um. It's not just work stuff, it's it's other life. Like I said, life admin as well. It's that it's a year end for me. So it's a lot of things to kind of tie. Tie up and move on to other stuff. Just this little things. Like I know I had to change my broadband at home. I know it's one of those things that I know I should ring up and. But it's just I've got to have that conversation. I've got to ring up and hassle and haggle for a better deal.

Speaker A: When you say you had to change

Speaker B: your broadband, it's just one of the things that I knew was I'm spending, it's costing me too much money. So I know that there's a better deal out there and I know that. I've done the research.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, and you know me well enough to know that I pick out language. You say you've got to change broadband. Sounds like it's a good thing.

Speaker B: Oh, it is, yeah. I've done it now. So it's like it's one of those things now. I've done it. I'm. I'm pleased with myself.

Speaker A: So you get to change your broadband. It's an opportunity for you to save some money and M get a. Sorry, I should put my phone on silent.

Speaker B: Talk about distractions.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Wasn't it. You once told me that the, I mean, uh, for the, for the record people, my phone is not on the table. M. But Jeff's phone, it's on the table. I'm sure it was you that told me once that even just having your phone on the table, throw it across the room right. As it smashes on the floor. But no, you did, you did. You will remember this. You said even during a meeting, having your phone on the table, even if you're not looking at it, it's a, A, uh, the first part of distraction.

Speaker A: Well, yes, and not only that, it reduces trust and safety in a conversation. So yes, it's increasing the chances of distractions. Uh, and if you are coming back to your point about focus and getting things done, a good tactic that I was taught was to actually put things out of reach, to put your phone out of the Room consciously on top of the really tall wardrobe on the other side of the room. So you can't just subconsciously get it out and start flicking through apps. Um, and you can, you can, you can get all sorts of apps and tools now that allow you to actually stop you from m opening other things when you're in the zone for a period of time.

Speaker B: My daughter um, downloaded one for her revisions. My daughter's just had her mock exams and I think at that stage, at that age, I can't remember my GCSE mock exams. Um, but the level of distraction for a 15 year old girl must be enormous when you have a mobile phone. So there's an app that um, her friends downloaded and she also downloaded which was about growing trees. M. So um, she's rewarded. So when she um, activates the, this tree growing app, I can't remember the name of it, um, when she activates it she starts her revision. So the phone is next to her but it's just a screen showing trees growing and it's a timer.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: But whilst that I think the trees immediately start dying if she scrolls onto a different M app. So that kind of reward of trying to grow a garden or a forest that on this app was quite useful for her and then it becomes a bit of a, you know, amongst her friends, you know, who's growing the most trees in the previous week. So that was, I thought that was quite a cool um, a good, a positive thing.

Speaker A: Yeah, I saw it sounds like a higher tech, more fun, more engaging version of the Pomodoro technique.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: In a way.

Speaker B: Yeah. I don't, I don't think it defined how long you should. The time length. No, but it was very much. If you wanted to do four hours straight or whatever, six hours straight, you could, I think there was no, there was no suggestion on breaks within it but it was just a way of visually um, rewarding a teenager for not being distracted.

Speaker A: Yeah. This is difficult. I think we need to rewire our behaviors a little bit when we want to focus or if we, we want to be more present.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you're right. I think I used to. And you see it don't you a lot at um, concerts and events where um, everyone's holding up a phone and they're almost looking at the performance or whatever. It's uh, through the lens. Through that lens. And yeah, I'm a big fan now. I've stopped taking a lot of uh, photos ah. And videos at concerts and sports events to try and Consciously say no, I'm just going to enjoy this for what it is. I'm just going to try and I might uh, trust my memory and that that's the best way. I just want to be here. I don't want to be thinking about getting the right photo or what photo should I then share with my family and friends even though they, I know that they probably want to see it or they want me to text and understand what's happening. But equally I just want to absorb myself in that moment um, and maximise my chance of remembering it I think for the right reason.

Speaker A: Well this could get very, very deep here. But people, there's a widely held view that now is the only real time. So the past gone, future might never happen.

Speaker B: Huh.

Speaker A: So has that, is that, is that relevant to you know, we're here to talk about agile. Yeah. Rigidity. How is that, how's that relevant?

Speaker B: Well I think um, I think in terms of facilitation so for facilitators, whoever they might be, there's establishing um, presence within yourself as a coach, stroke facilitator, whatever, coaching or facilitating or teaching or any kind of human interaction. I think um, there's um, being present yourself and immersing yourself in the moment yourself. But equally I think there's ways that you can help group an individual maintain and find that presence and that focus for themselves as well. So I think it's a two way um, learning opportunity, a two way muscle um, to develop.

Speaker A: You just clicked your fingers. Was that a ritual that you used to get yourself present?

Speaker B: Dunno. I honestly now said that. I don't know why I did it. I don't know what did I do

Speaker A: to emphasize it was almost like a

Speaker B: you're back in the room a prompt for me.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was almost a visual indicator of. Visual and audible indicator of separating what you were saying to what you were about to say or the main point to just bring me to attention. Bring you to attention. Attention and those types of uh, you could call that a ritual. I mean it's not really because perhaps you haven't ritualized it but it's an opportunity to become a ritual uh, to get your presence back or to get other people's presence back, that sense of being there. And so then I'm going to run with this and see what you think of it. You said about facilitation and teaching and coaching and being there in the moment rather than worrying about what has happened and rather than worrying about what might happen, uh, just being really there then is that what you mean by that?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Um, being able to say I'm 100%, you have my undivided attention. And that's a really hard thing to say. I think it's a very easy thing to say flippantly without really understanding what undivided attention really is.

Speaker A: Because you do not right now have my 100 undivided attention.

Speaker B: Thank you for being honest with me and saying that, because what's going on for you now?

Speaker A: Well, I can because I'm m looking at you. But I can also see in my peripheral vision the sea. And I can still see the end of the pier where people are fishing. And my eyesight now and again gets drawn to that, even though I want to be focusing on you. M. It's there, uh, it's something that I haven't actually done yet, but I've. I've toyed with. The idea of experimenting with is a bit like horses, blinkers. Uh, so you ever watch horse racing? Uh, and some horses will have blinkers so they can't see to the side of them.

Speaker B: Other horses. Yeah.

Speaker A: And it increases their focus. Sort of trying to toy with that a little bit more in terms of how can I increase my focus and my presence? So I will. Some things that I have done already is I tend to try and put AirPods in rather than just use my speakers from my monitor. Uh, because that cancels out a lot of other noise.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I take myself off the screen so I can't see me when I'm in a call.

Speaker B: I've started doing that a lot more now. Yeah.

Speaker A: Moved the, uh, video, the camera video of the other person right up to the top underneath the actual camera in my screen. And, um, deliberately closed all other windows. And I've set my focus to do not disturb. M. Um, but I'm also thinking about. Because there are other things going on in my room, but just feels a little bit too weird to actually put blinkers on. But we've talked before about how if you close off your eyes, it can increase your listening and so on. So I went off on a bit of a tangent there.

Speaker B: No, I think that's, um. Keith Johnston, God rest his soul, um, taught me just one of those little throwaway actors, um, tips he said in a workshop, he said, try and deliberately widen your eyes like that. Not great for audio, but literally trying to purposefully widen your eyes. And he said, try. And they do like, they do scenes like this. And they say that will naturally increase your awareness because you will then deliberately move your eyes more and you'll notice more about what's going on around you. And it's um, that looks quite weird to do on a camera by the way, but I'm m not suggesting you might do that but it's, it's uh, likewise when you take, when you close your eyes your sense of hearing will naturally increase because you're deprived of sight and you'll work harder on your listening and all the other senses tend to be heightened.

Speaker A: Yeah, well it's almost the opposite isn't it? What you're saying there is if you widen your eyes then you're seeing more of what's going on around you so you've got that bigger picture. Uh, whereas there are times when actually if you want to maintain more focus and presence actually you want to narrow your field of vision, uh, literally in this case, uh, and almost squinting maybe. Uh, so now I can still see you. Again for the benefit of the tape, I have narrowed my eyes significantly M so I can see Paul but I can't see very much else. So yeah, maintaining presence. Why is that important? Why is it important? I think. What do you think?

Speaker B: I think you have to um, your audience, whoever that might be, a group or an individual, uh, increases a sense of a bond, a relationship that you're immersed in the moment with them, whatever they might be doing.

Speaker A: Huge amount of empathy, rapport that's implied there in giving you that massive amount of attention. Yeah, you can kind of feel it can't you? If someone's really, really giving you their attention, you can sense that um, sort of makes you feel a bit special, safe. I suppose it could go the other way. Could make you feel unsafe if it's the wrong kind of attention. But if it's non judgmental caring attention then that's a great thing.

Speaker B: I think there's so many. I'm uh, a m Lot more. I've read a little bit about this in terms of what my emotional triggers are with, with, with, with maintaining and we see it in training a lot. Both you and I have done a lot of training and we know that the most difficult times are the post lunch kind of lull or when you're just about to finish on day two. So the whole um, for me and for many others, um, your hunger and your levels uh, of thirst in terms of, and your fatigue has a huge bearing on how present you will be.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So there's peak times for me, um, I'm generally not great in terms of presence first thing in the morning. As we've worked together a Long time. Jeff. You know that I'm not a morning person where I know you are. Um, so I generally feel like I, I'm better. I'm more switched on um, later in the day. And that's just natural biorhythms in terms of. I feel. Yeah, I just feel more alert.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: More with it.

Speaker A: You have more energy to give.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I know, I know hunger is um, my natural kind of tiredness levels, fatigue levels um, will have a bearing on my presence. But then your. As a teacher, as a trainer, you're aware of other people's um, potential and you can sense in training course when, when we need a break, when we need. When we're losing focus. I know I shouldn't really throw Nigel under the bus, but um, I will uh, he used to in BT we'd have you m. Must. Have you ever had someone fall asleep in your training course? Be honest. No, I don't think so. Well.

Speaker A: Well, I think somebody actually said once that they were struggling to be fair when they introduced themselves. They said they were. They had narcolepsy so they were prone to it but then at the end of the day managed to say they didn't.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we used to in our um, we can say now in our BT days when we clearly had people there that didn't want to be in the course. Mhm. They would find it hard to um, be alert and to remain present and at Nige. Um, whereas I would. So the click, clicking fingers is one thing is. Is to change the dynamic of the room. Uh, to clap your hands is another. Nige used to walk around and kick people's chairs if they were falling asleep. I wonder if he still does that. But there we are. But um. No, I'm sure he doesn't. But uh, yeah it's uh. Tiredness and fatigue can have a huge bearing on. In terms of big decision making is sometimes go away and sleep on it. And just to recharge your batteries before you make a decision like that I think is essential.

Speaker A: Well you picked out a few. I think we've picked out a few symptoms things that you might be able to notice if you're looking out for. So if you are feeling sleepy, if you are finding your mind is wandering, if you're starting to feel physically uncomfortable or fidgeting or feeling too comfortable maybe and falling asleep, if you start noticing that inner monologue where you're thinking about something or what you think about it rather than listening or focusing what's actually going on. So those Are some. Some symptoms. And you. You said emotional triggers. I actually heard physiological triggers there more than emotional triggers, but.

Speaker B: Oh, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: There are some. Yeah. If you're feeling anxious, if you're feeling sad, if you're feeling really happy or emotional, then it's harder to be neutral and calm and present.

Speaker B: Um, I wonder what the best emotion is then for maintaining presence. Because you set a spectrum there.

Speaker A: Is calm an emotion? Because if it is, I'd go for calm.

Speaker B: Calmness, not. Yeah, there's a difference between calmness and numbness. You still want to be alert and alive, but you want to be balanced, I suppose. And neutral. In neutral. Interesting, isn't it? Yeah. I think I was going to mention something else then about emotions. Carry on.

Speaker A: Um.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Emotional check in.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So this was an Esther thing, wasn't it? Back in the day? I'm sure. I'm sure I learned this from Esther.

Speaker A: You got it from the core process.

Speaker B: Well, I'm sure maybe it was. It was Esther's the first one that told me about it. Esther Derby. But the idea of actually, you know, stating. And it used to be in relation to a daily scrum or a daily standard, but of stating emotionally, Emotionally checking in with your team each day as to where you are before you start talking.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Which I think in some respects is helpful just to do in it. In any interaction you're having where you. When you want to remain and be. Be focused and be present, naming that emotion, being aware of that emotion in yourself and maybe in someone you're coaching would be, uh, would be useful.

Speaker A: Yeah. Then it's out.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then you can focus more. I think that that's a general. A general good practice really is whatever's going on in your head, try and get it out quickly. If it's. I've been distracted. Just. Just name it. Own it. I just lost my focus there. Just started looking at the fishing on the end of the pier and uh, it's not bouncing around my head with me getting into sort of self recrimination. Bad Jeff. I wonder if Paul noticed. Oh, no. I wonder if Paul thinks I'm bad. Just put it out there. Um, uh, admitting that I forgot to put my phone on silent and then doing something about it and throwing it across the room. Getting it out there. Uh, if you can control your environment. Control your environment. One of my biggest problems these days is being in a noisy room. I find it harder to stay present when there's a lot of noise going on and you can train yourself on that. But just generally that's a good technique. Any other techniques that you're familiar of, Familiar with?

Speaker B: Um, just counting in my head, um, breathing and just trying to take my time, I suppose. I think, yeah. If you, if you feel, like you said, if you feel yourself wondering or um, emotionally, it might just be, it could be a, uh, an emotional something that you're feeling or something, you know, that's on your mind, distracting, that's coming up. Um, making promises to yourselves, writing those things down, that's one of the, to give you your credit, it's one of the best things. The first things that you, you, uh, mentored me on. Um, before all this agile thing took off back in BT was I was preparing for my stag do. Okay, so this was 22 years ago, something like that. 22, yeah, 20. 20 or 20 odd years ago. And I was working on a project called Juliet. Juliet is not a person, it's a system. M and I had a lot of stuff to do and one of the most valuable things that you taught me at the time, you just said in your typical Jeff way, just write them down. Just write down all the things you've got to do. And that still to this day helps me. Now if I'm struggling, if there's lots of things going on, potentially one thing will distract me from the other. I probably just need to write them down. M. And then at least, at least naturally by writing them down, there's an order to them and I will be able to focus better on one of them than trying to throw them all around in my head. So generally for me, writing, I think visualizing and writing something is, is a better way to focus on it.

Speaker A: Uh, I need a name for this. I can't believe I haven't got one. There must be one. Maybe, maybe it will just emerge from this. But what I encourage other people to do and what I try and do myself is sort of get into the right mindset. So often we'll. I think most of our listeners will resonate with the fact that they often rush from one thing to another. One meeting finishes, they go to another one. Conversation stops, another one starts. If you can buy yourself two minutes, uh, to think, okay, what's coming up next? What's the best state for me to be successful in that? What are my goals? What are the things that I want to try and do or not do? How do I want to be in that next thing that's coming up, whether it be a meeting, whether it be I'm going to be working on My own here set the conditions both from a, from a physical perspective, but also from a mental perspective. So I need a word for that. It's almost, I don't know, it's putting yourself in the right frame of mind or mental reset or something kind of recalibrating each time.

Speaker B: But surprisingly, even now that with hybrid working, online working is that the diary gets filled up. And even, uh, just last week someone, one of my good friends said to me, oh, I, I've set a meeting up and I haven't given myself time for lunch. And that's happened. That's two different people in the same in a fortnight that said, oh, I haven't had time for lunch today.

Speaker A: I haven't, you know, so. All right, so let's hold that though, but explore this with me then. Right, so back in the day, uh, before COVID uh, we were all still busy.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: We all had more stuff to do than we could ever do.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: That hasn't necessarily changed.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: So I'm thinking back now to when we were more office based and even though we were really, really busy, there would be differences. Right. So you had a meeting with, so you had a meeting with aj.

Speaker B: All right, let's call him aj. Yeah.

Speaker A: And then that might have been at his desk. Yeah, yeah. And then there have been a team meeting where you'd have had to walk, uh, 50 meters into a different room. Then you might go downstairs to the cafe for an informal one to one or something like that. Then you go to the comfy chairs because Den wanted to tell you off, give you some feedback. Sorry, Give you some feedback. Give, ah, you a shit sandwich.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, so there's a break. There's a difference. It's not just a monotonous. Okay. I'm at my home office desk all the time, just going from one zoom call to another. I think that's a big part of it. You'd have those little breaks, you'd have those changes. And sometimes the change is as good as the rest. Right. Going from AJ's desk to death M. Yeah.

Speaker B: And movement.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You have. By physically moving from one thing to another. I think we've said this before as well, is that most of your zoom or teams, meetings at home, listeners, I imagine, will be sat in the same seat literally from one minute to the next. Um, and moving from a different room, different furniture, different seat will put you in a different mindset, I imagine. Um, and it's, I mean, I can't remember, maybe I was just a bad planner back Then. But I never remember my diary being full of those meetings. Some of them would have been more. Can I have a chat?

Speaker A: Yes. About.

Speaker B: With you in. Are you free today? At some point? Yes. I'll come and grab you when I'm free or whatever. So it would never be formalized like it would be now. If it's every. Everything now is a meeting on, um, online, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: If you want to talk. If I want to talk, it has to be on my calendar in the meeting, else I won't come, else we can't talk. So that there's no, there's, uh, no landlines on desks anymore. Everything, everything is now done through an online calendar. I can't just ring you up. And if I do ring you up, it's like, oh, something must be. It must be an emergency. Yeah, it's not that kind of thing. So I think, I think that's changed over time. I think, um, incidental meetings, whilst probably give you more time to prepare or to think differently, don't happen.

Speaker A: But you could argue this is me being contrarian again, that in a time where everything is scheduled, you can look at your calendar tomorrow and you can see all the meetings that you've got at what time and with who you could prepare. You could get into that mindset for each of those and you could know, okay, I'm going to have to move from coach mode to teacher mode to colleague mode. And you can sort of be. Whereas when we were in the office and AJ came by and said, can we have a chat about this? You were on the spot and you perhaps less or knee jerk. Yeah, but we don't. I don't think we. I think that's something that we, A lot of the people that I coach neglect or don't even realize the value of it. Um, but when, you know, when I'm coaching them on getting into the best frame of mind for that particular thing, they think, well, yeah, obviously, why am I not doing this?

Speaker B: I wonder if there's also. This might be quite. This might be easier for you and I, but harder for those immersed in the trenches, so to speak, but of prioritizing or planning your day for the same types of interaction. Um, and I know that's, like I said, that might not be possible if you're a scrum master or if you're an agile coach. It's in a very turbulent environment where you've got to have a, uh, one to one with a product owner and then you've got to step into a Group planning session for a team that's working on triaging defects. So that's two very different mindsets and you might not have that luxury, but maybe just thinking more carefully about which meetings are following the previous one and is that the right time to be engaged in that meeting or do I need to give myself more space?

Speaker A: Okay, um, so I'm following you on that. My instinctive response is you're wrong, Paul. But. But when I stop and think about it, I don't think you are as wrong as I thought. I think there's always m more than one way to solve a problem. So one, one way to solve a problem is be more proactive in how you organize your character calendar so that you have to shift stance less frequently. Yes. So you can stay in that zone, uh, more contiguously. Makes sense. The other part of me thinks in a complex and volatile environment, you can't really predict things. You can't really manipulate your calendar, especially if you're in an enabling role like a Scrum Master or an Agile coach, you kind of have to respond and meet people where they are a lot more. So the other way of looking at it is, well, how can I become better at shifting stance quicker and more effectively? And for me that uh, comes back to self management and management of my own structure, my own processes, my own rituals. Does that make sense?

Speaker B: I agree and it makes sense. But I also think the caveat to that is that is extremely demanding on your brain. I've uh, seen it happen whereby it's just unless you decompress effectively then that shift. And due to the number of meetings, I've seen some very busy Scrum masters having to take on gets to the end of the day and they're out on their feet, they can barely speak.

Speaker A: Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. You've got manage yourself and manage the condition. It's not easy.

Speaker B: No, I know.

Speaker A: But if you've got say an hour meeting, then you kind of need five minutes to get out of the last one and into the next one.

Speaker B: Oh, at least five minutes.

Speaker A: M. Yeah, but the more you do it, the better you can get. The more, the more you can get good at just, uh, needing five minutes and you can establish, you know, find your own techniques and rituals to.

Speaker B: It's interesting. I don't think. We don't really teach this. We were never taught this, were we? No, probably not something we've learned about, but as a, as an employee for an organization and we go in and, and teach employees on, on how to do do things. But we don't tell them how to unwind. There's no practice for that.

Speaker A: I prefer your first word of decompress. Although maybe detach M. So I've got in my mind now visualization that actually doesn't work for me. But I remember Lisa Atkins telling me about how at the end of a pretty intense coaching session, she will visualize all these attachments, strings that are connecting her to the person. And she will, in her mind's eye and physically manifest this by waving her hands around her body, cutting those ties, and feeling that sense of release. That doesn't work for me. But that visualization of, well, this is what works for me. I'm detaching myself from that previous stance or that previous, um, interaction and then consciously, mindfully, proactively getting myself into a different mindset for the next one. So you're right. I don't think we were taught that. I think we picked it up.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I would be very. I wouldn't be surprised to know that our listeners have maybe even subconsciously they're doing something like that, uh, at home, you know, in the privacy of their own home, is when they finish one session and before they go to the next. It might be a habit. It might be making a cup of tea. It might be literally just standing up and arching your back or feeding the cat or whatever it might be. But it was something that maybe subconsciously we're doing to leave one meeting behind before we step into the next. Uh, it could even be someone like checking your email. It could be something that's a distraction, you know, you're pacifying yourself with. That was bad. Now I need to look on to the next one.

Speaker A: I would. It's rare that you'll hear me be this strong in my advice M. I'm going to strongly advise that it be more mindful and conscious and deliberate and deliberately pick something, some kind of process, some kind of technique, not just subconsciously go and check your email and hope that that works. Now I'm going to try. Even if Celisa's thing, for example, even if I don't think it's going to work for me, just the act of consciously thinking I need to do something to detach me from this state and prepare me for this state. That is probably better than not doing anything, um, consciously and just letting the subconscious take hold until you've established an effective ritual when you can let the subconscious run with it. Yeah, I'm not normally that well.

Speaker B: There we go. That's a nice way to, to end there that Jeff's given you don't often hear listeners. Jeff gave some firm advice there.

Speaker A: Uh, mhm. Yeah. Get your presence sorted and, and if anyone can think of a better word or term for what I described, I'd love to hear it. Must be a good, good one.

Speaker B: Hashtag coaching presence.

Speaker A: Yeah, hashtag coaching presence. Do people do hashtags still? Don't they do, don't they? Don't they do.

Speaker B: Yeah, why not? Alright, nice one buddy. Good to see you. All right, good to catch up.

Speaker A: Go into tach from my conversation uh, with you now and prepare for the next thing.

Speaker B: Cheers buddy.

Speaker A: Cheers. So for those of you that listened in at the start and noticed that we were going to be giving you a secret code, the code is presence. P R E S E N C E. Use that code, get a special discount.