Flow State for Startup Founders: Deep Work That Actually Ships

WEBVTT 1 - > Foreign. 2 - > Your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German 3 - > startup scene with news interviews and 4 - > live events. 5 - > If you're a founder or engineer fighting distractions, 6 - > here's the challenge most productivity hacks 7 - > create Flow Stephen Puri, the VFX 8 - > producer behind Oscar winning Independence Day and former 9 - > Fox Greenworks executive Turd Shuka 10 - > founder, has shipped under Hollywood level 11 - > pressure. Today we'll unpack his Flow State 12 - > playbook from the coffee shop effect to remote team 13 - > rituals so he can do deep work and 14 - > be2 time your meaningful 15 - > output today on 16 - > startup rated IO Stephen Puri.

He helped deliver the visual 17 - > magic on Independence Day. Braveheart, True Lies, 18 - > Godzilla Dentur then moved 19 - > upstairs as a studio executive at Fox and DreamWorks. Along 20 - > the way he co founded Centropolis FX with his friend 21 - > Roland Emerysch, later selling the company and produced in the 22 - > Transformers universe with Transformers Prime. He's 23 - > a founder again building 24 - > Flow State platform for remote workers, developers and 25 - > creators.

We'll explore what Hollywood war rooms taught 26 - > him about focus and what his startup failures told 27 - > him about resilience and how to design teams for deep work in 28 - > an AI driven distraction heavy world. 29 - > That is a nutshell. That's a big sentence. 30 - > Yes, but.

But you know, in Germany we love big sentences 31 - > and compound bounds. Yeah. 32 - > Let's talk a little about origins. You told me both of your parents 33 - > were engineers.

You started in CG and 34 - > Metroland Emirates through vfx. What 35 - > was the first this is bigger than me moment on 36 - > Independence Day? Oh, I think 37 - > there were a lot of this is bigger than me moments. I was 38 - > very fortunate to meet Roland and Dean, his co 39 - > producer and co writer, after I had worked 40 - > on about 13 movies.

How 41 - > that happened is you mentioned my parents were both engineers at IBM. 42 - > So when your mother is a great ice skater, you probably learned to ice skate 43 - > when you were little. So. So I learned how to code.

I was in Los 44 - > Angeles at the University of Southern California when computers 45 - > became powerful enough to handle film. So I 46 - > worked on the digital effects for True Lies with Jim 47 - > Cameron seven with David Fincher. I did 48 - > Braveheart and Mortal Blood with Mel Gibson, did a bunch of movies and met 49 - > Roland and Dean after they'd done Stargate. And 50 - > I remember coming over to chat with them and they were building in one of 51 - > the hangars at Howard Hughes old aircraft factory which 52 - > was been abandoned, but it was a very cheap place to have huge stages.

Right. 53 - > They had under construction the 54 - > alien fighter craft that Jeff Goldblum would later 55 - > be inside and install the virus to help save the world. 56 - > And it was pretty great having a conversation with them about 57 - > doing the movie Together when you're standing next to this massive 58 - > starship being created, that was one of many moments 59 - > that was hard movie to do, but a great one to do. 60 - > Every day.

What did leadership under pressure look 61 - > like across Braveheart? True Life's Godzilla, and which 62 - > habit from those sets still lives in your 63 - > founder routine? Okay, so in 64 - > many ways, I view leadership as 65 - > a way to create an environment for a team to do great things. 66 - > I don't view leadership as, oh, I'm here to be 67 - > the great one.

I think, for example, in the entertainment world, Bob Iger 68 - > is a great example of a leader where he has amazing people running 69 - > the divisions he's navigated, very complex acquisitions, but 70 - > he doesn't make it about him. In contrast to someone like 71 - > Elon Musk, who's very full of himself. So 72 - > going back to working with people who are very talented, 73 - > Mel, Jim, Cameron Fincher, Spielberg, I work with 74 - > Woody Allen, Jim Jarmusch. The thing that was important was 75 - > we have a team here and if everyone has something 76 - > inside them that is great to express, how do you create the conditions where 77 - > they're going to be great, they're going to get that out.

And that's a very 78 - > strong theme of my life. I've worked with incredibly 79 - > productive, creative, talented people. And it's 80 - > about, if we all have something great inside, how do you 81 - > make sure you don't die with it still inside you? That's how 82 - > I view leadership.

83 - > We had quite an extensive conversation before that, and you said 84 - > the studio sequel Treadmill felt at one point meaningless 85 - > to you, pushing you towards a startup. What 86 - > snapped and why? So what you're 87 - > referencing is when I had sold 88 - > that company with Roland and Dean, and I was in my late twenties, 89 - > and as one thinks in their late twenties that they're smarter than they are, they're 90 - > more successful, they're better looking than they are.

Right. So I had that moment of 91 - > like, oh, wow, I sold a company and I had some money in my pocket. 92 - > My girlfriend was a flight attendant for Air France, and we traveled for a year 93 - > or two and just sort of experienced the world. And I thought, 94 - > when we come back, I want to make 95 - > movies.

I don't want to make a portion of someone else's movie. 96 - > So I worked my way up the ladder to be, as you said, 97 - > an executive vice president for Kurtzman Mercy at DreamWorks, Vice President 98 - > at Fox doing Die Hard, Wolverine and things like that. And I wanted to 99 - > be like a studio chairman. So when I got to 100 - > Fox, what was interesting is 101 - > I came to understand for the first time that my job, which Was 102 - > from the outside, rather prestigious.

103 - > I'm responsible for delivering the next Die Hard movie, the next Wolverine movie, 104 - > a bunch of movies on the slate. It's really just a chair. 105 - > The studio will live beyond my tenure there. It was around before 106 - > I was there.

I'm the guy in the chair for these couple of years, 107 - > and someone will come after me. And the studio is going to make these movies 108 - > regardless of who is there, because people will just see a movie 109 - > because it says Die Hard on the poster. And my 110 - > boss, who was the chairman of Fox Films Entertainment, who was a 111 - > smart guy, if not a nice guy, a smart guy, he was very 112 - > pragmatic. He said, you know, it doesn't actually matter how good this movie is, 113 - > how good the script is.

We can financially model it based 114 - > upon the previous four movies. So as long as we make it cheaply, 115 - > we know we won't lose money. And, Yorin, that 116 - > is not an extremely inspiring way to lead a 117 - > team. It's like, hey, would you go kill yourself to make 118 - > this thing?

By the way, we know the script sucks, but as long as it 119 - > gets shot, when Bruce has some time to shoot the movie, we'll release it and 120 - > it'll be fine. And that for me, was the breaking point where I was like, 121 - > am I going to wake up, be 40, 50 years old doing die hard 122 - > nine in the retirement home? Because people will go see it even 123 - > if there's no idea. I couldn't see spending 124 - > more time there.

I think there's a real value misalignment at Fox. 125 - > If you do Die Hard 9, it has to play in a retirement 126 - > home. Pretty much, yeah. And obviously now 127 - > Bruce is not making his movies anymore, and I hope he and his family are 128 - > well.

But at the time, he was still quite 129 - > vibrant. And the movie got made because he had a 130 - > window of time in his schedule. It was not made because this is the 131 - > most amazing idea. The best script ever, the best director ever.

It was 132 - > more, just get something ready and shoot in April 133 - > and we'll find a country in Eastern Europe where we can shoot it cheaply. 134 - > Not inspiring. Good to have a. It pays well 135 - > and it's a fun job to have, but.

But someday you're like, 136 - > I'm going to wake up sitting around talking about how I did these bad 137 - > movies. Not a great way to spend your life. 138 - > For everybody who's interested, we do have a founder's world. And then we 139 - > also talk about his talker's moment and how Stephen 140 - > rebuilt his identity as a founder.

The full story, of course, 141 - > inside our Founders vault. 142 - > I was wondering because you've been in 143 - > corporate. I have been two. Even though completely different 144 - > capacities and industries.

What specific 145 - > anti patterns did you learn there that 146 - > now shape Shuka product bets. 147 - > Okay. An anti pattern. And this might fall 148 - > into category of values also, which is, 149 - > I think you, 150 - > all of us right now are looking at how do we measure work.

151 - > And in the tug of war between working at 152 - > home, working remotely, working hybrid, working in office, 153 - > there's a lot of fear. Right? 154 - > I think the fundamental thing that we should focus 155 - > on is not, well, where did you do this work? 156 - > Were you here under the fluorescent lights with me where I could watch you?

157 - > Were you at home? Were you at a beach or at a park? I don't 158 - > know where you are, not what time of day you did it. Like, if you're 159 - > not here at 2am Joran, you're not working hard, you're not part of the team.

160 - > If you're not sleeping under your desk, you're not doing meaningful work. I 161 - > don't think those are important. I think work should be measured by the effect 162 - > of what you do, not where or when you do it. So if you walk 163 - > in the staff meeting tomorrow and you say, guys, actually yesterday I had some 164 - > time to think.

This is what I was considering. 165 - > And everyone in the meeting looks over and goes, oh, my God, we should do 166 - > that now. That changes the trajectory 167 - > of our company. And then you say, well, you know what?

I actually 168 - > just thought of that. Walking my dog. Who cares? 169 - > I would much rather you said I was walking my dog and I had this 170 - > revolutionary idea than I was here all day.

I was here 14 171 - > hours yesterday. And I have some mediocre things to share. You 172 - > know, Stephen, between you and me and something like 50 173 - > to 100,000 people listening to this interview, can I tell you a secret? 174 - > Yes.

I have the best ideas when smoking a cigar. 175 - > Okay. I'm glad it's our little secret. No one 176 - > tell anyone what you just heard.

177 - > Yeah. Awesome. Why do you think that is? Hold on, I want 178 - > to ask you a question.

Why do you think that is? That's pretty simple. 179 - > That's like a moment I do get 180 - > completely for myself. I sit there on our covered 181 - > porch, on the balcony where there's another balcony on 182 - > top.

But I have awesome neighbors. They don't mind me going 183 - > out late at night smoking cigarette because they're already in bed. Thank you, 184 - > neighbors. I look out like it is peaceful world.

185 - > There's. There's a lot of green. I see some squirrels running around and 186 - > all that stuff. And I.

I can really wind down my brain. I can 187 - > really relax. And it 188 - > takes some time to smoke, like a really good cigarette. So you 189 - > relax it for quite some time.

May I tell you a story? 190 - > Sure. That's why you're here. So when I was 191 - > transitioning from being a student at USC 192 - > to the film world, which was not my original intention, I sort of fell into 193 - > it.

I had gotten a job 194 - > working at a company that did trailers for movies, 195 - > largely for Warner Brothers and for Buena Vista, which is Disney. 196 - > So my job, when I was 20 years old at this company was 197 - > we would have contracts with the studios where they would send us rough cuts of 198 - > movies. Hey, next spring we have this romantic comedy with Steven and 199 - > Joran in it. Find a way to promote it.

So I would assign 200 - > those incoming movies to writer producers. Hey, go take this home. 201 - > Watch it. They want it to feel fun or they want it to feel scary.

202 - > They want to feel right. So the company is owned by two 203 - > guys who are very well established in this field in Hollywood. They were very 204 - > respected as great guys to promote movies. So one of them 205 - > comes in my office one day, and he's 40 years old, 206 - > by the way, smoke cigars.

So he comes to my office, and 207 - > he's the only person in my life who calls me Stevie. So he goes, 208 - > stevie, do you know Bart? 209 - > And I was like, there's the guy in the vault that delivers tapes. Yeah, I've 210 - > met him.

Seems nice. Why? He's like, you ever 211 - > give Bart a trailer to ride? 212 - > I was like, are we talking about the guy who delivers coffee?

The same. 213 - > Bart, the guy. Where are you going with this? He's like, 214 - > stevie, I have an instinct about him.

215 - > Jeff, you own the place. Let me give him something to work on, Right? So 216 - > I found, like, a Warner Brothers B title that had a month deadline. 217 - > So if after a week, he's like, I don't want to do this.

I could 218 - > give it to a pro. Right? Jeff comes to my office two days 219 - > later. Stevie, how's Bart doing?

Like, Jeff, I gave him this 220 - > thing two days ago. I'm not going to bug him. I'll check with him on 221 - > Monday. Okay.

Okay, that's great. What else did you give him? 222 - > Jeff, he's never written a trailer in his life. I gave him one movie, 223 - > and Jeff said something that I've seen 224 - > proven true for 20 years in both film and tech.

225 - > Jeff said to me, stevie, let me explain to you how 226 - > creativity works. It's always about the 227 - > other thing. He said, if you give Bart one movie to work 228 - > on, he's going to stare at that with little beads of sweat coming down 229 - > his temples and he's going to write the most 230 - > obvious B version of a trailer. 231 - > He's like the part of your mind that does the huh, 232 - > what do chocolate and peanut butter taste like together?

He's like, that's not the part 233 - > of your mind that you think you're thinking with. So you have to give 234 - > him something else to think about. 235 - > Not only have I seen him proven right so many times, but there is a 236 - > book about the neuroscience of this called the Net and the 237 - > butterfly by Olivia Fox Caban 238 - > and Judah Pollock. And it talks about the 239 - > executive mode and the default mode networks in the brain and 240 - > talks to a lot of inventors, talks to a lot of creative types and say, 241 - > how do you do this?

And what's interesting is the default mode 242 - > network, which actually exists first when we were small, is 243 - > the one that just explores the world. It looks at a cell phone and thinks, 244 - > I wonder what that tastes like. Well, the executive mode network is more 245 - > like the adult in the room. I have to finish the slide 246 - > deck for tomorrow's presentation.

Oh, the investor thing is coming up. I need to 247 - > do my homework tonight. So it's only when the 248 - > executive mode network is busy doing something the default mode network 249 - > can play and come up with those ideas. You go, oh, actually that's interesting.

250 - > So that is why people have ideas when they are sitting out, looking, 251 - > smoking a cigar, walking their dog, driving, 252 - > doing the dishes, showering. So many people come to me like, I have my best 253 - > ideas in the shower. My best ideas like washing dishes. And 254 - > that is why.

I see. And 255 - > actually I also learned that when I became an entrepreneur, 256 - > I sent the adult in my brain a part time vacation. 257 - > Okay, let's talk about Transformers prime and later studio 258 - > roles. Put you in a massive cross functional team.

259 - > What's a communication ritual from that 260 - > world every startup should steal today. 261 - > Oh, okay. I would say probably the most 262 - > valuable thing that you see on show because Transformers prime is a 263 - > TV series that I helped set up. I helped staff 264 - > and create the organization for that.

So that 265 - > is a 3D animated show based on the Transformers universe and all 266 - > that. So a very similar thing does exist 267 - > in the standup world, which is you do 268 - > have a morning standup 269 - > and that is something that in the animation world 270 - > you will have a practice that Pixar is famous for about, you know, the 271 - > Pixar movies, right from Toy Story to today, like they've done an 272 - > amazing job. They have a very collaborative process of saying, hey, let's 273 - > watch things together.

Let's talk about the struggles we're having. I don't know why the 274 - > third act is not working here. It's a similar thing that I see in the 275 - > best startup, you know, best startups that have a standup that's 276 - > not just a. This is what I did yesterday.

This is 277 - > what I'm doing today. This is where I'm blocked. You know, it's like that 278 - > becomes such a rote sort of a thing that's not actually that 279 - > inspiring as to say, hey, you know what? I want to show something.

280 - > I built this feature. What do you think? And take 10 seconds. Take 281 - > 20 seconds.

Go. Now, when you do this in our app, this 282 - > works this way. And it's an interesting way to engage 283 - > the team, to get collaborative ideas, to shoot down bad ideas 284 - > quickly. And you, as a leader, have to create an 285 - > environment where best idea wins, where there is no ego.

286 - > And I'll tell you another story. When I was at DreamWorks 287 - > and I had worked hard, and I got to the point where I was a 288 - > senior executive there with Alex and Bob, I remember the very first 289 - > meeting I had in Steven Spielberg's conference room, which, yes, 290 - > I'd worked hard to get there and had done many projects. But I'm just going 291 - > to tell you straight up, the first time I was sitting there and Steven's, it's 292 - > all Southwestern Adobe style.

293 - > And I looked around, I was like, oh, my God. My life has gotten to 294 - > the point where I'm having a story meeting with Steven Spielberg in his private conference 295 - > room. This is amazing. And the chairman of DreamWorks, Stacy Snyder 296 - > is there, and the president of DreamWorks, myself, two writers, 297 - > writing producers.

And I saw something that I was 298 - > like, wow. And I'm going 299 - > to change the details, Jorn, just to be respectful of Stephen in the 300 - > process. Okay, I'm going to change the details a bit, but we're working on a 301 - > project that's like an Alien movie. And Steven has done 302 - > some big alien movie.

He spent a lot of time thinking about aliens, right? 303 - > So he said something where it's like, oh, you know what? The alien should come 304 - > through the wall, and then we're going to discover its weakness. Is this 305 - > right?

And everyone, of course, writes that down. Steven 306 - > Spielberg said, the alien comes to the wall. Weaknesses, right? And.

And then 307 - > someone who I'm going to say is like, the coffee boy was coming through the 308 - > room and said, actually, I feel like we 309 - > just saw that last summer in this other movie. 310 - > And what if it were actually this thing that the alien 311 - > was weak, it was his weakness. And I 312 - > thought to myself, that Coffee Boy will never be seen alive 313 - > again. He just contradicted Steven Spielberg.

This would be the 314 - > end of Jerry. He'll be in a dumpster out back. 315 - > And what was amazing is, without a 316 - > missed beat, Steven said, oh, yeah, that's good, we should 317 - > do that. And there was no feeling of, oh, 318 - > my God, someone contradicted Steven Spielberg.

It was rather 319 - > Steven saying, I want this to be great more 320 - > than I want it to be mine. And I'll tell 321 - > you, I saw this with some of the best designers, some of the 322 - > best writers, directors. They 323 - > don't have a possessive relationship with ideas. It's 324 - > not like you're in, this is my idea.

I must defend it to the death. 325 - > We'll do it this way. It is rather, I will defend greatness to the 326 - > death. And then you lose the 327 - > ego because you want the products to be great.

Whether it is an 328 - > app, whether it is a movie, a TV series. 329 - > That process, if you can create that in your company, it comes from the 330 - > top. Because once they see the leader is fine with their ideas 331 - > being improved, then everyone goes, oh, well, it's okay. It's not an ego 332 - > thing.

That sounds pretty good. Can I tell you another secret? 333 - > Oh, boy. Is this about cigars?

It has done a lot of 334 - > very cool stuff. But when you first said Steven Spielberg, do you know what 335 - > first thing came to my mind? The animated series. He did 336 - > Pinky and the Brain.

Pinky and the Brain. 337 - > Okay, you're going to laugh. That's funny. That was on your mind.

You know what 338 - > was on my mind today when we were going to talk, when I was thinking, 339 - > oh, I wanted to talk to Jordan today, was I think you did a recent 340 - > episode where you were interviewing someone who was 341 - > working in the finance. I think she was in private equity or something, and she 342 - > made selling finance. And you said, you know, 343 - > you don't need five apps to tell you you're broke. 344 - > Remember this?

Yes, I remember 345 - > listening to that in the car. I was going to the gym and I laughed 346 - > out lo. You know what? You're absolutely right.

347 - > Really cool. Let's talk a little bit about 348 - > Shuka, your 349 - > current company, your current startup. That's why you are here. As 350 - > an entrepreneur, you aim for the 351 - > coffee shop effect.

I 352 - > assume it's not being over caffeinated. What does 353 - > the science and your user data say about 354 - > ambient accountability versus solo focus 355 - > playlists? Let me answer that, but then I'm going to 356 - > expand it a little bit, if that's okay with you. Okay, so 357 - > for those listening at home or playing in the car, what Joran is 358 - > alluding to is there is an effect that's known 359 - > colloquially as the coffee shop effect.

360 - > In research circles, it's often called social facilitation 361 - > theory, the Hawthorne effect, other things. And it's based on this 362 - > idea, which is there is a 363 - > productivity boost, a measurable boost if 364 - > you can see someone else working and, you know, 365 - > you can be seen working. And whether that is 366 - > the negative side of that is, well, it's surveillance. It's like, oh, 367 - > everyone can see me.

I have to work. Or whether it is, hey, we're doing 368 - > this together. It's inspiring. You can debate that, but there 369 - > is a productivity boost you get from that.

Now, I think what 370 - > Joran's getting at, because he wants to laugh a little bit at me, is when 371 - > I was a film executive, I had to read a lot of 372 - > scripts, a lot of books. You were continually getting 373 - > this flow of things coming at you from people who 374 - > want you to buy it, Right. Will your studio please buy my idea, 375 - > my pitch, my treatment, my. My video game rights, you know, 376 - > whatever.

And that means you read a lot. And 377 - > I'm not a great writer, but 378 - > there is a coffee shop, a Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf that 379 - > is across Sunset Boulevard from the Directors Guild of America. 380 - > And it is famously known as this writer's coffee shop. 381 - > And when you walk in There, all the MacBooks 382 - > are out with people writing on their laptops.

And it's not 383 - > incredibly social. It is not like people are just running around talking to each 384 - > other all the time. But there's an energy in that room that's really interesting because 385 - > in one corner, you have that weird old guy writing 386 - > who's written, like, three studio movies this year. His quote is a million dollars 387 - > a script.

But he still comes here in his 50s or 60s, because it's his 388 - > habit. He loves the energy of this room. Maybe he's been there for 20 years, 389 - > whereas there are other people who just got off the bus from Iowa, you know, 390 - > or from Wichita Falls, and they are 391 - > writing their first TV pilot. So 392 - > what's interesting about that coffee shop effect, and then I'm going to move on to 393 - > a broader point, is I would go 394 - > there to read.

Even though I was not a writer, 395 - > I would go there to read because it was inspiring to me. On weekends when 396 - > I had, like, six hours, eight hours of reading to do, to be there among 397 - > so many people who are trying to do something with their lives, 398 - > all of them are trying to write something great. And that is something that, you 399 - > know, with Sukha, that we wanted to recreate where you have the ability, if you 400 - > want to participate in a group chat, to you Know, turn your 401 - > camera on, see other people.

It's a very simple idea 402 - > of that African proverb, we go 403 - > together, we go further. You know, if you want to go fast, go alone. If 404 - > you want to go far, go together. Now let me 405 - > expand that a little bit, which is the why 406 - > of what I do.

And actually the most important reason that I'm 407 - > sharing a lot this year is what I've learned about flow 408 - > states. Because we began talking today. And 409 - > for those of you listening, I appreciate your being here because this is really the 410 - > closest thing to my heart. I 411 - > believe that all of us have something great inside.

And the question 412 - > that you're going to answer in this lifetime is, will you get it out or 413 - > not? And there are some very strong forces 414 - > in this world to make sure you do not the people who make 415 - > distractions, the trillion dollar companies that hire some of the 416 - > best behavioral psychologists, some of the best designers 417 - > from the best engineers, their business models to 418 - > steal your life. Because they don't want you to create that startup.

They don't want 419 - > you to come with that new idea. They don't want you to even write that 420 - > book. They want to have your life so they can sell it. 421 - > So if you are out there listening and you have that thing inside you 422 - > like, I refuse to die with this idea 423 - > still inside me, then that tug of war 424 - > for your life you really have to look at.

Because on one side you have 425 - > those trillion dollar ideas paying the biggest paychecks to the smartest people 426 - > tugging, and on the other side of that rope, 427 - > it's you alone. 428 - > So you need to have people around you and tools that help you 429 - > to actually become who you could be. Because you don't want to end up 430 - > that 80 year old guy or girl sitting on the sofa scrolling and double 431 - > tapping and telling people how you could have created that company, you had 432 - > that idea for the app, you could have written that book, because that's 433 - > miserable.

And by the way, no one wants to be around that person. 434 - > They want to be around someone who tried. You may fail what you are 435 - > contemplating doing. You come here to listen to this podcast because you have 436 - > something you believe you can do.

You may not succeed, 437 - > but if you try and fail, that is noble 438 - > and people can respect that. But giving your life away, 439 - > there's no nobility in that. So that is why I talk a lot 440 - > about flow states and how to block distractions and how to 441 - > get out the great thing inside you. And that's why I was really excited to 442 - > come on this podcast today.

Because I think the 443 - > people listening here, they want to do Something with their lives, 444 - > and I love that. Back to you, Jorn. 445 - > I actually realized that I also used this effect of 446 - > being seen, because with a friend of mine, I'm doing like one 447 - > hour a week. We call it the hour of the Skunk, where 448 - > we just go online on a meeting, webcams on.

449 - > We both work on the things you really don't want to do, 450 - > like tax filings, 451 - > all the administrative trivia. You just have to. 452 - > Yeah, I love that in German. Die 453 - > stunde Distincties.

And so have 454 - > you. I've not heard an episode where you talked about body doubling. Is that something 455 - > we should talk about now? No, no, 456 - > no, actually.

Actually, I do it all myself. Like the owl of the 457 - > skunk. It's all me. Oh, it's just you.

I thought you were on webcams together 458 - > with your friend. Yeah, exactly. So. So I'm there, he's 459 - > there, and we both work on different things, but we force each 460 - > other to do the stuff we don't want to do.

You know, like the book. 461 - > Eat that frog. Exactly. That's the idea behind that.

Eat the 462 - > frog. There you go. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

So 463 - > the technique that Jorn is referencing is commonly known, and it's very popular 464 - > with neurodivergence, popular in ADHD circles, 465 - > of turning on your webcam, working with one or more people. 466 - > And it's not that you talk, it's not that you interact, but it's just a 467 - > way of having a sense of presence. There's someone else there, as I do 468 - > the thing that may be super annoying to do or I've been procrastinating 469 - > on, and you eat the frog.

You do the thing that's hard. 470 - > You, I guess, spend an hour with the skunk. 471 - > Exactly. Sometimes I feel like that.

472 - > I think there's a lot of interesting stuff in here. 473 - > But let us move to next question. You shared that 22 474 - > minutes can be lost, regaining focus after interruptions. 475 - > How does Shukra reduce this, like, 476 - > context switch tax in practice?

Oh, 477 - > good question. Okay, so, as you know, I love stories. Let me 478 - > tell you a story about how I discovered this. And then I'm going to go 479 - > into more of the neuroscience of it and how it can be applied.

Right. So 480 - > I live in Austin, Texas. You know where this is very well, because you've lived 481 - > in Texas. I was flying to San Francisco, where 482 - > the next day I was going to meet with my team.

And on the flight 483 - > I thought, I'm going to mock up. I'm going to go into Figma, mock up 484 - > this idea for a feature well, enough that I can Demonstrate it tomorrow, 485 - > and then actual designer can pick it up and finish it. 486 - > I got on the flight, and there's an Alaska nonstop 487 - > from Austin to San Francisco. We took off.

They announced the WI 488 - > fi was out, and we landed about 15 minutes later. 489 - > And I thought, the engine has fallen off. Something bad has happened. We lost 490 - > hydraulic systems, and we're in Dallas.

We didn't go anywhere. 491 - > I looked down at the little clock on my MacBook. Over 2 hours 492 - > and 40 minutes had gone by. I had no 493 - > concept.

Time had moved. We were in San 494 - > Francisco, and my designs were done. And I was 495 - > actually quite proud of them. And 496 - > I thought to myself, I couldn't tell you if the drink cart came by.

I 497 - > couldn't tell you the name of the guy in the seat next to me. I 498 - > had no concept of any of these distracting things around me, 499 - > but I had this great feeling of being in control of my life. That night. 500 - > I thought to myself, I'm going to get off the plane, grab a sandwich in 501 - > the hotel lobby, go up to my hotel room, and try and finish the designs.

502 - > In reality, I called a friend of mine and said, hey, I have a free 503 - > night in San Francisco. Do you want to have dinner? And that felt 504 - > amazing. To not be behind, but to start, be ahead.

505 - > And at the time, I did not know the term flow state. 506 - > Now, I'm sure there are many people listening who are flow 507 - > masters, and they know all about flow states. But for those who 508 - > don't, or maybe have heard it in passing, let me just do 30 seconds on 509 - > what a flow state is, that we're all on equal footing. Okay?

510 - > There was a Hungarian American psychologist, Mihai Csik 511 - > Nai, and he had a strong thesis. 512 - > His thesis was man high performers in these 513 - > different disciplines, inventors and athletes and 514 - > artists, they get into these 515 - > concentrated states where they do the things that make them famous, the things 516 - > that change the world. And they describe these states in very similar 517 - > ways. What is that state?

How does it work? 518 - > So, like Prometheus from the mythology, he wanted to go 519 - > up to Mount Olympus, steal some fire, and bring it down to the rest of 520 - > us. So when he did his research, at the end of it, he wrote a 521 - > book, and the book is called Flow, and that is the 522 - > seminal work on this. It is from whence we get the term flow states.

And 523 - > he said this was the most beautiful metaphor I could use 524 - > for what I found, which is, we are all on the river, 525 - > paddling to move ourselves forward. But if you align your 526 - > boat with the current, you go faster and you go 527 - > further, because it magnifies your efforts. And that's what these 528 - > people do. Now, in the intervening decades, 529 - > many smart people have expanded on his research and said, oh, this is the 530 - > thing.

There is a way in which you could be more in control of your 531 - > day, more in control of your mind and your energy to do things. 532 - > Super helpful. If you are an entrepreneur, a solopreneur, 533 - > if you are working on things on the side, if you have knowledge, 534 - > work to do, like you may be a developer, you may be a designer, you 535 - > may be an author, and this is 536 - > what I am passionate about. Suka, which you referenced 537 - > and I appreciate you bringing that up.

Suka is ultimately 538 - > a flow state app. I don't call it that all the time because not everyone 539 - > knows what a flow state is. We call it a Focus app. But what it 540 - > is is we looked at the research and Mihaly did an 541 - > amazing job saying, here's how you know you're in a flow state 542 - > and here are the techniques that these high performers use 543 - > to get into it.

And we just said, what if there was a simple website 544 - > with a play button right in the middle that did most of this for you? 545 - > And I can go into what some of those things are because people can do 546 - > this. They don't need my app or anyone's app. If you're interested 547 - > in having control of your life, creating your startup better, 548 - > creating whatever it is you're working on for your team better.

549 - > Mihaly said flow states seem to be 550 - > characterized by loss of track of time, which I experienced. 551 - > Maybe you weren't. Have you've experienced a flow state, right? Yeah.

552 - > Yeah. Okay. So you lose track of time, distractions are blocked, you're 553 - > very focused on the task at hand. You do it at a very 554 - > high level.

Your return of energy 555 - > from the task is much higher than things that drain you because 556 - > you can look at it and say, oh, I've done something of meaning. 557 - > And when he talked about what are the things that help you get into a 558 - > flow state and stay there, he said, number one, 559 - > everyone that he spoke to could get into flow state on a 560 - > task that he thought was meaningful. No one gets into a flow state like 561 - > paying their bills or returning stupid emails or 562 - > filing taxes, right?

You don't get a flow state. When there was 563 - > a famous basketball player in this country, Michael Jordan, who 564 - > had this quote where he said, when I'm in the zone, it's only me and 565 - > the ball. And what he was saying, which zone is another word for 566 - > this flow state. He's saying, I can reduce my world down to 567 - > what is important and all that's important is I control this ball to go where 568 - > it needs to go.

The stands are not important. The scoreboard's not important. The 569 - > defenders are actually not important. All that's important 570 - > is I move this ball where it needs to go.

571 - > And this is a guy who did stuff that 30 years later is 572 - > still in the highlight reels for the best basketball in the world. 573 - > And Picasso wrote about that too. He has a great quote about, I 574 - > was up all night and I forgot to pee. No 575 - > bio breaks and I didn't drink water.

576 - > But hey, look, I made some progress on Guernica. 577 - > So Mihaly said, what you're doing has to be meaningful. You 578 - > have to be challenged. You have to have skills that apply.

It's not Michael Jordan 579 - > painting and it's not Picasso playing basketball. You have 580 - > to have some feedback. You have to know you're not 581 - > pouring energy into a black box with no idea if it's working. 582 - > Picasso has to be able to stand back and say, this huge canvas 583 - > that I'm creating.

Am I starting to realize this vision I have in my head 584 - > of what is the horror of war or Michael Jordan looking at the 585 - > scoreboard and saying, okay, I'm going to win this game. This is what I 586 - > wanted. So as this applies to Suka, what I 587 - > built is I just said, without downloading an app, 588 - > without doing a lot of things, how can we take what Mihaly wrote 589 - > and make that available? Just a simple play button in the center of the screen.

590 - > So music helps people 591 - > get into flow and stay in flow. You brought up Jorn how a lot of 592 - > research is 15 to 23 minutes to get into 593 - > a flow state. You don't just sit down, say, I'm in flow, and you're deeply 594 - > in flow. It takes a few minutes, like music playing, 595 - > focusing.

If you get interrupted, it's another 596 - > 15 to 23 minutes to get back to that state. Right. 597 - > So there are a number of components. We can talk about them and I'm happy 598 - > to do so, but I've been talking for a long time now.

I want to 599 - > give it back to you. But that is really what I think is the secret 600 - > sauce of our episode is how can you harness 601 - > a flow state to do the things that propel your life and your team's 602 - > life forward? 603 - > Two add ons to that. What really helps me is at 604 - > one point listening to a lot of those 605 - > background music on a commonly used 606 - > video app that is like working jazz, relaxing jazz, 607 - > something like this.

I have almost. I'm almost constantly wearing 608 - > headphones for that simple reason. Because I have like two very 609 - > loud boys just behind this wall. And so I really 610 - > need to do that.

And a second piece that I found 611 - > really helps me focus is interaction. 612 - > And actually I also do realize that that this 613 - > now maybe for a month or two, works 614 - > for me with AI, with large language 615 - > models, because I assign them roles. I assign them 616 - > not, not really personalities. Like they don't have like funny 617 - > voices or something, but they do have a purpose.

And then you can 618 - > work with them like in a, in an, 619 - > in an idealized team. Because I found some research. 620 - > If you not only set up, for example, 621 - > let's say ChatGPT is the most used one. If you not only set 622 - > up ChatGPT and give it a prompt, but if you really set up a 623 - > personality, something that helps you towards your goal 624 - > and then have a group of different people who have different angles, 625 - > those virtual people, then you can get a much, much better 626 - > result.

And that's what I'm doing. And that also newly 627 - > helps me get into flow. That is so interesting. 628 - > Number one, my hat is off to you that you are that thoughtful about 629 - > your flow practice.

That's awesome. 630 - > And that is interesting to me what you said about 631 - > having that interaction that specifically keeps, you know, gets 632 - > you there and keeps you there, helps you doing your best work. 633 - > It's actually something I'm going to talk about with my partner later today because we've 634 - > been working on our, you know, essentially GPT, your, your 635 - > assistant in Suga and 636 - > I would love to think more about that. That's a great idea.

Okay, what should 637 - > we talk about next? Well, when we're done with the interview, 638 - > I can show you some insights. 639 - > You talked about Michael Jordan and Picasso. I'm very sure 640 - > they are not the reference customer.

And if they. In case of 641 - > Michael Jordan, if he's using flow, he's 642 - > not stating it outright, but what's your biggest validated 643 - > use case so far? Like developers, designers, 644 - > writers, solos, any surprising activation 645 - > metrics that predict. Okay, 646 - > I'm going to tell you a couple things that I found interesting because in running, 647 - > you know, this for years now and talking to a lot of members, 648 - > I know that our biggest cohorts are knowledge workers, right?

Which are 649 - > often developers, designers, writers, you know, like 650 - > people who have multiple hours a day 651 - > of sitting on a laptop and doing something and if 652 - > the desire is to do it better, to do it faster, 653 - > that is where flow states are very helpful because you stay in the thing. You 654 - > don't context switch going between things. You don't 655 - > try and multitask, which is not really a thing it's just monotasking with 656 - > context switching.

And there are a couple practices 657 - > that I have seen validated by a number of people. This is not 658 - > just theory number one is time blocking 659 - > and time blocking as it relates to your chronotype. 660 - > So chronotype, for those who don't know, is the concept that 661 - > there are times of day when you're more adept at doing 662 - > certain kinds of things. And I'll give you a film example because 663 - > it's a fun way of illustrating this and memorable, which is Ron Bass 664 - > was a huge screenwriter in Hollywood, wrote My Best Friend's 665 - > Wedding and Rain man and all these, like, movie star movies, Right.

666 - > He famously would not talk to his family in the morning. 667 - > He's like, I'm not the dad who's going to say, who wants pancakes? You know, 668 - > did you do your homework? Who needs a ride to school?

He's like, 669 - > I can't talk to you because when I talk 670 - > to you, I lose the ability to hear my character's voices. 671 - > And that's when I get paid a million, $2 million a script to do. So 672 - > what he would do is he knew his chronotype and he said, I'll get up 673 - > at 4 or 5 in the morning. So I have four hours to write 674 - > and I'm going to get up, not say hello to his wife, go to his 675 - > office and write.

Now, he knew that his chronotype was such. He was very 676 - > good with collaborative work. In the afternoon, after lunch is when he was 677 - > good, meeting with other writers, meeting with producers and studio executives 678 - > and talking about story, talking about. About things like that.

So that was 679 - > the first brush I had with someone who was very aware of their chronotype 680 - > and harnessed that. Why do I bring this up? 681 - > Because you can figure out your chronotype very easily. You don't need an 682 - > app.

You don't need to pay anyone. If you have a pencil and a 683 - > piece of paper and you can use a computer if you want, but I'm just 684 - > saying, it is this rudimentary, right? 685 - > Create a simple list for each day, 686 - > morning and afternoon, and just roughly say what you did and do it for 687 - > five days. Oh, Monday morning from 8 to 11, I worked on 688 - > blog posts and put down how you felt.

Tuesday 689 - > afternoon, I was working on coding from two to five. How'd you feel 690 - > when you look at that after five days or do it for two weeks, you 691 - > will start to see your patterns. Man. When 692 - > I write creative stuff in the morning, I have a clarity.

693 - > Then in the afternoon, I try and do it and I always feel blocked. Or 694 - > I feel like it's stupid. I have to rewrite it. Oh, when I write my 695 - > code late at night, because I think all code should be written in the middle 696 - > of the night, I get a lot done, but I end up refactoring it the 697 - > next day.

I should pay attention to that. And then you start to develop 698 - > a sense of when you should be doing certain things. So if you are a 699 - > solopreneur, if you're doing a side hustle or you're working from home, 700 - > you may want to have a meeting with yourself that you put in your 701 - > calendar. When you say, Hey, 2 to 4pm 702 - > Is my sweet spot for this, or 8 to 10 in the morning 703 - > is my sweet spot for this.

Block it in your calendar so no one schedules 704 - > team meetings with you. Zooms. If they slack, you know, 705 - > they know you're busy. And use that time for that thing 706 - > because you'd be amazed if you know you're good from like 7 707 - > to 9am at this thing.

You can get in that time done what other people 708 - > do in seven to 11. And you have to respect that. You have to 709 - > treat the time as sacred. Was her little jingle.

710 - > That's just my smartwatch. I have two 711 - > pieces to add to that. One of them is actually when you talked 712 - > about seeing or hearing the characters talking, 713 - > what came to mind was when I was in London, I was in the house 714 - > of Charles Dickens, and he actually had a mirror in 715 - > front, a big mirror in his writing room. And he got in front of it 716 - > and acted like his characters.

And then at one point, he knew 717 - > how this would play out. And then he got back to writing. And that's incredibly 718 - > cool. Second piece is.

I already knew for quite 719 - > decades that I'm a night person. I'm a night owl. I do my 720 - > best work between, let's say, 8:00pm, 20 721 - > and 2:00am the next morning. Yeah, 722 - > that.

That's my best time. But I do have some 723 - > blockers. That's time for best. Time for what, though?

Because that's 724 - > time for creative work. Yeah, it's. It's not for tax 725 - > filing, but it's for, like working 726 - > on the business, not in the business. Doing some preparation, 727 - > having some new ideas, what to do.

And basically that's the best 728 - > time for me to do creative work. That's awesome. You know that I 729 - > do have blocks in my calendar. 730 - > I'm not a philosopher, so I just call them get you done.

731 - > Fair enough. But I'll tell you a funny story. So there's a guy 732 - > that I've seen body doubling in Suka 733 - > about The last year or two, usually in the evenings or on weekends. 734 - > And this spring he posted in the group 735 - > chat, where you can share things you're working on and people can ask you, oh, 736 - > I finished my website, here's a link, right?

So it's a nice collaborative thing. He 737 - > posted in there, he finished his dissertation 738 - > and people asked him like, hey, congratulations, that's awesome. He said, well, you know 739 - > what? I'm actually a high school assistant vice 740 - > principal in Missouri.

And what I've 741 - > been doing is using Suka because at night I have maybe 90 minutes of 742 - > focus time in between family dinner and school 743 - > responsibilities and all that. So I have to use it really well. So at night 744 - > I have this 90 minute block and in that I've been studying for my 745 - > PhD in engineering. And then on weekends I do the same thing.

He 746 - > said, so I have to be very efficient with the little bit of 747 - > time I have when I'm not with my kids, I'm not at work. And so 748 - > he said, but don't get excited because I only turned 749 - > in the dissertation. I still have to defend it in front of the panel, like 750 - > two weeks from Monday or something. So that weekend, coming up 751 - > to the Monday, there are a number of people in the group chat.

They're like, 752 - > hey, Roy, good luck, man. You have this. We're excited to hear how it 753 - > goes. And on Monday, he was absent, he 754 - > didn't say anything.

And people started asking like, hey, has anyone heard from Roy? 755 - > How did it go with his defense of his PhD thing? 756 - > And Tuesday morning he dropped into the group chat 757 - > and he said, you may now call me Dr. King.

758 - > And people went crazy. 759 - > And it validated something. You began this episode by talking about this, 760 - > but I had to learn this. It validated the power of 761 - > community.

When we started 762 - > doing suka, even under an earlier name and developing this whole stuff, it 763 - > was a single player game. It was here, here are your tools. 764 - > There's beautiful music, there are timers, there's a smart assistant. 765 - > We'll block your phone, we'll block your website.

They're all the tools sitting there. But 766 - > it was alone. And I, as the founder, knew all these members, 767 - > almost like a hub, and spoke sort of model, but they didn't know each other. 768 - > And I had an idea.

Should people be able 769 - > to see each other, talk to each other? So I talked to a 770 - > couple members. I was like, is this a good idea or is this the most 771 - > distracting thing ever? Is this going to be terrible?

Right? And one 772 - > woman said this to me. She said, listen, Steven, I can go to the 773 - > Nike store. I can buy a pair of shoes.

They will sell me 774 - > a left shoe and a right shoe. I put them on my feet, I run. 775 - > It works. But there are a hundred 776 - > million people around the world in the Nike run club because 777 - > when you run together, you run further, you run faster, 778 - > you're more accountable.

The days that you 779 - > feel bad and your friends come by and pick you off the sofa and you 780 - > go running, you feel great. Are amazing. And the days when one of your 781 - > friends needs you to be there and support them and give them energy, they feel 782 - > even better. She's like, you should do it.

It is one of my favorite things 783 - > because now we do have experiences, like what I was saying with Roy King, 784 - > where you're part of a group of people 785 - > who are trying to do something great and there's an energy. Whether it's the 786 - > coffee shop on Sunset Boulevard, whether it's 787 - > a run club, there's something powerful about when you're around people 788 - > like you that are all trying to do something great. It lifts all 789 - > of you up. I 790 - > see.

For our audience, I was wondering 791 - > what breaks your focus most 792 - > like Slack pings, meetings, social media, comment. 793 - > We'll compile a cheat sheet down here. Steven, 794 - > actually, we would be now going into the ad break, 795 - > but we've been talking so long. How do you think 796 - > we call this episode one and then instantly start recording 797 - > episode two?

Fantastic. Let's do it. 798 - > Awesome, guys. Hope to have you back pretty soon.

And 799 - > actually, for you and me, it will be just a few seconds. For the people 800 - > out there, it will be a few days until the next episode comes out. 801 - > See you soon. Talk to you soon.

802 - > That's all, folks. Find more news, streams, 803 - > events and 804 - > interviews@www.startuprad.IO.

805 - > remember, sharing is caring.