Finance Automation for SMEs: Moss CEO on Scaling, AI & Fintech Lessons

WEBVTT 1 - > What if the future of finance isn't in spreadsheets or 2 - > banks, but in software that actually understands your business? 3 - > Today's guest helped build one of Europe's fastest growing 4 - > fintech platforms, empowering thousands of SMEs 5 - > to automate, spend, master real time budgeting 6 - > and finally ditch the chaos of manual finance 7 - > workflows. From corporate cards to E money licenses, from 8 - > P2 till backing debuffing compliance, this founder's story is 9 - > real redefining what finance ops can be.

Stay tuned. 10 - > This once a master class for modern CFO, 11 - > SaaS, builders and startup fans alike. 12 - > Welcome to Startup Rad IO, 13 - > your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German 14 - > startup scene with news, interviews and 15 - > live events. 16 - > Hello and welcome everybody.

This is Joe from StartupRate IO bringing you 17 - > another exclusive deep dive into the minds shaping the future of startup 18 - > finance and technology across Europe. Today I'm 19 - > joined by Ante Splitter, the CEO and co founder of 20 - > moss, a Berlin based fintech scale up that's 21 - > become a category leader in Spanish event management and finance 22 - > automation for SMEs German Kaimus. If you're 23 - > a founder, CFO or operator tired of juggling 24 - > receipts, budget approvals and end of 25 - > month chaos like everybody is, you want to 26 - > listen closely.

Musk is building the most intelligent finance 27 - > stack for European businesses, unifying everything from 28 - > copper cards and accounts payable to real time insights, 29 - > pre counting automation and embedded payments 30 - > all wrapped in a user first experience. They've 31 - > issued over 300,000 credit cards, raised 32 - > 180 million in venture capital from the likes of Vala 33 - > Ventures and Cherry Ventures and now processes more than 34 - > 5 billion euro in annualized payment volume, 35 - > all while maintaining Baffin's licensing and enterprise 36 - > grade compliance.

Ante brings a unique lens to this space 37 - > with roots in investment banking and venture capital, plus the 38 - > scars and lessons of building a high profile growth 39 - > fintech from ground up. Today we unpack his 40 - > founder story, most products, evolution and the high stakes future 41 - > of AI powered finance for SMBs. Ante, great 42 - > to have you on startup radio. Welcome to the show.

Hello Jern. 43 - > Likewise. Very glad to be here. This was quite an 44 - > introduction.

I really like that one. And of course 45 - > we'll dig a little bit deeper but let me 46 - > start out with asking. You were once deep in fines like 47 - > investment banking, VC consulting. What was the specific 48 - > pain or moment that make you say ah, forget spreadsheets, 49 - > let's rebuild finance ops from scratch for European small 50 - > and medium businesses at the typical frustration of 51 - > an analyst or investor with Excel doesn't 52 - > count.

Everybody experiences that. 53 - > Yeah, it's a honestly things came 54 - > Together while I was building my prior business together 55 - > with Anton, who is also co founder in this company. 56 - > And it was a marketplace startup. We 57 - > grew very quickly to decent size.

So within the first two 58 - > years we had more than 25 million revenue. And 59 - > everything was centered around expansion. 60 - > As you can imagine, what was really behind 61 - > was our finance setup. So after 62 - > 18 months, 18, 24 months, 63 - > we realized if we don't get a grip on 64 - > finance now, it's going to kill us, like literally.

65 - > Um, and then, so what followed was a significant 66 - > cleanup with temporary resources, you know, our 67 - > internal team trying to find invoices, receipts. 68 - > It was a total chaos and it took, I would 69 - > say at least six months to clean up and another six months to, you know, 70 - > properly close the books and run to the audit. 71 - > And, and I think this was the moment that that kind of sparked 72 - > my hate and passion, if I may say, 73 - > hate for the situation we had, but also the passion for 74 - > there needs to be a better way.

And then it took a while longer 75 - > until it really became the vision for Moss. 76 - > So it was not that right after I got 77 - > extremely excited to continue with 78 - > the finance suite. Instead 79 - > I spent a year in venture capital and, and they realized 80 - > it's a ton of other companies that have very similar pains. 81 - > And this is what together has led to 82 - > actually launching the company.

Thinking about the vision, thinking 83 - > about the first product. And yeah, now six years later, 84 - > we're still here. Actually, when you talked about 85 - > the love hate relationship with the finance 86 - > department, in my mind there was somebody looking very much like 87 - > Sigmund Freud wearing glasses and ask, could you, 88 - > could you elaborate at your love hate relationship there? But 89 - > let's forget about that.

You 90 - > guys must launch with bold ambitions, corporate cards, 91 - > automation and now full spend orchestration. What was 92 - > the first moment with friction make you doubt whether 93 - > European SMEs were ready for this shift? 94 - > Look, honestly, the market is still 95 - > fairly early if you think about the customer adoption 96 - > curve. Yeah, so the famous S curve, we're still pretty far on 97 - > the left.

And the main competitor has 98 - > been and still is manual 99 - > workflows, it's literally Excel, it's email 100 - > signature folders, especially with SMBs. So basically 101 - > everything that finance teams has found as a workaround to get 102 - > the job done. And 103 - > after we started, we managed to launch this 104 - > first incredible product. Yeah, and we were super lucky that we actually also 105 - > started with that product.

And it was a cards issuing platform, a 106 - > cards management platform, as you said. And then on top, the expense, 107 - > expense tooling. So how can I process the receipts, how can I connect with 108 - > finance and. All of those Things we may add 109 - > most people, 80, 80% here from 110 - > listeners at least on the audio podcast, are from Germany, Austria and 111 - > Switzerland.

But we do have a lot of viewers, especially on long 112 - > form YouTube, who are not familiar with the system. So basically you 113 - > first make your card expenses and then you have to 114 - > get also for the tax authorities, a receipt, an 115 - > invoice that matches this expense. And you have to do this depending 116 - > on your size and every month, every quarter, every year. 117 - > And it's a big headache.

It's one of the reasons I have fewer hairs. 118 - > Yeah, like one really interesting point. And 119 - > honestly, I only got to learn this a bit later. Yeah, I realize.

Yeah, it's 120 - > so obvious. But then somehow it's also so crazy. In business, 121 - > every single transaction, no matter if you spend five bucks on 122 - > a coffee or if you buy a lunch for a client or if you 123 - > invest hundreds of thousands or millions in machinery, 124 - > everything has to be administered. Like every euro, there is no black, 125 - > there is no hole in the, in the cash.

You know, like it's, everything 126 - > needs to be done. So having said that, the administration 127 - > is very significant burden. And now to get 128 - > back kind of to your question, the biggest, 129 - > the biggest point of friction, the biggest question for us was 130 - > will we be able to pass beyond 131 - > that cards platform and being a cards and spend 132 - > management company to becoming a much bigger finance suite? 133 - > Because of course, the vision was to go into this bigger finance suite 134 - > and the vision was to be able to tailor to accountants 135 - > and controllers for a much bigger, much bigger domain.

136 - > And, and this was a tough ride. Yeah. So once you have 137 - > the first product, when it works, getting to the next one is 138 - > almost like starting a new company. Yeah.

It was a pretty significant 139 - > kind of learning experience and point of friction for us. And also doubt. 140 - > Yeah. On how the European SMEs will react.

141 - > You moved from an investor to 142 - > operator, from finance theory to 143 - > infrastructure execution. How did 144 - > becoming a founder and especially a regulated fintech 145 - > CEO r reshape how you saw yourself and your work? 146 - > Yeah, look, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's very hard. Yeah.

147 - > The job is very hard and it's very demanding. I guess it's true for 148 - > many jobs, but I need to say it's particularly hard and demanding 149 - > based on my experience. And the crazy thing is 150 - > the role changes constantly all the time. 151 - > Yeah.

So with every new wave of hires, the, 152 - > with every new executive that joins the team, with every new 153 - > priority for the quarterly OKR cycle, for the strategy for 154 - > the next year, a new market entry, every new kind 155 - > of fire in a Team is always changing 156 - > your priorities as a CEO. It will always impact on 157 - > which decisions you take, what you focus on, et cetera, et cetera. 158 - > So what it really taught me is to become 159 - > multivariate.

Yeah. It sounds now very technical, but basically 160 - > be able to switch context very quickly. So now we're 161 - > recording this podcast. After that, it's going to be something 162 - > entirely different.

Yeah. I'm not going to have a coffee with a different 163 - > reporter. But also to take decisions 164 - > fast. Yeah.

Especially the small ones. But then take a lot more 165 - > time for the tougher decisions to shape culture. 166 - > Like things that never were on my agenda. Right.

As a consultant or 167 - > in any other profession, you're basically kind of getting 168 - > shaped by the culture and not you're responsible for shaping that 169 - > culture. So what I want to say is it's a 170 - > ton of setbacks. You have to live with those. You have to develop a 171 - > positive mindset.

Yeah. Otherwise you go crazy. And 172 - > you need a fighter attitude. Yeah.

It needs to be this 173 - > willingness to win, the willingness to fight, 174 - > because there is a market, there are players, and 175 - > you are the new kid on the block. Yeah. You want to achieve something great, 176 - > but you're nothing. You have maybe some cash from a 177 - > fundraiser, you have a couple of people on your team, and now you want to 178 - > become something big.

And this kind of 179 - > is, I think, one of the main ways 180 - > how it shaped me personally. Yeah. And also professionally. 181 - > Yeah.

Just trying to think this through. When you 182 - > talked about a new executive coming into the team, it's like when you have 183 - > a new team member, some of your jobs get 184 - > absorbed by this person. You get to do more, but also 185 - > you have to think more, because it's not that you need to write 186 - > email, abc, but you need to tell this person what 187 - > to achieve in a month, in a year, and so on and so forth. So 188 - > you need much more time to think ahead.

189 - > Yeah, 100%. And it changes dynamics because 190 - > maybe first you were also execution responsible. Yeah. 191 - > So maybe first you were the person that worked together with the team on 192 - > getting the job done, and now suddenly it's exactly what you said.

Suddenly 193 - > you're the context giver. Yeah. You're direction giver. You kind 194 - > of.

You're the control tower. To make sure we stay on course. You work 195 - > together, you help. Yeah.

And this is. And this is 196 - > constantly changing as the company 197 - > evolves. Yeah. From.

From good to bad. I actually like 198 - > the picture of the control tower. Because you're avoiding the crash. Yeah, 199 - > of course.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's. Especially with 200 - > tech companies where one of the key strengths Is to be 201 - > agile.

Yeah. So one of the key strengths is to learn fast, to break 202 - > things, to iterate from there. Which also means 203 - > realize where things maybe are not going not on the right path. 204 - > Yeah.

And I can give you, if you like, and give you like a very 205 - > clear example. We once 206 - > decided to focus on a customer segment that was a bit outside 207 - > of our ideal customer profile. And, and that 208 - > customer segment faced a little bit lower complexity in 209 - > finance, but actually, you know, 210 - > had some of the pains. And we went 211 - > after that segment and tested how is it 212 - > reacting now?

Once we had enough learnings to know what works, what 213 - > doesn't work. It's so mission critical to make sure that this information 214 - > tickles across all of the teams. Because the marketing team is going to 215 - > continue driving, driving traffic, they're going to train your 216 - > driving, investing and same on an outbound sales motion. They need to 217 - > know whether they should continue focusing or not.

So 218 - > it's really hard to keep this communication 219 - > best in class to make sure that everybody has the context 220 - > and knows what they have to do in this very quickly changing 221 - > dynamics. And I was wondering, 222 - > because I've seen quite frequently when I was still a 223 - > consultant in large companies that you did this with regular calls, 224 - > weekly or monthly, where people participated and 225 - > they worked through items, but actually they 226 - > tended to get bloated and bloated and you could hear the 227 - > people not paying attention and tapping in the background and all that stuff.

228 - > Have you found a better way to do that? You mean 229 - > with my team or for myself? Both. 230 - > Yeah.

So look, I'm really, really, really 231 - > bad at multitasking. Anybody 232 - > will confirm. So the only way is don't 233 - > even try. And this is going to avoid the 234 - > typing, it's going to avoid the confusion and if it happens, people 235 - > will realize immediately and it's not going to be supportive.

236 - > So for me personally, it's 100% presence. If you're 237 - > doing it, just be present, take your notes, be, 238 - > you know, pay a ton of attention, etc, etc. On 239 - > the other side, I guess there is, I don't 240 - > know, it's difficult. Right.

Ideally you don't want to have so big calls. Right. You 241 - > don't want to have calls where there are eight to 10 people on it 242 - > and especially not if people have the time to do other 243 - > stuff on the sides. Yeah.

Then it sounds almost like the audience is too 244 - > big. So maybe, maybe what we try to do is we try to 245 - > steer kind of ex ante on what is the audience, how 246 - > can we keep it to the ones that are actually working on it, designing it, 247 - > because then There is almost like no chance to escape. 248 - > I'm personally always torn between doing such calls 249 - > with, as you already said, the smallest possible audience 250 - > or working with stuff like to do lists where you just send around to do 251 - > lists.

But the problem is then always people lack the 252 - > context there or misinterpret interpret what is there. 253 - > Yeah, yeah, the context setting is really important 254 - > but I guess like the, the magic lies somewhere in the middle. 255 - > Yeah. So async, 256 - > Async, whatever can be done, especially in written form.

I think 257 - > sometimes written form can reinforce things and bring things also back 258 - > on the same page later really, really effectively. But then 259 - > when, when there is a, the benefit of a discussion, benefit of 260 - > questions, then probably it's better to, to just jump on the meeting. 261 - > Exactly. From our awesome audience, I would like to know 262 - > what moment made you believe in your startup, share in the comments 263 - > or tag us on social media 264 - > until your darkest day.

Moss made headlines with 265 - > layoffs like many other scale ups navigating the Fintech 266 - > winter. Take us to that day. What was 267 - > happening behind the scenes and what helped you push forward? 268 - > Yeah, it was horrible.

Honestly it was 269 - > horrible, especially because in total it took 12 to 270 - > 18 months. So we're not speaking about one specific day, we're 271 - > speaking about the whole journey that the company has to go through and that we 272 - > also had to go through. The context was 273 - > fairly straightforward. Markets turned, 274 - > we were over optimized on growth 275 - > and that setup was not fit for purpose anymore.

The burn 276 - > relative to growth ambitions and especially to 277 - > cash. And the years of Runway was not in line. So 278 - > we had to take action on the other 279 - > side. We also made this promise.

Right. So we 280 - > hired people, we kind of gave them an implicit or even 281 - > explicit promise. We're going to do our best to try to 282 - > make this company and you successful. Yeah, we're going to try to 283 - > coach you, to train you, to develop you, but we're also going to want to 284 - > create equity value in this company.

And then we had 285 - > investors that gave us a ton of money that we 286 - > also promised we're going to do something great with that money. It's a 287 - > gene is the right roi, you know, you should invest here. 288 - > So honestly, there was also not really a way out. Yeah, 289 - > I think if you're serious about those things and if you're more accomplished, it's kind 290 - > of on the, on the fighter side.

When it's uncomfortable, 291 - > you will still have to grind through it and. 292 - > Yeah. And then we just had to get our shit together. Yeah.

293 - > Honestly and literally we had to understand 294 - > where to think about what is the Future, that is a must have. 295 - > What are the strategic priors? What is the team set 296 - > up? What are the regrets?

And no regrets. 297 - > Calculate this through, you know, through business case sessions and 298 - > everything that's needed. Discuss with the board, discuss with 299 - > people, team. Think about all of the consequences that it means for 300 - > the employees.

You know, it's like, it's pretty significant. Yeah. Because 301 - > the market was in a downturn in general. So I would 302 - > say very heavy lifting and deliberate thinking 303 - > with many backs and forwards to then kind 304 - > of pull through.

And now kind 305 - > of the second wave, second phase starts. Yeah. So 306 - > now you kind of completed your first milestone. The 307 - > culture needs to get, needs to be brought back on track.

And 308 - > that's very, very, very hard. So here we learned our most painful 309 - > lessons. How, how to get the 310 - > motivation back when effectively there was a 311 - > severe issue. Yeah.

When effectively things failed. 312 - > And, and this took a year. Now it's very. Now it's great 313 - > again.

We are, we're so happy. Energy level is super high. Team is, 314 - > is motivated, pumped company grows. All of those things are now in 315 - > a good spot.

But to get there was a very slow, 316 - > gradual and painful process. 317 - > You already talked in the beginning that you have a co founder. Let's talk a 318 - > little bit about the team demanding dynamics here. Moss scaled 319 - > to 250 plus people, processed over 5 billion euro 320 - > in payments and added key leaders like jan 321 - > Stehler from N26.

What was 322 - > a painful lesson you learned about hiring trust or 323 - > involving your leadership team? Yeah. So 324 - > as I said before, the switch from 325 - > individual contributor, even like a co founder, mostly in the beginning 326 - > you just execute to a manager is pretty painful. 327 - > And I think the biggest kind of thing we had 328 - > to accept is it's hard skills and it's not talent or 329 - > soft skills or whatsoever.

Yeah, they come into play a little bit. But there is 330 - > a, it's a hard skill to manage other people 331 - > and to do it right. Yeah. And at the starting point, 332 - > what is, I think is the most important element is the hiring 333 - > process itself.

It's about the talent bar that is set. It's about the 334 - > expectations being very, very clear. What do we actually need? 335 - > What is the type of profile?

What should they have seen in the past? 336 - > What is the minimum experience level? What are also markers 337 - > that make me believe that this candidate is worth speaking 338 - > and is more kind of interesting versus someone else. Right.

Because 339 - > we have a. There is a huge market out there. Out there. 340 - > How does best in class look like?

You know, like I'm sure 341 - > you had the situation where you interviewed someone and you 342 - > realized I must hire that person. Yeah. It's like it's this 343 - > very rare case and the 1% or whatsoever where you're so 344 - > excited you think this is the perfect fit. So how can I make sure that 345 - > that best in class kind of is visible at scale?

346 - > This I think is really number one. But then what comes next 347 - > is the onboarding journey. And I think here 348 - > we made mistakes pretty significant and I think almost everyone has 349 - > made those mistakes unless they are already much further in their career. 350 - > It's so much context that is centered in your 351 - > heads that only you have.

It's. Yeah. Or your co founder or a couple of 352 - > people in the company that needs to make a transition. 353 - > Right.

So for the new leader to do a good job, 354 - > they almost need the same context that you have. Yeah. And 355 - > it's how to do this while everything is moving fast, while 356 - > you're super busy, while you need to kind of give them the right information at 357 - > the right time, keep them focused, you know, plug in other people, 358 - > I think is very, very, very, very hard. So I would 359 - > say the, the most painful lesson has 360 - > indeed been mainly around being really good 361 - > in onboarding.

It's too expensive if it fails. The first 362 - > few days, the first month, they're decisive in 363 - > what kind of habits people get in. And that's actually 364 - > we want to set it up properly so that people can really 365 - > understand who is there. It doesn't help if you get hired 366 - > and your boss is not there for the first two.

You 367 - > just by habit report to somebody else and when the new boss comes back, 368 - > you'd still talk more to the other person. That's for example, something 369 - > I have experience which is not great. 370 - > Let's talk a little bit about emotional toll. You're building 371 - > a highly.

In a highly regulated space with 372 - > aggressive growth and investor expectations. How 373 - > has this journey impacted your professional identity, 374 - > mental health or family life, especially as a 375 - > father? Yeah. It's kind of the magic 376 - > question.

Right. And how 377 - > I like to boil it down. Then I'm going to give you some specifics. Yeah.

378 - > But how I like to boil it down and challenge myself is 379 - > am I happy in the current setup? So how it's going 380 - > right now, is this giving me happiness and joy 381 - > or is it not? And fortunately I can still answer the 382 - > question with yes. Like I do not want to be.

I really want to 383 - > run this company. I really want to work my founders with all of the 384 - > colleagues here. I love the mission, I really enjoy working 385 - > on finance, etc. Etc.

Etc. There is a 386 - > big however though. Yeah. And the however is it has a lot 387 - > of cost yeah.

So first, first 388 - > in the first two years of my, of my first son and then also second 389 - > son got born roughly 15 months later. 390 - > I did not sufficiently see them. Yeah. So I had to pay the 391 - > price of not being sufficiently there.

And only 392 - > after those two years I caught up with some paternity leave. 393 - > Yeah. A month. A month to spend with the kids.

394 - > And this was not a good thing. Yeah. I want to clearly say this was, 395 - > this was a big cost to carry, 396 - > but I also miss my tennis routine, you know, in many cases or 397 - > I deprioritized. So.

398 - > So one part of the learning journey was also 399 - > it's not going to be sustainable. It's not going to work long term. And 400 - > in particular it will not. You will not be able to answer the question 401 - > of are you happy with the setup?

With the. Yes. If 402 - > there is no balance. Yeah.

So right now, 403 - > in the last two years basically revise some of those 404 - > decisions. Yeah. And how to approach it 405 - > and have found some more balance. It doesn't mean it's a good work life 406 - > balance.

It's horrible with two small kids and 407 - > the company to run. But the sacrifices are 408 - > very, you know, are different. Yeah. So maybe 409 - > it's seeing some friends less often.

Maybe it's 410 - > skipping a conference or, or, or a 411 - > dinner. Yeah, attack dinner in the evening. Maybe it's something, you know, it's like other 412 - > things you can still control to make sure 413 - > you don't go mad. Yes, I know 414 - > exactly what you mean.

That's also something I had to learn. For 415 - > example, what I. I've been adjusting my whole 416 - > lifestyle, my whole life. For example, before 9 417 - > I usually don't do any course because I drop off my.

My two 418 - > sons at kindergarten. Mondays I get to 419 - > sleep in because my wife gets also a day on the weekend. 420 - > And so I get up late, I do lunch and then I start working because 421 - > I do have a lot of customers and clients 422 - > in the US and they like to do really late calls. 423 - > And so on Mondays they can book me until like 23:00 424 - > o'clock in the evening on Mondays.

But you cannot do this 425 - > by starting at 9am Plus I also 426 - > learned the really hard way that you have to take off the weekends, at least 427 - > for me. No work, no work emails and 428 - > stuff like that. There was a tough lot, tough 429 - > thing to learn. But in the beginning you just work, work, work and then at 430 - > one point your body screams no, stop.

431 - > That's something exactly I learned as well. Guys, we'll be 432 - > back after a short app break talking, for example, about a make or 433 - > break moment. Founder misconceptions and market 434 - > surprises. 435 - > Hey guys, welcome back with Ant, the CEO and co 436 - > founder of Moss, a Berlin based fintech startup 437 - > that raised 180 million years so far from 438 - > investors including Cherry Ventures.

We linked it here in the show notes 439 - > our interview with Cherry and Peter Thiel's Vala 440 - > Ventures. Ante, let's talk about a make 441 - > or break moment. Was there a point 442 - > perhaps during the rebrand or during 443 - > regulatory approval where you had to 444 - > decide do we pivot, 445 - > pause or push through no matter what? 446 - > We had many of those moments 447 - > and the earlier you take them kind of the smaller the moment is.

448 - > This is kind of a little bit of the philosophy that we have. It's a 449 - > continuum. So by being on top of 450 - > data, by being on top of kind of the strategy and what actually 451 - > needs to be done, what the vision is, and then following through 452 - > with early signals, we had multiple of those points. 453 - > Yeah.

So we, we, we, we asked ourselves, for example, 454 - > shall we expand more internationally? Yeah, like, 455 - > very fundamental question. It's a massive distraction for all of the 456 - > teams. The product needs to be brought up to speed.

Ton of other, 457 - > other reasons why it's a distraction, 458 - > but also how it can drive revenue. The second big one was 459 - > do we really go for our own license? Yeah. 460 - > Do we, do we, do we really want to get regulated and 461 - > build the team that is needed to 462 - > run to be compliant or do we rely 463 - > on third parties?

There is a banking as a service providers 464 - > currently the question is when do we expand beyond spend 465 - > management? This is a pivotal moment for the company as the product suite 466 - > suddenly becomes much more comprehensive. So 467 - > yeah, there are 100%, there are those moments 468 - > and you will have to take a decision on do we do it or do 469 - > we not do it. And hopefully most of those 470 - > moments are happy moments.

Hopefully. It's not a 471 - > moment where you say we have to pause, we have to shut down the 472 - > market, we have to shut down the product, we have to stop the company. This 473 - > will be horrible. Of course.

I see. 474 - > Yeah, it's a steady fight. I would say that's also how 475 - > it feels here. Talking a little bit about founder 476 - > misconceptions, what did you 477 - > absolutely misjudge in the early days of Moss?

478 - > Either about the market, your customer, 479 - > or what it takes to truly digitize a 480 - > finance department. I can, I can, I can tell you a little 481 - > secret that maybe it's not really a secret. Don't worry, 482 - > it will be just between you and me and like 50,000 483 - > listeners on the podcast. Yeah.

Then that's 484 - > fair. That's okay with this. Secret is fair. 485 - > If someone has not.

Not misjudged 486 - > a ton of things, then they probably 487 - > didn't start the business. 488 - > The. My main point is it's. There is such 489 - > a huge ocean of 490 - > unknowns and there are so crazy big 491 - > complexities that if you take them, if you look at them 492 - > from a starting point, it's a wall that you cannot 493 - > climb.

There is no way you will ever launch 494 - > a company. If you knew all of the obstacles, 495 - > you would just not do it and no one would give you money for it. 496 - > Yeah. So one 497 - > example, we got super passionate about the broader 498 - > finance suite.

We had to find a minimum 499 - > viable product, though. And it's this kind of. It's the one shot 500 - > you have. You collect the seed funding, you build the first product.

501 - > You want to show some traction. If you pick the wrong piece, you're 502 - > dead. Yeah. And it can try to raise new money, but very likely it's not 503 - > going to work.

So we were 504 - > super nervous about it, of course. And then we picked something 505 - > that retrospectively was actually way too 506 - > complex. Yeah. So we thought we can launch 507 - > a next generation credit card like the first of its kind, 508 - > but not in a way like banks do it.

Yeah. American Express 509 - > or any other bank. 510 - > It was a platform where customers could issue 511 - > physical virtual cards with one mouse click. 512 - > Set limits.

Do like a ton of stuff that you cannot even do. 513 - > Yeah. Like this whole card issuing platform was just 514 - > a beast. And then on top, it had the finance suite.

515 - > Right. So how do I connect? How do I. How do I now attach receipts 516 - > to single transactions?

How do I assign accounting 517 - > categories? How do I do the coding? How do I connect with Data or with 518 - > NetSuite or with Exact. With Xero, like all of those ERP 519 - > systems, we entirely 520 - > misjudged the complexity of doing this.

521 - > Fortunately, the consequence was it was just very 522 - > painful and took a bit longer. But. 523 - > But it still kind of worked out and we saw many of those things 524 - > again. Yeah.

I remember the day when we're sitting in the Cherry 525 - > office. It was an off site. We always ask them if we can 526 - > work in their big boardroom. They have a nice room.

It's a bit 527 - > detached from the office. So we go there and then we discuss the serious 528 - > stuff. And I remember when we discussed the serious decision, when 529 - > are we. Are we like, are we going to leave the territory of Amex and 530 - > now expand into accounts payables or not?

Yeah. Do we want 531 - > to build a suite where customers can also process all of their 532 - > incoming receipts? Yeah. That's very different from card transactions.

533 - > And I also remember that when we took the decision yes. 534 - > We brutally underestimated the requirements. 535 - > So this is three years ago. We're still working on the product and expanding the 536 - > product.

I think the short and sweet answer is 537 - > if you don't misjudge to a certain degree, you're probably 538 - > never start. You should not entirely kind of fail, 539 - > but you will definitely misjudge. Yeah. 540 - > That's also what I felt when he said that if you really know 541 - > how big the problem is, you likely won't 542 - > start here.

543 - > You've described Moss as finance software 544 - > that actually works like your team does. What 545 - > trait in yourself once felt like a liability 546 - > and and ended up shaping Mosso's user 547 - > first design. Yeah. 548 - > So there is an interesting insight about 549 - > this, about this industry and also 550 - > here it actually took a while to get there.

Even though it's super simple. 551 - > Finance and finance software were almost the first 552 - > proper. It was like first technology. Yeah.

So amongst the 553 - > first. Yeah, let's call it like this. So what I want to say with this, 554 - > the ERP systems like SAP 555 - > or accounting software, it was the early days of 556 - > digitization, of putting codes into a piece of software 557 - > to run something in a digital way. Having said 558 - > that, they are their biggest, biggest, biggest pain.

559 - > If you boil it down to kind of 560 - > all of the pains that exist is the user experience. 561 - > Yeah. It's not that they don't offer functionality. 562 - > They have the broadest suite of functionality.

They had 20, 30 years 563 - > of time to build all single functionality. 564 - > Where it breaks is the user experience. It's not 565 - > state of art. It doesn't adhere to the standards, neither in 566 - > design nor in the flows.

It's 567 - > maybe less user centric, it's maybe more infrastructure centric. 568 - > Not all data is available kind of. 569 - > That's actually their biggest pain. So what we understood 570 - > and I'm so happy that our lead product 571 - > designer, Moritz, who was the only person in 572 - > that team when we started, got this very early, is 573 - > we will only be able to create this.

574 - > A very distinct and long term 575 - > differentiating factor. If we exceed 576 - > customer expectations on user experience. We have to 577 - > take an entirely different lens. How we look at those 578 - > workflows, how we design the platform, how 579 - > we incrementally optimize it.

Yeah. Over and over again, 580 - > small stuff, big stuff. To create this compounding effect 581 - > of a superpower. And I think in this 582 - > regard we are very proud and we know it's true 583 - > and the market confirms it.

Moss does have the best user 584 - > experience. If an, if an accountant, a controller, business 585 - > owner, a tax advisor, if they, if they want to have this 586 - > iPhone like experience. Yeah. You find everything by Yourself pretty 587 - > much the connections make sense.

You can find, you 588 - > can, you have the right settings that you need and that's an 589 - > objective that we widely have achieved. Yeah, entirely. Will be too 590 - > optimistic. Ton of stuff to still do but.

591 - > But much better than anyone else in the market. Mm 592 - > hmm. I was wondering 593 - > if I could ask our audience the same question. What was 594 - > one founder trait you've turned from a liability 595 - > to superpower?

Maybe even with your co founder. Let us know 596 - > on AX BlueSky threads or LinkedIn. 597 - > With over 5000 SMEs onboarded, 598 - > what unexpected insight changed 599 - > the way you understood CFO workflows, span 600 - > patterns or ERP integration pain points? 601 - > Yeah, there is.

So first I think it's important to 602 - > segment the market a little bit. Yeah. Now it's getting, I don't want to get 603 - > too technical but just for the, for the audience also to get a better 604 - > understanding. There are small businesses, right?

Micro 605 - > enterprises could be a solo trader, one person, could be two, could be 606 - > five, but basically a very simple and kind of 607 - > easy to communicate setup. Then there is the mid segment. It's the 608 - > companies to start with, let's say 10 employees and then go up to 609 - > 500 or thousand. It's kind of the traditional 610 - > kaimo as you said, the traditional SMBs to choose like English 611 - > words.

And then there is mid market enterprise 612 - > companies that operate globally, have huge organizations, 613 - > many entities, etc. Etc. 614 - > In that mid segment. And this is our core and this is where 615 - > kind of the, the biggest share of the GDP lies.

616 - > Yeah, this is kind of the biggest segment in terms of kind of the GDP 617 - > in business. The very surprising 618 - > insight was that they are not 619 - > zero digitized. It's not like 620 - > that. There is no software they use.

I 621 - > mean they use anyways accounting software and erp. But even 622 - > beyond that the point was it was very 623 - > unsophisticated single point software. Yeah. So 624 - > for example there is a tool that allows you to 625 - > build approvals.

So you as a company you 626 - > want to stay on top and control what people buy. So what you do, you 627 - > build an approval flow and now you want to buy something for 628 - > 10k. Someone needs to sign off and not doing this kind 629 - > of an accident or via email or via signatures. The only way is 630 - > to bring it into a tool.

The challenge though is if 631 - > you have one or two or three of those tools, you have 632 - > to manage your workforce on the tool. You have to onboard them, they have 633 - > to log in, they have to run the process and like who wants to 634 - > have three, four different tools to get the job done. 635 - > It's like it's a nightmare. So 636 - > the kind of.

The most interesting insight was there are tools out 637 - > there, but they have one big deficit. They don't 638 - > connect the dots. They are isolated pain 639 - > points. It's isolated solutions.

They are 640 - > not connected to the broader software landscape. 641 - > They are covering only fractions of the pains. 642 - > And this is an option for us to tackle. We 643 - > decided this is the way to tackle.

644 - > You've said Moss aims to be the most 645 - > intelligent finance stack for Europe's SMBs. 646 - > Paint the picture. What does that look like in five years? 647 - > Does it include Treasury AI, embedded 648 - > FPA, cross border FX?

Yeah. So now, 649 - > now I love speaking about the future, but it's also very 650 - > hard to predict. 651 - > Maybe starting first with the fundamental belief. Yeah.

And I think this is 652 - > what shapes like a lot of thinking for us at Moss and also for me 653 - > personally and my co founders. The first 654 - > layer that we tackle is the workflow. It's 655 - > creating a digital experience. Now, for 656 - > some, this might already be groundbreaking.

Yeah. But if we are 657 - > honest, it's only the baseline, it's only process efficiency. 658 - > Right. You basically can do the job in a more orchestrated way and maybe a 659 - > bit faster and a bit more automated.

The true power 660 - > comes from intelligence. Yeah. So how can I 661 - > digest that data and how can I use that data 662 - > in a way that makes people work smarter? 663 - > Yeah.

Not. Not just harder. And by 664 - > comparison, here would be. For anyone who is working with CRM 665 - > software and in sales, think about Salesforce.

Yeah. The, 666 - > the company, Salesforce, the product. 667 - > It's good if you can create a customer journey and a 668 - > buyer list and basically move away from a Google Doc, from Excel to 669 - > having it in Salesforce. But the magic is when you get all of 670 - > your KPIs, when you understand what the sales cycle is, 671 - > what the big deals are, when the follow updates are, when it automates your 672 - > ways of working, when it gives you the intelligence to say I'm on 673 - > track or I'm not on track.

And it's the same thing with 674 - > Moz. We are building the foundational layer and 675 - > we are moving very fast on that front. But once 676 - > we have done this, we'll move and invest much more into the intelligence 677 - > layer. Because we want our customers, we want the finance teams, 678 - > the business owners, to just spend as little time as possible with 679 - > admin and focus most of their time on the 680 - > activities that change and drive their company.

Yeah. And we 681 - > call it business partnering. Yeah. So you work with the team 682 - > to grow sales, to reduce costs, to improve margins 683 - > or whatsoever.

So having said that. Yeah, it's the foundational 684 - > layer. This really great workflows end to end across 685 - > accounting, across controlling. Very likely not just focused on 686 - > spend, what we do now in five years from now, very likely also focus on 687 - > the revenue side.

But then it's the layer on top, 688 - > it's kind of the cash flow forecasting, it's the budgeting, 689 - > it's a lot of additional use cases, effective cost 690 - > controlling, etc. Etc. That connect all of the dots in 691 - > the dashboard and then help businesses improve, help 692 - > businesses grow. Sounds pretty 693 - > good.

Sounds like you'll have some kind of AI 694 - > agent best controlled 695 - > via audio and you tell him make a casual forecast this 696 - > and this and this changed and let me know tomorrow what are the 697 - > implications. Yeah, yeah. So I love 698 - > that. If I may, if I may say, I we're so excited about the 699 - > AI.

AI kind of AI segment, 700 - > category, trend, whatever want to call it. And 701 - > one fun fact up front, AI has been 702 - > leveraged in finance since many, many years already. So 703 - > OCR, extracting information from documents and 704 - > categorizing it is basically a certain 705 - > form of AI and it's already in 706 - > most software since many, many years. What 707 - > fundamentally changed with the introduction of the LLMs and with the 708 - > power of the LLMs was to supercharge other parts and 709 - > connect more dots and more context and more information.

710 - > And yeah, so we for example right now are, 711 - > have a very, very powerful AI automation 712 - > platform. So let's say a customer submits an invoice. 713 - > 19 out of 20 actions that have to be 714 - > taken, such as, you know, the service date, the 715 - > account category, the cost center, like everything finance 716 - > needs to do for the transaction. 19 out of 20 717 - > the machine can do for you in an automated way and an 718 - > accurate way.

Yeah, and this is just think about this change. So just think 719 - > about you have to do one step out of 20. Yeah, it's a 720 - > very, very brutal improvement and it's just 721 - > starting. Yeah.

So on compliance 722 - > checks, there's so many other areas 723 - > where, where AI will supercharge the 724 - > offering and it's not necessarily going to be kind of just 725 - > an AI agent. I think it's almost like it's a 726 - > misused terminology. It will be part of the software suite. The 727 - > AI will enable a better workflow and better 728 - > insights for customers through a specific user experience.

729 - > It might be a prompt, it might be kind of just in the background, you 730 - > don't even see it. It's just, it's just, it just executes the job 731 - > or it might be a different ways, but it's kind of, 732 - > it is going to be part of the software. Let's face it 733 - > this is well, but I had in mind if 734 - > it's from a psychological perspective, easier 735 - > for person to interact with an AI 736 - > agent that at least has some personality. I'm thinking about 737 - > Jarvis here from Ironman or or 738 - > Skippy.

Sci Fi readers would know 739 - > them, but that's a completely different topic. If anybody out there is 740 - > researching on that or knowledgeable about it, hit me up Joe, 741 - > celebrate IO and we can talk about and maybe even find an 742 - > interview for you. Let's reflect a little bit for the 743 - > closing in the Future version of ANTO 5 years 744 - > older post series D looked back at this moment. 745 - > What would he say to you right now?

746 - > Yeah, so I'm thinking about what the future me 747 - > will say. Yeah, this is a very very good question. Yeah. 748 - > So I hope it will say stay hungry, 749 - > push, but don't stress out too much.

750 - > Everything will be fine. I hope this is what they will say. 751 - > Everything will be fine. 752 - > Great.

Awesome Ante. Thank you 753 - > very much. Awesome interview. Hope to have you back soon 754 - > and we'll now hop into the founders 755 - > world and talk a little bit behind the scenes 756 - > for our subscribers.

If you'd like to join us, go on 757 - > substack or YouTube, become a paying member and you'll have access 758 - > to access to the Founders vote. Thanks y and all 759 - > the listeners. Really really enjoyed. My pleasure.

760 - > That's all folks. Find more news streams, 761 - > events and 762 - > interviews@www.startuprat.IO 763 - > Remember, sharing is caring.

764 - > Sam.