Future of Work, DEIB and AI: How Absa Is Shaping Africa’s Next Generation of Banking Talent

Speaker A: Uh, hey everyone, welcome back uh to another episode of Talking Success. Uh, we've touched on talent a few times during the podcast over the years. Um, we had time uh, bank on talking about sort of their structure and sort of what they're looking at. We've had a number of other fintechs talking about their talent strategy. But one thing we've not really discussed um, is the world of banking. Um, and it's a very, very important part of the fintech ecosystem as we all know. So when I was very humbly uh, invited to go and speak at the ABSA Exco off site a few months ago in Johannesburg, um, I met a number of very interesting people. People but I also met KG who's with us today. Um, KG runs um, talent basically for the bank. Um, she looks at talent management and transitions which I think is a really interesting topic certainly around the transition side. So today we're going to touch on things like AI and the impact it has on workforce. We're going to talk about dei, um, but there's a, there's another letter, there's a, the acronym's got a little bit longer in the ABSA world which uh, we're also going to delve into. And um, I think this is more of a um, I suppose an insight into what happens or what's happening in the world of corporate uh, there's I think a lot of disruption happening across the world. We've seen a lot of retrenchments, we've seen a lot of right sizing of businesses that are now you know, moving people or replacing people with bots, um, with robots and with AI? Is that a reality? Is that something that uh, as an industry we need to embrace and we need to accept? Um, where is that balance between human and machine? Uh, where does that come in? How does that affect kind countries such as us here in South Africa where we do have high unemployment rates. What does that mean? Um, how do we ready our ah, existing workforce, your existing workforce for work of the future which um, I think is not necessarily the future. I think it's here now, uh, and it seems to be evolving at ah, just a rapid pace. It's almost impossible to keep up with. Every day there's a new product or a new release from one of the big AI companies. So that's my intro, um, a very long winded one. But I'm going to hand over to KG first uh, so she can do a bit of an overview in terms of what her role is because I probably didn't explain it too well and then we can talk and get into some pretty interesting and topical questions. Katie, over to you.

Speaker B: Thank you Darren. Um, thanks for inviting me to your space and uh, it was lovely um meeting you a couple of months ago and uh, quite interesting and insightful um, listening to you talking about um, the world of fintech and how that is disrupting the world of banking. Um, it's top of mind for us and I think uh, it's been interesting just to see the many uh, fintechs as well as other um, industries that are now starting to behave and sound like banks. So the lines I think are becoming blurry and uh, I feel sorry for the consumers because they actually don't know uh, who's who. Um from a product perspective. Um, I think we studying to all fish in the same pond uh when it comes to skills. So just in terms of um, my, my role at APSA, I've been with the organization for um 12 years by end of the year and um, I joined um as a chief people officer in the corporate investment banking and I've been in corporate investment banking for um yeah for about 22 years. Um, it's only the past two years that I actually decided to, to shift gears and, and try something different. And um, talent is something that I've always been passionate uh, about but also fascinated about especially in today's world of work. I um, think it's, it's, it's really um. I will use the, the, the phrase that my kids always use uh, uh when, when it comes to a situation where you know you're never ready. So they, it. I would say that it's the world of work is actually showing us flames now as flames, human capital practitioners you just don't know what to expect. And the evolution is happening uh so fast that um, you know we're playing a you know a catch up, catch up position. So I've been in this role for two years now and it's really looking after being the custodian of talent management. Uh from succession planning, from uh, talent acquisition. You know, how do we attract talent into the organization, uh, how to, how do we develop them, you know, getting them ready, future proofing them, making sure that they've got the right relevant skills. Um, um performance management is also important. How do we enable them to perform? We actually going through a culture transformation now and one of the things that we want to uh, you know we aspire to be, it's to be a high performing, to build a high performing culture. Um my role spans across uh the group, uh, we've got, uh, we operate in 16 markets, uh mainly in this continent, uh 12 of them are in this continent. And um, yeah it's something that has been exciting. Um, but at the same time as I mentioned, uh, with the world of work uh, evolving it has also been keeping me on my toes.

Speaker A: So we spent quite a bit of time um, at ah, the Excel session, talking about the customer of the future. Um, can we just change that a little bit and talk about the talent of the future? Uh, I know that's a very broad sort of question but from your perspective, from Bank's perspective, what does that look like? Let me phrase that slightly differently. So if you are going to speak to, I don't know how old your children are, but if you were going to speak to uh, maybe someone's going through matric or about to go through matric, and you were saying to them look, you need to study, you need to prepare yourself for the future of work. What would you tell them to do? Where would you tell them to focus?

Speaker B: That's a good question and I think it's something that is also topical. I mean um, I guess when I think about the um, education and learning institutions, um, it will be silly of them if they're not asking themselves whether the curriculum that they have today is relevant and is actually going to enable um, you know, uh, organizations in the future. So um, I think um, we, we have to appreciate that um, you know, skills are becoming uh, the new currency in, in this uh rapidly changing world. The rise of AI, um, you know, automation, digital disruptions that we are seeing happening. It's forcing us to think differently in terms of uh, you know, the kind of skills that we, we need to think about or we need to start building um, you know, uh, and not just as corporates. I think as I mentioned learning institutions need to think uh, differently. Um, governments also need to think about the role that they need to play, you know, to make sure that um, we uh, we build a future uh, of leaders that are going to be able to um, to resp those challenges that I've mentioned. So if I think about apsa, um, specifically, I mean when we, we look for, for skills, uh, we no longer go to your typical uh, competitor. Uh, I would not go to a bank actually to, to go and look for um, you know, uh, people when we think about talent, um, you know we're going into the fintechs, um because we thinking about the digital transformation. A lot of uh, Banks are actually going through a digital transformation. So you want people who have um, a, um, an understanding or even uh, fluency in AI technology. Uh, so digital and technical skills are becoming very important. You know things like your data and digital software. Uh, we are a bank so cyber security is quite important. So that's something that we also saw driving. But at the same time your hard technical skills are not enough. Just looking at um, the disruptions that we are seeing, the geopolitical disruptions to be specific. I mean that is also um, cascading into uh, the world of work. So your vocational and social skills are uh, quite as important. So things like collaboration, your adaptability, empathy, uh, we've just gone through just uh, come out of a very um, ah, difficult period during the pandemic. And that's something that is empathy is something that is quite important in a workplace. Critical thinking. As much as we appreciate, you know, the digital and AI skills, ah, helping us to solve things with uh, you know, with speed, there's also um, a need for us to also um, invest in things like critical thinking uh, which is quite important. So I think you have to take a hybrid approach when you think about the skills of the future.

Speaker A: There's so many different tangents. I can go on, off on this schedule honestly. Um, I think one of the many that popped into my head was we're talking about um, the bank looking at different skills or different talent pools, um, not necessarily from the um, banking community but more from the fintech. And I think that throws uh, an interesting question into the mix which is on the, I'm going to use this word lightly uh, because I'm not a fan of this word culture because I don't think it's really a definable word. Um, but when I think, I think there is this maybe misconception that actually you know, banks move slow and banks can't innovate and it's impossible to get anything done. And um, you know, people from the fintech community are going listen, that's kind of not what I'm used to. I'm used to working in these really agile, fast moving, fast paced environments where you know we, we build stuff, we break it and then you know, we fix it afterwards. Now clearly with you know, governance and uh, you know being a bank you can't necessarily go and kind of build something, stick um, in the market, get it to 20 million customers. I go oh, sorry, didn't work, um, or there was a lap. So what, what are you using? Um, to maybe change that narrative and to try and I suppose attract the Talent that maybe is very happy in that kind of environment because you know, let's call it what it is. Uh, you know, absolutely is a corporate, um, it's, it's a very large corporate. So how do you go about that?

Speaker B: M a very good question. It's a very good question Darren. And I think it's something that we also mindful about. And I remember having this conversation with my fellow colleagues and we're talking about it from a point of AI, that AI is here and uh, you know, just doing some reflection in terms of where APSA is at, in, in line. Uh, I mean are we ready? Is the organization ready to adopt? And uh, the conversation um, you know, went on to a point where we actually um, appreciated the fact that one, we are a young organization. Right? Um, and when I say young, I'm talking about youth, as in your mid-30s. Um, so what we are seeing is a lot of our uh, employees are actually fast tracking um, their fluency in terms of AI and technology and they are leaving behind um, you know, the, the older generation and that is currently sitting at a middle to senior management. And the reflection points were around how do we then start accelerating our efforts in order for us to actually become that environment. We, we are actually um, accommodating of a talent cohort that is already um, ahead of the curve in terms of uh, AI fluency. As an example, how do we, how do we um, create a culture in an organization that would actually be able to attract a, you know, that kind of talent cohort coming to the organization. So it requires us to take um, a concerted effort, um, in terms of shifting certain things. Um, because we're dealing with a young population, it's about uh, instant gratification, right? They don't have time to come in and go into an environment where there's one, there's hierarchy and the decision making tree is so long that by the time you get to a decision, the world out there, the lives of your fintechs have already moved on, they've already launched the product and so forth. So you are dealing with a scenario where it's a young, it's a young talent that is really wanting to get involved. Number one, they say, involve me, right? Irrespective of the fact that I don't have much experience. Involve me because I'm gonna bring a diverse perspective in how you look at things. But also the speed in which they're expecting us to make decisions they don't have. They don't have. You know, uh, the uh, what's the word. Um, they don't have the, the patience, the patience of actually waiting on us. Um, and, and then because of the war for talent, I mean we are seeing uh, not only the fintechs, but even your traditional direct, um, you know, uh, competitors also taking advantage of that. If, if we don't make a concerted effort in terms of changing our culture to enable us to attract the right talent and also retain the right talent, we are going to be left behind. And um, yes, we are a bank and there's a lot of governance that uh, come with it. Um, you know there's a, it's, it's, it's a, it's, it's one of those highly regulated, um, uh, industries. Uh, but you have to strike a balance. And especially because we can see that there are lots, lots of exciting things that are coming out of the fintechs. And not only the fintechs by the way, even your, your telecoms, um, you know, and now we're starting to see your retail. I mean, uh, I wouldn't mention the name, but there's one of the big retail houses that have announced that they're going to actually compete with us directly. You know, so it's really something that is forcing us to think differently and reposition and repurpose ourselves as an organization more so from a culture perspective. And in fact we are going through that culture transformation journey at the moment. And one of the things that we are doing is to um, identify those frictions in the organization that are pulling us back and making us um, show up late in the market when it comes to some of the solutions and the products that we offer.

Speaker A: Uh, and it's interesting what you said. I think the fintech industry certainly here in South Africa and definitely in Kenya, I can't speak for all of the countries, but certainly in those two, has matured, has matured a lot, um, in the last decade since I've been uh, working in the African context, um, on the talent side it's gone from we're going to be very cool and we're going to wear uh, you know, slacks and we're going to wear slops. Um, and we're going to go and stand at a conference with um, you know, the presence of regulators and we don't care because we're a fintech. Um, that shifted, that shifted a lot. Um, certainly over the last two or three years where again in South Africa, as you quite rightly mentioned, you know, it's very, very heavily regulated, one of the most regulated countries in the world and there needs to be a lot more um, sort of focus on actually the professional side of fintech. This is no longer about. I'm going to go and create an app for my bedroom, um, roll it out and I'm going to get a million users. That doesn't work as low as much as we'd love it to work like that. Well maybe not from a banking perspective but that's just not reality. Um, we were with uh, the Reserve Bank a couple of weeks ago, my, my fintech association hat and uh, talking around stablecoins and this was a very, very serious conversation. Um, but it involved you know, we had banks and we had fintechs sitting together, talking together, engaging together. Um, and it was, it was quite amazing to see uh, you know, wind the clock back six, seven years. Every conference that I attended was all about you know, fintegration and the banks versus the fintechs and the fintechs. Um, and I think that's actually come to a reality now. Um, uh, you know, in terms of attraction and you mentioned this. So you've got the attraction then you've got the retention. Um, again I think the whole sort of ecosystem has matured and no longer is it about a foosball table or having an espresso machine. I don't think that's a value add for someone. Um, I don't think they're going to join one organization over another. But other than compensation, what are the other sort of pull factors? Um, I really want to get onto the belonging in a minute. Um, and maybe this is a nice segue into that but what are the other pull factors? Um, outside of the monetary side?

Speaker B: Yeah, look, in fact that, that, that for me it's, it's, it's a, it's a hygiene factor. Right. The, the monetary piece. I uh, think for me it's one of those things that you have to, they're non negotiable, you have to sort that out and then you put on the side. But they're no longer a differentiator. All right. The deciding factor for um, you know, talent, wanting to join organizations. First thing that they ask it's about, they want to understand who you are as an employer. What's your stance, what do you stand for? Um, it's all about purpose. Right. And they want to understand because if you can appreciate, I mean Africa, the, I think they said about um, almost 70% or if not the upper 60s, uh, percentage wise, um, it's youth, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: So they've got a different way of looking at um, employment. Um, so you gotta be in a position where number one you're clear in terms of your purpose, uh, what you want to do, um, and the role that you play as an organization. It's all about um, you know, purpose over profit. So you start with your purpose and then everything else will fall into place. And that's how we position ourselves as absa. So to answer your question, um, you have to order. People are looking for flexibility. Um, in fact we are starting to see more and more people wanting to do more than just one job. They call it gigs. Right? So you need to allow that flexibility. And it's interesting, I've just come out of a meeting now where we're talking about hybrids, hybrid ways of working. Right? And actually just looking at ways ups, uh, from that perspective. And how is that you know, feeding into you know, our evp because that's something that we are ah, actually we saw that a number of people preferred to come to work for us because of the flexibility that still exists. Right. So once you take that away, um, you are obviously going to put yourself in a position where people are going to start questioning whether you are that employee of choice, you know, going forward. Um, so flexibility. And then the other thing that they're looking for is experience. People are looking for the. So, so they're wanting to come into an organization where they are not boxed, you know, uh, by titles and by hierarchy. They want to get involved, they want exposure, uh, you know, they want to be in conversations where they can also influence uh, the direction of travel. Um, and we underestimate actually, um, you know, how much they may not necessarily have the experience but they certainly know there's a lot, I mean access to, to, to, to all these digital platforms. There's a lot of information, right. And we underestimate how much knowledge they have. Um, all they're wanting is to actually bring that into practice. So, so I, I think, I think we starting to think differently in terms of how we structure ourselves and as well as um, organize ourselves in terms of ways of working uh, pushing uh, the uh, cross functional teams, uh, to really encourage that kind of um, you know, that kind of ways of work.

Speaker A: I imagine it's, it's, it's a challenge though because whilst um, you know there may be that sort of upward pressure or pressure from um, kind of the workforce that's coming into the organization or in their you know, 20s, 30s that are kind of pushing that pressure up, um, but top level, at senior management level, uh, exco level um, they're not going to be, let's, you know, call it what it is. They're not going to be in their 20s and 30s. Right. They're going to be sort of telling careers they can be career bankers, um, that maybe, uh, need to sort of shift their mindset as well. Is that an uphill battle? Is that something that you feel actually because of the time and the effort that you and the, uh, ABSA team put into talent and how important it is that you're kind of winning that war as, you know, the war for talent, but you're kind of winning it intern as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think for me, you. You can't. So there's a role that we play as, As a function, as a human capital, um, you know, function in terms of bringing the thought leader, leadership and, you know, best practice in terms of how things need to be done. At the end of the day, talent, uh, comes into an organization because of a manager out there, a leader out there who's a talent magnet. Right. They are being attracted to the organization because they want to work for a particular leader. So there's a lot of work that we do in terms of shifting the mindsets and behaviors, uh, from a leadership perspective, because the other ones who are going to attract as well as retain. Right. So we can have all these beautiful, good things, um, you know, that we, we talk about, uh, in terms of what needs to be done. But, um, at the end of the day, the leader is the one who actually plays a significant role in, in terms of one, creating that culture that is inclusive, um, uh, even from a generational perspective, but inclusive also in terms of thinking different perspectives. Right. Um, it's not easy, especially because I think the, the speed in which the world of work is evolving is actually quite scary. So we are dealing with legacy issues. We are dealing with leaders who are so entrenched in, In a particular way of leading and managing teams, and that has to change.

Speaker A: Uh, I can only imagine the, uh, kind of challenge that is, uh, in a group kind of the size of absa. You mentioned sort of the diversity side. I do want to talk about that because, uh, again, I do some research before these calls, and I know that there was a survey run internally a, uh, year and a half ago or so. Um, and if I'm not mistaken, 68% felt the workplace, uh, embraces diversity and fosters belonging. Right. So again, my understanding. Please correct me if I'm wrong here or, uh, you know, my research hasn't quite, uh, hit the mark, but rather Than a DEI strategy. Sorry, DEI strategy. You've now got a di, D, E, I, B strategy. Right, which is the B is belonging. Talk to us about that. Because there's a lot of companies that have mission statements and values and you know, these days probably most of them are created through you know, chat, GPT or something. Um, but ah, that doesn't work in the way of a bank. Uh, I've got to know how kind of banks operate over the last few years. Um, better than I have done in my entire career. But um, where did that come from? What does, what does it actually mean to people? Belonging to.

Speaker B: Yeah, so it's, it's actually not, it's not a new concept. It's something that um, you know, globally there's some other companies or even countries or continents that are very much focused on the dib. Um, I think there's history to, to us perhaps only focusing on the DEI because it was very much pushed from a compliance perspective, especially in South Africa because of our history. And we, we felt that you know what, there's one aspect of doing it which is from a compliance and, and I think we've been on that journey for some time but we wanted to be um, deliberate in terms of uh, you know when we talk about the dib, it's not just from a numbers perspective. We wanted it to, to be a, a driver that ah, you know we're going to be pushing aggressively in terms of, of um, really shifting um the way we are seen, the way we are felt, the way we experienced and belonging. For us it brings that human element. It brings a human element. It brings as we drive in collaboration, as we're driving, you know, this human centered um, culture, um, belonging. For us we felt that it was a, a very strong ah, um, not just a word but it's something that is lived by. We want people when they come into the organization they can actually feel it. It's similar to when you talk about a culture. Right. You know the smell of the organization is when you walk in you can actually sell it, feel it, belongings. It's exactly that. It's something that you, it can only be described through experiences. You know, when people tell their stories they can actually uh, bring that out in terms of how they feel about the organization. When they form part of teams, um, do they. That is you are, you are included. There's one aspect of it but the belonging. You do feel part of the family. It makes you feel like you're part of the family, if I can put it that way. So for us we're not just talking about transformation, the inclusion piece, but we actually mobilizing it with intent and purpose.

Speaker A: Someone, um, uh, many, many years ago gave me a really good analogy and it was, it was around the eyes, specifically around um, you know, women in, well in fintech. Um, and you know, diversity is about sort of inviting um, people to the dance, but inclusion is about actually asking them to dance with you. Um, and I thought that always stuck with me for many, many, many years. Nadia, I'm giving you a shout for that, uh, because that was yours, not mine. So um, okay. I think it's important though that there has been um, obviously because of you know, history and it happens in other markets as well. It's a bit of a tick box exercise. You know, how many of this do we have? How many of this do we have? How many, you know, um, but, but where you gel it together, where you actually include people and you take into consideration different ethnicities, different religions, different upbringings, different um, ways of life, different education and then in a room and you get people in teams and squads that can actually think a little bit more, um, sort of holistically and I suppose from a, from a bank perspective given how many sort of types of customers you serve, that's really important.

Speaker B: Yes, really important. Look, look, let me. Darren, I think uh, I'm going to share with you just to give you um, a flavor of our, our dib strategy. Right? And as I mentioned we, we, we want to move beyond compliance and, and really you know, focus on the experiences, people, experiences you touched on customers. It's also important, right. Uh, we want to make sure that when a customer walks into a branch and they can actually feel that this is a place um, that I can trust. You know, um, I'm being treated with respect and dignity. So uh, some of the things that we've actually included as part of the strategy. You know, we've got a piece around people with disabilities as an example and we've got a piece around generational diversity. I think I touched on that. And with a focus on youth, we also focus on women. We've got a number of programs that we are driving that are actually uh, you know, empowering women, not just internal as in where we are, ah, you know, uh, creating commercial roles specifically for women. Um, I'm talking even in, in terms of the role that we play in the community when we think about your SMEs, right? We, we are intentional in actually funding the youth, uh, youth owned um, businesses as well as women owned Businesses. Um, we've also have, um, you know, we've been driving the, the diversity of thought and neurodiversity, which is a very, you know, it's a new concept and it's something that we are, we are pushing hard because we want to make sure that, you know, that we're not leaving anybody behind. Obviously, every time I think that's also another evolving space. Right. So every time as you think that you've got it, then there's something that emerges that you also need to make sense of of. I'll give you a proof point. Um, we've just been um, recognized uh, by Forbes as a, um, as a globally top hundred, you know, employer, best place to work for. But we've also gotten a second accolade to that, um, as the best place, uh, for women. And last year, um, we were, I think we came 323rd position in 2024. This year we came 66th.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And, and, and I actually spoke to, to, to the guys at Forbes and I said, um, you know, it's great to see that we've made progress, but I needed to understand what were the themes that were coming out. And it's really just, you know, the, the, the, the, the concerted effort that the organization makes in terms of uh, as I mentioned, the. A lot of sponsorship and, and funding that we do externally, uh, it's quite deliberate and focused on those, uh, you know, populations as I mentioned, but internally as well, you know, um, it's not something, it's when we say that we are inclusive and we want to create an environment, a sense of belonging. You know, there are things that we are doing specifically for women, uh, to ensure that um, you know, they feel that they are part of the journey. I'll give you examples. You know, when we have meetings, um, uh, we, we, we, we decided that when it comes to meetings in the morning, we need to be mindful because a lot of women, most of them are mums and they're dropping off kids.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: It's a school, you know, so try to accommodate and, and have your, your meetings, uh, you know, meet, meet mid morning or during the day. And, and same applies to after hours, uh, you know, where you used to have, have a, uh, boys club. You know, they talk about, uh, if it's not a particular spot, uh, you know, before they go into a conversation, just be mindful that you may talk about something that is not necessarily inclusive of, you know, uh, other groups. And so, so it's things like that that really just go a Long way.

Speaker A: And, and you know, by the way, there's, there's no sort of, uh, you know, funding going on for, for this podcast. But what I will say is I had the pleasure of meeting your exco team who are diverse. Um, not only sort of, you know, uh, roles that they carry out, but, um, everything about them was diverse. I was very, very, very pleasantly surprised. I didn't actually know what I was walking into. Um, it was probably one of the hardest sessions I've ever run. But that's, that's one for another day. Um, the, the people I've met.

Speaker B: I just remembered something. Sorry, go on. Your something. 1. One of the pillars that we have on or employee value proposition. It says come as you are. Now that says a lot.

Speaker A: Elaborate on that a little bit. Come as you are. What do you mean by that, though?

Speaker B: It doesn't matter who you are, you're welcome. This is an environment where we actually are inclusive irrespective of your background. Um, and I guess it's, it speaks to, to that diversity of thought. Right. Um, and, and, and um, you know, just in terms of how people see things. And it's more saying, you know, we've created a space, uh, that is safe and uh, you're more than welcome to share your thoughts and no, uh, one is going to frown upon you. Um, and you know, so, so I think for me the come as you are is really just being more from a personal, at a personal level. Um, you're not going to be judged.

Speaker A: Wow. Oh, that's. It's incredible to see. I think there's, there's so many takeaways. Honestly, kj, I can go on for hours on this, but I appreciate we're kind of almost out of time. There's been quite a few takeaways. If I'm going to summarize. Um, probably the single biggest one for me, um, maybe for the fintech industry. So anyone that's listening here is. There's another competitor, there's someone else after your talent pool. This is not just about your, um, competitors, your local competitors, your um, other fintechs who are operating in the market. Uh, we've spoken a lot about the remote brain drain or the physical brain drain from South Africa and other parts of Africa going into other markets and other markets paying dollars or whatever it may be to attract talent. Um, but had you considered that the banks are now looking at, at your talent as well? Uh, something very interesting to, to kind of keep an eye on something we've spoken about at length. Certainly, uh, over the last six, seven months is this, you know who's going to win the, the battle not, not necessarily for talent but who's going to win the battle for banking. You know in, in, in South Africa and in the rest of the continent there's been a lot of talk about the, the fintechs, there's a lot of talk about the telcos, there's now the retailers as you quite rightly mentioned. And I think the one of many things I took away from conversations with you and the team was I wouldn't bet against the banks, um, and I wouldn't bet against the red one. Um, if I was a gambling man, which I'm not, um, I would probably put some money on uh, the red. This is not financial advice by the way. Please don't anyone make any investment decisions based on what I'm saying. Um, but I think the banks um, have the advantage over fintechs in two ways. One, they have the balance sheet and second, secondly they have the time so for a bank to be able to sit there and go actually we're going to see what's happening in this market. Um, we're going to see what's happening with AI, we're going to see what's happening with blockchain, we're going to see what's happening with cross border payments. Um, we don't necessarily need to rush into this. We've got great teams who are looking at this. I know you know Rob and then, and the team in the blockchain side very well and they're the incredible job and with Ripple now and ah, May three. Right. Um, so uh, yeah I think I would kind of you know just keep a BDI if I was a fintech on what's happening in the world of banking because there might be some surprises um, before we, before we sign off um, any sort of passing comments. So there's going to be a lot of people listening to this from within the fintech industry, from, in the community, in banking as well, um, who may be sitting there going look, I'm kind of okay, I know what my role is and you know I've got my future panned out but maybe I'm, I'm a bit worried about my kids. Uh and let's, let's be real, we all look after our kids. That's kind of our priorities in life. What advice would you give them to give to their children? Because it's ever evolving. No one knows what's around the corner.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, look um, Darren, thanks. It was a Great, great conversation indeed. And I agree with what you've mentioned earlier. I think just to give people uh, some sense of comfort, I uh, think the, the, the employers and, and the banking industry, I can speak uh, for, for, for, for, for them. Uh having been in banking for, for a long time. I think we, we, we are shifting in terms of how we see ourselves. You know we see ourselves as part of a wider ecosystem, um, one that connects you know as I mentioned the youth, I think the youth is the leadership of today, um, the entrepreneurs, um, if I think about the role that uh learning institutions need to play and I think we need to start really uh connecting and partnering and collaborating in terms of solving for um some of these challenges, uh, I think partnership with the fintechs, um, it's something that I see us actually getting into so that we can actually make uh, the cycle bigger uh, in terms of solutioning and we do have a challenge. I think as a continent we are lagging compared to other, other markets where they are head from an AI perspective and there's a lot of infrastructure that we need to put in place. There's a lot of uh, legislature that we need to obviously think about uh because I think you need to take that um, you know, balanced approach uh, from an ethics perspective as well. So I think there's a role that we need to play as, as a bank, um, as a banking industry. Um, but certainly for me is we are investing not just in people who work for apsa, uh but it's in the future of the African talent as a whole. So there's definitely great conversations that are happening and some of those will manifest whether it's from an education system or from an employer perspective. But we are certainly starting to collaborate to solve uh, to future proof our children.

Speaker A: And um, I think that's a really good note to end on. Um, whilst I think we, we both, and we all, anyone we speak to is kind of ah, very embedded and uh, loves the industry, financial services, fintech, uh, we, we do need to look at you know, the, the, the future leaders as you mentioned a few times. Look at our children, look at our children's children. Um, none of us have got crystal balls. I think had we sat around this table 10 years ago and talking about what AI could do, we, we would probably be laughing at each other. But um, that is the world, that is where we live. There's innovation happening every minute of the day, um, across all corners of the planet including our continent. And it's an absolute privilege to be involved in it. Um, kg, thank you so very, very much. Um, I usually end off by saying if anyone wants to find out more about business, have a look at the website, but I don't think I need to do that here. Um, pretty sure. Anyone listening who knows who ABSA is, If you don't, then just. Just Google it or stick it into chat GPT and you find it pretty quickly. Um, kg, thank you so very, very much. I know it's a crazy time of year, um, and I look forward to seeing you very, very soon.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Darren. Uh, just as a reminder, APSA is the home of Africa's top talent.

Speaker A: There we go. Therehere we go. Absa always gets the last word. All my guests always get the last word.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Lovely to see you again.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. All the best. It.