BEST OF: Torin Ellis: DEIB: More Than Just Checking Boxes The Role of Empathy in Leadership

Speaker A: How important is it to you? Diversity of mindset, Adam.

Speaker B: It is important that when you are looking at an organization and you are trying to solve for DNI that you are checking D and I at every value point in the organization. So what's the issue with your position? I don't see an issue in your position. If I have a black and white candidate and the white candidate is better, we all things equal. I don't see any issue in that. Do people that you talk to have an issue with that?

Speaker C: No.

Speaker A: The

Speaker C: welcome to the podcast where we introduce you to incredible humans who share their journeys with the mission to inspire you to harness your own inner tenacity to drive your life and career forward. And now your host, Adam Posner.

Speaker A: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. We're bringing the best in, the brightest in the world of business, marketing and personal growth to help you harness your inner tenacity and drive your career rear forward. Folks, I've been waiting to have this guest on for a while. I've seen this dude speak on stages. We've hung out, conferences, events. He is the man. Torren Ellis is a human capital strategist who leads a progressive consulting boutique with laser focus on diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging. A lot of people leave off that B and not for savings, but we'll get back to what that B really means, what belonging is all about and risk mitigation. He embraces a collaborative approach built on transparency, actionable strategy, rigorous performance monitoring is the reason why some of the world's most forward thinking companies have trusted him to make D a promising, not punitive in their workforce. So we're going to get to it. We're going to unpack his story, his journey, and um, the message that he wants to spread to the world. Tor and Ellis, welcome to the podcast, man.

Speaker B: The podcast, I love that. Uh, thank you so much for, you know, grabbing that point, emphasizing the last line, promising and not punitive. So many individuals feel like when we are talking about things that are critical, when we are talking about things that hold people accountable, that it has to be a punitive conversation. And I firmly believe that it can be one of promise, it can be one of beauty. And I'm happy that you and I are having it on today.

Speaker A: Yeah, man, it's, it's been a while and, and here is how the connection went down. We were at, uh, we were at Transform. I'm in a happy hour. I see this dude walking across the, the lobby of the Wynn Hotel and I, I think I literally yelled across the the casino at you. I'm like, dude, when are you coming on the show? He's like, well, when are you inviting me? I'm like, well, I'm doing it right now. And, and that's, and that Unleash was fun. Were you, uh, I mean, Transformers? Were you out at Unleashed last week?

Speaker B: No, I was not. Uh, I was in court because if you look at my background, you see that my walls and stuff are not done. I had a contractor to run out on me, so I went to court last week and unfortunately, I still have not gotten to the resolve that I'm looking for. But no, no one leaves me.

Speaker A: You think the threat of court would get people to move their ass, but it doesn't. So let's get to it too. And listen, anyone could go, they could go to your LinkedIn, they could go to your website, which will link up later and learn a lot more about you. But I love to really understand this, if you don't mind sharing. Let's, let's, let's hit that rewind button. Let's hit the this is your life. Tornellis what? I'm always curious, what did your parents do for a living?

Speaker B: Oh, wow. You're gonna go there. Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah, I am, I am. I am gonna go there because I think it really sets the found. Like just for example, while you're thinking about that for a second there. My parents are both retired New York City Board of education teachers. 30, 40 years in the system. My brother's a guidance counselor. And I'm the furthest thing from any of that. So it's always interesting to see how people, where their influences come from, how did they get moving, groove into the place that they're in now.

Speaker B: Yeah. So part of that connection point is shared here. Uh, my mom was an educator, has been an educator her entire life. Uh, I always say to people, I don't say it as much today as I used to, but, uh, I had two parents that loved me. I didn't come from a broken home. I had a mother who worked extremely, extremely hard. So as an educator in the day, she would work and do some part time jobs in the evening to make sure that she had complimentary income to what she and my father were, were making. My father worked for Sears in Roebuck. And so we grew up and moved around the Midwest. Every time Adam that we moved, we were moving because he was receiving a promotion. So mom's career was stable. Education grabbing a new school in what city we were in. Father was climbing that corporate ladder inside of Sears and Roebuck. And a fun fact, CS and Roebuck got started because of the lack of access for black and brown families in retail stores years and years and years ago.

Speaker A: Yeah, let's talk on that for a little bit too. What was it like for you to. You know, I talked to a lot of folks who are military kids and they're traveling around base to base, but I really haven't been able to, uh, dive into a conversation around folks that have moved because their parents are business. What was that like for you? So you're, you're 56. You got about 12, 11 years on me. So we're talking, you know, you were in elementary school and early 70s. Like, what was, what was that like moving around the country back then? Like, going from school. Was that hard for you, man? Or were you extroverted, able to adjust and acclimate into schools?

Speaker B: Yeah, I don't even know if it's fair for me to say extroverted because today I say I'm, I'm more of an introvert. I love being quiet and, uh, in an observation type capacity. So I wouldn't use that word. I would say that simply adapted, you know. We started, um, in Florida, where I was born, South Florida, Hollywood. Uh, and when the, the note came around and said it's, it's time for you all to move, I, I mean, I'm three. So I don't really have much say in the equation. Uh, and, and I never really had much say in the equation. What I will tell you is that every city that we went to, we found a way to get into a nice community. Uh, we found a way, my parents found a way to put me into what they felt was going to be a safe and rewarding educational experience. Um, I actually found a way to act out. Even though I had two incredible parents that loved me, a mom who was an educator, I got to a point in life where in junior high school, high school, I wanted to fill my oats, as they would say. I would challenge some of my instructors. Torn, be quiet. Oh, uh, you be quiet. I'm talking to the teacher in this particular way. And it's not something that I'm necessarily proud of. It really was that moment of trying to show that I fit in with the wrong side of the classroom. So. So what I will tell you is that no matter what city we were in, uh, I found myself able to, to make some things happen. It was the last city, though.

Speaker A: Adam, which one was that?

Speaker B: Ah, Davenport, Iowa. So I grew up in Toledo, Ohio. Columbus, Ohio, Fort Wayne, Indiana, and then Davenport, Iowa. For my formulative years. It was the last city, Adam, where I experienced my first memorable, um, racist encounter. I had a newspaper route. And back then you had to collect the money for the newspapers. Back then you had to deliver those newspapers. Rain, sleet, snow or.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're like the mailman.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And so I knocked on the door. Uh, I'll never forget, I knocked on Mr. Quinn's door and Mr. Quinn came to the door with a shotgun. And he opened the door, he cocked the shotgun. Mhm. And he said the N word. If you ever step in my yard again, I'm going to shoot you.

Speaker A: What did you feel at that moment?

Speaker B: Fear. Angry. Because I will tell you, even in Davenport, Iowa. Corn detasselin. Not a whole lot of representation in the city overall. I never felt like I didn't belong. I could go to the community, the county fair, I think it was called. Never felt like I didn't belong. I could go to the mall where the young people hung out all weekend, no problem. Pizza store where I worked. Baskin Robbins where I worked. I mean, you think about how cool I am now.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I'm scooping ice cream in high school. I got on a pink polo Baskin Robbins shirt.

Speaker A: We're gonna have to find a picture of that.

Speaker B: Kind of hard to be cool. But I never felt like I was out of place or in a place where I wasn't wanted. And when that experience happened, I said, um, so this is some of what I've been learning and hearing about. And the last thing that I'll say about that. Adam is my father to this day. My father passed away on Father's Day in 2009. Literally, um, not figuratively literally. On Father's Day, 2009. My father never knew that that man up the street used the N word to refer to me.

Speaker A: What do you think he would have done?

Speaker B: It could have been problematic because it

Speaker A: was a conscious choice for you not to tell him.

Speaker B: Yeah, my father was a, uh, no nonsense individual. Um, he was no nonsense in how he raised myself and my sisters. He was no nonsense with the people in the church. He was no nonsense with the people at work. He wasn't a bully. But my father was no nonsense. And so I chose not to tell him because I don't know what that problem would have. I don't know how that problem would have been resolved.

Speaker A: Did that, did that eat you up inside it? Did you have an outlet with other, other black friends that you're able to talk about this with or white friends. Did you, did you, were you able to talk about it with your, with your, with your dudes?

Speaker B: Yeah, I did. I told my best friend. He's still my best friend today. He knew. His mother knew. I asked his mother not to tell my parents. Um, because, you know, and when I say afraid, afraid in the moment, but not afraid later, you know, I would still move up and down the street.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know, I was like, f. Mr. Quinn, I would throw his newspaper behind the bushes.

Speaker A: You know what I'm saying?

Speaker B: Like, he, he would have to look for his newspaper. I, I, I wasn't kind and gentle about it. So in no way was I passive. But when you are, you know, staring at a shotgun, I'm not looking down the barrel. But when I'm staring at a shotgun, big corn fed dude, like fingers the twice the size of mine. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm afraid in that moment. But after that I was like, you know what? But it's not a big deal, but I just knew that I had to handle it. And even to this day, Adam, I will tell you, you know, there were, um, moments where I would get up and run. I don't use Facebook as much as I used to, but there were moments where if I got up at 2 in the morning, I would run 2 miles. If I got up at 3 in the morning, I would go run 3 miles. This is no exaggeration. There's a particular route in my last community, not this one, but there were, there was a, uh, uh, person who owned a vehicle, had a confederate flag on the vehicle had a confederate flag in the, in the, um, yard. Every single time I ran past that house, I always had my guard up. I would turn my music down.

Speaker A: Yep. You don't draw attention.

Speaker B: Eyes are open. I'm paying attention because it was the signal of that flag. I didn't know what that family would do. Especially at 2, 3, 4 in the morning.

Speaker A: Right. Um, you see a black guy running down the street at three in the morning.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I don't operate with a whole lot of fear, but I am much more aware as a result of Mr. Quinn opening my eyes them years ago.

Speaker A: How did, how did, in the house, right? Like, how did your parents, how did they bring you up the right way to be, you know, loving? Of all people, what was it like at home?

Speaker B: You know, I will say that, uh, again, I felt like my parents worked very hard. Um, I think my father, you know, a lot of families will say that, you know, their Parents told them that they had to be twice as good. My parents never told me that I had to be twice as good. That wasn't a phrase, that wasn't a uh, recommendation, that wasn't a prescription that was given in my household. But what my father did tell me was that it may not be easy. And that is no excuse for you to not do what's necessary. It hard then you need to figure out how to get around that. And so whether or not. So I'll give you an example. My father would go to Sears, um, and in the break room he would put a sign up that said, my son will cut your yard for $7 no matter where you are in the city. And in a car you could get from one side of Davenport, Iowa to the other side in 15 or minutes. Wasn't far. But with a, uh, uh, a ah, laundry line strapped around your stomach, tied to the handles of a lawnmower. And I'm dragging the lawnmower on my 10 speed because my father's got people all over the city wanting me to keep their grass.

Speaker A: He's put you to work, man.

Speaker B: Seven bucks, man. So, so when you ask how was it my parents, we had chores.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: We went to church on Sunday. Um, I played the drums when I was um, in junior high, high school. In church, um, I mean just to me a normal family. I don't know it to be any other way. Yes, my best friend, he grew up in a single mother household. But I didn't see that as being drastically different than the fact that I had both of my parents. I think, um, I'm an individual even today I'm an individual that takes people at face value. I'm not, I uh, try not to be judgmental. I didn't know again, I didn't know that word then. But he was my best friend. His mom made the best tacos on Friday before we went to the football game. You know, I knew that I had parents that loved me. I knew that I had a lot of people in church that would allow me to come over to their home, spend the night. Different things. It was a normal, to me it was a normal childhood, which contributes to why I'm able to move the way that I move now. I can vibe with a person like you yelling across the room, when are you going to be on the pod, yo? Whenever you want to do it. I love that. You know, I don't have all of these pretensions and reservations because my parents just simply said, um, people are people and we're going to love them as much as we possibly can.

Speaker A: Do you, if you're looking back on it now, when you're in your, you know, in your teens, in your early 20s, were you, were you somebody still now who stands up for the underdog, who looks out for the little guy, stands up to bullies, you know, always looking to do the right thing? Was that something that was always ingrained in you? I mean, you mentioned before the rebellious side, but I feel like the values, right, like we all have it. That's part of growing up. Believe me, I was an asshole. I went through my shit when I was in my teens and everything. But the way we're brought up to recognize wrong from right, those are the values that are ingrained. You know, those are etched, I call them like my internal ten commandments. Right? Those are etched in me from my parents and my upbringing. Like, was that something always, always top, top of mind for you, who you are?

Speaker B: Yeah. Honestly, I can't say that, Adam. I just don't know, um, that I was really in a lot of situations when, like I was a cool dude in, in high school, junior high school. I wasn't in class. I wouldn't expect anything else, that stuff. But yo, I was cool. Like, everybody loved Torren Ellis. I mean, uh, my friends were far and wide. We grew up with four different cities. It's a place on the map for those that are listening, called the Quad Cities. So you had Davenport, Iowa, Moline, Illinois, East Moline and Rock Island. There were bridges that connected us. I had friends in all of those cities, like, so I didn't really, I wasn't really in the experience or in relationship with the underdog, so to speak. Um, I, I think that, that, that probably started to form in my life well into my 20s, you know, when I'm, when I'm, when I'm working inside of, you know, corporate America for the four years that I was there, only four years. But when I would see individuals being taken advantage of or, or when I worked for the railroad, when I got out of the military, I worked for the railroad. When I saw people taken advantage of, that's when that mechanism started to grow in me and my character. When I had a supervisor, the only blue collar job that I've ever had, um, where I had an on the job accident. I had a lid blow up in my face, Adam. It knocked my teeth out, broke my nose, split the bone right here. I fell back 30ft, landed on a catwalk. If I would have missed that catwalk, I would have gone down another 80ft unconscious. So. So when I tell you that I don't take a lot of bullshit, it's because when I work for that particular company, I had to do the supervisor torrent. Why are you out here acting like Martin Luther King? If I tell people to go to lunch for 10 minutes, then I want them to take a 10 minute lunch break. And I said, mark, I don't know who you think you are, but if the lunch break is 30 minutes, I'm taking 30 minutes and I'm telling everybody else to take 30 minutes. So it was those types of reactions where, or instances where I started to find myself advocating for the voiceless, if you will. Those individuals felt less empowered. It was well in my twenties when that started.

Speaker A: Activist like efforts. It's in your bio here. Activists like efforts. What does that mean?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm advocating, man. I approach, I approach high powered, um, high performance, team building through the lens of an activist. Like, I want to get that frequency moving. I want to bring a lot of people to the equation. I want work to be better for everybody. Like, I care about the organization. I know that the bottom line is important. But just because the bottom line is important to the leaders, to shareholders, it does not mean in any way that work has to suck for everybody else. It does not in any way mean that we should subscribe to things that are less than. I don't believe in that. So when I say I show up, I don't show up with necessarily the queen's English. Uh, I don't always show up. Referring to academic research and data to support this particular thing right here. Listen, I get it. Everybody has a different way of showing up. But I'm showing up as Torin and Adam for the longest. It was hard for me to do that because I always felt like there was something that I needed to pretend. I had people who told me that they couldn't trust me because I had hair on my face. I had literally a leader.

Speaker A: I've never heard that.

Speaker B: Adam, if you, if you were to put a poll up on Twitter, I swear, and you ask your black and brown friends, colleagues, professionals, what are one of the reasons why you don't wear facial hair? I'm telling you overwhelmingly, you are going to hear them say, because it's not accepted in the workplace. I had a man, white man, tell me, I don't trust you because you have hair on your face. And this is what's killer. I had the number one team in the building.

Speaker A: Yeah. Be like, well, don't you Trust my numbers, dude. What don't you trust my, my results? You don't trust my performance?

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: So you don't trust my receipts.

Speaker B: It's, it's because of these instances that as an entrepreneur, I have, I am less trying to be. I pretend far less than. Let's just say that I used to.

Speaker A: I don't got time for that. It takes so much more effort, and I say this all the time, to pretend to be something you're not than be who you really are.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: So much more effort, you know, and once, uh, you know, once I had it, I had a couple of self awareness epiphanies in my life and once I got to those points of being comfortable with who I am, that's when things opened up. And when I started doing this show and I was able to have a platform to really say how I feel and feel what I mean and say what I mean. That's, that's, that's when things change you. So I want to pivot. I want to, I want to get into the, I want to get into the crux. I want to get into the good stuff here. And whenever I talk to practitioners in the DEIB space, I, I always ask them if you could define each one of the letters for us and what it means to you in your practice. Let's, let's start there.

Speaker B: Um, all right, let's break it down.

Speaker A: I haven't, I haven't done this in a while. I haven't done this, and I haven't, I haven't had a practitioner on in about 50, 60 episodes. So I think it's time for a refresher here in 2024 with Torren Ellis to break down D, E, I, M, B.

Speaker B: Okay, so I'm going to actually steal a definition, uh, for the letter D from Miriam Lewis, who is the Chief Diversity officer at Principle Financial. Um, their definition of diversity is all that I am, and more importantly, all that I am not. I'll say it again. All that I am and more importantly, all that I am not. Um, inclusion is us being in the same room, the same space, the same organization, the same line, same warehouse. Equity is. Uh, I might need some different resources in order for me to do the job that I have been hired to do. It doesn't mean that you are lowering the bar, but I may need some different accommodations. I'll give you an example. As a single mother who has children, needs to catch public transportation in order to get to work, a schedule of seven in the morning may be A little bit, um, challenging maybe her schedule needs to be eight in the morning. Everyone else on the team is going to show up at 7, but she may need to show up at 8 and she'll work that extra hour because public transportation.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Will support her in the evening. So equity is not about lowering the bar. It's about how do we make sure that we give people the resources and the support that they need to do to excel in the job that we have hired them for. And then the bead. The belonging piece is really making Adam and Torrin feel like they are welcomed in this room. It's one thing for us to sit at a conference. It's one thing for us to sit in a break room in the facility. Uh, but it's something else to feel like we belong. I actually said it in the beginning of the pod. I never felt like I was growing up in a place where I didn't belong. I was, um, un. Wanted. The belonging is making you feel wanted. Those are the letters D, E, I, B. Let me give you my definition. Bringing the unusual, the unfamiliar, and the unsuspecting together, unafraid. That we cannot hit our KPI goals and objectives.

Speaker A: I dig it. Whenever I talk about DIMB with my, my clients too, when we talk about diversity, I always say to them, how important is it to you? Diversity of mindset. I like to remove, like, bias. I find so many organizations, and we're not just talking about outward appearance, but they want a lot of yes men and women and people in their organization. How important to you is it that you have different perspectives, different mindsets within your organization? And of course they're going to say, yes, no, no, no, no, we don't want that. We don't want that at all. But when you come into an organization, how do you assess if they're just checking the box in DIMB or if they really frickin want to make changes and want to make inroads and be a truly diverse organization. How do you. Because, uh, I could see that being a little bit tricky, right? Like if someone's hiring torrent to come in, you're going to tell them the real deal, whether they like it or not. But there's got to be some nuances to that approach. What's the assessment look like?

Speaker B: Okay, so there's a little bit there. So I'll do everything that I can

Speaker A: to keep a lot there tight.

Speaker B: Um, but let me address the first piece in terms of how important it is for the difference in mindset. I believe it's Extremely important. Oftentimes, when we talk about diversity, you know, we defer to the race and the gender piece because they are easy, they are observable, uh, they're immutable, if you will. They are there, and so it's easy for us to talk about them. And then there are probably another seven or eight characteristics, if you will, that readily come to mind. You know, we look at academic, uh, accomplishment. We look at an individual's zip code or their geography. Um, we look at their ability disability, if you will. And there are some others that tend to be the usual secondary layer of dimension that people are looking for. To your point or to your question, I think it's imperative that we are exploring the variety, the disparity and the separation in terms of dimensions. When I talk about variety, I'm talking about acumen and experience. When I talk about, uh, disparity, I'm talking about people's beliefs and associations. When I'm talking about separation, I'm talking about, um, their compensation and their role and how they've grown, if you will, over their career. So I believe personally that these dimensions of variety, separation and disparity are extremely important because all of them lean towards what a person brings from a creative standpoint and intellectual standpoint to an organization. Now, put that aside. You asked what's the assessment look like? Uh, I mean, it's. To me, it's simple. We do it in our sleep because we've been doing it for so long. Adam, it is important that when you are looking at an organization and you are trying to solve for dni, that you are checking D and I at every value point in the organization, we get the thing wrong because we do one of two things. Number one, we will say if we stand up some unconscious bias training or some schedule of training that we've done, diversity and inclusion, we kind of clap our hands and we're happy about it. Or we say if we can recruit more underrepresented individuals, people that are not in our organization, that we've solved for diversity because we've done the recruiting thing. We need both of them. We need the learning and development. We need the talent acquisition. But we also need diversity and inclusion to be, uh, explored for in supplier diversity and corporate social responsibility and philanthropic efforts and our board governance, uh, in our accounting practices, policy and procedures. I mean, I can keep going. It's all of the value points where we need to make sure that dni, for short, dni is showing up, uh, in a way that is modeled and substantive and consistent and Accountable across the organization. Absent of that, then all you are doing, in many ways is checking the box.

Speaker A: Exactly. And I find it interesting because I'm an in the trenches recruiter. I'm an in the trenches external recruiter. Companies hire me to source and find the best talent. And in my eight years of doing recruiting, more than a handful of times, I've had conversations with hiring teams and they say, adam, we want to ensure a diverse hire. And I'm like, well, what exactly are you saying to that? I'm like, what does that mean? Uh, do you want me to source people of color? What do you want for me to source? And they say, adam, we just want to make sure that you're sourcing a diverse group of candidates. And I could kind of read between the lines here. So this is what I ask them at the final stages. If I have a black, brown, yellow, anything but white candidate and a white candidate, and the white candidate is better, who are you going to hire? Who are you going to hire? And I want to hear that answer from them because that's going to help me position and understand that. Right. And, um, nine out of ten times, I think only once they say, we want to hire the best possible candidate. We want to ensure that your sourcing efforts are diverse. We want to make sure that you, as a recruiter, are looking everywhere, not just on LinkedIn. Maybe someone doesn't have access to LinkedIn. Maybe someone is that doesn't have access to LinkedIn Premium and their profile is coming to the top of your page. So how are you doing that? How are you ensuring diversity? And that's always a tough one for me as a recruiter, and I really take a lot of pride in that. So where are we right now?

Speaker B: Like, I want to turn the table, though, Adam. I want to turn on that, man.

Speaker A: Go for it, please.

Speaker B: I know it's your pod.

Speaker A: Go for it.

Speaker B: But I want to. I want to. I want to stay there for.

Speaker A: Let's double get into it.

Speaker B: So what's the issue with your position? I don't see an issue in your position. If I have a black and white candidate and the white candidate is better, we all things equal, I don't see any issue in. In that. Do people that you talk to have an issue with that?

Speaker A: No. The problem I get, man, is because I'm trying to read between the lines, and I think they're just giving me lip service. I think they want me to bring in more diverse candidates and they're going to hire somebody diverse who may not be as good as somebody who's not diverse. And I've seen that happen, too. And that's when I get pushed back to. From other candidates. And it's been a weird. It's only happened a couple of times, thankfully, in my world. While our comes to.

Speaker B: My question is, I'm hit it a little differently. I'm going to hit it a little different.

Speaker A: My question is, are companies. Are companies going about it the wrong way and flipping it where it's almost reversed?

Speaker B: Yeah, I can't. I can't talk companies.

Speaker A: Um, and I'm not naming and shaming anybody, believe me.

Speaker B: No, no, no, no, I get it. I get it. No, let me just say this. Let me hit this in a different way. And I've had this conversation a number of times. First and foremost, DNI is m. Not about lowering the bar. So I wouldn't, um, consult or advise or any of my clients to. To bring on an individual who was less than superior.

Speaker A: That's not going to help any organization.

Speaker B: Yeah. Whether it's superior, average, higher, whatever that last word is. I don't. I don't advocate for anyone lowering the bar ever. Never have I done that. That's number one. But I hit this a little bit differently. Um, person said to me, this, uh, was on a session with one of my clients, Torn. We have five candidates. Um, uh, and the client wants diversity. And I'm struggling because I feel like it's reverse discrimination. All they said was, five candidates, client wants diversity, and they feel like it's reverse discrimination. I said, let me take that and go a different way. You got five candidates, all of them are white. You can only present two. What do you tell the other three? And they said, well, we just tell them that they didn't make the cut. I said, exactly. That's exactly what you tell them. You didn't tell them they didn't make the cut because they were white.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: No one's saying that.

Speaker B: You didn't tell them they didn't make the cut because they didn't have an ability or they didn't come from the LGBTQ community. You tell them you didn't make the cut because I put forth the two best candidates.

Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah, true.

Speaker B: And they were like, I get it. So here's the flip side of that. I don't want a person or an organization to just simply check the box, Adam. What I want them to do is, if there is a lack of representation, I want to be more intentional in my search and sourcing efforts. That is it. I am not Going to defer to what has been easy, what has been on automatic drip. I am going to focus on building new relationships. I'm going to look at new collaboration partners. I'm going to spend in sourcing amount of time in new ponds to fish for new quality candidates that support the intentionality.

Speaker A: That's the right analogy.

Speaker B: Inclusion.

Speaker A: That's the right analogy. Is, is changing up what you've been doing and look in different sources. That's it. So let's, let's, let's, let's, let's bring it back to the calendar here. I want to bring it back to the year 2001. The Internet bubble bursting, man. What was torn doing at that time?

Speaker B: Uh, trying to stave off bankruptcy. Um, you know, when that bubble burst, Adam, uh, all of my clients, um, at that point, I'm running a seven figure, um, external agency like you. I've never been an internal recruiter by the way. Um, and, and I'm trying to stave off, you know, my, my telecom clients dropping like flies. Like, yeah, they were.

Speaker A: The bubble was bursting, literally. Companies are going belly up.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, in, in, in my attempt to stave off bankruptcy, I, I was able to hold it off for, you know, a year and a half, two years. And in 2004, I ended up filing bankruptcy. I had a client that owed me a little more than five, a couple of clients that owed me a little more than 500,000, um, in terms. Because all I did was kept sourcing and putting people in play. Um, I didn't know any better. I didn't know that I could go get an attorney. I didn't know that I could try to get on their schedule, their bankruptcy schedule and get some degree of payment remittance. I didn't know these things. It was my first business, first time entrepreneur. All I said was, all right, forget it. If, if, you know, tlsing company doesn't want to pay tls, then let me just go find a new contract, somebody who's hiring. And there were clients out there that were hiring, but they just weren't paying. And finally in 2004, it caught up with me.

Speaker A: What did that feel like? To go belly up? Did you.

Speaker B: How frustrating, man.

Speaker A: How did you feel? Did you feel like a failure?

Speaker B: Listen. Did I. You come on bankruptcy, losing, losing, uh, a house or forced to sell a home that we loved. It was, it was a painful experience, one that I would not wish upon anybody. I, I would say to people, I used to tell people there wasn't enough love lust or liquor to keep me from being a functional, um, um, you know, ah, alcoholic. I was, I felt like I was a functional alcoholic in 04, 05, 06, you know, trying to deal with the pain of los a business, um, going from being wildly successful to, you know, land on my back. I mean, literally losing it all. So it was a really, really frustrating experience. But here's the thing. 2001 was not. I'm sorry, 2008 was worse than 2001.

Speaker A: 2008 was brutal.

Speaker B: And I sailed through 2008.

Speaker A: Me too, man.

Speaker B: M experience of 2001, because of what I experienced in, uh, 01, I. I was able to see the signs, the markers. I knew the economy was moving in a totally, uh, different and worse direction that I was able to navigate. You know, in 01, all of my clients were telecom clients. In 08, I had a mix of clients. So when you learned to diversify, the client didn't hit me the same.

Speaker A: Yeah, you learned, you learned from. So what was that? What was, what was the. Listen, I didn't coin this. I don't own this. I say this all the time, man. Two things. One, the treasure is in your shit pits. The treasure is in the shit pit. The treasure is when you're at your lowest. Everyone knows my story. When I got fired 15 years ago, got fired by Gary Ve, yada yada, When I was at that lowest, when I was in between jobs before I pivoted into recruiting, that was rock bottom, man. That was my rock bottom. My daughter had a terrible accident. She had third degree burns. I didn't know it was going on. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know my value. I didn't know how I was going to provide for my family. I didn't know what was next for me. And I could look back on it now, eight, nine years later and say, you know what? Rock bottom is the strongest foundation to build upon. You need that foundation, right? You need to start, uh, you need to start from, from zero. And you don't think about it. No one wants to do that. But when you have that foundation and you build up everything else on top, man, it's got a solid base. So how did you build back up after that bankruptcy? How did you get yourself back on your feet? Did you clean up? Did you cut alcohol? How did you, how did you ensure the family was tight? How did, how did touring get back to being torn?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it took a lot of centering, uh, it took a lot of music and non stop playlists. It took a lot of, um, uh, self examination, you know, recognizing that, you know, you can wing this thing of entrepreneurship. Uh, but at some degree, while it may not be a formal education, there is some degree of learning and learn, continued learning that needs to take place. And so, you know, part of what I did was to take classes. Uh, I took some college classes and just said, you know, I don't want this right here to happen to me again. I took some self development courses around motivation, leadership, inspiration, um, because I needed to make sure that I was whole. And here's what I learned, Adam, in that period. I learned that I was better than I had given myself credit for.

Speaker A: That's a big one.

Speaker B: I was better than, than what I had given m. Myself credit for.

Speaker A: Were you hating on yourself?

Speaker B: Say it again.

Speaker A: A lot of self hate, self doubt.

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. That imposter. That's why I said, you know, in the beginning, that showing up, pretending like I had to be somebody different. I needed to recognize that I just simply needed to show up. People, people jive, they connected with me. I was an incredible salesperson. Um, my candidates knew, they always knew that they were primary for me. They were. My, my, my first, uh, recruiting business was illusory. The word illusory is imagination. That was the first recruiting business. My second recruiting business was second motive. And candidates would ask me, well, why, why is your business named second Motive? I said, because my primary motive is to get you what you want. My second motive is to make sure when I spend that money, I don't have to return it.

Speaker A: Mhm. When I'm. Yeah, I'm not waiting for no, I'm not waiting for no guaranteed. So when did you get out of the recruiting business? Because I'm, I'm thinking about the same thing myself, man.

Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah, I got out like 10 or 11. I still do search assignments even today, but from a, uh, uh, formal full

Speaker A: time executive search capacity.

Speaker B: Yeah. 10, 20, 10 to 11, man.

Speaker A: It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a different world. So you, you've shifted, you've shifted the business you talk about, you know, you've talk about. Let's talk about your practice for a little bit. Right. Driven. Driven entirely by internal dynamic that center and organization people. Analytical, efficient and precise. Sorry, methodological and precise. Like who's your best client? What type of, what's your ICP man? Like who, who works best with you? Who do you work best with? Um,

Speaker B: I've had the fortune of working with some of the biggest logos on the planet. Um, and I will tell you that my best client is one that is committed. And here's what commitment looks like to me. Number one, there is an executive and or an executive team that has made a declarative statement that diversity and inclusion are important to the organization. That that statement is internal facing to every single employee. 2200, 2000, 200,000. Every employee knows that that leader believes in D. And I. Maybe that statement is external facing, but at minimum internal. That's number one. Number two, that that leader is willing to allocate reallocate resources that would be headcount and dollars.

Speaker A: That's a big one.

Speaker B: That's absolutely.

Speaker A: Put your money where your mouth is.

Speaker B: Put your money where your mouth is. And then number three, that they are going to hold their senior leadership mid level managers accountable. If I can find an organization that is willing to subscribe to those three tenants, then I know that they are an ICP for me. Because no matter what happens, they are willing to go down the journey, the road to get to the result that we believe is uh, available to us, present and, or waiting for us. And so that to me is the icp. I don't care if they're a small firm, medium sized, large. I need those three things. And let me tell you why I need those three things, please. I need those three because I worked with a large retailer in 2016 and in 2017 and in both years, Adam, um, they never took my findings and pushed them up to the Chro or the C suite. So nobody outside of this immediate reach of mine, right, saw the work that we did. We uncovered challenges and problems.

Speaker A: Were they scared?

Speaker B: Put on their radar?

Speaker A: They scared for their jobs, man. Shit, we're not doing so good. I don't know if I want to push this up and my ass is on the line now.

Speaker B: So check this out.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: In 2018, um, this is public. In 2018, the CEO had announced that they were going to step down. The next CEO would have been a black man. The black man that would have been elevated to CEO stepped down along with 30, 35 or so other men because there was a major, major bro culture that was being uncovered and talked about. And it resulted in the departure of 30 to 40 high level leaders to include this black man that would have become the CEO. So it was after that moment that I said, wait a minute, why am I doing DNI work? And my work is not being seen by the highest levels of leadership in the organization. So no longer am I taking these crumbs I am working with organizations that really want to commit to doing the work that we are prescribing.

Speaker A: I love it. Yeah, that's powerful. So you talk about leadership in this quote, timeless language of leadership. There's threat. Listen, I talk to so many leaders on this show. I've been doing this a long time and there's these traits that come through and there's these characteristics and I think that, you know, leadership transcends time from a values perspective. I think styles have changed. I think more leaders these days are listening. Hope.

Speaker B: Uh, so.

Speaker A: I hope so. I hope so. Yeah, I really hope so. What do you, what are you seeing out there? The good, the bad and the ugly around leadership. Let's talk, let's spend a few minutes on leadership here because. Cause I think that it's um, obviously critical and I also think that there's a lot of young organizations coming out there, these startups and so with young folks leading them that two things, one, they don't have the leadership experience, but some of them might have those innate built in in their DNA. And how do you bring that out to make them great leaders early on?

Speaker B: Yeah, so let me do the good, the good of leadership to me is uh, an individual who's willing to develop you, Adam, to inspire you, to resource you and to support you. I believe that if I'm the person that you report to, we have the most interaction on a day to day basis. I have an obligation to develop, inspire, resource and support you. How I do that is going to look different, a bit more nuanced depending on the geography, depending on the industry, depending on my acumen, depending on a whole lot of factors. But in the end, to me it comes down to development, inspiration, resource and support. That's what good leadership to me looks like. Uh, it doesn't matter what business book you read. I think that it all gets distilled into one of those four categories. I think bad leadership or where we are problematic is to your point. They're not willing to listen. They haven't done the work to build the trust. They're not willing to model what it looks like to be inclusive and equitable. And so when you have a person who separates divorces themselves from these four good principles on this side, I feel like you always have a tension filled relationship, which it doesn't have to be. I don't think we need a whole bunch of bells and whistles. And this is not me suggesting that we don't invest in technology or that we don't explore better ways of Putting our benefits and whatnot together or that we're not exploring compensation and pay equity? Uh, I'm not suggesting that. What. What I'm saying is I just don't believe that good, uh, relationships of leadership require a whole bunch of bells and whistles. It really is the human dynamic, that human spirit. As long as I care about you, then I'm going to treat you in a way that supports and suggests that I care about you, period.

Speaker A: Do you think we're overusing the word empathy? Has it lost its touch? Do you think it's become a buzzword in leadership?

Speaker B: No, I don't believe it is. I actually don't believe that we're empathetic enough. You know, in my DNI work, my practice, and this is. I stand on it. You know, I feel like if you're going to do diversity and inclusion the right way, if you're going to be a better leader, you'll be more empathetic, you'll be more intentional. You'll have more proximity to the people on your team in your business unit or your department. Um, and that you will be transparent with them. And transparent sometimes is vulnerable. But I believe that you will ebb and flow through those four words. That's what good leadership looks like. I want to know that your mother or your father, these two parents that you say are retired. I want to have a relationship with you, Adam, that says, you know what, he's comfortable coming to me to share with me that his productivity has taken a dip because his focus hasn't been there, because he's caring for his parents. This shit is new to him. It's a little hard. I don't really know what I'm doing. Yes, it's affected my productivity. It's not that I'm checking out. It's not that you're a bad leader, Torren. I got some shit going on, and I want you to be willing to share. Comfortable share. Sharing that with me.

Speaker A: And how, as a leader, could I best support you during this time? Uh, that's the payoff.

Speaker B: There you go.

Speaker A: There it is, too. Um, when you're coaching senior leadership, I want to talk a little bit about hiring, too, because we're in an incredibly difficult market right now. We're in an overly saturated candidate. Saturated market. There's a ton of layoffs happening out there. And fortunately, depending on your perspective on it, companies are now in a position where they could choose a cream of the crop. They could really, you know, um, find the best qualified folks for the team. But there's a balance between the hard skills and the soft skills. And I always talk to senior leaders and I say, listen, by the time someone gets to you in an interview process, they've met the qualifications and experience. But how do you assess character and values without that, like, bias, without looking for somebody who is going to be exactly like you? I hate the word culture fit. Listen, I stood up on the stage of Rec Fest UK and I did a whole thing on my. I hate the F word. I hate the word culture fit, because to me, that lends to bias. When you're coaching leadership in the interview process, what are some of those methods and tips and tricks? Not even tricks, because that's a terrible word, but what are those methods to understand and ask someone about who they are from a core value perspective? I also don't like when people ask, oh, tell me what you do outside of work, because it can be cool. Complete bias. I could tell you, hey, I like to crochet confederate flags, but I don't want you to hold that against me. Right. Like, if that's my passion, but I'm great at what I like. How do you get to that?

Speaker B: Um, Adam, that's really tricky. And I don't know if I have a really intense.

Speaker A: Just your thoughts just off the cuff, man.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, again, it's tricky. I just, I, I feel like it's just more important for us to, to be consistent in that interviewing process. And so if, in fact you are going to ask that question that you despise, that you ask that question of every single candidate consistently, that you are not only asking that question of the people who graduated from schools that you like or, uh, subscribe to, or that people are coming from companies with logos that you recognize and, and, and, and deem to be a bit more superior. You ask that despisable question of every single individual, at least you can go back and say that I was consistent and that I was fair in the interviewing process, how I judge that response, that is the tricky part. That's the nuance. That's the reason why you would have an interview panel, if you will. That's the reason why you would have some of that creative, uh, those different dimensions of intellect that you asked about 30 or 40 minutes ago that needs to be in the room to help contribute and maybe offset the bias that may creep up.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's all about, it's all about, you know, preventing. And Matt, we listen, we all have unconscious bias. Every single one of us. Every single one of us. There's something that we were predisposed to because no one is 100%. I love everybody. Everyone's perfect. We've all had life experiences. We've all grown up in different ways. We're all different inside, outside, and it's just human nature. There's conflict, there's dislike, there's just biases and to different degrees and extremes. And we also have to understand. For me, it's knowing what my biases are. And I've talked about this before. Early on in recruiting, I did this one exercise where I found that certain foreign sounding names I was less inclined to source from. And I worked on that bias and it was something inside and it wasn't racist per se, but it was uncomfortable and unknown and that's why I strayed away from that. And then I was able to course correct and be more open and mindful about what my biases are. So let's, let's. We're, we're, we're approaching the, the final, the final stretch here is I like to say, what are you, what are you working on these days? What's exciting you? What, what's, what's, what's keeping the juices flowing? What's keeping the money coming in? What do you, what are you working on right now?

Speaker B: There's two things that, um, are my North Star right now.

Speaker A: Oh, don't you got to save the North Star? That's my last question, man. You can't go North Star.

Speaker B: Don't worry.

Speaker A: So, so that's my money shot, man.

Speaker B: That's cool. That's cool. The fuel, the juice that you, you, you, um, uh, ask about. It's coming from two areas. Number one, my creative side. Yeah, Um, I can coach, I consult, I speak. Uh, I can do that in my sleep. It's the creative side that has not been fed over the last decade or so. And so I personally would like to see myself creating in flight, movie, um, content. I'd like to see myself creating more content around humanity. Uh, if anybody Googles the phrase, um, the ROI of DNI is greater humanity, that's mine. That's me. I haven't trademarked it, but I'm the person who says that I believe DNI is greater humanity. So I am fueling my creative pursuits. Uh, the second thing that is getting the juices really flowing for me is I want to create some HR tech. Um, I want to create a solution that I deem as business intelligence. I've talked to some folks and they see it as a manager enablement solution. But I want to play in the space of building technology that approaches, um, the DNI conversation differently, that it proves out some of the work that management consulting firms have been, uh, purporting over the years. I just don't believe that there's a solution that shows us that more diverse companies are better for the bottom line. I don't know. If there's a piece of technology that does it, I want to build it.

Speaker A: How do you see AI playing a role in that?

Speaker B: I, um, mean, if, if I'm looking at going back to that example that I gave you a moment ago around Adam's productivity falling off because of his parents. How can I use AI to make Torrin a better, more sensitive, more informed leader so that I'm not, um, getting down on Adam, that I'm not penalizing him in our one on ones, but that I am intelligently being empathetic and uh, educating myself on how I can support him in that process. So I don't believe an organization's learning and development library is going to be comprehensive at any given moment. What I believe is that their learning and development um, library has the ability, it's going to be necessary, that it evolves real time. And so AI can give me that solution that helps me support Adam.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I see it working into the solution that you're building now as a, Creating a, Using your own custom GPT as a warehouse of knowledge and data that you could pull from, for example, for data for past performance. And I think that using it the right way and ethically and understanding what the boundaries are of how to use it. But we're in such early stage of AI man. I mean, listen, AI mml, that's been around for a long time. Same thing as the Internet. Browse the 50s. Right? Right. Like these things have been around for a long time. We're just learning how to use them in the, in the practical consumer, in the business sense right now. It's exciting. Tor, what's, what's, what's keeping you up at night these days?

Speaker B: Uh, the departure, the divorce, uh, the discourse, the disingenuous around dni. You know, when I think about the reason why so many organizations decided that they wanted to be committed to this journey, that the reason that they did that and made those statements years ago was on the death of a black man. Um, it is so offensive, offensive as a black man, to hear people on stages, on podcasts, um, in LinkedIn posts and others to say that we started our DNI journey as a result of the death of George Floyd. That is offensive. And then it's even more offensive to hear that some of these same leaders, individuals, people who have put out posts are divorcing themselves. They are deterring themselves from being committed to humanity. That, that keeps me up at.

Speaker A: That's just, that's just bad mojo, man. That's karma. That's bad. Like doing something just because something, you should have been doing it before.

Speaker B: But it's rampant.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And while it may not be as big as my word or use of rampant, um, suggests, it is far bigger than we, we think. And it's not just happening here in the us it's happening in the uk. Um, you know, there was a Prime Minister in the UK just in the month of, uh, May, who made an announcement and said, you can't do dni. They put forth legislation that you can't do DNI meetings on work time. You had to do diversity and inclusion related corporate meetings either at lunch or after work. So that's just disingenuous. Um, and it's a problem that we need to address.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, listen, I could stand on my soapbox. We're in a very scary time. Hate is prevalent. Hate. It is hate on all sides. You know, anti, you know, Islamophobia, anti Semitism. The world is being divided more than ever. It is scary. It is scary for me as a Jewish man raising Jewish kids in the burbs here to see what's happening, to see friends and family all over the world, to see innocent folks getting killed. Like the world is getting more divided. And how do we keep the workplace safe? How do we keep the workplace a safe space for everyone? Right. Like, how do we ensure that? It's scary, man. These are shitty times.

Speaker B: Well, I mean, they are, but they are because too many people have been silent and continue to be silent and the face of injustice.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: And so it's a matter of speaking up in our workplace, in our community, at our family dinner table, when we have holiday gatherings and those, uh, weekend, you know, weather is getting nice and you're bringing people over, it is mandatory that more people are speaking up in

Speaker A: the face of injustice and in the breadth of the work that you do. Having a workplace where you're not going to shun people if they're being activists within their rights on either side. If you're pro Palestinian and if you're pro peace and you're not being hateful, the same thing on, on, on the other sides. Right. Like, as long as your, your companies are, are, are not holding that against you unless you Cross a line, Right. In violence and hate and certain things. But companies need to be mindful and support people for who they are outside of work, too, to an extent.

Speaker B: It's a. Adam, I love you for what you just.

Speaker A: It's delicate, right? It's. It's delicate. It's. It's nuanced. This is not a. We don't have this playbook right now.

Speaker B: I love you for what you just did. Um, and I don't know if you know you did it, but you said 45 seconds ago, growing up in the burbs, Jewish, and then you just said, it's okay to be pro Palestinian in peace. And you didn't water that?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Uh, or mix that with anything else. I love what you just did. And so I often start my presentations when I walk into a room with this quote. What is needed is a shift in openness and value given to the narrative by both the storyteller and the listener.

Speaker A: And with that, let's bring it home here. Torren Ellis. What is the single greatest piece of advice you've ever received that you take action on every day? A, uh, mantra. Something you wake up first thing in the morning, you say in your head, first thing you. Goes through your mind, gets you focused, locked in for the day.

Speaker B: I don't know if it's the first thing, but what I will say is, P minus I equals R, potential minus interference equals results. I try to move through my day limiting the interference. The naysayers, the individuals who say we can't do dni, the people who say DNI is lowering the bar, and it's reverse racism. And these, uh, I try to limit the interference and focus on the result. And the result that I am chasing is greater humanity. P minus I equals R. And my

Speaker A: spin on that, that I practice is plan your work and work your plan. That's my mantra. Kind of a little spin on that, too, and I love it. Man, there's been a great conversation. We could go on for hours here and, well, maybe we'll get a Part 2 schedule later this year, and maybe we'll do it live. Maybe we'll do it live at, uh, a wreck fest. Maybe we'll do it live at a, uh, at a Sherm or something fun coming down the pipe there, but torn out. Last but not least, you look back on your life. You look on those tough times when you really had to dig down deep and harness that inner tenacity, when you were at the bottom of bankruptcy, when you were lying on your back, you know, putting down that booze and being your worst self and you needed to reach back up. You need to claw back and harness that inner tenacity to pull you forward. And you sit here today grateful for your life, your family, your practice, the work that you do, the change for good that you are in this world. What is your beacon? What is your compass, Torren Ellis? What is your North Star?

Speaker B: In life, bad will be the day for any man when he becomes absolutely contented with the thoughts that he is thinking, with the deeds that he is doing, with the life that he is living, when forever beating at his soul is some great desire to do something more, to be more, to give more. Because after all, I and you and everyone listening are a child of the most High God. And I just remember, no matter where I am, there is a reason, uh, for me to be in the scenario or the situation that I'm in and that I must go through whatever it is to continue to live out my purpose.

Speaker A: Amen to that. Man. I love that. That is some powerful, powerful stuff there. So Torren, I want to thank you for your time, your energy, your wisdom, your strong words, your experience, sharing with me and my audience. Everyone check him out. He's on LinkedIn. He's everywhere. He's gonna be out in RecFest UK. I'm still trying to get myself out there. I'm trying to still get out to Rec Fest uk. I was out there in Nebworth a couple of years ago. I had a blast. But Torn's gonna be out there doing a 36 hour DNI intensive. What are you doing out there aside from wrecking the fest that we know is Wreckfest? What a party that is. Geez, what an event indeed.

Speaker B: Yeah, we're going to do uh, a DNI intensive here in Baltimore June 26 and 27. So anybody who's interested in being better about DNI, get at me on LinkedIn as they would say, shoot me an email. Torrent toren ellis.com we're going to also do a one day intensive in London the week of Wreckfest there. I'm going to do that on Tuesday, July 9th in London. So it's uh, it's an event for, for individuals who really lead DNI work practice in their organization or they want to be better about doing the work more intentional. So find me on social media at Torren Ellis. Once again, across all of social media at Torren Ellis.

Speaker A: Find them. Torn, I want to thank you so much for joining us today. This has been incredible. Everyone out there listening. If this show resonated with you. Leave a review rating, it goes a long way. You know how to find out more at the podcast. Follow us on Instagram hptalent Listen. Sharing means caring. Please spread the word. I appreciate it. Leave a review rating it goes a long way. Be good to yourself, be better to others and catch us next week for another great episode of the podcast. Take care everybody. Toren Ellis thank you. Hey everybody. I want to talk about a product and platform that I absolutely love and uh, our latest sponsor, Interseller, the prospecting and outreach platform of choice for recruiters and sellers. Whether you're doubling down on business development or recruiting talent, Interseller does all the heavy lifting of finding contact data, automating the email and follow up process, and syncs all that rich data into 20 plus CRM and ETS platforms. Reach out now and get going on a two week free trial and let them know you heard about it from Adam on the podcast today. Check out the link on the website. Appreciate it.

Speaker C: Wisdom is forever, but for us it's time to go. Thank you for joining us. Luckily, we'll be back with our next episode soon. Jam packed with more incredible humans. Thank you for listening, subscribing and sharing. To join the conversation, search the pause cast on LinkedIn and to catch up on past episodes and more info, please visit www.thepodcast.com.