#50 - How do efficiency and sustainability affect your bottom line?

Speaker A: Talking Industry topical debate from the world of engineering, automation and manufacturing brought to you by DFA Media Group. This episode is sponsored by Drives and Controls, the number one event for automation, power transmission and motion control, taking place the 5th and 6th June 2024 at the NEC Birmingham in association with Smart Manufacturing and Engineering Week. Register now at, uh, www.Dr.thrives-expo.com.

Speaker B: Okay. My name is Andy Pye, uh, I'm consultant editor at DFA Media Group. We publish a range of online and print based publications principally in the manufacturing and automation sector. Before we start, uh, I'd like to point out that Talking Industry is sponsored by the Drives and Controls Exhibition, uh, the number one event for automation, power transmission and motion control. And it will be taking place between the 5th and 6th of June at the well known venue of the NEC in Birmingham. Um, so it'd be nice to see you there. And in association with Manufacturing and Engineering Week whose slogan is Drive the future, you can get some more information at their website and I've put all that in the chat for you. Today we're going to be talking about uh, efficiency and sustainability in manufacturing and what effect that has on your bottom line. So in other words, um, is it a pain to be efficient and sustainable or is it a benefit and is it something we should be doing anyway and getting those extra benefits of looking after the planet at the same time? Um, to help me through this, uh, I've got two excellent speakers. Um, uh, I've got Gareth Jones who's uh, from ABB and he spent more than 30 years working in variable speed drives and automation and we, we all know the role that variable speed drives can play in uh, in the energy efficiency um, arena. Uh, prior to joining ABB in 2022 local division as local division manager for drives, he held senior roles at Control Techniques. Um, uh, it's a company that I've followed very well and I always shudder when the name comes up because the first time I visited I booked a ticket to Newport which I found was an awfully long way from Newtown in Paris hours. Um, but I got it right subsequently. Um, Gareth now manages ABB's portfolio of drive products in the UK including low voltage and medium voltage drives, um, and education wise he holds a B ENG in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and an mba. So you're welcome Gareth and we look forward to your contribution. Um, our second speaker um, is on a slightly different tack but there's commonality between the two as I think will show. Um, John Dyson is from Wilmslow Adaptix. And he's also a presenter and active member of iiom, which is the International Institute of Obsolescence Management. And he's one of the obsolescent solutions teams at Winslow Adaptix. So we'll be exploring the link between obsolescence and sustainability and uh, what uh, implications that has. He has a career in electronics which began as a PCB designer at Farnell Instruments. And uh, fast forwarding today his job is to support the transition to the more circular electronics models and to science, boast sustainable obsolescence solutions. And part of that of course is um, the crises that we've had in the supply chain for electronics, materials and um, PCBs, which no doubt will form part of the discussion as well. Um, so I thought that a good place to start. We all think we know what sustainability means and I suppose it means a lot of things really. So I thought I'd ask the two speakers to start to like, briefly explain what they understand by the term sustainability. And I'll start with Gareth and then we'll move over to John. So Gareth, what do you mean? What do you understand by sustainability?

Speaker C: Okay, thanks, Andy. So I think sustainability is such a, um, multifaceted kind of phrase that um, it can mean lots of things to lots of people in different contexts. You know, I think if we apply it to what we're talking about here, I really see two key areas. The first is around how do we protect the environment around us, how do we do the right thing, use the right materials, um, and have the right green credentials that um, allow people to buy into what we do and allow people to invest in our businesses, those kind of things. And then the second element that I think is really important, sustainability is really about having a sustainable business model. And what I mean by that really is, you know, being able to operate efficiently, operate your assets efficiently, making sure that you can, um, that you can make profits after your inputs. Um, and I think both of these are equally important actually. I think, um, you know, having, being, being green, you know, having the right, um, solutions is so important. And uh, a lot of investors now look at, you know, the real underlying, um, footprints of businesses and how that impacts and how they're driving to net zero to determine, you know, whether that's a sustainable business model. And um, I think from an energy efficiency point of view, you know, it used to be a nice to have and I think now it's um, I think it's actually a ticket to play in the marketplace and if you do it really, really well, it can be a differential advantage for your business.

Speaker B: Thank you. That's really an interesting point. Perhaps to start with, part of it's protecting the planet, which is the environmental protection. And then I suppose what you're saying it's protecting the company as well. Um, and do they work together or do they work against each other or is it a bit of both?

Speaker C: I think they work together in, in every, in every case, you know. And if we look at the um, the products that ABB sell, you know, ABB positions itself as providing solutions for a low carbon world. Um, you know, pretty much all the drives, you know, all the motors that we sell. There's a, an energy efficiency element to that sale, you know, and improving the um, reducing the energy usage and reducing the losses, you know, improving the sustainability of those businesses.

Speaker B: Thank you. Okay John, um, you might want to comment on that and then tell us what uh, what your view is on what sustainability means.

Speaker D: I think um, it's interesting for us because we kind of discovered the fact that we were sustainable by accident. Bit um, of a story to that really that we, we started out Winslow Adaptive started out um, about 48 years ago making interconnect and dip sockets and this, this kind of product. Um, we came sort of towards the, the 90s when the bottom drops out of that market for UK production. We uh, we got approached by um, the guys at Marconi um to, to make an adapter socket. So, so they had a problem with unavailability, uh, of in fact the obsolescence of an integrated circuit and came to us and said can you make an adapter that puts the new shiny one that we can get into the old sockets? And that's what we did. And so we've been doing that since 1990 and we sort of then realized that actually this is what people should be doing. It's not just to get round obsolescence. I will talk more about obsolescence obviously later. Um, but it's actually, it's what we should be doing. And if we're looking at high um, reliability marketplaces, um, maybe rail, maybe, maybe aerospace and defense, these, these kind of situations, um, the longevity of the product, the life cycle of the product, maybe lasting, lasting 30 or in fact in the UK maybe 50 years, um, is, is paramount importance and actually applying these kind of techniques is the most sustainable thing you can do actually to keep something running for a longer period of time. This is our argument is the best way of achieving some form of true sustainability. Um, it's obviously something that we can all do a little bit towards, and we do our little bit towards as well in terms of trying to bring the company operation towards a lower carbon consumption. Um, but it's really important actually the output. I think it's the kind of the quantity of energy that perhaps gets consumed by the products that we all make that actually perhaps is the one we need to try and slim down.

Speaker B: Thank you. I mean you raised an interesting point there that perhaps. It was said to me, I think in one of these uh, talking industry presentations quite a while ago that people in the UK take a pride in keeping things running forever. And um, I'm guilty because I kept a Ford anglia running for 35 years and then I ran out of spares so I had to do something about that. But I did keep the uh, registration plate. Um, and that may not be the best way to save energy because you, you know, it's, it's a pretty inefficient vehicle in comparison to uh, things that have rolled off the production line since. So whereas I think some other countries tend um, to invest more in new equipment and get the benefits. So, so if you uh, for example look at um, the um, population of robots in the UK, we're, we're pretty low in comparison to other G7 countries, other industrialist countries, UN industrialized countries, um, certainly in terms of robot population per, I don't know, 10,000 employees I think is the, is the figure. And we, we sort of sit down there somewhere between Malta and Thailand, which is quite depressing. But is it, is it because we have that kind of culture of wanting to keep things running that we're not very good at managing sustainability?

Speaker D: I think there's a difference between keeping things running for longer than they should. Um, uh, and I take on board your point about cars, um, I had a classic Mini myself for some years and there's a whole sort of industry that's built up around keeping those lovely vehicles going for longer. But it would never be my daily drive. Um, so yeah, there are two different things and I think if you look at, I talked about the railway network, uh, and they will typically have a um, ah, longevity of 30 years. So that's the specification very often a maintenance contract and everything around the 30 year mark. But in between at 15 years they'll have a technology refresh. So at that point they will undertake maybe some new customer screens, maybe some new technology into USB sockets and things like that, WI fi and so on. Um, so there is a possibility to do that and perhaps that's where we should be aiming Taking sort of a view from those kind of markets, these guys have been doing this for a long period of time and are getting actually really quite good at it. Sorry.

Speaker B: Okay. I, uh, mean, you're Gareth, um, uh, obviously an extensive user of um, the sort of electronics, PCBs that uh, that John is involved in. What's your view about updating equipment and the role of new equipment against keeping older equipment running?

Speaker C: So I think it really depends a lot on what we're talking about. So, um, one of the areas I think where ABB excels is in managing the lifecycle of products. You know, so we launch, you know, if we take um, ACS 600 products as an example, you know, we've got a huge install base of ACS 600 products that are still running today. We've kind of supported them through maintenance upgrades throughout their life. We've changed capacitors. You know, we've kept them running, but eventually when they do come to the end of their life, you know, there's a. There becomes, um, it becomes very difficult to keep them running economically at a certain point and then it's the right time to upgrade. Um, I think what John's talking about, you know, some technologies that allow, allow us to get to that point. I think for motors it's slightly different. You know, I think if you look at an AC motor, um, if you just take, I know as an example, 110 kilowatt, 1500 rpm standard AC motor, um, typically the energy required to build that motor, um, is, represents something like 0.05% of its total energy usage throughout its life. So pretty much 99.95% of the energy that that motor consumes is going to be through the electricity that comes in through the terminals. Um, and by upgrading from IE3, you know, which typically could be 92 and a half percent efficient, up to an i5 motor, which would be 94.2% efficient. So 1.7% improvements in energy efficiency. You could see that there's, you know, a huge saving there in CO2 emissions that's going, that's going to really make a big impact over the life of that motor. And you know, I used to have the same thoughts as, you know, you were saying, really about keeping that car going effectively because the embedded carbon in that car means that actually that offsets the extra fuel it uses, but it really doesn't. With electric motor, you know, you're much better to get that electric motor out and install a new motor and immediately you'll Start reducing carbon footprint of your operation.

Speaker B: Yes. Um, so there's, there's both a financial payback in installing new equipment but you've got to look at the energy payback on a sustainable basis as well. So yeah, so that's given us a good kind of introduction to some of the topics we'll be talking about. Um, I will ask John in a moment to give us a presentation about his specific uh, uh, activities and go into more detail about some of the things we've already discussed. Um, before I do that something I should have mentioned right at the beginning is um, is we want questions from our audience. And so the way to do that is because you're in listen only mode is to use the chat function. There is a Q and A function as well but it tends to be a lot more convenient if everything goes into the chat. And our speakers as well will put information and links to information in the chat as well. So by the time we get to the end of this it will be quite a good reference document for everyone to take away with them and study the subject in more detail. If you want to ask a question, um, the ideal way is to start with a Q. Q colon. That means um, I know it's a question but you might want to make a comment anyway. Um, so um, we already have a question already um in the chat so I'll come on to that in a moment. Um, and if you want to maybe give your question in person, which we can do, put a V colon instead of a Q colon and I'll know that you're willing to be seen and heard as well as to um, put your question in the chat for us to answer. Um, so um, we'll take questions at all kinds of points. Um, we're very unscripted so there's no overall plan but we will have a wash up session at the end to cope with any questions that we haven't had time to cover during the presentations. So please use the chat, ask us anything you want. Um, you've got two excellent speakers here. Um, so um, have a discussion with them and um, with that I will now ask John to explain a bit more about his role, his activities and the relevance of sustainability to those. John?

Speaker D: Yeah, sure. Um, the thing I was going to say was, was about obsolescence really that um, there is, most people don't realize that there is a um, whole sort of sector of management that is actually maintaining these products that I talked about um, over a longer period of time. So there's actually um, an IEC standard 62402 2019. Um, which actually gives you a list of, or at least signpost good practice. It doesn't give you all the answers but it's signpost good practice. Um, and the organization that I'm sort of representing, if you like today, which is the International Institute of Obsolescence Management or the ion, um also which is a sort of a nearly worldwide organization, we're looking for new chapters. We're in Europe, um, we're in the uk, we're in the US we're just opening up in Australia as well. Um, and in France and Germany in Europe. Um, so these guys are spending their days actually not just reacting to an obsolescent problem, which is traditionally how you found out that there was a problem. Something is now end of life. Um, what do we do really what the science suggests is that actually we should be, from the moment that we design a product, we should be thinking, you know, is this recommended for new designs? Is this something that is likely to become a problem for us over the life cycle of this, of this product, whatever that product would be. Um, and it's important uh, to draw a difference between the proactive and the reactive. And it's the proactive that we're trying to promote people and trying to encourage people. It should not be a surprise that if you're trying to maintain something for a 15 year period, um, that something will go obsolete. Particularly with electronics going uh, at ah, the pace that that does. Um, uh, I subscribe to, um, the kind of world that I live in and IOM lives in is promoting longevity of products fundamentally or giving engineers the tools to keep products maintained and spares available for a long period of time.

Speaker B: Um, with the complexity of um, electronic circuits, um, that must introduce a lot of complications to that, doesn't it? Because you know, um, it's not. Well maybe it is but it's not that easy just to make little tweaks to an electronic circuit perhaps in the way that you can to a uh, sort of heavy mechanical construction.

Speaker D: It's not, it's, it's not. But it's something where you know, again there is a team of people, you know, and we, we are some of those people that do this as a day job. And um, when you've done it something as a day job for 30 years you've, you pretty much got the idea how it works. You know, it's, it might be things like changing voltages for new processors, for instance, it might be slowing down signals. There's various things that you can do within electronics. Um, uh, and of course the great rule of electronics generally is it gets smaller which is brilliant for the kind of adapter and interposer function that we very often use where the new component is smaller than the old one. So you have some spare real estate um, to do those changes to slow things down, to change the voltage and so on. So yeah, there's always a way around it. Ah, but just look for the experience.

Speaker B: So I mean Gareth, you are, will be a specifier of PCBs, won't you? So what, what, what does ABB do in terms of thinking in you know, uh, in terms of the longevity specifically of printed circuit boards and um, related devices for, to go into drives and how easy they are to modify further on.

Speaker C: So and you know this is, this isn't an area that I'm directly involved with in abb, but you know I can talk quite generally about this that um, choosing the right components that have the right long longevity is absolutely critical. And um, there'll be a team within ABB looking at this, you know, managing this throughout the product's life cycle and looking at engineering alternative products into, into the existing products as and when required to manage this and to, to make the last time buyers required to see the product through its life cycle. So yeah, it's definitely a um, you know, something that comes pretty high up on the agenda of any drives manufacturer.

Speaker B: Now you're, you're a big company so you will have a team that, that can look into this. But is it more of a challenge in you know, small and medium sized enterprises where they don't really have the time or resources to look into it? Um, Gary, I'll ask both of you but Gareth first.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I imagine it probably is and I imagine but you know, I've worked alongside other companies for example that make elevator controllers in the past who asked these small companies and it's always a concern, you know and they, they, everybody has to choose their components very carefully to achieve that longevity that they expect and need. But from time to time they have to re engineer.

Speaker B: Yeah, we'll come back to um, your program for working with other companies later on I'm sure which I guess can help small and medium sized enterprises to benefit from your expertise um, and share uh, information between one another. So we'll come back to that bit. John, what's your experience of the difference between the large company and the others?

Speaker D: Yeah, well I, I'm a small company person myself. Most of my history, recent uh, years has been been in the SME sector. Um, so I, I'll kind of comment from that side. I think it's, I think it's, it's more difficult to have a dedicated person in an SME. I think that's fairly obvious. But um, you know, in, in the larger corporate if you like, there's probably a department that will manage the obsolescence function rather than just a person. And I think when you get down to the small side of SME, it's difficult to even have a person. It's very difficult to even have necessarily training. And I think this is where something like um, uh, the Institute of Obsolescence Management is able to help some of the smaller people, um, with sort of training and assistance. Uh, having said that, I've seen the other side of it. I've seen corporates who still don't want to join into the organization. They maybe don't want to share quite so much. Um, that's a possibility. So that does happen. I've seen both sides.

Speaker B: So tell me a little bit about how the institute would help, um, smaller um, organizations to share expertise and to um, come up with common needs.

Speaker D: Okay, well, what's built around the institute has been a group of solution providers. So um, on the one hand the first thing that may help is actually simply exchanging, you know, having meetings and exchanging information and best practice with other people, I. E. Networking. Um, the second thing then is that there are organizations that offer training in, I mentioned the IEC standard. There are organizations that offer training and certification that gets you into uh, sort of associate membership or membership of the, of the institute. There then are also ah, a layer of solution providers like ourselves at Winslow Adaptix, who target a specific problem that people have, whether it's a corporate or whether it's an SME. Um, and we offer services to help that, to mitigate that particular aspect of the obsolescence problem. Um, so yeah, so that's what the, what uh, the Institute of Obsolescence Management will do to help at both levels.

Speaker B: And how does one go about joining that institute as a member?

Speaker D: Okay, well, the best thing to do is to go find us on LinkedIn perhaps. There's quite a lot going on on LinkedIn. We in fact have um, a webinar coming up on the topic of pfas, um, which is something that she's sort of bringing unexpected obsolescence. It's something that affects everybody actually, and they don't yet know that it will. But I know that um, we're going to be talking about some of the major chemical producers who are actually stopping something like ten plus thousand products from their product range because of uh, well, predominantly European and American legislation. So best thing to do is to find us on LinkedIn. I'm hoping we can put um, uh, somebody can get a link up actually at some point just to drive people to it, which might be tricky for me where I am.

Speaker B: I'll do that for you. Yeah, I'll do that when uh, you're busy chatting. Now, can you just tell us a little bit more about pfas? Um, this is fluoropolymer.

Speaker D: Um, yes. I've got to say first of all I'm by no means a subject expert. Um, but what I do know is that these chemicals have found their way into typically into things like flame retardants and lubricants and things which um, are um, sort of bendy and flexible and fire retardant. Which you think about, it affects so many pieces of equipment in the electronics industry. Even though it's not necessarily, you'd think it was a kind of a mechanical type problem rather than an electronic one. But it affects absolutely everything from lubricants that are used to extract, uh, integrated circuits from molds and so on and so forth. So there's lots of aspects that we just have no idea how it will affect us I think. So it's important for everybody, you know, whether they are in the chemical industry or whether they're in electronics or mechanical, to perhaps join us on that webinar.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean the only side of it I know anything about really is the fluoropolymer side, you know, for ptfe. Yeah. And there's a range of other related fluoropolymers that are mainly sort of non stick and corrosion resistant. Um, now whether, whether I guess this, this would cover them as well. Um, because I mean they have great uses as well as perhaps some recently acknowledged hazards.

Speaker D: I mean, you know, the problem is, is that there will be, I'm sure, um, replacements for those products. It will take time because of the sheer volume of them, but it's going to ripple through. Because what happens is that you go back in the obsolescence world. You go back to the original spec sheet, the drawing and the drawing will call up that particular product and to change that drawing maybe will involve re qualification, uh, a whole sort of raft of extra work that you wouldn't necessarily expect.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's very difficult because you can't necessarily find a universal replacement for some. I mean asbestos is a very good example actually and actually is something I did work on perhaps more than 30 years ago. Eek. Um, but, um, you have to look at each application individually and, and work out what the best solution is for that one. Because, you know, asbestos was used in insulation, brakes, polymers, you know, all kinds of different applications. And there's no one universal replacement. And if there is a universal replacement, it often had the same physical characteristics of the one you're trying to replace. So, uh, potentially it could cause some of the same problems. So, you know, it was, it was a big industry and a big project in itself. And I think, you know, fluoropolymers would be kind of similar really, because there's a lot of different application areas. So, uh, so that's definitely one to watch. Okay, well, before we come on to Gareth, who's been sitting there very patiently, um, there's um, a question in the chat, uh, which I'm struggling there. Ah, we go, um, it's from Michael Nicholson, who, um, who is from another association, actually, the ieep, and I hope that I can persuade him to pop on and uh, and chat to you guys later on. And he's talking about the supply of critical raw materials, which is another aspect of sustainability. I mean, we, we know that, that in, um, uh, batteries for electric cars, for example, we got all kinds of, um, issues with lithium and with rare earth materials, and not just about the amount that's available, but where they are actually being extracted as well, which is quite a geopolitical sensitive, um, issue in itself. So the question Michael's asking is whether there is a growing concern about the supply of critical raw materials, um, and does that affect calculations over what is sustainable? I mean, I suppose if something's going to run out, it's not going to be sustainable. Um, and whether or not you keep machines and widgets running versus introducing new machines that are dependent or more dependent on critical raw materials. Gareth, do you have an issue on that? Is that something that you.

Speaker C: I've got a few thoughts on it. You know, my thoughts are that somebody buys a new machine because they need to, to be competitive in their marketplace. You know, whatever they're doing, they're making an investment to either be, um, to make the products faster, to make the products better, to make the products more reliable, to add value to the products that they're selling. Um, and I think that if you don't invest in this new machinery, then again, you know, this idea of sustainability as, um, survival comes into play for the business. So I think the idea of not, not investing in new machines, you know, isn't viable option for most businesses. They've got to invest in new machines, they've got to keep innovating and they've got to keep with the market. I think what's critical is the circularity around that, you know, and how you reuse those materials. You know, does, uh, if I take an example, you know, the, the raw materials in an IE3 motor pretty similar to the raw materials in an IE5 motor. You know, with SynRM, they're just configured in a different way. There's technology in there which makes that motor more efficient. Um, so you're not necessarily, you know, creating a big problem with, um, with, with raw materials. I don't believe, you know, you, you can reuse those motors and um, recycle them. That's what, uh, all of our partners do actually. You know, they take those motors and they, they get them into that recycling cycle. So I think circularity is key really, rather than not investing.

Speaker A: Talking industry Topical debate from the world of engineering, automation and manufacturing brought to you by DFA Media Group. This episode is sponsored by Drives and Controls, the number one event for automation, power transmission and motion control, taking place the 5th and 6th 6th June 2024 at the NEC Birmingham in association with Smart Manufacturing and Engineering Week. Register now at www.drives-expo.com.