Influencing Minds, Transforming Lives: The Power Of Pre-suasion With Dr. Robert Cialdini

Speaker A: Welcome to Take the lead radio with

Speaker B: Dr. Diane Hamilton, where she interviews some of the most successful leaders, entrepreneurs, authors,

Speaker A: speakers, and other individuals who will inspire you to take the lead in your

Speaker B: career and personal life. And now, here is Dr. Diane Hamilton.

Speaker A: Welcome to Take the Lead radio. This is Dr. Diane Hamilton, and I'm so glad you joined us today, because my guest today is Dr. Robert Cialdini. He is the New York Times bestselling author of Influence and Pre Suasion. He's a keynote speaker and the founder of the Cialdini Institute. I am so excited to have you here. Welcome, Dr. Cialdini.

Speaker B: Well, thank you, Diane. I'm looking forward to, um, our interaction.

Speaker A: Yes. We were talking a little before the show. Both my brother and sister had taken your class at asu, and I'm so bummed I didn't get to take that class. I. I took Mayors. I took all the other ones. I guess I don't know how.

Speaker B: I'm sorry, too, because they were good students. I'm sure you would be as well.

Speaker A: Well, my sister said you got her up on stage and she was just terrified. But you were really funny. She said everybody loved you in the class. And, uh, my brother said he actually had him do an experiment on how much people would pick up trash at Legend City.

Speaker B: Yeah. We did a study on, um, what caused people to litter in public places, and what could we do to prevent that. How could we reduce the likelihood that people would despoil the environment by littering into it? Yeah. And he was part of that.

Speaker A: Well, that's so interesting because, uh, I think that a lot of your work ties into a lot of things. I've been interested and studied. I've studied a lot to deal with sales and, uh, emotional intelligence, curiosity, and perception. So a lot of what you deal with ties into that. So I want to start out a little bit, um, going back to influence, because that's your big blockbuster that you got a lot of recognition for. And I. I think what's interesting to me is just to define influence, but to also compare. I'd like to know how it differs from persuasion, uh, and pre suasion and how you define those.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, um, influence involves change. It means you can't claim to have influenced anyone unless you can register a change. And it could be in an attitude or a belief or a behavior. But if you have arranged for people to move in a particular direction, and most likely your direction, you have influenced them. But you can influence in a lot of different ways. You can, um, you can order People to do something. If you're in charge of them, you can pay them to do it. If you have the resources, you can penalize them if they don't do it. If you're some sort of a, uh, regulatory agency, you can even trick people to do something to cause them to change. But for me, the key is persuasion, in which you don't m. Mobilize them into action by, um, power. You do it by authority. Influence, that is showing them that what you have to offer is in their best interest so that they believe you, they trust you, that that's the case. And you do that by being ethical about the process. Now, persuasion is the last thing that you mentioned. Uh, the book Influence was about what persuasive techniques you put into a message to move people in your direction, to get them to agree with what you have to offer. Pre suasion is what you do immediately before you send your message, to put them in a state of mind that's receptive to the core features of your message, the things that are most beneficial for them and in that message. Uh, so it's a. It's a piece of persuasive real estate that exists before we make our case. And most people don't see that as a. A destination for influencing people. But I wrote a book on, um, on, um, how to do it.

Speaker A: Yeah, you did. Yeah. I think it's interesting just to define those words, because persuasion sometimes is what we consider. You know, people see it as maybe cajoling or seducing, and then other people see it as positive. And you're obviously talking in the positive realm. Right, right.

Speaker B: I'm talking about informing people into ascent, educating them into the right choice to make.

Speaker A: So my biggest interest when I was reading this again, because it's been a while since I've read some of your work. Um, and then now that you have it all updated, it's fun to see the updates that you've included. But, uh, what do you. How do you look at social influence now and is it all at all? Uh, do you take credit for any of that, of how people have utilized what you studied to be so successful at getting people attention?

Speaker B: You know, I don't take credit for the psychological principles that lead people to move in, uh, the direction of a communicator. But we did categorize them and give them, uh, labels and meaning that allowed people to recognize when they were in the situation available for use or when they were being used on us in ways that we might want to deflect or Reject. So in that sense, uh, there are names that we've associated with them and meanings that we've, uh, attributed to them that I think, uh, I can take some responsibility for.

Speaker A: Well, I think you had written that your initial thought was not to write a book to help people sell and market and all that. It was more about to tell if you were influenced.

Speaker B: Right, right. It was for the consumer how to recognize, resist, deflect and so on, undo or unwelcome influence attempts. But the interesting thing was that no consumer group ever called after the publication of my book. But my phone hasn't stopped ringing with requests from marketers or advertisers or salespeople or managers saying, well, how do we harness this set of, uh, powerful principles of human behavior?

Speaker A: Well, it is very powerful. I mean, you cannot get on a webinar seminar, anything where, you know, this is what we offer, this price. This is what you would get, you know, if you bought it all, but, and then by the time you get to the end, it's really a different price. And now that's a lot of what you were researching, right? A lot.

Speaker B: And what I did was not just to stay located in the academic community and the journals of, uh, our profession, uh, of uh, persuasion science. I actually infiltrated, um, undercover as many of the training programs as I could get access to from the professions whose business it is to get others to say yes to them. What. So I, I entered sales programs and marketing programs and fundraising programs and public relations training programs and so on to see what they were saying worked for them, to see what really was effective outside of the laboratories in which academics were studying the persuasion process, what really worked in the um, the, the influence wars that are being fought all around us every day.

Speaker A: So did you have a sales background or marketing background at all? I know you taught marketing. I know you. You uh, know professor emeritus for both psychology and marketing, right? At asu?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So did you have that background prior to all this research, uh, in sales or marketing, or did you gain it later?

Speaker B: Here was my background. Mhm. I was a sucker all my life for the appeals of various things. People or fundraisers would come to my door and I remember standing in unwanted possession of magazine subscriptions or having given contributions to causes, charities I'd never heard of, and saying to myself, you know, I didn't want that thing that I just purchased on its. Because of its features. It must have been the way that the features were presented to me, the psychological hooks that were incorporated into the presentation, into the delivery of the Thing that got me to move in that direction. Isn't that interesting? That would be worth studying what those psychological hooks are.

Speaker A: It is.

Speaker B: So. Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, you've obviously broken it down in a way that people can really, uh, learn so much about how to market better, how to sell, Sell better, even though it wasn't your initial intention to go that direction. But I think that everybody bought into how important this is to get their message out. But I think it's important to kind of go back, like, who has influence or how can we get it? I mean, let's go back to the beginning of the basics of your book.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think we all have, uh, the potential to be influential, although some of us make much more use of it than others.

Speaker A: Well, you know, I think some people tend to, what, in my experience, just being in sales for decades. Well, uh, you. You're raised a certain way, you're around a certain style, and you get a certain reward, um, from doing certain things in our. In your youth that you go, oh, that works. But then other people, I don't see that they've had that same background, experience. So how much did you see or upbringing influencing their style and sales and all these training courses that you attended, did, uh, you find out any more about your counterparts?

Speaker B: Well, I'll tell you what I learned about myself there was that I was born into an entirely Italian family in a predominantly Polish neighborhood in a historically German city, Milwaukee, in an otherwise rural state. And I realized that in each one of those settings, the rules were a little different about how you best communicate, how you best persuade, how you make an argument that's going to be successful. And I realized that the proper way to approach every situation is not to have a favorite persuasive tactic or approach. Uh, no, you have to take a look at the situation and what's there available honestly for you to engage and then bring it to the surface. Make it the core focus of your appeal based on what the people in that situation resonate to, uh, historically or, um, perhaps, as you say, because of some history, uh, that they have precedence that they. They might have had growing up.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I had Daniel Goleman on the show. We talked a lot about, um, emotional intelligence and of course, and how it tied into curiosity. Since I study curiosity, and I. I think in a lot of my research, I found that your environment has a big influence on your curiosity. People with whom you've had contact. As part of what I found of the four factors. And it's. It's so fascinating in sales and when you're marketing and all this because I think a lot of people just want to do a uh, canned approach of selling the way they would like to receive the message. And that can be really problematic if you don't get that empathy and that perspective from. Don't you think that emotional intelligence?

Speaker B: I think that's great insight. People sometimes ask me, well, so my clients will say, so what, what should I be looking for? What's the one trait I should be looking for in uh, let's say a salesperson? Right. And my answer is empathy. Mhm.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Somebody who doesn't judge what is the most appropriate or likely effective approach in this situation by self reflection, looking inside themselves, but empathizing with the uh, with the market. Who are the people that you're speaking? What are they likely to resonate with? What are they most likely to find, uh, congruent with the way they like to make, uh, their choices? So it's that ability to get out of yourself, put yourself uh, into the, into the shoes, into the head of the people that you're trying to influence that makes you the uh, superior kind, uh, of persuasive communicator.

Speaker A: Does that require curiosity to build the empathy? So you know which questions to ask to get there?

Speaker B: Exactly. I think it's curiosity seasoned with self interest. If you know the right questions to ask, you're going to be more successful, uh, in, in that process. Yeah.

Speaker A: So how do you know the right questions to ask?

Speaker B: Well, I think the, the you, you know the right questions to ask by looking into the situation and seeing what's available for you there in terms of the factors that, that are currently residing in that situation. I claim that there are seven universal principles of influence. One of them is authority. Another one is social proof. Another one is scarcity. When you look into the situation, are there true authorities whose opinion you can point to that support your position, use that, bring that to prominence? Uh, is there true consensus or popularity associated with what it is that you are offering? That's essentially social proof. Bring that to the surface. Is there genuine dwindling opportunity or uniqueness about that scarcity? Bring that to the surface and what happens is you never treat these people unethically. You are simply pointing to something in the situation that already exists. You're not counterfeiting it or manufacturing it in any way that is dishonest. And so both sides benefit from knowing about true authority, knowing about true popularity, seizing genuine, uh, scarce opportunities and so on. So who loses under those circumstances? I don't think anybody loses and as a result you have a long term partner, somebody's likely to want to come back to you the next time they're interested in uh, some kind of a commercial exchange.

Speaker A: Well, you mentioned the principles that you added, the uh, identity principle. Right.

Speaker B: Later, something we call unity.

Speaker A: Uh, oh, unity. I'm sorry, unity. And what made you add that? Why wasn't it there originally? I'm just curious. The background on that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I always thought that it was an accelerant to the others. The unity principle is that people say yes to those they see as one of them. Those people who, they would be able to use the term we to describe that they share uh, a social identity. And uh, if you can honestly bring that to the surface that you are in that category, all influence, um, barriers come down. And I always thought that, well, if you could do that, you know, along along with scarcity, you, you'd in, you'd increase the effectiveness of each of the principles. But then I recognized that no, this one stands alone. It doesn't need those other principles to work. It can work by itself. I'll give you an example, uh, from um, a study that was done on a university campus where researchers asked a young woman who was um, of college age, asked her to dress like a college student, go on to a heavily uh, traffic part of campus and ask for donations to a good cause, the United Way. And because she was similar to them, one of the principles we talk about is liking you like people who are like you. She was getting some contributions. But if they asked her to add one sentence to her request to say before she made the request for a donation. I'm a student here too. Donations increased by 450%.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: So, uh, it wasn't just being similar to somebody. It's being of some. You're that that person is of you and your group is one of you. Right. That changes everything.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So it deserved a space in my new version of the book, a new chapter.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, we're seeing a lot less of people feeling like they can relate sometimes with social media and the news and all this. And I remember talking to my sister a little bit about, she said she loved when you got into cognitive dissonance, dissonance in class. And she was curious about your opinion on how it relates to politics and what we're seeing now, uh, any of your research. Have you done anything in that realm?

Speaker B: Well, we, yes, we, we've done some research on um, the idea of unity, uh, and the extent to which people feel unity within their political parties, for example. And we see it happening now. Those individuals who are of the same party as some prominent politician excuse that person's various faults and violations and it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. It's that he or she is one of us that drives the decision for how to vote or how to contribute and so on, on both sides.

Speaker A: Right, right, right.

Speaker B: And so what you're seeing is something very, very common, uh, uh, a tendency to favor and follow those who share a category. A sense of togetherness or we ness.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And there's a, there's a small thing, for example, that I talk about these days that I think is possible to get people to feel that sense of we ness with us, uh, when we're asking for their support. Let's say you're at work and you have an idea for a new initiative. And if it's successful, if you can move it up the ladder, your reputation will be burnished and advanced inside your organization. Um, but to do so you need the support of your colleagues who ah, will agree with you and go to bat for you on this new initiative. And so what we typically do is to show them a summary or a draft or an outline of our idea and try to get their support by saying m, can you give me your opinion on this? I would really appreciate it. Well, getting their support is exactly the right thing to do so that you can move it up the the ladder. But asking for your opinion, that person's opinion is a mistake.

Speaker A: And that is because when you ask

Speaker B: for an opinion, you get a critic.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, you get somebody who does the opposite, opposite of coming together with you. They take a half step back from you psychologically. They separate and they go inside themselves and evaluate the pros and cons of the. And they give you a critique. They Right, uh, if you change one word and instead of asking for their opinion, you ask for their advice, you get a partner, you get someone who is a collaborator with you now on this project, on this idea. And the research is very clear. Not only do you get more support for your idea, you get better recommendations for how to modify or improve your idea because they're of you, they're now of the project. They're not just evaluating it from a distance with that one word, you have created somebody who is, uh, who is a collaborator and a cooperator with you on the project.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's really important and I think it's interesting to get other people's input in the right way. Of course But I think of a situation where even going back to Daniel Goldman talking about emotional intelligence, he was saying that he really thought you needed 360 evaluation to get a real good idea of your emotional intelligence level. But I've talked to certain people in the business setting where they've done 360 evaluations, where people all chime in and they all look at everybody's evaluations and talk about it in a public forum. Now that would be the absolute worst scenario, wouldn't it?

Speaker B: Well, if you get a lot of divisiveness in there, a lot of difference of opinion, but that you can change that by not asking for their opinion.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Or the newest research shows their feedback, asking for their feedback produces the same inferior result.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because they step away from use rather than with you. You know, um, I'm trying to remember who it was, uh, who made this, who said this, um, quote. I'm blanking on his name now, but he said when we ask for advice, we're usually looking for an accomplice.

Speaker A: That's great. Love that quote.

Speaker B: Well, here's what the reason. I love it too. The research shows if you get the advice, you get that accomplice.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And now, now you've got a group of people who are with you on this because they've become part of the, uh, proposal themselves by, uh, contributing their advice to it.

Speaker A: Well, you know, there's a lot of other aspects to, um, what everybody's trying to do in sales and in, um, reaching customers. I wrote a brand publishing course for Forbes many years ago. I remember the CMOs were all struggling with, uh, how to reach, uh, their customers, uh, with a personalized message at scale. And so that was the real challenge because it's easy to do in a small group. And then, you know, so now we have Chat GPT, we have all these new tools. Since your initial research of, you know, how we reach people, I'm curious how you think that this kind of technology is going to impact people. Can you use artificial intelligence to, to accomplish that at scale in any kind of way? Eventually, if not now, because you've got this artificial intelligence in there that can do different things based on, if they recognize, maybe it builds kind of a false empathy or something. How does that relate to what you've seen? And what do you think of Chat GDP in that realm?

Speaker B: It's already being done. Even before there was chat gdp.

Speaker A: Is it any different now that they've got more.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's going to be more efficient, it's going to be easier to collect that information about any one individual. You can scrape the Internet and get all kinds of information about people ahead of time to say what is likely to move that person in your direction. Um, and then, and then craft a message that is aligned with that is going to make that more likely.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And more efficient. It's going to be able to do it quickly and with a press of a button. Sometimes what worries me is the propensity for deception in there and, and the extent to which uh, it's possible to create fakes of one sort or another. Deep fakes.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: For example. And I think what we have to have in uh, online is a set of penalties for people who use that. In the same way that we penalize um, um, deceptive advertising for example.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, we should be able, we should have a system, uh, uh, that allows us to penalize fake misinformation that we receive. Uh, so that those people are, those people are, are sanctioned for that. Otherwise it's going to be, I don't know what will happen to us. We'll be without any moorings when we don't know what's true anymore. So we have to have some guardrails in place to um, to sting those people who would take advantage of this.

Speaker A: It's really hard. Those deep fakes are so real. It's, it's just amazing what they could do. And my daughter used to work for Fetchback, so I saw a lot of retargeting and all that when that first came out. And you know, I've seen behind the curtain a bit in some of these companies of what they were able to do in the past. But what it's turned into recently to me is just hard to, to fathom how they can catch some of this. And it's uh, I agree. I think they, they do need to have some warnings about this. I know it's a big deal now because in universities now you can write your whole entire paper, uh, and it's harder for the teachers to catch this sometimes. I, when I went to asu, I remember they relied more on assessments than papers at that time. And now I see more reliance on papers than assessments. Do you think that that's going to flip flop? I mean what are you seeing in the education realm?

Speaker B: There's always going to be a push and a pull. It's like what's happening with fake reviews where companies that will purchase fake uh, reviewers or have their employees generate these things and, and so on. And then there are algorithms that the review sites are developing to catch those, which then causes the fakers to find other ways. So it's always going to be this push and pull and uh, it's regrettable, but it's. I, uh, think what we have to do, we have to be as much on the offensive as on the defensive to um, uh, reduce this.

Speaker A: I agree, and I think so.

Speaker B: For example, there's an interesting study of, you know, the number of stars that you get for any product or service or book that you. One of the most interesting things I wrote a new version of Influence, and one of the most interesting that's it over there in the corner findings was that I, uh, was that having a five star review is not optimal.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Because people assume that you've cheated to get there. The best review number in terms of getting a conversion from a visitor to your site to a convert is the range between 4.3 and 4.7 stars. Below 4.3 people say, maybe not so hot. Right above 4.7 with a large number of reviewers, people say, oh, this looks fishy to me. So everybody's on guard now for um, that problem associated with fakes. So we have to be able to constantly evolve, uh, to catch them and um, penalize them.

Speaker A: And I think that that's so interesting because I think we become kind of numb to these reviews in a way because we've seen so much of this happening. And I, I've had people contact me when you write books. They're like, hey, do you want us to make, you know, this look good or that look good? And I love that you focus on ethics. I taught a lot of ethics courses in my day and uh, thousands of business courses. And most of them touch on some form of ethics. And, and I noticed that in your book that you, um, you wrote about the Tylenol case, which it comes up a lot in my courses. But the one thing I didn't know and I forgot until I reread your book was that everybody was playing the lottery numbers. I love that uh, statistic. Can you tell that story?

Speaker B: So of course, the lot, the Tylenol case, somebody went in and put poison capsules into Tylenol bottles on the shelves of various drugstores. And uh, when it became public that this was going on, the news media sent out the bin numbers of those bottles that had been had these poisonous capsules inserted in them. Because there were particular kinds of places where this happened and certain, um, bin numbers associated with the, the bottles that were, um, despoiled. All right, so those numbers, people started playing those numbers on the lottery because they were at top of consciousness.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So this idea that what is top of mind is the thing that guides behavior is essentially the logic of my book Pre Suasion where if you can before you send your message, put the concept that is central to your message into the intellectual environment of that person, that potential buyer before they encounter your message, it will be top of mind. And what is top of mind guides behavior.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Ah, without any m. Necessary logical reason for it except that it is salient.

Speaker A: I, I think it's, it's really fascinating how we do that without even recognizing that. And I, I know you train people to, to learn some of these techniques and how we think and all that and I, I wanted to get to what you're doing at ah, the Cialdini Institute because I don't know if a lot of people are familiar with this and I want to. I found it fascinating because I know it's about learning programs for companies and universities and of course that's right up my alley to learn about this stuff. So I, I want to know. I mean certification programs are kind of the new education these days instead of maybe as more so than degree programs growing and growing in terms of popularity. And I've written certain certificate certification programs as well. What uh, do you do at the Cialdini Institute? And uh, just give me a little background about what that is.

Speaker B: So we have uh, an online on demand program for employing ethical influence for business success. So and uh, so you can purchase uh, uh that program and you become a practitioner. A Cialdini ethical influence practitioner. At the end of that, with the knowledge of how best. What the research says are the best ways to elevate your success while elevating the outcomes of the people who you convince uh, to come in your direction. And um, as a result you um, can um, take that forward. But we also have uh, the ability to get um, involved in a coaching program where after you've taken the practitioner's uh, uh ah program you can become a coach or engage a coach to help you every day or every week with uh, the implementation and the application of uh, what you learned in an ongoing way.

Speaker A: Well, I saw some really great reviews. I'm just thinking McDonald's, you increased sales by 55%. I was looking at just all the big company M names of the percentage increases that you've helped. Um, I love that Warren Buffett said Influence is one of the best books of all time. You have some great reviews on your site just about your work and the site and all the things that, uh, you offer there. And is this, Is this your. Where you spend most of your time with your. The institute or what. What other, um, uh, what else do you have going on at the same time? Are you still writing books? Are you not teaching at ASU anymore?

Speaker B: Are you. No, I'm, I'm retired to do, uh, to do writing. And this Cialdini Institute, um, I wrote the scripts for all of the, um, the recordings within that, um, that program. And, uh, now we're, uh, doing that. But I also engage in research with my fellow, uh, uh, former graduate students who are now on the faculty of other universities, and we collaborate and continue to do research because I love it. I love, you know, you, you, you study curiosity. Well, that's one of the things that's, uh, that's one of my weaknesses. I'm curious. I'm a curious man, you know, to a fault. So, yeah, I'm still cranking the, the. The research machine, you know, that's awesome.

Speaker A: You know, uh, Warren Buffett's quote on research, I mean, on curiosity, was you need a lot of curiosity for a long, long time. And I think, you know, everybody quotes Einstein and everybody else. But what I found is interesting about curiosity is the lack of great research that you can get to tie it in to engagement, innovation. I mean, the actual numbers, like, you're going to save XYZ numbers. And if you ask Chat, GDP or any of those sites, they'll say, well, it's intuitive. And they kind of like, yeah, you know, this is, you know, but a lot of companies want to see data. Have you ever done anything in that realm and studying data like that?

Speaker B: Well, not, uh, about curiosity.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But in each of the seven principles of influence, Right. One of our pillars is that we only present, uh, recommendations that are based on scientifically grounded, properly controlled research. Um, and if, if it, if those numbers aren't there, we don't make the claim for them. We don't go on the basis of punches or speculations or anecdotes. It's got to be based in, um, science and grounded in proper research.

Speaker A: Well, I think it's really fun that you went in and did all that research as far as taking the courses at the sales reps. I bet that must have been very fascinating and exhausting at the same time, wasn't it, Diane?

Speaker B: The most interesting research project of my life was being essentially a spy of sorts and going undercover into all of these, uh, all of these training programs where people were telling me what worked for them. MHM and I'll have to say there was an interesting feature of it, uh, because I was in all kinds of domains. But if, if I was in uh, let's say a marketing program, they would say, you know, marketing is not the same as sales. And then if I went to an advertising training program, they say, you know, advertising is, isn't the same as marketing. And if I went to public relations, they would say public relations isn't the same as advertising. And for uh, you know, charities solicitate. That's not the same as these other. And they were right, they're, they each were different, but they were missing something crucial in focusing on the differences between them and their, their uh, sister, uh, disciplines. They weren't asking, well, what's the same?

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's what I looked for. And it turned out there were just seven things that were the same that everybody was using whose business it is to get people to say yes to.

Speaker A: That's so important. You, uh, know, I, I worked for AstraZeneca for nearly 20 years and when in the training programs and all that, one thing I found interesting that they had me do as a sales rep, they had me work with the, the marketing department at one point to look at their visuals and take them out into the field and see it from a sales person's perspective. And I think they were ahead of their time. In fact, when they um, would rate us, I mean this is 1980 at one point they were rating us on our concern for impact of how much we cared, how we came across to other. And you didn't see that back then really. And so I think all the stuff that has come out since then has been so fascinating and you were obviously behind so, so much of what everybody has come to learn of how to, you know, reach people the way they want to be reached and then to get uh, the impact that we want to have and to have this great influence. So I was very excited to have you on the show. I just wanted to know if there's anything that you want to talk about before we go because I know you've got a big webinar tomorrow I think with the Cialdini Institute. So I'm going to put this up on YouTube today in case anybody wants to join that. But anything else that you want to share, any websites or anything?

Speaker B: Well, it's the Cialdini.com is the link to the website for the um, launch webinar where they'll be able to get um, access to what we have to offer and the rationale for why that might be in their interests. Um. And, you know, we're excited about this work. I. I don't like to say we're excited about this. Have you heard anybody who doesn't say we're very excited about this?

Speaker A: This is something.

Speaker B: Here's what I'll say. I'm enthusiastic about it. Let me say that.

Speaker A: Well, and this will be ongoing. Tomorrow's the launch. But they can go anytime, right?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So that link. Cialdini.com.

Speaker A: that's awesome. Thank you so much, Dr. Cialdini. This was so interesting. And I hope everybody checks out your books and your site. And I loved it.

Speaker B: I enjoyed it, I have to say.