The Historian's Lens: Uncovering Hospitality's Rich Past with Mark Young

Josh Ramsey: It's nice to have you here, Mark. I would love to, hear a little bit more about you. How would you like to introduce yourself? Mark Young: I'm a historian.

I have a PhD in history and I for, I think it was 10 years up in Illinois. And my wife is also a historian. And we met and went to the University of Texas got our PhDs there Josh Ramsey: Okay. Mark Young: Then she was offered a job at the history department at the University of Houston.

And I came down and was working through the, the history department over there. And colleague said Mark, you have archive experience, don't you? And I said yes, because when I was in grad school, I worked at the LBJ Presidential Library What is now called the Briscoe Center, a huge archive over there Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: of amazing collections.

And he told me that about the Hilton College, they needed an archivist over at the Hilton College, and I had never heard of school. And but with the name Conrad Hilton, I kind of figured, oh, okay I should read, be my guest, just so I can learn something. I mean, I knew who Conrad Hilton was, because, Being a historian, I. I read the book all the way through the first of probably six or seven times I've read it.

The then Dean John Bowen hired me, took me over to the archive and it was make sense of it, Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: and and then just working with the Hilton foundation, Hilton family members, and then various people at Hilton corporate. we've been able to get the archive in pretty good shape and we continue to collect material, Josh Ramsey: What does that look like? So what would you be collecting?

Mark Young: almost any and everything related to the hospitality industry, By far our focus is Hilton. We also collect other hotel brands, companies, and restaurants too. , and travel and tourism too. Because we're at a public university.

are able to come here and do research in all Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Okay. And so this would be like articles advert, like old advertisements, books Artifacts as well? Okay.

Mark Young: Cause artifacts are really, they help tell the story Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: see how things change. At the menus, I mean, yeah, the prices, from way back when are amazing. But if you see the artwork that they install, like we, recently acquired a, I it's a 1936 menu the Lubbock Hilton.

Josh Ramsey: Wow. Okay. Mark Young: and while the prices are amazing and that, What food they were offering Point in time, but you also see how Hilton included images of his other Hilton properties, at that point. Josh Ramsey: Yeah Mark Young: and you can, you see those images and I can see things later on.

In advertisements, how this menu is the earliest I can document it. I see the same thing happening later Josh Ramsey: setting a trend that then others follow along. Yeah, that's something that I, wanted to talk about with you is this, idea of, I think there's a lot of stuff within, what you've done in archiving and your observations probably that you've seen trends being set. And we'd love to hear, some of those examples, some of those stories.

Mark Young: Well, for me, I have just a couple of images, that's all of the opening of the El Paso Hilton, which opened in 1929. But this was the property that he opened or he announced it's going to be built. And then the great depression starts, but still opens the property. And if you look at those pictures.

That the lobby is grander, is bigger, and you see other little touches that, you know, Oh, this is the earliest I see this in what becomes a standard in a Hilton hotel. And by, , the first Hilton he opened, the first hotel with his name on it that he opens is the Dallas Hilton 1925. And why that was cutting edge, no rooms on the west wall, a ceiling fan and Every room, and I should say for people who don't know, Dallas gets extremely hot in the summertime, You see these introductions of technology that can make the guests experience a little bit better.

Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: And by the time he builds the El Paso property, you see it even more so, but then the Great Depression hits and then he almost loses everything. And then he's got to build himself back up. And then World War Two hit.

So, I mean, there's no money for anything other than the war effort. Mark Young: Not until the. World War II, and you've got to give a couple of years for the economy to shake out and get back into a normal peacetime type of economy after the war Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: that you began to see the additions of things.

And, the first hotel he built ground up after World War II was the Beverly Hilton And that's mid fifties. And by then you see all these. by the fifties standards, luxurious items coming into this hotel, They would become sort of, a company standard for the Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Young: So he had this ability to kind of see things, but he would also freely admits that, certain things he thought would work well and they just don't work out. So, and That's the beauty of being my guest. As a historian who has read more memoirs, usually political memoirs than I want to Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: It was refreshing to read it because he talked about his mistakes, owned up to them, Josh Ramsey: Yeah.

Mark Young: Persevered and went Josh Ramsey: . I pulled this up before I came in the room today. I found it in my shelf. It's been a long time, but you can see I've got an old copy as well.

Yeah, when I started at Hilton, I didn't really know about, Conrad Hilton, but then just like hearing these stories about. not a perfect person, like somebody that did really, try to push the limits in so many ways , what really stuck with me is this concept of dreaming big dreams. Right. And to accomplish great things, you've got to dream big dreams.

And what you're saying, right. Of this in, or if you're dreaming big dreams. You will face setbacks like the depression you go through wars, you almost lose it all. But if you really have this this thing that is inspiring you to move forward that, that dream is what can, keep that alive.

Mark Young: And it's that vision he had that other people saw He was an honorable guy. Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: when he almost loses the El Paso Hilton at the Depression, If you remember, he merged Hilton with the Moody interests, and it was a disaster, and they basically, Could have had the El Paso Hilton, but there was more debt associated with it than they want to deal with. I forget it.

Well, the guy who actually owned the building, had worked with Conrad in the past Honorable and said, if you Hey, if you can just me to get 30, 000, I'll let you have the contract back Josh Ramsey: Wow. Yeah. Mark Young: and then Conrad goes to several people he knows them. They know him.

They know he's an honorable guy. They lend them the money. But he also says something. He says it's to this one guy, Bob Price, who owned the local dairy creamery business in El Paso.

If you lend me this money . I promise you, I'll always buy my dairy products from you. As long as I have this hotel here in El Paso, He lived up to that. Guy owned a laundry, the where the sheets and towels went for laundry.

Thing there. Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: But that he was able to get the money from these people to begin with was because he had shown the honorable side of him because everyone realized in the depression that, I mean, everyone suffered and I mean, it wasn't through necessarily Conrad's fault that he was in this shape, the Josh Ramsey: Right. Yeah.

Mark Young: And, but they knew that this was a guy who was honorable and a go getter. Josh Ramsey: Yep. Yep. Mark Young: and.

And carry this even farther, he didn't forget these people because when he went to buy the Stevens Hotel in Chicago in 1945, now the Chicago Hilton, He went back to them and said, I'm about to buy, a bunch of shares of stock in this hotel we're going to, Make it part of the Hilton chain. Do you want to buy, join me in this endeavor and buying these? And he invited them, I'm sure at a lower rate, they bought shares and help Josh Ramsey: Yeah that's great. So from your studies of this and looking at the archives, I don't know exactly, where does, Conrad Hilton fall in the timeline and what was happening elsewhere.

So ? Where did Marriott come into the picture or any other brands that we know today? Mark Young: , I'll say the first Most people haven't heard of is the Statler brand. And they, I think it's fair to say they were the hotel.

chain company for the first half of the 20th century. Josh Ramsey: Okay. Mark Young: And Ellsworth Statler, who had, never went to college, one of these stories, he just had a genius about hotel operation The thing that I find most fascinating of him is I'll say 90 percent of the hotel rooms that you check in today, you open the door and to your left or your right, it's going to be the bathroom. then you have the room.

Basically he came up with that concept of design and in the early 20th century, and he saw the bathroom as being a buffer from the noise in the hallway. Then if you. Put that bathroom backed up to the bathroom in the next room. You're saving on piping costs.

Josh Ramsey: . Wow. Mark Young: And even Conrad talks about, what a genius he was. And then , after World War II, , more Americans are traveling by automobile.

You have the rise of what they would call the motor in or the motor lodge. Reason, the word motel was somehow not as respectable as hotel. You have the development of holiday and Kimmins Wilson. And I don't want to, I shouldn't forget Howard Johnson, who started in restaurants.

And then in built the first Howard Johnson in Savannah, Georgia. you have the development of these. Marriott comes in, well, let me back up. Marriott owned the Well, in Texas, we call them Kip's Big Boy, but in other parts of the country, they're called Shoney's but they bought that kind of franchise for that, for the Washington DC area.

And my understanding is that, in the fifties, Bill Marriott , went to his dad and said, we should get into the hotel business. They opened up the first Marriott. I want to say in 57, 58. In suburban Washington, D.

C. And the rest is history and, and continue to grow. But then you've got Cecil day came up with days in, he saw a niche , for what days in would, cater to a certain, segmentation of the industry Back then they didn't have the word segmentation, even though that's what they were doing , and oh Travelodge, another one that was catered to the, the driving public, getting off subject here for a minute, but one of the fascinating things I like to do. Is when I'm, I know I'm going to be traveling and I usually drive because I like to take pictures of old hotels and motels to add to the image collection.

Is once I'm getting to a town, get off the interstate and get on the old U S highway that goes through the town. Can see all the old motels, That developed. I mean, they most likely have changed name and have changed ownership several times since they were originally built. But there are certain towns I'll go in and you can just see all the national brands from the fifties and the sixties on Highway going into town.

Is a time capsule of the industry, at that point Josh Ramsey: Yeah. So that's interesting to hear what you're saying about the, like Howard Johnson and the Marriott's being in the space of, franchises of restaurants, right? And then moving into hospitality, , did they then bring in the idea of franchising the hotel brand? I would assume for a while self owned your name is on it.

You're putting the money down and, getting the financing at some point you say, oh, okay, now I've got a model that I can get other people to put their money down and own the individual hotels. And we'd be the brand behind that. Do you have any insight into that? Of like when that happened or kind of what, what brought that about?

Mark Young: Give credit to Howard Johnson, , and it was just at this point, restaurants for him. And they were all along the East Coast and they put some on the then new Pennsylvania Turnpike in the 30s. but he was very strict on, you must , follow these guidelines. He wanted , that seamless experience of going to a different Howard Johnson's restaurant and you'll have that same good quality Bring that after World War II into the hotels.

He very much wanted that also for what they called motor lodges The problem is, I think, there were certain I'll say motel companies out there who are basically doing it for the quick profit. Josh Ramsey: Right. Mark Young: Here's what our target audience is, and they get a bunch of franchisers out there to join up with them without strong franchise. Things.

It's gonna, Josh Ramsey: Yeah, at least a degradation of the brand. Sure. Mark Young: And that and once you get a bad reputation, it's really hard to come back from that. Josh Ramsey: Yeah.

Mark Young: And was one of the issues. But I give Howard Johnson the credit for that. Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: he really did have a good quality control.

Josh Ramsey: It's funny if I'm talking to somebody that doesn't, work in the hotel industry they're oftentimes surprised that someone else owns the, the Hampton Inn that they stayed in and to hear, , someone owns that property and then someone else manages it, right? And the brand is the one that is, managing the quality control and, helping drive a lot of business into this local hotel. But it's a kind of a foreign concept to some folks to think, Oh, this isn't actually one company doing everything.

And I've found that really interesting I would love to know, , do you have any insight into when. I would assume you go from. Large owners to then franchises with multiple owners. That management companies probably didn't come in until some later point in time, right?

Somebody realizing, I want to take the risk and put the money down, but I don't want to operate this property. The day to day and then somebody decided, let's aggregate that and create these management companies. Do you have any insight there? Mark Young: A little bit, but let me back up and Josh Ramsey: Okay.

Mark Young: I plead guilty until I took this job. Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: I thought Hilton owned every That type of thing. And it took me a while to kind of wrap my head it.

What I can speak mostly to is Hilton and I'm, I Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: something wrong in here. So. me, but I think as the tax laws have evolved through the years, it became profitable and beneficial for the hotel companies to not own the property, but, as with Hilton that has a good reputation, a good brand they don't really need to own those properties.

And what I remember when I, interviewed Barron Hilton. And he was very nice man, very generous with his time. I found him very fascinating. I'm not a math person at all.

I'm a historian. I asked him a couple of questions about some real estate transactions. It just didn't seem to make sense to me. And within five minutes he explained it very clearly.

And basically, to his thinking, Wall Street did not reward Hilton stock value for the property that it owned, even though it was valuable property in Josh Ramsey: Right. Mark Young: And stuff, Not going to reward us for that, then why are we holding onto it? Josh Ramsey: right. Mark Young: So, he began to sell the properties.

Now. Once again like his father is very shrewd on this. When he sold the Beverly Hilton , a marquee property for Hilton. He made sure that the buyer, if they ever decide to sell it, Hilton hotels have that.

First refusal Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: And I, if I remember correctly, he bought and sold the Beverly Hilton a couple of times and usually he was selling the Beverly Hilton at the high market. And buying it at the low market. Josh Ramsey: I think that makes a lot of sense.

It complicates the business model I would assume When it comes to earnings reports and all of that, . And like you're saying your intrinsic value might not meet what, your market cap ends up being because of all of these assets that you have. And that's also very hard to keep track of, and that fluctuates based on what else is going on. So , to your point, if you're then saying, here's our business model is that we grow hotels, we help them perform well, and here's how we generate our revenue owning the real estate itself doesn't have to be part of that equation.

Mark Young: exactly. And, and that, if the tax laws change, if, they do things differently, the model will have to change with it, that it's gotten to the point where it's, you've got all the real estate investment trusts out there. Josh Ramsey: Right. Mark Young: and they're, they want to own the hotels and properties I remember when Chris Nassetta sold the Waldorf Astoria and a lot of people were like, Oh my gosh.

And to me, it was like, it was a brilliant stroke. He sold it at a high market And just like Baron, just like Conrad, Chris made sure , if you decide to sell it , We get first crack at buying it Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: That's as close to owning the property as you can get without owning it, Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Yeah.

So you mentioned REITs I know the number I've heard is like over 75 percent of hotels are owned by, individual families still. But there are a lot of larger institutional investors that own a lot of properties. And then, do you have any insight into the management company thing? Because a REIT is not going to want to manage a hotel.

Those may be required each other. Mark Young: The management companies are kind of a nebulous thing They're all a little bit different and some they come and go and, I have to tell a story on this that you remember hearing of fell core. They Got sold off they sold to another company. I forget who.

And, one of the executives retired and he had been to the archive before he had taken a tour of it. and he was retiring and he contacted me a very nice gentleman and said, Mark, I've got bunch of hotel stuff. A lot of it's Hilton, but not everything. Do you want it for the archive?

Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: I ended up adding 45 bankers boxes full of hotel material Josh Ramsey: Wow. Mark Young: several brands. I mean, it was a gold mine But that particular, estate investment trust, what have you, had sold to another one.

And, It's kind of a way we acquired material. Josh Ramsey: When I think about hospitality, I think about being taken care of that's what hospitality means to me, and I'm curious for you, , what's the first memory that comes to mind personally for you, experiencing hospitality? Mark Young: My very first well, I'll go back to when I was a little boy I grew up in Dallas we would always. travel by station wagon go back and visit relatives on the East Coast.

We wouldn't, drive until we got to a town with a hotel and stop there. And I always remember going in with my parents to, to check in It was always a fun and exciting thing for me as a kid, looking back, my parents were probably exhausted from the drive and having a bunch of kids in the car. but it was always a friendly face and a welcoming people. And it seems like we stayed at a Ramada Inn or a Howard Johnson Holiday Inn.

And, with a swimming pool, Josh Ramsey: hmm. Mark Young: fast forward to when I take this job here at the college and, it's, it's drilled into the kids. With the students, and it's just amazing. They go above and beyond to make sure that the guests have a nice time.

Are happy and all that kind of stuff. Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: And in this day and age we live in, , you really can't have enough hospitality. Josh Ramsey: Yeah, I agree.

, I ended in hospitality, like in revenue management, but , as I learned about what's the underlying, principle motivation for hotels. It got me like I haven't been able to leave. Because I just love this idea of, taking care of people. I'm curious, if we went back on this timeline of hotels, I would assume, the first examples I can think of are like in scriptural texts, right?

Thousands of years old stories about there being an in. Josh Ramsey: And the in being there to take care of weary travelers, right? You're traveling not probably not for fun, like you're leaving something that's hard. You're trying to get somewhere else and you're exhausted.

And that having an in. Was something of how can I take care of these people and their horses and their family, give them a place that's safe while they're then, going back on, on the road. I, I don't know of anything further than that in history, that would be an example, but I'd be curious, if you have thoughts around that. Mark Young: I know a British or Scottish hospitality professor who's written on that Thing, and I don't know if it's before the birth of Christ or Josh Ramsey: Sure.

Mark Young: it's it, addresses exactly what you were just mentioning and And you see it carried forward The centuries Josh Ramsey: Right. Right. Mark Young: Would have I will also add is that hospitality is often, I'll say, the forgotten industry because we all know about, I'm in Houston, the oil industry, banking, The Hollywood industry and stuff like this, but people forget about hospitality and The hotel and restaurant industry. Very large, but for some reason, , they think of banks and other insurance companies first.

They don't think about the hotel companies or the restaurant Josh Ramsey: Right. Mark Young: I don't know why that is really, I just, I find it fascinating. As a historian, I can go in the main library here at the university and see all kinds of corporate histories about, any other industry, but on the hotel industry, it's about yay big. Josh Ramsey: Interesting.

Even just looking at the root word of hospitality and hospital, . It is like caring, taking care of. And so one is , taking care of someone that needs medical attention possibly, but I love the idea of , in this world that we live in, everyone is a weary traveler, they're inundated by so much work and so many distractions and so many things going on to have someone look them in the eye and smile and take care of them and let them know that they're safe and that they'll be taken care of and that we're glad they're here.

All of those things can mean so much to someone. And that's something I think that resonates with me. And then I think about what you're saying about what Conrad Hilton did, right? He's thinking, people are staying at inns and smaller places, but the world is changing and there are ways for me to maybe better meet those needs than what exist right now.

And pushing the innovation of that is based on like how the world is changing, right? Like you're saying, like interstates are being built behavior is changing. Air conditioners come around the, the TV becomes the thing, all of these things continue to push and evolve. What is being built and how we take care of people.

And I think about that now. There's always still new opportunity for innovation of meeting. , today's we weary traveler, right? Mark Young: Cause who knows what's going to be invented That will have a nice role in hospitality.

I mean, two things from a historical perspective, Josh Ramsey: Yeah. when I was Interviewing Barron Hilton Mark Young: About television. being in Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: The hotel rooms When you think of Hilton, Conrad in the early fifties was the head of the company and the leadership team was, of a certain age, they were either born in, the 19th century or the early 20th century.

And Barron who's , a generation younger is saying, we really need to be installing television in our guest rooms. And, he had pushback on it, but he saw the future. Forward a couple years. And we've got most copies of the old Hilton advertisements.

And there's, in the mid fifties, they had an advertisement that said Hilton, leads the way and then fill in whatever Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: And this was in air conditioning. Josh Ramsey: Yep. Mark Young: I know this because I interviewed a retired Hilton executive had to make this decision.

Back in the day, back in the 50s the downtown New York and Chicago properties for Hilton were not air conditioned, And the decision was like, should Hilton spend money to air These big massive hotels that had been built without air conditioning and just thinking the cost of installing an air conditioning system in a hotel that wasn't designed for it, Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: and it was the Chicago the New York hotels, and I think the D. C. Hotels.

We're all going to be air conditioned and it was going to be like five million dollars back in the 50s And the board was like really concerned would we make our money on this and will we lose? We're just wasting five million dollars and the gentleman I interviewed Told me he had, he worked for either the Palmer House or the Chicago Hilton, I forget which one he worked at. And what he had done in, like everyone did, is he worked from roughly October to May at the Chicago Hilton or Palmer House, Then left Chicago and worked somewhere, for the summer Josh Ramsey: Right.

Mark Young: They air conditioned Hilton said, you've gotta either commit to us year round. Or, go somewhere else. And, this was a change for him. I mean, he had been doing this for several years but he committed to Hilton.

Smart move on his part. He rose in the company and said, we can't imagine nowadays hotels being built without air conditioning, but Is it made the convention business in Chicago and New York thrive in the summer months now that they had air conditioning. And it, it created the 12 month convention business in these cities Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: existed previously.

And the board at Hilton did not see this aspect coming. Josh Ramsey: Right. Mark Young: But this was one of the neat side benefits of Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: I mean, it's just, to me, an interesting, you can look at the dollars and the numbers.

Is this the right thing to do? But there's always the potential of some side effect that Josh Ramsey: Right. Yeah. Mark Young: Yeah.

Josh Ramsey: That's, yeah, absolutely. Yeah I think about, how quickly the world's changing and this is one of those businesses that yes, there are things happening, behind the computer but there's so much that's happening face to face that, yes, technology is going to continue to evolve and adapt, but I think it's going to become more and more important that what's happening on the face to face interaction is, authentic and, a quality level of service that I'm curious how, with the current trends, , how things will evolve, like what's next, do you have any guesses?

Mark Young: Oh, don't ask a historian Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Right, right. Mark Young: I mean, Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: I can't think of particular classes, but I'll hear that they're now teaching a class on something and I'm like, huh?

And then they explain it to me. It's like, oh, I had no idea that was a, an issue Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Sure. Mark Young: they're going , in this day and age we live in, there's just a constant bombardment of New ideas and stuff like that.

Some of them good, some of them bad, Josh Ramsey: Sure. Mark Young: and I'm just fascinated. I'm as a person who's, as you well know, most savvy it person the bombardment of new technological things that, do the companies stay up to date? Is this just a passing Bad or is this something that's going to be.

An industry must have, Josh Ramsey: Right. Mark Young: and how do you decide, Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about today that we didn't talk about? Yeah.

Mark Young: is just, this is kind of a nice refreshing about the industry. I've, was, I'm not a hotelier. I wasn't trained in it, but I find it fascinating. And and in charge of this archive literally and truthfully do say, I learned something new or discover something new every day.

Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Mark Young: no, no two days are the same because there's always something different going on, Josh Ramsey: Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you've dedicated your time and your craft to that because I think it's so important for all of us. So I'm looking forward to coming and visiting the archive and spending some time with you sometime soon.

Mark Young: come on Josh Ramsey: Okay. Mark Young: we're open unless there's a Josh Ramsey: Yeah. All right. Well, thanks so much, Mark.

Yeah. I look forward to talking to you again soon. All right.