Ruchika T. Malhotra, Author, Inclusion on Purpose & Uncompete & CEO of Candour

Speaker A: M We are so excited to announce that the second edition of Tamina Watson's book, the Startup Key to Job Growth and Economic Prosperity in America is now out for order. You can find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, or wherever you get your books. You can do so by searching the Startup Visa book or by finding Tamina Watson's author page on Amazon or online that is spelt T a H M M I N a W a T S o N. Thank you so much for your support and for tuning in to this episode. Welcome to Tamina Talks Immigration. I'm Tamina Watson, immigration attorney at Watson Immigration Law and the author of the book series the Startup Visa. As we charge into 2025, we're facing dynamic obstacles and groundbreaking shifts in immigration law and and I'm here to break it all down for you. From must know practical tips and smart strategies to the latest legal challenges that affect us as individuals, businesses and communities. Join me as I connect with inspiring immigrants, trailblazing entrepreneurs, passionate activists, and influential policymakers to uncover the challenges and celebrate the triumphs shaping our world. Whether you're an immigrant, an aspiring entrepreneur, or simply curious about how laws weave into the fabric of our society, you're in the perfect spot for energetic and engaging discussions. I know many of you are on the go juggling your day while tuning in, and I truly appreciate you letting me share these moments with you. Well, welcome everyone. Thank you so much for joining another episode of Tamina Talks Immigration. Today's guest is one of, um, these amazing women in my life and I look up to them and I just really admire everything this person does and you're going to hear right from her about why I love her and you'll probably love her at the end of the conversation. Ruchika Malhotra is an award winning inclusion strategist, speaker and the CEO and founder of Candor, where she helps organizations build diverse teams and inclusive cultures. A former international business journalist, she has reported from four countries and writes regularly for Harvard Business Review. She is the author of Inclusion on Purpose, MIT Press's top selling book of 2022 and her upcoming book, Rejecting Competition to Unlock Success, will be published by Viking in November 2025. Welcome Ruchika Tamina.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker A: I am so excited to speak with you on air. Uh, several years ago you were on the podcast and you know, I had a, um, I was in a studio at the time for a radio station and I was just so honored that you were there and had that experience with me because that station no longer exists. But those memories I cherish so much. So thank you for doing that all those years ago and thank you for being here all over again.

Speaker B: What a joy. And on it's the. Truly, the honor is mine because the work that you're doing is so important. I have logged into your uh, especially a LinkedIn page regularly just to see, see like what's Tamina saying about what's happening? I've sent your contact to many different people and said please, you know, check out Tamina's work and leadership. And now getting to know this beautiful side of you since we last talked, whether it's your beautiful bird photography, whether it's these coloring books, of course I've always been so grateful for your foresight to um, you know, advocate for the startup visa, which again, as someone who has gone through quite a big immigrant journey in this country, um, just is that, that foresight and that thought and, and being so good at advocating for it is just. Anyway, I can go on.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you, thank you. So grateful. Stay grateful. Well, a lot of people tuning in today may not have heard our um, other episodes. So listeners, please go and find that episode. But just a little like brief summary. Can you tell us about your immigrant journey? You have talked about it extensively on different types of platforms and um, but our listeners may not know it. Give us a summary. I really want to dive into uncompete because that really calls me in different ways. But I think your background will actually uh, give the background that people need to know of how you came to this.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's very relevant to this conversation because I actually moved to the United States as an adult. So I came in on um, you know, for a master's, so I came in on a student visa. I, at the end of my master's I actually did an internship at a magazine, a well known one and, and they actually said, you know, if you want to stay on, we'd love to like Sponsor your, your H1B will, you know, we'll figure something out for you. I think. I don't know actually now when I think back, I didn't even ask for the details because I had another job waiting for me back. Um, and I'm from Singapore, so I had another job for me back in Asia, but. So I never asked them the details. But now that I think about it, I think an H1B might have been a hard sell even back in 2010. Uh, but I know journalists and people who do the work I do. There are a couple of other options. So I was on a student visa. I gave that, like, I finished it and I moved back. I even didn't even like, activate, um, you know, the opt to stay on. And then I went back and, um, basically I was, I was in Singapore. I was, you know, I was really happy there. I was like, this is where I want to be for the year, for at least the foreseeable future. Uh, prior to that, I'd even lived in London. And, um, you know, I met, I met someone who was based in the US and was like, this is it. Like, I want to be here long term. I love being here. I love my career here. He was on an H1B visa. Um, so I'd say one of the most formative experiences of my immigration journey here in the United States. Now that I've, like, formally been, you know, an immigrant to this country for 13 years, that's different from my student visa. Um, I have to say, you know, one of the most formative experiences was being on the H4, um, you know, visa, which is like the dependent visa where you can't work. Um, you know, and I had this master's degree from a Ivy League university. I had all this work experience. And, um, I was, I was stuck at home and I was stuck in, um, you know, I was like, living. I was, we were living in the suburbs in Atlanta. My husband traveled a lot because he was a consultant. And it was really the most tough 18 months, I would say, of my life. You know, I really struggled. Um, I had major emotional, mental, you know, physical, like just manifestations of how much that pain was to be young and wanting to work and really vibrant and really trying to, like, get your foot in the door and basically just be, you know, denied because of the visa situation. Anyway, in all these years since, you know, I have a green card, I'm a Singaporean, so. Which doesn't allow a dual citizenship. So that's been hard. And especially in these times where this question of, you know, what is the role of, um, green card holders to this country who pay taxes and all of that, but are they still protected? Um, and my, my husband naturalized, and then I have a 9 year old son who was born in America and is an American. So that's a long winded way of saying, I have seen the sort of immigration, uh, cycle and its flaws and its challenges from very many different angles. And, um, so I remain so grateful for the work that you do.

Speaker A: Well, I'm so, um, grateful you shared your story because it's really the story of almost all employment based immigrants and the time that you're speaking about, uh, H4 visa holders were not allowed to work. Ah, certain H4 visa holders are now allowed to work. But it came as a result of a lot of advocacy. You might remember that. Um, and now who knows, it could be on the chopping block again because it was regulatory. So um, but that, that informs you in all the things you do and I want to come to uncompete. But your first book that really put you on the map was Inclusion on Purpose. Can you give a summary of that before we dive? Because there's a, there's a flow to your work. And how did that come along? How did you come to write a book? I mean you were a journalist. Writing of course is your day job and your night job and you probably, you know, sleep and write. So writing is everything. Um, I know I'm constantly out writing articles wherever I go and like oh, I forgot that article. I should have just look at a voice note. Um, how did inclusion on purpose come along? What was the birth, you know, way canal for that?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's such a great question. And actually for one second I want to actually cover the H4 visa change because by then I had got my um, you know I, I had, I, I had my green card and I had this sort of the right to work here. And I remember um, writing an article, I think it was for Forbes. It was, you know that look, certain H4 visa workers can, can now begin to work, um, and have the authorization to work. And it's so great. It'll really change the game for so many um, especially women. We know that there's a very large disproportionate number of women on the H4 dependent visa. And it was the first time that, I think, I remember it might be the first time that I had written an article for something on, for an online publication. And the level of trolling and the level of like vitriol I received really remains in my mind to this day because it was very interesting that what I was starting to hear, and I know this is we'll come back to these m in themes and uncompete.

Speaker A: But

Speaker B: I heard a lot about, I heard of, I, I saw a lot of uh, backlash and then you know, even on in the media and other like TV shows that like, oh, like you know they're going to take away American jobs and it's going to be really bad. And you know, how could our country, how could our administration do this and Blah, blah, blah. And it was very interesting because for me I was like, it's a no brainer. I mean you're already the H1B holders already here and is authorized to work here. And largely many have high, you know, potential spouses who would very much contribute to the workforce. So it just seemed to me very strange that you know, in other countries that I have looked at have, have allowed uh, you know, the spouse to work if the, if there's, the main holder of the visa is allowed to work. So anyway, that, that moment sticks out in my mind and I think there is a through line from that to uncompete. But um, coming back to your question on inclusion on purpose, I was very, I've been very interested in gender equality in the workplace from the start of my career. I would say again, a lot of the myths I think I received about all that matters is as a woman is no matter how what, no matter where you come from, what matters is like you get a good degree, you work hard and that's all that matters. Your work experience, everything else is secondary and that, that you're, that everything you do to progress in your career will kind of, then it doesn't matter. Your race, your gender, like any of these identities don't matter. And of course the reality is they do. And there's very strong data. In fact right now I've been looking at the jobs report. We're seeing, you know, 3,389,000 um, you know, women having left the workforce. I mean we are really just in this year alone, in nine months. So I think we're at this very, and I think that's black women' specifically. And you know we're seeing a huge number of women just be pushed out of the workforce. Whereas in fact men have been making gains in the US workforce. So all of this to say that I think I started seeing these patterns of like there are systemic barriers that are holding women back and women especially from various marginalized identities, racial, um, disabilities, neurodivergence, you know, all of that. And so inclusion on purpose was really to try and figure out a strategy for organizations who want to support women, who want to recruit, attract, you know, and advance women and promote them to figure out how to do it well and use research backed strategies to do that.

Speaker A: That's amazing. And of course um, during the previous administration, you know, there was a lot of embracing of that mindset and sudd. We're in a new era where that kind of strategy is at least visibly being pushed aside. Um, and We. We could go into that a lot. It's almost like. I know, Ruchika, you'll have to come back very soon for a part two on this, but you. There was a time when people. Organizations were looking at diversity, and immigration was obviously a part of that. Um, what did you see from an immigration perspective? You know, you're looking at inclusion on purpose with women and maybe people of color. Did immigration play a part in that? Did that come up?

Speaker B: Yeah, it really did. I mean, the immigrant stories of so many women has a big part to play in our experience in the workplace. And I think it's also. I think some of the very intersections. And there's so many nuances to this, right? So there's race and then there's gender and some of the expectations and stereotypes of how women, and especially women who are born outside this country or have a different accent or look different, should behave. There were some of the very clear, like, immigration challenges and, And. And really the issues that have led us to where we are. Um, you know, I saw. I spoke to, even for the book, like women whom had, um, who knew that they were being paid so much less. You know, the gender pay gap was so, so wide. And in their organization especially, that they were facing it, but they felt like. And they knew that they couldn't face up because of ramifications of their work visa. I had talked to for the book and. This story because this book, what I loved about how I kind of.

Speaker A: Hey, Ruchika, can you stop for just a second?

Speaker B: Which I'm so glad we started.

Speaker A: Can you hear me? Ruchika, can you hear me? Yeah, you know, I think my Internet's a bit choppy. I'm gonna go get my T. Mobile box, so I can. I can hear.

Speaker B: I can hear you. I can.

Speaker A: Cutting out, so I don't know if it's recording properly. Okay, so give me like two minutes. Okay, I'll try.

Speaker B: I'll try and be more concise.

Speaker A: No, no, no. My sister's amazing. And so she. She'll just make sure that it's edited properly. She does my editing. So coming back. Coming back to the book, um, inclusion and purpose was all about, you know, how do you have, um, a dynamic workforce, essentially.

Speaker B: That's right. That's right.

Speaker A: What was the through line? Because we could talk a lot about all of that, but I want to know how you came to uncompete, because it's not something people talk about a lot. And I think, you know, you can tell me if anybody's written about it. But how did you get from inclusion on purpose to uncompete?

Speaker B: Um, you know, this is so interesting because I write about this in the book, which I cannot wait to share with you. In fact, you and I are going to be meeting in person again after a long time and hopefully I'll actually have. I have not seen any physical dumped copies of the book, but hopefully when I see you, I'll have one for you. Um, what. So the through line between inclusion on purpose and uncompete and really all my work kind of is grounded in that experience I had, you know, on this visa where I couldn't work and sort of early experiences in my life. But the through line, certainly from a book about gender equity, intersectional gender equity in the workplace and creating dynamic workforces, as you said, and uncompete is time and time again I would hear from people who, you know, had me come in, advise and talk and speak and, you know, write, like, talk about the book, talk about, like, the work I'd done. Um, you know, people say, I really get what you're saying. In theory. Like, I love the idea of, like, yes, we should include more women. Yes, we should have more, you know, people of color leaders. Yes. Like, we should have people who are very global and. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I'm kind of nervous. Like, if I'm being honest, I'm a little nervous about, um, you know, what's going to happen to someone like me. Like, I'm a white guy who grew up in this, in this country. And does that mean that I'm not going to have opportunities for myself or for, you know, my kids? Uh, right. Like, does the advancement of one group that we're working on, this women's leadership initiative mean that, like, I, and like, my son wouldn't get and wouldn't be able to be hired at this company or progress? And time and again I heard that zero sum thinking, that scarcity thinking of how, you know, things are basically divided into like a pie, right? One person gets it, another person does a slice of pizza. Like, it's, you know, it was very much like everything is cut up and the more I give to you, the less I have. And I heard it time and time again and I started realizing that that competitive hierarchy, zero sum thinking is prevalent in every stage of our society from the way that we raise our children to be competitive in schools, to how often, especially women. And there's research to back this up. Um, don't always support each other because we're shown a System where there's only room for one chief executive officer, only one for room for one woman in, you know, the C suite. So better get my sharp elbows out rather than build connections with other women to, um, you know, once you're in the company, then you're very much like, oh, like, I don't want to be. You know, I want to make sure that my position is protected, so I better have my rivalry, you know, kind of make sure who I strategically align with and kick out everyone else or don't be connected with them. And I just saw it again and again and again related to DEI initiatives as well. And so it became very clear to me that we need to rewrite this idea that competition at all costs, all the time is good for you. Um, and I have, like, I have more research, but I, you know, I want to pause and give you a second.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I'm. I'm so fascinated. Do you need a business plan for your immigration visa startup or to raise capital from EB5 investors? Business plans are complex and time consuming, but not if you turn to the experts. Pinnacle Plan Writing specializes in crafting clear and credible business plans that can be the bridge between your entrepreneurial dreams and US Agencies. With decades of combined experience. Experience and hundreds of successful plans submitted, uh, Pinnacle can help get your visa on the path to success. If you're ready to take the next step, visit www.pinnacleplanwriting.com and get started today. Because as an author, I know when an idea comes, I know that I'm going to be writing about it. But when did you know it was going to become a book? Because you could be researching, you're answering questions. There's a, uh, there's a process to even getting to the point where, oh, I think this is the next book. And then I'm so curious because as an author, I think of that, but the substantive part of it is just so incredibly important. But that it's almost like the birth canal part is where I'm really, really. I don't know why I keep using this terminology. Maybe because school.

Speaker B: I mean, it really feels like it, honestly. And now that I'm, uh, you know, and I'm four weeks away from birthing this book into the world, so trust me, like, there's a lot of, like, where in the canal are we right now? Sorry to get graphic.

Speaker A: My gosh. But the idea, you know, you're like, oh, gosh, maybe I need to tell them. How do I tell them? When does that idea and research turn into a book? And Then you do more research to get to the book.

Speaker B: M. Yeah, I would say that because I am a person who really like who it. Which is. Which is really interesting and different from a lot of people who I'm close to. I have always been a processor out loud. So if I'm thinking of an idea, I'll test it on social media. I mean, and it's not even like, testing to see what's going to happen. It's more like I'll be like, I'm noticing this thing. Are there are other people noticing this thing, right? Like, to the say, to the point of, like, I think the sky is blue.

Speaker A: Are.

Speaker B: Are you seeing a BL guy too? Like, I have that kind of. I've always had that kind of tendency and especially, um, around, like, ideas I've written about. And I felt this with gender, right? Like, again with the work I've done. And actually, Inclusion on Purpose is my. Is my second book. So I had a, you know, a small, much smaller book before that called Gender, called the Diversity Advantage, Fixing Gender Inequality in the Workplace. And even in that case, how it came about is I was like, re. I was really curious, researching about gender in the workplace, looking at all the data, and all I would find was these narratives that were in society that were like, about how women weren't working hard enough or they just wanted to quit the workforce when they became mothers or whatever it is. And I was like, that's not aligning with my experience, and that's not aligning with the experience of people I'm talking to. And that's kind of the genesis of the first book. With the second book, so much of it was like, I was talking to women and many said, like, you know, yes, my identity as a woman has been very hard, but it's actually the fact that I have all these other intersectional identities, specifically racial, as a woman of color, that's that I'm really struggling with. And at the same time, talking to companies saying, like, I really want to do this. Well, I just don't know how. How do you have advice? Right? So putting that together with uncompete, similar, like, I would start once and. And competition is one of those things that. It's one of those myths that we, I mean, think about as immigrants, the myths that we have been taught about competition. You got to beat out everyone else, got to be better than the. Than the person next to you. You know, scarcity mindset. Got to. Got to save every single penny. And, you know, and all of these very many of these are created by a system that does pit us against each other. So even with competition, I started seeing it everywhere. Like, the idea came in my mind thinking about it, and then I would notice it everywhere, right? Like, I would go to my. I would go to my son's school and I talk to some parents, and they'd be like, okay, I'm off to take Johnny to karate and then to maths and then to science and then to dance and then to art and then to. And I was like, when does Johnny sleep? And the idea is like, Johnny doesn't need to sleep because in 12. I mean, I'm thinking, like, when my kid was 6. In 12 years from now, when we're applying for college, he'll have, like, 20 different activities that he can put on his application. Um, so I started seeing it everywhere, and then it just kind of snowballed from there. Started asking the questions and looking at research. Does, um, competition actually make you more innovative? The answer is no. Ah. Does competition help companies become, you know, become better? No. Does competition make you better as a human being? To some extent. But definitely, you know, when you get into, like, how tough? Malicious envy, which is a type of, like, comparison and envy that just takes over your life can be really destructive. That doesn't make you better. It just makes you stressed and more burnt out. So then I started finding the data points that supported this idea that, like, competition everywhere at all costs isn't necessarily the way to. To move forward in our world.

Speaker A: I love the title Uncompete. Um, yeah. How did you come up with that?

Speaker B: I don't know.

Speaker A: It's a great title.

Speaker B: First time I've been asked this, actually. Okay, let me think. I think the idea came from this thought that, like, I. I think I realized competition is a choice, and so to not compete is also a choice. Right. Like, what I started realizing is we think competition is the default. And I write about this in the book. We think, like, oh, if I don't compete, I'll be left behind, or, like, my family will be left behind or whatever it is I started realizing and finding examples, which I write about in the book, of people who were like, no, I'm opting out of that mindset. Like, whether I'm building a business, I'm not going to do. Like, I'm not either going to hoard all opportunities for myself or. Or if I can't do something, I'm not going to be the person who says, oh, I can't do it, but I'm not going to refer any business out to anyone else who's my competitor. I started finding data points of all of these people or like stories of these really interesting people who were choosing a different way. Um, and so, you know, I realized, like, it's a choice. So if you compete, what if you didn't compete, what if you uncompeted? And that sort of became the genesis of it. But to be honest, I can't point to like one aha moment. But the good thing is people instantaneously get it. Um, I've been hearing from a lot of people that they're using the term even without the book coming out. So m. Now I'm like, I hope the book lives up to whatever they, whatever the promise that they think it's about.

Speaker A: You know, if there was a job that the book had to do is probably already. So it's all going to be a bonus from here. Um, I have a lot of immigration questions to get to, but I have to keep coming back to this book and concept and how you came to it because I'm just so curious from a personal perspective where, you know, competition has been part of your life, my life, you know, it's the way it has been in society. Um, but what do you do when you are uncompeting but somebody else is competing?

Speaker B: Such a good question. Couple of things. Okay. I think one of the things is I really want us to slow down the knee jerk reaction to compete. I want us to just stop for a moment. In a moment where you're kind of with someone who is, you know, showing competitive behaviors. You know, there's rivalry or maybe you're at work and you've been shown there's only one promotion. So gotta, gotta really like beat out the competition. What I really hope with this book more people do is they first like literally slow down the instinct. So I think we have to slow down the instinct to like immediately like autopilot. We're going to compete. Right? Slow down and just ask yourself like, what, what is, like what am I really competing for here? And what is the cost benefit analysis here, which I think many of us don't do. Um, I have talked to so many people who are like co founders of businesses or uh, former co founders of businesses or former co workers or even like a boss and a subordinate who kind of were pitted against each other as rivals. And many of them just competed because that's what was like the autopilot definition of what they had to do. And they lost the relationship and they really regretted losing the Relationship. You know, I've heard of couples and spouses and partners in life competing, uh, with each other and losing that relationship without stopping to think, like, what have I really lost? So I think there's, I think there's some level of, like, slow down the automated process and just ask yourself, like, what it. What's. What's. What am I winning?

Speaker A: I lost you. Can you hear me? I don't know what happened here.

Speaker B: Okay, give me one second.

Speaker A: Um, can you hear me? I can hear you. Yes. It was so weird. It start. It stopped. I, I mean, I could, I could. It sort of got gobbled. But you did. You. I, I heard until, like you said, um, to slow down.

Speaker B: Yeah, you really have to slow down and you really have to kind of ask yourself, what are you losing and what are you gaining in competing? And I think there are people, I mean, I've talked to people who, you know, went all in on a competition for a promotion only, and with. When they didn't slow down, they realized like a. I don't really want the competition. I'm not, uh, I'm not the promotion. I'm not in a, like mental and emotional and like set up at home space to get this promotion. But I'm doing it just because it's expected of me. So there's that too. So really asking that. And then if you decide no, actually, like, I do want this thing that's kind of been put in front of me and I has been told, I've been told it's only one spot, really, uh, pushing back against this default, that there is only one spot. I've heard, I've heard from people who have gone back to their managers and said, like, is there a way to like, create a co. Created role, for example, or a role where me and this person could actually trade off in some way or if I don't get this promotion now and they get it, is there a way that I could kind of see career progression in a different way or see career progression in a way that is meaningful to me? So I think that a big part of uncompete is asking yourself that and not operating with this mindset that like, there's only one got to do it on autopilot and it's slowing down those responses.

Speaker A: That's m. Really, really, uh, incredibly, incredibly helpful advice because I think it's counterintuitive to slow down. People don't really want to slow down. It's like, I just want to go, go, go get it and just keep going. Um, can you hear me? I have noise going on outside now. I don't know what's going on.

Speaker B: I can hear you perfectly. And your studio is making it so, like, you've got. Perfect.

Speaker A: Okay, good. Is somebody just. I don't know what they're doing outside anyway. So my next question for you is that. How do you. It sounds like you talk about immigration in your book. Let's, uh. Do you talk about immigration or immigrant. Anything about.

Speaker B: Yes, I 100% talk about the scarcity mindset that I saw as, uh, an immigrant. And unfortunately, a lot of the scarcity mindsets I see that immigrants enforce on each other as well. I talk about. One of the challenges I've had actually, is making immigrant women from. From literally. So I'm Singaporean of Indian origin, you know, um, from the South Asian subcontinent ancestrally. And I've had. I've had a lot of trouble making close friends from these, um, communities that are exactly like mine, that, you know, people who look like me, um, because I've seen a lot of scarcity thinking. I've seen. Seen, you know, the type of rivalry which could be someone's in a completely different career and life stage and life situation than you, but there's a little bit of, like, if you're getting ahead, I'm losing out somehow. Right. It could be in something completely, like, it could be someone in a very different field. But there's a level of scarcity there that I see among immigrants. And I don't, like, this is not from a shame and blame situation or mindset. This is from a, ah, we are in a society that has pitted us against each other. You think about the immigration process, you think about a lottery system, you think about how scarce, um, you know, we were made to feel about, like, jobs and, you know, security in general. Um, so I know where it comes from. But it can be very, very hard in practice because, again, one of the core tenets of the book is collaboration and community building. And we can't do that if we don't, or we can't do it honestly and truthfully and radically if we don't push back against this narrative that there's only, like, room for one person to succeed.

Speaker A: Now it makes me want to ask you, immigrants are not immigrant. This is general human behavior. Does competition and jealousy go hand in hand?

Speaker B: Then there is. So I looked a lot more at envy than jealousy. The terms are often used interchangeably, although they. They are different. So envy is essentially, I want something that you have, right? And there. And there are a Couple of ways that are. That are sort of mind psychologically process envy, right? So there's. There's benign envy, which is, I see you doing something great, and I'm motivated by it. I'm motiv. It motivates me to do, you know, better in my own life. Right. So I see that, like, you've won, you know, um, you ran a marathon. And benign envy would be, oh, my gosh, Tamina's so cool. Or Tamina is an amazing photographer. Oh, my gosh, like, that's so cool. How. How can I kind of channel some of the envy I feel about that? To become a better photographer, for example. And then, uh, and then there's malicious envy, which is like sabotage and trying to take someone down. You know, going online, for example, and posting, like, terrible reviews. So it's like very, like, it's very jealously. It's sort of. It's in a. It's. It's a negative emotion, and it results often in negative action. And jealousy is literally, you take. Wanting to take away. It's like most. It's most often used in the context of, like, a romantic partner. And it's essentially you feel worried. Uh, you, You. You want to, like, take away something someone else has, and that's actually like a material thing. Right? So it's not like feeling like, envious about someone's vacation because you see them and they're on vacation and you channel that energy. But it's more like, I want to take away that vacation away from them, which is not possible. But you can certainly, for example, want to take away someone's partner, you know, and that's. And that's jealousy, for example.

Speaker A: Oh, that's a really great way to define it because I don't know if all of us always think about those two, you know, interchangeably.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah. Well, when it comes to immigration, there are just so many layers of problems. There's the policy, where the policies are getting set from the scarcity mindset and using fear, as well as, you know, all these other different emotions to channel the policies that, uh, we are in a moment in history where that is probably at its peak. I m. Hope it's at its peak. I hope it doesn't get any worse. But, you know, so there's the policy element. I'd love to chat about policy. But then there's the individuals. The individuals who. There's. The H1B lottery is about to change. And it's not going to be just bachelor's and masters. It might be like how much is your wage going to be and is that going to be the thing that your parent is now going to brag about? You know, so many things that happen in the South Asian community particularly. So there's a policy, there's the individual. Let's just go to those two places and then I want to ask some more questions after that.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I have to say on a policy level, uh, Tamina, I'm fascinated by the short sightedness of some of how the discussions around immigration happen. Now I'm by no means like you, an immigration expert, so I cannot speak to it at all from a legal standpoint. Um, but I will say the mindset that really bothers me. Right. And the mindset is what we're really looking at even in uncompete is that immigration seems to be one of the areas where people are okay with make or like supporting policy decisions or putting through policy decisions that actively, um, harm them too. Right. Like to me it's really surprising now whether we're looking at sort of. And I, you know, I really struggle with the way these categories are named, but whether you look at employment based highly skills skilled immigration, or whether you look at um, figuring out how to ensure that people who are in this country and contributing to this country who are undocumented but have an ability to continue contributing to very vital parts of this economy, whether it's agriculture, whether it's the service and restaurant industry, um, it really boggles my mind. What I have seen, what is clear to me is people are actually okay with making decisions that actively harm themselves in these very draconian policies. Because the mindset is I don't want to see you succeed. Right. There's no place for you. And that's what really bothers me because imagine you're applying for, uh, and let's take the case of someone on an H1B visa or in a different, quote, highly skilled visa category, they've applied for a job at a technology company. There's research to show that there aren't Americans currently who are qualified or who have the same qualifications who can do those jobs. Is there abuse in the system? Absolutely. I'm not saying there isn't. Right. Is there, is there time for reform? Absolutely, there's time for reform. But my worry is in creating this sort of dichotomy of like, this is what. And not even being clear about like what do you need to actually be on an H1B visa? I mean I talked to so many people who just when the new policy announcement came out it was message in a way that was very confusing and fear mongering and sort of like caused a lot of like reaction and flurries. I mean there were videos on social media of people standing up midair in, you know, in their flights because they were like, oh my goodness, like does that mean I can't return back? Does that mean like what does that mean for me? So I think that there's um, it's going to, it's going to have these long term impacts and I'm very similar. Surprised again it boggles my mind that people would co opt these policy decisions that are harmful for the economy that you live in.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: As well as for the people who are being harmed.

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Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Tell us about that. And then if you had another opportunity, uh, whether it looks like that or something else, what would that entail?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, here's what the part that bothers me a lot now. When I was called to testify to the US House of Representatives Financial Services Community Committee in 2019, it was a bipartisan committee that was dedicated to diversity and inclusion. Um, and I sat in front of lawmakers on, quote, both sides of the aisle who understood why diversity and inclusion was very important for healthy economy and healthy financial services in this country. Um, and it was, you know, it was a moment that felt really good. Like we were talking about age diversity, we were talking about women in the workforce, we were talking about supporting mothers. Like it was just, it was such an important conversation. And it was interesting because it was in the backdrop of the last, um, administrator, the administration, before the Biden administration. And even then it was clear that there was a real interest in making sure that this was, you know, these were topics that didn't feel divisive. Um, and this time around it's, it's difficult. I mean, honestly, I'm there, you know, people like me who are, um, lawfully here in this country, but have been given a lot of, or heard a lot of rhetoric that we're not welcome because we're not naturalized or we're not American born, um, is, is, is scary and concerning. So there's definitely, I mean, if I'm being honest here, there's of course of a lot a part of me that's like, if I was invited, would I go right now? Because I don't think I'd be as welcome as I was back in 2019. But if I could go back or if I could go forward and be asked and invited again, for me the focus would really be that the zero sum thinking of like designing immigration policies and messaging. Okay. Because I'm a journalist, the communication side is deep. For me, communicating these policies is like us versus them. Designing these policies as us versus them rather than like what is best for everyone who lives in this country and works in this country. Um, is for me where I think that there's a lot of potential.

Speaker A: You know, I think that makes a lot of sense. And it's almost like every human being needs to read your book because it's, it's from taking your kids to school to like getting your first job.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Getting that promotion to setting policies. And it's not just one thing, it's basically everything. It's about changing your complete mindset. Question for you, did it come up in your research or do you write about it? I'm very much about positive energy. Like I only want to talk to people I love. I want to just do the work I love. You know, there's a, uh, there's a lot. The word love gets thrown around at my office and in my day, all about the love, you know, love in action, all of those things. But when you are harboring a negative connotation like competition and that is consuming you. Mhm. Does that drain you? Does that make you perform worse? I mean, what has come up up in personal growth when you have that

Speaker B: kind of mindset, it's so bad for you. I mean, a scarcity mindset is bad for you. There is research to show how it actually negatively impacts you. When you think this idea of like, uh, everything's limited, everyone is out to get you, you don't have, you know, positivity in your life. You know, you better. You, you should just be hard because, you know, if I'm soft to be everyone's out to get me. It's bad for you, it's bad for your, for your emotional health, it's bad for your physical health. The level of burnout we see in competitive workplaces and competitive industries. I've been looking at like for example commercial law firms and I've been uh, some of the research around that is really interesting. And then of course if you marry and my um, you know, the, the importance of gender and how much it impacts women, um, lawyers and women who are in especially big firms where they have to work these impossible hours but also can't feel support. It can't feel like they can make um, community and connections with other people in the same boat as them because there's this constant like if I, if I let my guard down, they're going to like come for my job type of situation. Um, so it's really bad for you. There's, I mean joy is so much a part of this book. Feeling, learning to be embodied and not think of yourself as a tool of productivity and capitalism. Which again from the immigrant standpoint, this is where I write like I, as an immigrant and my parents. And not only am I an immigrant, but my parents are. I think we share this experience where my parents actually immigrants to the country that I was raised in. So it's like two generations of immigrants. Immigrants, um, you know, completely. Of course we're taught that like you can only be in this country, you're only worthy if you're producing. And so there's such a disproportionate um. I talk about how I am my ancestors wildest dreams because I can choose to rest and not give in on all the time to be productive and make more money and rise up the ranks. And what I'm hearing from you, Tamina, is from choosing joys like, like bird watching and your coloring books and understanding that like you're a whole human being and you don't have to be only one thing. And not only one thing will give you joy and, and self worth.

Speaker A: Yeah, you answered the question I was going to ask you next because I'm like, oh, she said the word joy. What does joy mean to you? I mean you've talked about bird watching, but how do you find joy? What, what gets you centered and you know, when you're writing about uncompete, you are obviously very. Intention. Intentional about not competing so how do you get to that Zen place so that when you're hearing this chatter from other people, but this and about that, and you know, you have to come from a positive place to even convey that, hey, you don't really have to do that, but you have to send to yourself to even be able to say it. So what. What's joy for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, two things. One is. And I. And I draw upon the work word of a, uh, work of Dr. Adia Gooden, who is a psychologist. And she talks about developing like, radical self worth. And for me, one, the one part of joy is like finding deep self worthiness, like deep self compassion, like knowing I am good even when I'm not producing or I'm good and I'm totally worthy, even if I'm at rest or I'm doing things that are not making me money. So there's one part of it which is that, which is internal. And then the, the external part of joy, I think is communal and things I can do that can share, you know, um, positive experiences with other people. So the thing I write about in my book, and since you're based in Seattle, you will understand and hear this. One of the things I write about is what gives me joy is like, when I bite into like, the right peaches in the middle of summer that I buy from the same person. I've been buying it for the 13 years I've lived in Seattle from the same grocer farmer's stand in Pike Place Market. And I'll bite into it and the juice will drip down my chin. And it's a communal experience in the way that, like, I'm, I'm, um, you know, I'll go with my husband and my son, so we're enjoying it together. I'll talk to the grocer and I'll, uh, to the farmer and I'll say, you know, thank you so much.

Speaker A: Much.

Speaker B: Like, what would you recommend? You recommend this one or this one or this one? What's new? What's. And there's a level of joy, right, because you're. You're not going to a big supermarket chain where everyone's being squeezed. You're going to someone who has literally lovingly picked it from the, you know, planted it and then. And then picked it from the earth. So there's this like, whole ecosystem where the joy is shared. It's not about that one. Sort of like I went and, you know, I got whatever, I took a bubble bath and now I'm okay.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, totally. You Know, I, um. I have embraced joy in more ways than one, and it keeps expanding. It's sort of like if it's a. I don't know what example to give, but the universe delivers once you find something and you ask for it. And so my bird watching became bird photography that then became, like. I wrote a journal called Finding Joy, because so many people came to me, said, how did you. You know, I would love something like this. And I said, well, you know, bird watching might not be your thing, but you. This is the roadmap I had. Here's my journal. You know, go follow it. And then I've been having joy parties, so you have to come to the next one and talk about the peaches. I would love to. It's been really, really amazing. You know, it's been a, um, closed group of people. I immediately did it for immigration lawyers, and I expanded it because I realized immigration lawyers are going to need something to get through each day. And I'm about to hold my first virtual one because I have friends outside of Washington, so you'll have to come to that. But it really goes hand in hand with the competition mindset. And it's one mindset at a time that you have to sort of tweak for it all to come together, don't you think?

Speaker B: Absolutely. And what's surprising is, once you start thinking this way, how many things fall into place? Like, you started, I assume, with some level of, like, my job is really stressful. It's busy. I'm going to try bird watching. And then that photography. And then realizing, like, how much of this joy is also about connection and sharing. Right. And the fact that the first community you turn to were people who should, in theory, be your rivals. Right. In a competitive system, other immigration lawyers are your rival. Right. And so what you did is you said, no, like, I am building a community because there's so much shared connection and there's so much shared solidarity in, like, what we do. And so turning to that community already, m. To me means you've been uncompeting all this while already. So it starts, I would say, yes, with that one tweak. But what you'll start to see is your whole life becomes extreme expansive as a result. And. And so that's why I think, yes, there's a part of it where, of course, to compete or not compete is. Is intentional. But I think once you go down that path, what you start seeing is, like, everything else starts falling in place, too.

Speaker A: I love that. I didn't really even think of it that way. It's just, you know, these are my people, these are my friends, these are the folks I go to. I don't even, uh, think of that. So that's, that's amazing. We're not going to have enough time to even talk about all the things. But I want to, I want to um, from your deep experience as an immigrant, as a mother, somebody who's gone through the competition pathway, somebody who's written all these books, we are in a very challenging time in history and immigrants, uh, and you know, the people I work with are often startup founders who may not be the immigrant, but they are hiring their first recruits who are immigrants. Uh, people who are in the ecosystem who are investing, investors investing in immigrants, immigrants who are starting their companies, immigrants who have mixed ah, status families. What can you tell them? What m. Guidance. What would be your top guidance to people when you know you're laid off and oh my God, there's, I need to get another job to even stay here. There are just so many angles of anxiety and questions. My child, I can't leave because, because my child is here with their friends in the school. It's like the layers of problems are even, like, even overwhelming to even list right now. But when you think of these, this community and you want them, you want them to take some nuggets away from uncompete.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: What do you want to tell them?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think the number one is to never stop investing in your community. And I think one of the difficulties of immigration and being an immigrant is this again, this belief that like, all you have to do is work and that there's no time to make space for community and connection. And I think that's really important because in my own past, when I have, um, you know, when I have left my job, when I have started my own business, when I was looking for jobs, when I think of, you know, when I was kind of in that H4 phase where I was like, look, I can't, I can't work for money. But is there volunteering I could do? It really came down to like, who was in my community that I could turn to and say, like, I'm really struggling now, could you help me? Um, so I think sometimes as immigrants we don't think we need to do that because the most important thing is to be put in, you know, 24 hours in the workplace if we can. So I think there's that. I think the other thing that I would really, um, encourage is what I've noticed is there are in these times which are very divisive and polarizing where there's a lot of, of harmful rhetoric against immigrants. I have seen many more immigrants, um, kind of um, you know, have rivalries with each other and feel like they, it's it again, uh, conform to the us versus them theories, um, of like, oh, I came here to this country, you know, legally and I have all these documents, but these other people don't. So yes, I will not be able to. I don't need to empathize, empathize with the situation they've been through or what they're coming up through. Um, and that has been hard to see. I've been sad to see that there are very prominent members of um, you know, in, of leaders in our society today that have, who have been children off immigrants who have been immigrants themselves who may be, you know, in mixed status families. As you said, like there's partners, maybe the immigrants and they have still very much fueled the anti immigrant rhetoric. So I would love to see more of us stand in solidarity with each other even if our circumstances may be different. There is a lot of similarity in our experiences, you know, that. And that solidarity is what will help us navigate this time not turning against each other. Right.

Speaker A: Um, I really, really believe that. And you know, when I think of the moment I read the title of your book, I don't know what grabbed me. It really grabbed me because I believe in that and I think if there's.

Speaker B: You do, that's what connected us. I mean you, you have embodied this. As much as the title might sound like a new idea, like I have seen especially immigrant women and women of color embodying it in separate places in my life like yourself, you know, it's,

Speaker A: and it can only be a win win if everybody um, comes together. And as you said in solidarity, one of the things that I have been doing intentionally in recent years is really connecting a lot of my clients to each other. You got an approval in this startup and let's, your startup has a different thing. Let's connect you. Let's see how you both, you know, increase your revenue. And you have these um, you know, businesses, uh, ideas that are very complementary. Uh, it's, it's been really um, eye opening to see how that collaboration just keeps blossoming and blossoming and growing. And you know, it's, it's almost like I need to keep a whole bunch of books of yours when they come out on my desk to just like I really do believe that. So we, we need to do a Part, part two at some out so you can hold it up. Uh, but if you can move your head just a second. Yes, that, behind that. That's the book. Woohoo. It's beautiful. Um, what date does it come out? How can people contact you, who can contact you and um, you know, anything else you want to share with people?

Speaker B: People? Yes. Thank you. Uncompete comes out on 11-04-2025. So if you are able to, it's incredibly helpful to an author. Tamina will tell you this. Um, for to pre order the book, um, you know, or order it from your local library or uh, you know, share it with your friends on your social media or by email and say like I'm really excited about this, this book. So um, the best way to connect with me is through my website. There's a form on it. Um, you can go to uncompetebook.com is the best way to reach me. Um, I also you know, try and share my ideas. I, I like to share as many of my ideas as I can more freely rather than through, I mean books you have to buy. But um, so I have like a free LinkedIn newsletter. I have a free newsletter from my website which again you can register on uncompetebook.com um, and yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker A: Well, thank you so much. Ruchika. You are an incredible thought leader. Um, trailblazing very difficult concepts.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: In a uh, world that doesn't necessarily want to hear it. And you are doing a uh, phenomenal job in making sure that people do listen and that's where it all starts and hopefully they'll read. Is there going to be an audiobook for this?

Speaker B: It is. I actually recorded my audiobook last week. I nearly lost my voice. It's uh, it's a, it's a process but indeed it comes out on the same day. So if you go to uncompetebook.com, you will see an audio version to, to pre order as well.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Well Ruchika, thank you so much for giving us some of your time. I can't wait for part two and keep doing the amazing job that you're doing.

Speaker B: You too. Thank you so much Tamina for making space for me. Thank you.

Speaker A: Appreciate it.

Speaker B: Tamina Talks is brought to you by Watson Immigration law. Founded in 2009, Watts Watson Immigration Law is one of Seattle's premier immigration firms specializing in business and investment visas, but offering a wide range of immigration services. If you need assistance with your immigration needs, Watson Immigration Law is ready to help. Just call 206-292-5237 to schedule an appointment, mention this podcast to receive a 10% discount off your initial consultation fee.

Speaker A: Sam.