Ep.21 - From Single Pop-Up To One Of London's Most Loved Restaurants | Marc Summers | Supy Talks Podcast

Welcome to another episode of Supee Talks. Today I'm joined by Mark Summers, founder of Boubala, a veg led Middle Eastern restaurant group in London that's grown from pop ups into a number of sites across the capital. Boubala is one of those rare things you rate. It's not because of the hype, it's because they get the fundamentals right. Great produce, great food, good hospitality and somewhere you could go every night of the week. So Mark, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Nice to be here. Yeah, pleasure, pleasure. Like to get started, I'm going to do a round of quick fire questions just to get a sense of your tastes and flavors. Sounds good. So first of all I want to know what is your favorite restaurant that isn't Boubala? I guess the way I would look at that is where do I go to the most where I'm just walking around like oh I really am craving that restaurant and I'd say I really love Colle in Borough Market. I love what Andy and those guys do and everything just tastes amazing. So much flavor. Yeah. Chicken skewers. Muscle skewer is amazing. Yeah, amazing. And what's your guilty pleasure? Food or restaurant? There's a kebab shop near me in Southgate called Dionysus and it's, I mean it's just something I often crave is that it's like a real, it's not that it's not even that dirty but it's just, I don't know, something about kind of like a grilled piece of meat and veg and in a pitta with some sauce, garlic sauce. Something that it does to our brains, isn't it? Yeah, amazing. And is there any, what's your favorite like low key space you go to for drinks with friends or food with friends? I love going to the Clarence, Clarence Tavern in Stoke Newington. Big favourite of mine. Great local place, good cooking, great drinks and somewhere you'd recommend to tourists who haven't been to many places in London. Yeah, I mean I went there last week actually. But quality Chop House is just such an amazing space and it's feels so London. I think that's the best thing about it. It doesn't feel like, I don't know, it feels like there's not gonna be another quality Chop house anywhere in the world. So that's kind of where I would say anyone who's coming to visit London should go to. Yeah, it's like very London but it isn't and you can go as a tourist and Feel welcome. The food's good. It's saying like, the best of British. Anyway. Definitely. Amazing. Okay, cool. And now I want to get into talking about boubla. So, like, from the outside, as someone who's been to your restaurant, it feels like bouble was an overnight success. But like, from your side, what does it actually take to get there? Yeah, it's funny just because obviously my view on that is completely different. I mean, we started as a pop up two years before we opened Spitalfields. So in that two years, really just tried every kind of version of our food that we could. Just really listening to feedback and. And really honing what we wanted to do over those two years. So although it feels like an overnight success, there was, you know, quite a lot went into proving the concept. Yeah, yeah. And what were some of the things that changed over those two years? Funnily enough, the Bubbler Knows Best, which we're pretty famous for now, was in the same format as it was in that first ever pop up. But what I would say is that change is just changing the style of the dishes if they didn't work. You know, one of the things that I think I learned most was just leave your ego at the door. Like, even if you think a dish is amazing, if the guests don't think it's amazing, just take it off straight away. Don't try and push it. What was one of those dishes that ended up off the menu that you loved? We thought it was a really clever dish at the time, but it was a celerical 3K, which was. We kind of turned it into like a free K risotto, had loads of dice lyric in there. And then we served it with like a raw celeriac slaw. Nice. And just the response was everything we didn't think it would be, but again, like, you know, that was. That was actually on the restaurant menu from day one, but I think it was maybe a weekend. We were just like, look, it's not working. You gotta remove it. Let's get something else on and try something else. Because if it doesn't work, just if you make. If you made a mistake, just sort it out quickly. That's something you just can just make at home. Enjoy yourself. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's never been seen since. Yeah, exactly. And was it more that the format you were changing over those two years, the menu, like the service style, like, what were the kind of areas that evolved the most? Yeah, I think, to be honest with you, that time was spent mainly on the food side. Really kind of honing the menu, because I think that was the area that we really wanted to work on most. I think also because it's not your own space, it's very hard to, I guess, create the vibe that you want to create in two hours when you've got the keys to somewhere and you've got two hours to set up the kitchen, the front house. I think for me personally, that was more so on the food side that I wanted to really hone and make sure it was right. I think once you get into a space and you create the space that you want, that's when you can really work on the other side of things. Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like at the beginning, when you're just opening a restaurant or a concept, when people offer you opportunities, ideas, you kind of want to say yes, but they must reach a point where you have to say no and keep to the core of what you're doing. What are some of the things that you would have said yes to in the early days that you say no to now? Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah. We said yes to everything in our early days. And I think you have to. I think, like, you need to make people aware of what you do and who you are and if, you know, if you're a good person to work with or. So saying yes to everything at the start is great. I think there just comes a point. I think it was more like post Covid, because during COVID we did so much. I think post Covid, we had to realize, actually, this is our core business. Restaurants are where we've got to focus most of our time on. And so we would just. If there's certain events outside events that we just couldn't do because we didn't have the team to do it, we just had to, you know, at times say no, just to really. I don't know, probably more so for, you know, myself. Yeah. Just to make sure that we're not kind of overworked and just. Yeah. Also, you want to do a good job for those things. And if you can't, if you haven't got the time or the headspace, it just. You start doing those things and you realize, actually, if I can't do it to my best, then what's the point? Yeah. And you spend a long time, like, building a reputation for something, and people are quite quick to, like, erode. It can be quick to erode that if you kind of push it straight in yourself too far. So are there any types of events specifically Then you would not do now that you did before. And, like, what are the type of things outside of the restaurant that you really love doing and you still say yes to? I think just being a bit more picky on what events that we do outside the restaurants, because we, you know, we still want to do events, and it's a really great way of getting your name out there. And. And also, you know, events is something that we do want to be doing in the future, which will be kind of almost like a separate part of the business. So, you know, for example, like, we loved, you know, we did the wilderness banquet, and that was amazing, serving 600 people in a day. And that, you know, in a banquet style, is the way we like to serve food as well. So it's all feasting. And whereas kind of sometimes when we have done, say, a stall, we often have to adapt our menu to that. And therefore, you're not really getting the true bubbler experience. You can get that experience across in a different setting, but if you can't get that experience across, it's kind of like you're just doing it. There's not a clear reason why. Exactly. Yeah. It has to be a clear reason why. Great. And I feel like I did mention at the beginning, but Bubla doesn't feel like a vegetarian restaurant. Is that intentional? Yeah, that is completely intentional. And the way we like to describe it is, you know, it's a Middle Eastern restaurant that happens to be vegetarian. That was, you know, especially when we first started. There was a lot of kind of fake meat and vegan restaurants and. And. And kind of pop up starting. Yeah. And really, this is. This wasn't about being preachy or you must be vegan, you must be vegetarian. You know, I'm not vegetarian myself, so is not about that. It's about creating an amazing experience that just doesn't serve me. Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of the things I feel like it makes you feel like you could eat there any night of the week, because you go away feeling like it's hearty food, delicious, punchy flavors, but, like, you're not heavy, and you could actually go and have it for lunch the next day too, which is really, really cool. Do you have to make any adjustments to the design of the menu to kind of find the balance in a meal that doesn't have meat? I think the fact that I'm not vegetarian, I think where my mind goes to with food is you kind of. You need to be hitting different textures and flavor profiles. And so I think naturally we are picking up those umami notes and those flavors from other vegetables. For example, our mushroom skewer at Babala, the amount of times people say that, you know, it's like eating a skewer of chicken, we're not setting out to do that. But, like, the beauty, I guess, of using different vegetables for different dishes is that you do get different textures, you do get different flavor profiles. And I think one of the things is just great that people just start to see that, oh, yeah, it's not just like veg that they've seen before. Like, we're doing something completely different and unique. And I think it does have to. It makes you a bit more creative sometimes. Like, you know, that's. It makes you stand out as a restaurant because you're doing things that maybe people aren't eating anywhere else. Definitely. And as for the chefs, for you in the business, it makes them think, like, what could I use to make this texture that I don't have access to? So I think that's just quite cool. Yeah, Yeah. I can imagine how that works really well. And what is the kind of feeling you want people to leave your restaurant with? Like, what's, what are you aiming for there? Yeah, look, we, we talk about it quite a lot. We want everyone to leave happy that that's the main goal. Like, we want, you know, from the start of the experience, right at the beginning, you know, when someone walks through the door to be greeted with a smile and, you know, understanding that people, you know, whoever comes to restaurant, they might have had a really bad day or they might have had an amazing day. And we've got to kind of cater to like, okay, if they've had an amazing day, how do we make it even better? By, like, being the experience that really were like, oh, how it's best day. And then we went to blah, blah, and it was the most amazing experience. And for people who haven't had the best day and we've turned it around, like, some of my favorite moments from being on the floor when we first opened was those really, like the customers, the guests that really don't want to be there. Yeah. And then by the end of it, they're almost high fiving you, giving you a hug and that that's kind of the warmth that we want to bring to people's experience. Yeah. Because when we were chatting before, I thought you summed up really well. You said you want something like a generous, warm meal. Yeah. You know, I think it's really cool. And I imagine those wins when you People can be resistant to going somewhere that doesn't have meat. And when you turn those people around and they go, all right, I was wrong, that's. That's quite satisfying for you. At the end of the meal, though, the amount of times people said, was that veggie? I didn't realize there was no meat on that menu. That's an amazing. For us, that's like, yeah, you don't need to be thinking of it like, yeah, like, I need my protein and carbs. Like, no, we're not that kind of restaurant. No, I feel like that's moving with the times as well. Like, people are learning a lot more about, like, the advice we had as kids, maybe about how what kind of macronutrients you need is like, science is kind of selling us actually. Maybe it wasn't right on that front. So that's kind of nice probably for you to be on that wave because you've earned being there. But it is a rising tide as well. Yeah. Timing has a lot to do with it as well. I almost feel like if we did this concept 10 years ago. Well, actually it's almost been 10 years now, but 10 years prior to that, probably it wouldn't have had the same impact as an operator, like, time, it's quite tough. Like, margins are very tight. So does being veg led give you some protection against kind of food cost volatility? It does look, I mean, vegetables are cheaper. They are. But I mean, I guess when you first start, for example, when we first started Bubbler, the margins would have been X. They have increased. So, like. However, it doesn't really matter. There is still an impact, but. But what it kind of does allow us to do is because those margins did start off in a good place, that we probably can afford to eat into them a bit more than maybe others can to, I guess, survive and grow. Yeah. Cause you've got the confidence now. You probably understand your business. Who's going to come in the door? You've got three sites, I believe, at the moment. So then you can have a bit of a better negotiation with your suppliers. How do you go about, like, choosing your suppliers, picking your suppliers, working with them? Yeah, I mean, we've worked with some of the same suppliers for a long, like since the beginning. I mean. Yeah, I mean, we look when it comes to veg, we want to work with the best producers and farmers that we can. And then look like a lot of it is, you know, the people behind it as well. I mean, for example, our bread, our laffer, flatbread is made by Fizza in. In Ridley Road Market. And just, you know, it's turntable and they're just making flatbreads all day long. And she's amazing. And like, you know, right at the back when we first started. Yes. I would go every Sunday to pay her for the week's breads. And there's something quite special about that, like really staying close to suppliers and. Yeah. And, you know, I'd go there, pay for the week's breads and then she, you know, I've made you a flatbread and take away and like, it was just a really nice. I love that kind of relationship as well. And that again, that goes back to when people enter the building. It doesn't matter when service starts. Like, we just want that warmth to be. It's not just right, it's turn service on and that's it. It's a constant. That's really cool. And just because I'm personally curious, you must go through a lot of chickpeas, mushroom, cauliflower, things like that. What type of volumes are we speaking? Someone told me this week actually that we almost go through a ton of aubergines a month. Wow. Which is pretty. A ton of veggies. I think we. We go through 100 kilos of hummus a week. Yeah, the volumes are inside. I mean, when we get a mushroom delivery and we get them every day, like oyster mushroom skewers. For the oyster mushroom skewers just get palate, like just. Lots of just. Yeah, yeah. You can't see past the crates, like. And that's every day. Yeah, yeah, that's. That is pretty insane, I think also, versus, I guess, you know, meat and fish. Yeah. Veg, they take up a lot of space. Yeah. And does it take. It takes a lot of space, actually. That's what's going to be my next question about what are the challenges having like veg led restaurant that standard restaurants might not have? I imagine there's space. Does it also take a lot of prep to break down vegetables? Yeah, definitely. Prep's a big one. Yeah, I'd say. Yeah. Our biggest pinch points are storage and space to prep because I don't know, even if you think about a cauliflower, like, there's a lot of that cauliflower that needs trimming and you know, they, again, they come in. In big crates and you got, you know, I mean, ideally you probably have to prep them for putting them away just because you just don't have the space to just store crates of veg. So. Yeah. I'd say yes. Storage and prep is probably the biggest pains that we have. Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. And now you're up to three sites. What were some of the things you maybe underestimated when going from one to two or to three sites? It's funny, I think you obviously know it at the time, but making sure that the culture is right as you grow is really important. And I think we got lucky first time around when we went from one to two sites. I think my naivety in. I mean, with Spitalfields, we opened within six weeks. Wow. And I think I probably had that same mindset with SoHo, which actually took nine months. But what that did allow us to do is actually hire the most senior people sooner. So we actually had the general manager and the assistant general manager for soho six months before we opened, which at the time was like, oh, this is. This is costly, very costly. But at the same time, what that did for the opening and the culture was huge because it just meant that those. Those two really senior people were able to really understand what we do and what we stand for. And also, you know, we got time to work with them as well. So when we actually then opened SoHo, you know, the culture was really good. And I was. I was. I guess I was quite surprised at that. But at the same time, it just made me realize that actually you do need to spend. You can't just have a team. Right. A month before we open this, get everyone together. Yeah, that is. That's something you need to be able to kind of implement sooner. And I think the King's Cross even more so. It was amazing because we took managers from Spitalfields and soho, and pretty much the whole management team had been at Pueblo for at least a year again, which made kind of. I mean, that is. Yeah, creating a culture is the hardest part. And I think being able to do that was pretty special, actually. So it wasn't like, right, we have to hire a whole new team and get them. You know, it was. The team really saw growth as an opportunity and a challenge. And, yeah, really, it was really exciting to see that. That is amazing. And I think it's probably something. One site, you are the culture. Yeah, it's coming out of you. Everyone's working with you every day. But actually scaling up, that's probably something you don't think about until a little bit later on. But when you've got three sites, some people. Some people in the business might not have even heard of what your restaurant is before joining. So it's quite a Big thing to change. And is there something. So say you're going to site four or five, whatever. Is there something you're looking for in those highs? What is that culture? Yeah, it's funny, we're actually trying a lot at the moment to figure that out. What are we looking for in those people? I think a lot of it's been gut up until now is this person. Right. You know, but now I think we really want to start understanding what. What really makes someone a leader. Yeah. And, you know, that is kind of making sure that the guest is looked after. Really understanding. I think now we are, you know, a group of restaurants. Yeah. Understanding the bigger picture is really big because we need those people to really understand that, okay, someone might be sick at another site, we're going to need to lean on the sites. And actually, another thing that's amazing at the moment is that it's really instilled in the culture now. The sites want. The restaurants want to help each other because they know that we're part of a bigger thing now. It's not. Yeah, it's really cool. And that's something that we want to keep going and making sure that people don't feel like, right, no, this is our restaurant. But we're actually a collective. That's really cool. And I've heard that your King's Cross site is flying even at the weekends in January, so you must be doing something right on that front. And are there any, like, particular hires in the business that you've brought in that have really, like, changed the game for you as, you know, owner, operator? Yeah, I think as soon as. I mean, from day one until basically Covid, which was only six months, it was me just head down very much thinking day to day. And I think you can. You can really start when you actually take yourself away from it, realize that if you're doing everything, you're doing it kind of 50, 60%, whereas actually when you start hiring good people, you know, they could be doing it at 95% and actually with a lot more experience. So, you know, we've got an amazing team at the moment in our support office. And, yeah, they're just really ambitious and hungry and I guess encapsulate that leadership values I was talking about before, where, you know, they do want to make sure that every guest leaves happy. And so, yeah, I mean, we. We've only recently kind of built this support office structure, but that the team are really amazing. That's cool. And you're being recognized for it, like code. You just won Happiest place to work. Yeah. That must be really nice for you. But also for everyone in that team to, like, get that stamp of approval. 100%. I think that was. Honestly, that was probably the proudest moment of running Pueblo. You don't start a restaurant to have the best culture. I mean, that isn't why you get into it. But slowly, as we've grown, it's like, what an amazing. You know, if I want to step into a restaurant and feel happy as well, like, it really means a lot that the team. Because that award was voted for by our own team. Oh, amazing. Which is like. Yeah, it's amazing. And we do have a great team. And, you know, that is something that. Yeah, that really meant a lot. Yeah. And people work long hours. They're there a lot of the time, so. And as a guest, you feel it if people are happy in there or not. So that's awesome. Actually, I'm interested in your opening of the support office. Just thinking other people watching this might be at a similar stage to you where they are trying. They're going from one to a couple of sites. What order did you hire, the roles, in which roles did you hire, and how does that fit into your vision for what's next? Yeah, I think it's hard. I think you got to almost decide what is the most important right now. And also probably look at yourself and think, well, what are your. What is your skill set as well? Because where we're at now, look, we've got an operations director, We've got an ops manager, we've got a marketing manager, we've got a people manager and an executive chef. I think the first port of call really, for me was operations because it's such a broad term, but I think also because it's broad. An operations manager of one or two sites, I think, really understands that you do have to be kind of doing a lot of things. And then. Yeah, you just got a. You just really got to decide what. You know, I've got a bit of a background in finance and. Yeah. And finance is probably the one position we're missing at the moment in terms of, like, a full support office and business. Yeah. But I guess I felt that I could probably get us to a point. Yes. So again, yeah, I think you got. Yeah. What are your skills? And then think, well, what other skills does this business really need? I think. Yeah, I think starting with operations is probably a good point. Yeah, I think that's great advice. And yet you can't go wrong with operations because they're kind of like the problem solvers. There's not that everyone else isn't problem solving, but that's like the core of what they do. So that totally makes sense. And as you've kind of scaled up like what systems like sops have you put into place and are you using much tech to support what you're doing? Yeah, I mean tech is especially as you grow is becoming incredibly important. We use software called Tenso which kind of aggregates all of our tech into one place and it allows us to really see how the business is doing. And not to say that we let tech dictate all our decisions, we don't. But I think a mixture of gut and tech is really important. So the data that we, we get now because I don't know, you can, you can almost kind of think anecdotally all the time. Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure that's selling well. And then you look at the data, it's like no it's not. And actually turns out not many people like it. So you know, and I just think that's where yeah, I think you really need to use data. I think, yeah. Tenzo has been good for us because it, because it takes all of our information from all of our different tech stack and puts it into one place. That's really cool. And I think, I think as your. If you make a decision now, you kind of want to have the gut feel. You need to stay close to the pulse or whatever it is to have a feel but like to take the confidence to make changes across a number of restaurants. It's nice to have the data to back it up because like taking those decisions costs time, energy, money. So yeah, having that confidence is really good. Yeah. And has that visibility across sites kind of changed the way you make decisions? I guess it has, it's backing it up with data but like I guess then my question is are there any places where tech has reduced friction, like made your life easier? Communications? I don't know anything like that. Yeah, I mean I think on a day to day basis it's one of those things. I think it takes a long time to implement and get everyone on board. But I think once you. There's a lot of good tech out there but if you're not using it properly it's almost useless. So I think once if you're using the right bit of tech and you're using it to its maximum potential, it's amazing. And yeah, it definitely reduces friction. We're able to use or gain data that Otherwise would be. Right. Let's spend half a day going through our EPOS system and. Right. How much are we selling here? You know, it really does, I think, and it allows you to focus on what you want to focus on. Especially, like it's a people business that you don't want to be spending time going through data. Especially, you know, we don't have a finance person, so it's like it's going to be you. Yeah. And also, like, we want, you know, want to focus on what is important. Like you said at the start of the show. It's, you know, it's. It's the food, it's the vibe is the service, it's the warmth, it's how you feel and that's what we want to be focusing on. Yeah. Giving you more time. More time. Yeah. Are there any pieces of tech innovation that you're bringing in that you're excited for? Like, anything you've. You're kind of thinking, I'm going to bring this in and it's going to make a difference. Yeah. We're about to bring in a piece of tech called or Gravy, which is going to help with our kind of internal communications and it helps with training. It just. Yeah. I mean, we've always been anti WhatsApp as a. As a company anyway, so we've never had WhatsApp. Okay. Groups or anything. It's all very much, you know, we can't use a tech or blink. And it's enables you to put do not disturb on when you're not there. And, you know, I just, I think it just stops that blurred line of if you get WhatsApp, you can't turn that off because you're going to get WhatsApp from your personal life, whereas with an app that can be used during. During work, you can turn it off. And we very much say, please, if you've cleared your desk, do do not disturb. We won't. That's really cool. Yeah. I've heard a lot of good stuff about all gravy tea, so, yeah, I hope that goes well. And just going back a little bit to the cost pressures restaurants are facing, I think your set menu has gone from about 30 to £46 over a number of years. It's understandable. And you're probably standing still financially. So what does that say about the reality of running a restaurant stay? Yeah. Yeah. Like you said. So it's gone from 30 to 46 in six years and with no extra profit at the end of it, to be honest with you. And actually what it does, it just, it makes the whole value proposition skewed as well because. And really excitingly, actually as of the 15th of this month, February, we are going back to £39 across all our sites for our set menu because we want to remain value. Like there's nothing worse than like what when we first started at 30 pounds, you know, the feedback was so generous, so much food. 30 pound. What. What a bargain. Yeah. Whereas when that gets to 46 is people that, that changes to. I mean it's a, it's still generous. Yeah. But I don't need it, you know, I don't almost. I'd rather have less food and probably pay. Pay less. Yeah. And that's where we've kind of come to the conclusion that actually we want to, you know, for us it's so important that people come away not saying, but like, oh, it's generous but we want people to come away. Being like that was a no brainer. That is amazing. Like you're not going to get a better value meal, as good a food, as good a service as that in London. And that's kind of where we want to be. That's really exciting news. Yeah. And I feel like people can always add on. Right. So if you have a great set menu and someone wants more, there's more. Definitely. And then you get to try more of the menu, get more of the vibe, which is kind of all you want. Like when I go to a restaurant, I want to try as much of it as possible. Yeah. Also people would be like, no one would go for dessert as a result because they're just stuffed in this industry. There's a lot of hustle and bustle, there's a lot of chaos and normally there's some good stories from it. So like, can you tell me about a time when things have gone wrong and what you've learned from that? Yeah, I mean there's countless. I mean in the early days I probably could have written a story a week and actually looking back, I wish I'd written some of them down because I've forgotten most of them. But yeah, I mean from the pop up days there was a time where we, I kind of just started, we'd done a few pop ups, they've been fairly successful. And I thought I kind of said right now's the time I need to, you know, sell 150 tickets and, and really start to see if we can, we can do this on a bigger scale. And I remember one specific pop up where we did sell 150 tickets. But, you know, you come into these venues at like 4pm We've got two hours to set up, two hours to prep and finish prep. And, you know, it's not. It's a race against time. It's honestly a race against time. And especially when most of the time you haven't worked with a lot of people that you're actually working with and you've never seen the kitchen or worked in that kitchen before. And this was the first time we'd used this kitchen. And yeah, I had a table of family there. And I just. I remember, you know, they came at 6pm and at 9pm we still hadn't served them. And actually my uncle had walked out at that point and it was just. I just remember looking there thinking, I never want this feeling ever again. So that was a good learning. And then, I mean, even on the opening night of Bubba Spitalfields, we'd place the coffee machine perfectly over the electric. Electrical cupboard, which was a really smart move. And that overflowed and coffee went into electrics. All the electrics went down just before service. No EPOS system. We're writing checks. But you know what? It's one of those. I remember it so well. Like, we were writing checks. You know, we had candlelight in the. In the. In the kitchen. It was. Yeah, it was insane. Yeah, that's cool. Those are great, great stories. And you always learn from those kind of things. Amazing. Okay, final few questions now. So I was just wondering, like, as you've now you run a number of restaurants, is there any of your beliefs about owning and running a restaurant that have changed over time? Yeah, I guess. I think a funny thing, you know, I got into this for food. I love food. I love hospitality. I love, you know, cooking. I love eating. I love eating out. But it is funny. Like, it's. Food is one is obviously big, but it's. It ends up being a fairly small part of. Of what is. I mean, a massive ecosystem of things that need to be done in a restaurant. And like, I think the misconception is, you know, all right, if you get your food right and you got your drinks right and your service is good, you're gonna be good. Like, there's so much more that goes into it. And also, like, from a. I guess also from a financial point of view, there's. There's so many, like, so many costs and headwinds that you really gotta, like, be able to handle. You know, you could be the most popular restaurant in the world and not make any Money and be closed in two years. And it's like making sure that you've got everything in line. I wouldn't say it's complicated, but it's, it's hard to make sure that everything is where it should be. You know, I think it's really clear where margins kind of sit, but they can easily just, you know, utility bills going up could really skew it if you've got the wrong deal on that or, or, or your, your, you know, your payment rates and stuff. It's just so many things I think you, you underestimate. Even in the pop up days you kind of underestimate the difference between having or like doing a service versus looking after the building and, and what that entails. And there's so much that goes into it and I think you gotta be prepared for that. It's the bricks and mortars is not just pricey and huge risk. There's a lot of things you don't realize as you go into it as well. Yeah. And did you learn? Like I think that's a great point. Like, and I can see how there's not much that can educate you around that for getting into it out there. Maybe in some countries where they have a bit more like technical colleges and stuff, there is like how did you go and learn or is it just trial and error? Trial and error. I mean also each site is different. You know, Spitalfields again probably gave me a warped perspective of what opening a restaurant looks like because it was already a restaurant. We, you know, we gave it a lick of paint, new furniture, the kitchen was already there. A couple of things we have to change and like I said, we're open in six weeks. Whereas soho, it's a gut the place and the things you find when you got a place and you think you know how much things are going to cost and then they cost double and yeah, it's just those kind of balancing all of that and making sure that you can, you can deal with it. Yeah, I mean I guess you just learn as you go. I don't think there is a school of that. Like it's a school of life really. You're learning things that. And like every site we go into it's a completely different story. So it's amazing learning. I mean I'm hoping that at a certain point I've learned as much as I can. Yeah. But it just feels like every, every restaurant's different. Be prepared for chaos, basically. Yeah, I mean I think that was the pop ups as well like that that enabled you to really anything can happen. You've just got to be ready for it. It's all solution driven stuff. You just got. I used to. I don't know if it was a negative thing, but I always felt positive by saying it. But I used to think I still do, like, what's going to go wrong today? And it just almost mentally prepared me for when something did go wrong. Because ultimately they will. Yeah. Yeah. Change or chaos is the only constant thing. Yeah. If you go into every day. I can't. And I say that with service as well. If you go into a service, like, I hope this goes smoothly. I hope it goes smoothly. You're not ready for when it doesn't. And then. And then you panic. Yeah. If you go into it with a really clear mindset of I'm ready. Yeah. Like if anything goes wrong, then that's great. Don't take it too seriously as well because then you can just, I don't know, feel. Feel relaxed when you're making decisions and composed. Yeah. And when you've been through a lot of chaos and you also know that you got past that, like in the moment, it feels like the world's ending, but you know that it's not. It's not like you're going to have a time when you can look back on it 100%. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time, Mark. It's been great to chat from you. Great stories, great insights. Look forward to seeing Boobala continue to grow. So, yeah, it's been a pleasure having you on and we'll see you on another episode. Amazing. Thanks for having me. Pleasure.