Why Netflix Took a £14m Bet on Live Sports Podcasts

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: And welcome back to another edition of streamtime Sports. I'm your host, Nick Meachum, CEO at Sports Pro. Now, when I do these types of podcasts, I always find it a little bit weird, a little bit funny, because this podcast is going to be about the business of podcasting. Uh, and there couldn't be a better organization to be talking about profiling right now than Goal Hanger, who, uh, has come, really come to the fore with, particularly with the Rest Is Football from a sporting lens, but has so many different titles launched, a new number of new initiatives, um, which I think is

Speaker A: going to be really interesting for people

Speaker B: to understand and get a better grip of where sports media and indeed the podcasting world is heading. Um, so today I'm being joined by the CFO of gohanger, Andy Hodgson, who's giving us a little bit of insight into the business and some of the numbers and everything behind it. So what. Welcome, Andy, to the show.

Speaker A: Thanks so much, Nick. Lovely to be here. Very excited to talk to you.

Speaker B: Now, obviously, you'll be joining us in person at the Sports Pro Investment Summit next month on the 21st of July, but we thought we'd take a bit of time, particularly given a lot of the coverage around Goal Hanger and Rusty's Football, given the World Cups on at the moment, and talk a little bit about the business and dig into things there. But for those that aren't familiar really with the breadth and scale of Gohanger, set the scene for us. Uh, what is the company and how big is it today?

Speaker A: Yeah, sure, very happy to. Yeah, as you say, lots and lots going on at the moment. A really exciting place to be, Gohanger. So, um, yeah, we're, uh, we are a modern media company, uh, really at the forefront of what I think of as to where the whole media industry is headed in terms of video podcasts, uh, as I traditionally thought about. So in terms of scale, we've got 15 shows. Now, you mentioned football. Our, uh, other real flagships are history. So the Rest Is History is our biggest global podcast. We also do. The Rest is politics. The Rest is entertainment. The, uh, rest is science. A particular favorite of mine that's really growing super fast. Um, and across those 15 shows, uh, there's 85 of us or so in our offices down here in Kennington, just by the Oval, um, producing that entire slate of content with our, with, uh, our fantastic talent. So it's really exciting. Um, and that business has grown super rapidly. So from the Rest Is History, starting four years ago or so, now to grow that slate of 15 shows by the time we've commercialized that properly. We're currently running. Last year, I think it got announced in the, in the Times, we won an award for that. We can maybe come back to that, ah, 37 million in revenue somewhere, ah, around there. Uh, and we're broadly doubling year over year. So real great, uh, serious scale but also serious momentum which is super exciting.

Speaker B: And you've joined six months ago. You've come from both the tech background, uh, you were even at Uber before. Now coming into what some would say is a traditional media ecosystem, but is obviously going through a lot of disruption. How have you found the transition going from that world into this? Is it actually quite similar or is it, is it a whole new world for you?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's been really interesting. So this is indeed as you say, my first foray into media. But um, I guess the experience I've had over the last 10 years has been doing a number of real high growth businesses. Um, and certainly my, my theory coming in, which I think is definitely been proved, proved out, has been that actually that stage of growth and the challenges that you face through a stage of growth are actually far more consistent than necessary in an industry. I mean the challenges that Goal Hanger faces as a fast growing doubling business of around 85 people looks significantly closer to the challenges I've seen a few times now in various tech scale ups of a similar size than it does to a, uh, mega monolithic, uh, old media beast. So to that extent I think that my experience is transitioning across nicely and is hopefully helpful because I see the media industry is really going through a fascinating period of transition. It sure is and I hope you're going to lead it. It sure is.

Speaker B: And I think one of the most interesting things I've seen happen in particularly the podcasting space around sports. And we talk about a lot about this on the streamtime Sports, uh, podcast where we talk about the fact that there's so much um, built around the live sporting experience. But actually if you step put live sports aside, there's just as much if not more going on outside the live sporting experience, which is really driving sports fandom, uh, podcasting and content, particularly with some of the talent you have, uh, in your, on your books are some of the ones really driving that, particularly markets like the UK but indeed uh, globally. Um, so talk, and obviously I'll talk about the, the model in a second that you're, you're running on. But the most, I guess the most surprising thing I had happened to me last week, which is a bit random. This is the most surprising thing was in the build up to the World Cup I got a notification on my phone and it said starting in an hour's time, Rested Football on Netflix going Live. That sort of caught me by surprise because I didn't realize when I knew the deal was done between Netflix and rested Football that it was going to be live every day. It was going to be um, you know, being served on devices and pushed at a really interesting time. I think it was my morning here, but obviously in the evening in, in the us Just talk us through us about the genesis of that deal. Uh, was it. Do you feel like it's also like a one off opportunity that's come up, uh, and you've been opportunistic and be able to take advantage of that? Just talk us through some of the aspects of that one.

Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Hugely exciting deal and I'm pleased you've been watching. That's really good. A number of people have we got to number one show on Netflix last week.

Speaker B: I have to say it's a bit weird having drinking a glass of wine on, on the set while I'm having my breakfast, but nevertheless it still works I hear.

Speaker A: Yeah, I hear. But no, hats off to the production crew out there actually. I mean what those guys are doing is amazing because the games, you know, they finish it often. They're finishing at uh, 2, 3 o' clock in the morning our time and then they're getting a live show together to go out at 6am UK time. They uh, are, they're certainly working for their money out there, but um, no, a fantastic deal for us, a fantastic opportunity. I think things just came together nicely right in that Netflix were really looking to start to move into uh, podcasting more generally, but specifically around live events. Uh, and the World cup was just a perfect amalgamation of those two things. Um, and we were uh, you know, we found sort of meeting of minds I guess in terms of how that could work for both us and them. For us being able to put more production value into the offering in the show around the World cup, which we were excited about already. But to be able to do it in the way that we are with our live TV levels of production and a studio and Times Square, it's fantastic for everyone involved. So works really well for both sides and we're really enjoying that collaboration at the moment. It's getting some real success and cut through on Netflix and then uh, real success from my perspective actually has been on our Socials and we obviously chat, check our socials very regularly and keep a close eye on that. It's a really important funnel for our podcast. And uh, the social explosion around the Rest Is Football on Netflix, with that higher production value coming through to clips has been super impressive to see. Um, I don't know if it's made its way to your algorithms, but certainly that's where I've been getting endless forwards from all my friends with clips from the Rest Is Football, which is lovely.

Speaker B: It definitely has been. And I was actually remarking the other day to someone that uh, yesterday as we're recording this that um, I missed completely that the NBA draft was happening with all the World cup coverage. And Rest Is Football was definitely one of the things popping up on my fee quite a lot in lieu of what used to be one of the events that I would constantly get a lot of, served a lot of content on because I'm a. I do follow the American sports, uh, quite closely. Um, the, the deal itself is obviously an interesting one for a m. Multitude of reasons. Not just for you personally, but also you. Not personally, but the company, but also, uh, the industry as well. Seeing Netflix go into both regular live shows and leaning into the podcast genre more closely, reports are there's values. The value of the deal is around £14 million, which is what's being covered in different mediums. Not sure how close to the mark that that number is, but outside of the deal that's being agreed and the acquisition of content from Netflix as a, in that transactional sense that they normally have, do you see it having further impact to the P and L? Um, not just the visibility and the awareness, but are you able to extract more value out of it directly and or indirectly from a long tail of that extra visibility?

Speaker A: Yeah, look. So, uh, it's really interesting. I mean definitely we will make some money on the rest of football over the World cup, which is fantastic. But the real value for us isn't exactly what you're talking about. It's that it's both the expanded reach and awareness of Versus Football itself and then the broader goal hanger ecosystem that we're pushing, uh, because we are finding new fans and finding new, uh, audiences on Netflix, um, which is great. And we're really hopeful we can transition them effectively across back to the pod when it goes back to its traditional homes post, uh, World Cup. But that in itself is hugely valuable to us. Uh, and then beyond that, I just think it's a really exciting new test case and learning for both us And Netflix, to be honest as to how this stuff can work, we faced a lot of questions about if you don't have rights and uh, clips and highlights associated with it, can it really work? I think that's unambiguously being proven that it can in this context. The clock conversation is, is really landing um, and we're really hopeful that therefore we can continue to work together and experiment in some different ways both hopefully with some further football content uh, in the future in Netflix and beyond.

Speaker B: So do you feel like this is um, really a starting point both for yourselves uh, but also perhaps for for others to lean into this type of um, or particularly for someone like Netflix to lean into this type of genre going on and do you feel that this will be not just a uh, a one off World cup opportunity but something you may be in talks with about potentially extending through across other leagues and competitions?

Speaker A: We're certainly hopeful. Yeah, I think it's definitely early signs are it's working well for both sides. So we're certainly keen to continue to push in the sports direction. Uh, but equally, I mean Netflix, I think very sensibly from them strategically can see the value of podcasts. They're looking to bring more podcasts outside of sports onto their platform and hopefully we can do some more stuff there as well.

Speaker B: So there's a few different um, uh, podcast shows and others that exist in the market. I'm curious to get your view on this that obviously they get the opportunity to enhance their distribution outside of the traditional mediums of Spotify and all your records are podcast channels and of course YouTube and with the video attached to that comes as well. Um, just what's your view on the value from getting that extra visibility through uh, other distribution means? If you weren't getting say that ice check, would you still think that you could drive enough value from the sort of the marketing visibility and audience generating you would have on other platforms? If you weren't having an exclusive deal to say have a non exclusive and have this in multitudes of channels, would you be able to turn that into direct returns or do you really need that bank bankroll so to speak and that exclusivity to really make it justifiable for you on the P and L?

Speaker A: Yeah, really interesting. So it's a really interesting balance. So our Netflix deal uh, for the rest is football for example, but it's only video exclusive on Netflix. Uh, so our audio show is still going out on traditional channels. The only difference is whereas we were previously posting episodes on YouTube, uh, for the Period of the World Cup. Those are exclusive to Netflix. And look, it's a really interesting question. I mean strategically we fundamentally believe in meeting your audience where they are and we want to have as broad a distribution as possible. We don't want to have to force our audiences onto platforms they would not naturally go on. We want to meet them on the platforms that they choose. Um, so it takes a lot for those economics to stack up in that context, uh, to move away from that position of broad distribution. Um, in this instance with Netflix, we felt that the trade off was worthwhile and especially for the learnings that we're getting and the experimenting that both sides are getting, um, valuable in the future, who knows how that'll play out. I remain uh, a big advocate for uh, that broad distribution. That's certainly what we're aiming for with any type of deals we do. We're not overly keen on constraining ourselves down and limiting distribution, but we will always of course entertain and look at opportunities. Chris.

Speaker B: I mean Netflix has got a fairly solid distribution channel behind it. So I think out of anyone you're at a pretty good hands uh, there for extra visibility. But let's talk a little bit more about the commercial uh, strategy and approach there. Um, typically from what most can see around this type of business and podcast businesses generally, there's normally the traditional revenues come from advertising and maybe sponsored um, podcasts and so forth. There's also that you have launched through most of your major titles some sort of subscription proposition that's available for sort of top tier fans. Just talk us through that commercial approach and what's driving the most value for you.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely right. I know one thing I love actually about uh, coming in to the media industry and this specific niche of the media industry coming from the tech world, it's got a real interesting balance of how those revenue streams play out and something a lot of that very similar to what we've seen before with that recurring revenue dynamic of subscriptions which I think is, is super valuable but exactly to answer your question, advertising is our ah, is our core um, and advertising remains the largest revenue stream. So that really is how we monetize what I think of as casual fans. Um, we then uh, as fans get deeper into our universe. We offer them various tiers of subscription where they can get deeper. So at a basic level you can pay a small monthly fee to start to get ad, free listening, early access to content and you can get deeper to get further bonus content, more ancillary, uh, opportunities to interact with the hosts and live events, uh, around that and we've had. One of the great things that I really love about the goal hanger content is it's, yeah, it's intelligent long form conversation and that really draws people in and draws people into these subjects and these hosts. And from my perspective I think we've had remarkable success at successfully transitioning listeners and audience more broadly into those membership clubs and into that recurring subscription revenue from my perspective is the really exciting and the most valuable part of the entire revenue stack. Um, and yeah, I mean I think we announced a few months ago we've now across. What are we at five clubs, I think in total across the various pods, uh, over quarter of a million members signed up paying either monthly or annual fee, which is awesome. Uh, with bold ambitions to get even bigger than that in the future.

Speaker B: So that model with layering uh, on the subscription on top, obviously it's very synonymous with the media industry in different platforms and so forth. Have um, you got that across? Is the model pretty much rinse and repeat across all the different titles or have you only trialled it with certain products? And why, why have you done so?

Speaker A: Yeah, so we're still working through. I think, uh, definitely our ambition is that every pod we launch has that potential to have both advertising revenue and a subscription stream to it as well. I think that's definitely where we want to try and get to purely through uh, we also, we really want to do justice to the clubs though. When we put a club proposition out there and a membership proposition out there, we want it to be a fantastic fan experience. Just simply from a resource perspective. Getting through every club, uh, is taking us some time. But um, you know we started with the History Club and the Politics Club, our largest two pods and they are still the big growth engines. But also now we have a rapidly growing club around a couple of our smaller pods. The rest is entertainment which has been growing very quickly. The rest is classified. A fantastic under discussed one in the Gohanger stable has a fantastically loyal and deep uh, fan club to it. Um, as well as some of our other uh, history shows. Uh, we have Ways and Empire both also have fan clubs attached to them. Um, look, we want to get more fan clubs. Um, the rest is science, I mentioned earlier is our fastest growing pod. We really want to have a science club before too long. Um, and that definitely is very much the ambition in the model. We just have to work our way through launching uh, all these things in a goal hanger style.

Speaker B: Um, what goes into one of these shows. So in terms of the resource you're putting behind it, there's obviously the talent aspect that we all see, uh, delivered on screen. But whether it be the investment that you're putting into any given show, uh, and the resources behind it to deliver what is being delivered. Can you talk us through a bit how you look at that?

Speaker A: Yeah, sure, Yeah. I mean, again, I think it's a fascinating moment for the media industry actually, because what we're able to do with the podcast medium is strip a significant amount of that cost that would traditionally be bought in a production like this out. So the unit economics of podcasts, I just think is so powerful in that you're getting, yeah, sure, the production values are not TV, but you're getting a good 80% plus of the value for what in reality is probably 10% of the cost. Um, and that kind of arbitrage and unit economics is what I certainly really like from my seat. Um, but in terms of what goes into that 10% cost, yeah, it's a fantastic team and we're hugely lucky here to have a really talented group of young and hungry producers who really drive these things. So we have, um, production staff which, uh, depending on the size of the pod and the complexity, can vary from. Some pods are run by a single producer, uh, up to a small team, often to include researchers to really back up the talent and really provide the topics. We then have an awesome team as well of video, uh, editors and social editors who are both making sure that the show works only in the audio format, but also really optimizing the video format, which has been really important to us, uh, and then, uh, clipped up and distributed effectively on socials, which we still see as the key drive of, uh, awareness and bringing people into our world.

Speaker B: So that's it. You bring up an interesting topic there, which I think is one of these conundrums that we're seeing right across the industry and across media and sports. Is that clipping, uh, economy and clipping, the use of those short forms, obviously you get huge engagement, particularly through a lot of the different titles. Um, and I guess how are you ultimately, Are you seeing that as a funnel to the main channels? And, uh, you talked about advertising being the main revenue driver for you, um, currently. But are you able to drive direct revenue of enough value out of that visibility? And if so, what. What is that? Is it mainly programmatic, uh, revenue coming from those platforms? And what sort of scale are you talking about relative to that whole flywheel of revenue? Is it.

Speaker A: Yeah, sure. So, first of all, the Team will be sick of, sick of me budding on this. I think we're, we're undercooking what's possible there at the moment. I think the whole ecosystem around social uh, monetization is, is, is evolving rapidly and I think there's a lot more we can do there first of all. So I expect it to grow, um, for us is the first answer. Um, but look, no, in terms of how we're doing it, yeah. It is primarily at the moment relatively simplistic, programmatic advertising on the platforms until we get our check from Instagram and our check from YouTube and these things flood in directly proportional to the amount of views and the attention that we're getting on their platform. And that doesn't those checks in and of themselves pretty much pay for our social team, um, which is awesome. So just even on that basis, without thinking about uh, the additional benefits, it does watch its face. However, we are increasingly over investing beyond that because of exactly the point you make that we see it as far more than a revenue generator in of its own right. We see it as a critical part of the funnel for awareness and attention, uh, coming into our pods. So we actively want to invest in that in order to grow the shows. Because ultimately the bigger we can grow the shows, the more we can monetize them in the long form, which at least for the time being is where the better sort of revenue density as I think about it, uh, really is. Especially if you can get people right through not just consuming the long form but into your membership clubs and really engaging with the entire universe.

Speaker B: Do you see that there's any other revenue streams that maybe aren't so mature at the moment that would be areas that you could continue to grow to try and help continue to fuel the growth?

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I think, um, we've often dabbled in live events in the past and I think in some ways they're almost the ultimate expression at the end of that fan journey. And we're looking more and more at how we can do more innovative types of live events to really bring people uh, together. Because one thing that we really see and like about our membership clubs and our fan clubs, um, especially in the modern digital age, people really want to have that connection, uh, and an opportunity to really get together and, and collaborate outside of just the screen. So we really want to try those and we think there's some real interesting dynamics there. The other area where really we are really looking to expand and have invested in is in our written propositions. So a number of Our clubs now also have increasingly high quality newsletters attached to them and some really fantastic journalism going on under the hood there. Um, well worth checking out. Have a look at the politics newsletters, the history newsletters, all free to sign up for. Fantastic stuff. Um, but uh, I think that's also really interesting at the moment we're putting that out there purely as an, as an added benefit, uh, as part of the membership club. But in time I think there's some really interesting models coming out now with independent journalism. I look at what some of the more creators at the forefront are doing on Substack and how they're monetizing their work. I think there's some really interesting revenue streams. Again, it'll primarily be ad based, but revenue streams related to our written content, which I can see coming down the track and I'm hopeful can play a major role in our growth in the future as well.

Speaker B: So let's take a step back now and talk about the model. You are running it. From what I understand it's a very talent based initiative for each and every title you have in the ecosystem. Just talk us through what, what the model is that you are bringing in that talent to operate in.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I mean the talent are everything for us. These are such personality driven, talent driven shows. Uh, the goal hanger model is generally a conversation between two experts and the chemistry between those experts and what they bring really is the foundation to the whole show. So we couldn't do anything without the talent and we run the business on that basis in that effectively. Uh, the way that we run these pods looks a little bit like a joint venture between us and the talent effectively with a profit share at the end of it. So we do all we can as gohanger to commercialize and monetize the property and we bring our expertise and commercial skills to do that most effectively. And we work with the talent to grow the show such that we can really maximize that. We then keep our costs as low and as efficient as possible. And all the profit that we make in the pot goes into a pot and there's a profit split between us and the talent. So it really is a direct, uh, yeah, a really direct monetization for them as well. Um, and what they put in they really get back. Those incentives are really nicely aligned and we found that a really important and valuable part of the model which so far has worked very well to grow

Speaker B: now a lot of success to talk about and celebrate. Have there been any? I mean we've been in the company six months from now. But have there been any hurdles or challenges you guys have had to overcome, whether it be in the model or things you've learned for perhaps podcasts that haven't done so well, that have really helped shape your direction today?

Speaker A: Yeah, really interesting question. As I say, I think a lot of the challenges I've absorbed secondhand from the stories of what the guys have been through for the last few years. But, um, no, look, not every pod has been a smash hit for Gohanger. We have had a few, you know, a few smaller shows that have failed to really get off. We've had to rein back on a couple of shows. Um, but on the whole we've been incredibly lucky. So I think the challenges from my perspective, I, uh, guess twofold. One, there's all the usual challenges of handling a scaling business and maturing and growing that fast. That, uh, in and of itself, uh, from a business process perspective, is always challenging. How that shows up in my world in finance, as to how you build the effective processes in place to enable and get the business to really harm and work effectively without overburdening them with bureaucracy. Getting that balance right and navigating that is always a challenge, I think any growing business, certainly for us, um, then look more more broadly than that. I think the. From a sort of sector perspective, the thing that's been really interesting for us, and I feel we've done a good job of it, uh, is the shift to video. It's really interesting in these podcasts and even today, right, Ah, I know we're recording and this will go out, uh, as well as visual, as well as, as well as on audio. And that's critical now, I think, um, the entire industry has very clearly moved in that direction and we had to really. Well, I, again, before my time in many ways, but the team really had to upskill and jump on that really quickly, um, and really led the industry, I think, actually, in how they were so definitive about every pod, uh, every show being video and moving away from that thinking of it being a solely audio product. I mean, we remain very focused in our product that it has to work as an audio product. Um, but it does not have to be definitively audio first now and how they made that transition. Uh, I'm in awe of what the guys did there.

Speaker B: Um, so, I mean, it's an interesting question, right, because obviously one of the things I hear a lot about video, uh, LED content especially, is the economics around it. Aren't. Uh, I still are work in progress. I'd Say particularly on platforms like YouTube, are you seeing that really ramp up, particularly on those platforms? Or is it uh, much about the visibility and like almost personality building of the, the profiles of the individuals and also so you can turn that content into the clips that you use to market and promote? Or are you seeing the economics now being strong enough where it's a needle mover for you?

Speaker A: Yeah, a little bit of both. And there's no doubt it's well known across the industry the ability to monetize on YouTube is not as great at the moment as our traditional channels. Um, and we're still working through that, working out how we can get more monetization out of that particular channel. But it's the fastest growing. I don't think it will come as a surprise that that's our fastest growing channel for finding new audiences and for growing the shows. I mean YouTube used to be sort of even not long before I started it was a single digits percentage of our total, uh, audience, whereas now it's rapidly approaching 25, 30%. So that growth, we're seeing growth across all channels, which is lovely, but we are seeing outsized growth across YouTube as a platform and a channel which is really exciting. So although yeah, you're under monetization is again that revenue density idea, it's not quite there to the same extent as you YouTube at the moment. We're working hard to fix, uh, that with our friends and partners at YouTube and I think that we're, we're definitely making some headway, which is great because I still, I think it's only going to continue in that direction. I think video is more and more important. Um, and I think that that's where the audiences are and ultimately you follow the audiences first and then you figure out the monetization later.

Speaker B: Um, I want to move on to Gohanger Ventures, which I think is a really interesting, um, new layer to the business. But just quickly on the advertising because if you talk about being where the audiences are, and you said advertising is one of the major revenue drivers for you, just give us a sense of what roughly that dynamic looks like between the programmatic side and the more tailored sponsored content direct advertising deals. Because it seems to me from what I hear from other people in this space, that programmatic does a job and does drive a good chunk of revenue when you've got the scale there. But if you really want to get needle moving, impact uh, revenue wise, you have to do those deals internally. Sorry, internally, direct with brands. How, how are you seeing that?

Speaker A: Yeah, completely, you're spot on. So absolutely programmatic, does lay a foundation for us and is a base. But the majority of our ad revenue and what we're really focused in on, or we've built an entire internal team around is selling those direct brand partnerships because especially in the podcast medium, it's so powerful when you have the advocacy of a trusted host. It works so effectively for brands. We've got some fantastic case studies of how that's really moved the needle for a number of our partners. Um, and that's really what our entire internal sales focus is on. It's about uh, delivering those brand partnerships for uh, the benefit of both sides and really maximizing them. So we're going, we go all in on those.

Speaker B: How have you seen that from coming in out of side of the media industry? I'm always a bit fascinated how people see that because for me it feels a little bit still very old school in the process that goes behind doing those types of partnerships. Um, how have you seen that coming in? Has it been a, uh, surprise or is it actually more I guess scientific these days than perhaps what it's made out to be in certain instances?

Speaker A: No, I think it's relatively scientific. I mean we really look to try and build long term partnerships. Uh, again I've done a number of different tech roles over the last 10 years but there's definitely, they don't look that different from B2B SaaS type contracts and certain dynamics about how the real value is in properly uh, understanding your partner, working out how you can create real women scenarios and working with them effectively to deliver the best uh, proposition, the best value that you can. It's uh, you know, and our guys do a great job of going out and making connections across the UK and increasingly global uh, industry with both uh, agencies and with brands direct and um, we've got some really exciting partners that we're working with.

Speaker B: Um, so final question on this is just what typically is the, the out the what uh, are they buying in terms of the deliver, delivery you're giving them? Is it typically just brand visibility within the pod, the pods themselves, or are you having to do certain other things that are typically, that are uh, driving up the value of those deals?

Speaker A: Yeah, again hats off to our commercial team. They really are uh, pushing the boundaries on this and doing some really cool innovative stuff. I think so. It's absolutely broader than simply the visibility on the pods. So every media plan varies but the ones at the cutting edge of what the guys are delivering at the moment are really integrated, holistic Plans of it. So not only do you get the host reads and the overt awareness push on the pod itself, increasingly there's tie ins to socials, there's bespoke social segments that are going out specifically where the hosts are putting brands together. Uh, increasingly for some of our big brands, we're actually doing live sort of internal corporate events with our talent, um, I think a couple of our details. But um, yeah, the other week a couple of our talent went off to the HQ of one of our big major global uh, brands and did a whole internal piece there which went down really well and I think provided great value for both, both sides. So yeah, there's a lot more that goes into it now than simply a uh, host red in the mid roll of a show.

Speaker B: No doubt. So let's talk a little bit about the Gohanger Ventures, uh, basically an accelerator you guys have launched. Talk a bit about why you've done that and what's the hope and the outcome from it.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. So yeah, something close to my heart.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Having spent the last decade in venture backed businesses, um, suddenly find myself with the ability to be a vc. How exciting. Uh, but no, it's trying to do a couple of things for us really. One, I mean we really want to give back to the ecosystem and um, we think that the ecosystem's been great for us and the more we can help and more we can invest, the better we can build this whole new innovative edge around podcasting. Uh, so yeah, we really want to be a part of that. But more specifically and tactically for us, I guess what we're really looking for is we want to find that next generation of creators and both our accelerator program and to some extent the Gohanga ventures that we're doing at this stage, but both tie into this, it's about finding where that young talent coming through, doing innovative things on the edge, uh, of what's possible, uh, are and really helping and supporting them to grow them now with either in their own right or hopefully they may be able to come into the goal hanger stable more tightly in due course. Um, but things that are ah, in what we've been really looking at is investments in creators who are very much aligned with where our proposition is at the moment, where our core subjects are and really encouraging them and helping them uh, to come through and hopefully we can give them a lot in terms of a leg up and the support and the lessons learned. But equally they're teaching us a lot in terms of uh, what they're doing. And how they're thinking about things at that cutting edge. Um, so that's very much one side of it. The other thing that we are doing with Gohang Adventures, which is interesting, which we haven't really publicly announced yet, but we're uh, beginning to spin up with our first few deals is ah, we are also using that as a mechanism to uh, do media for equity deals. So for young up and coming brands, consumer brands who wouldn't uh, necessarily have the cash on hand to grow awareness and advertise on podcasts, um, if they are interested in uh, us coming along and taking a small equity stake in their business in exchange for that, that media plan, we're actively looking at those and we have our first couple of deals coming through now which is super exciting. So a way for us to, well from my perspective at least to use our inventory as efficiently as possible and uh, to really support the broader ecosystem and maximize the value that we can create from the inventory that we have.

Speaker B: So outside of the equity style, uh, relationships, what else are they getting? Obviously you've got expertise in house and support you can give from a how to get going with these types of things and how to potentially get them up and running with um, expertise and whatnot. Uh, what else are they getting? Is there a financial element or is it basically the sweat equity side that you're bringing to the table? What's the mix there?

Speaker A: Yeah, there's two flavors. So um, there's a subtle difference. Our accelerator program which is not equity based there we're giving that's primarily come into the office and have a mentor and that proactive, really practical support. And then for slightly more established brands, the first one we've done there, the best example of this is Ah, a YouTube business, uh, creative business around economics called Invisible Hand. There we've actually put cash in um, for an equity stake. So they get all the benefits of not only coming uh, in and being able to uh, get gather the expertise and the mentorship, they also now are plumbed into our commercial network. So we are actively going to be selling, selling uh, the ads and selling the memberships for them to really turbocharge what they can do there and so they don't have to worry and go through the pain of not only delivering great content but setting up an entire commercial operation. So we're doing that for them. Uh, and as I say they've got the equity investment which uh, in terms of a small cash stake which uh, they're putting to good use hiring folks at the moment into their Organization, which is awesome to see.

Speaker B: Good stuff. So one of the things that, um, goal hanger and indeed rest his football trialed was the acquisition of some highlights and clip rights for. For content around La Liga in the Premier League. Do you, firstly, what's the sort of verdict on. On that approach and investing into those rights? Is it worth the investment, the time and effort, or is it something that you've worked out to nice to have, but you don't need it to really complete the show. And obviously we've talked about, uh, the rest is football in the World cup side of things. You've already kind of probably, uh, taste of that already.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So, hey, I think the honest answer is the jury is still out. Um, it's been fascinating. The two that you referenced there are exactly right. So we had legal rights, which we specifically put through, uh, a pod. And um, that was certainly useful. It gained an audience, which was great. And economically, when I look at my P and L, it certainly washed its face, which was great to see. Um, but I think we still want to experiment with that some more. We don't feel like we quite optimized exactly the value that we could get out of that because the. That rest is football audience. With La Liga, it was still actually at that stage when we had those highlights on. It was still audio, uh, primarily audio or audio focused. And then naturally highlights do a very different job for your videos. They do audio. But now that that world is transitioning and post Netflix as well, we've got more and more, more and more of our audience coming into that video ecosystem. I think it's going to be really interesting to see where the next iteration of those La Liga highlights go and how that informs the show. The other one, the other variety that you referenced, which I think actually has been, from my perspective, not ambiguous success and I think really interesting. Some of my favorite football content actually is that we've had the historic Premier League rights, which has led to the guys doing a series called them the Premier League, the Premier League Heroes and the moments that made us. And it basically is the three. I don't know if you had a chance to see any of these, but it's the. It's our three guys sat around the table on their sofa reviewing some of the highlights from some fantastic careers. There's a. There's a brilliant episode on, um, you know, on Ronaldo, and there's, uh, various other sort of folks in the 90s and uh, early 2000s leveraging those. And I mean, I think they're really they're both really great content that I've enjoyed, but also when we look at the job they're doing, they are actually gaining a whole new audience outside of our core traditional wrestlers football audience, particularly on YouTube, um, in that we have an interesting balance in our shows between shows like the Rest Is Football, the Rest Is Politics, where really the majority of it is about recent content and it's very much tied into the news cycle and what's going on, um, which is a different dynamic. Some of our other shows, such as History, which naturally have more of an evergreen content feel to it, you know, you can go in and have a listen to a lecture on historical piece, uh, at any stage. Those football documentaries in inverted commas are, uh, doing exactly that with the Rest Is Football, uh, and are finding a really interesting, ever growing and evergreen audience, particularly on YouTube, um, which is great. So we want to continue to innovate there and continue to see how we can leverage that even further.

Speaker B: Uh, I think just a warning for all those, uh, leagues out there thinking they've got a new opportunity to make loads of money out of Highlights. Just remember you're also publishing it yourselves on all your other channels and so are users as well. So don't uh, get too excited out there. If you're thinking now Highlights is going to be a new massive revenue stream, you've got to start. Are, uh, whining back some of your activities, uh, already couldn't agree more.

Speaker A: But it's good for everyone. Ultimately they put that those things have more distribution. I think it pulls more people into the ecosystem because as you say, the other really interesting point on this for me is that I think the Netflix show is proving this and the Rest Is Football more broadly. You don't necessarily need, uh, the clips and the highlights to still have a successful show. The conversation around these moments now is equally as important and equally as valuable.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So look, a lot going on. As you've said, you've got the, the World cup happening right now for Rest Is Football and all these other different titles. You've got this new venture going on to, uh, invest into other, uh, up and coming, um, podcast platforms and channels. Where, where's the future looking like? Is it, Are you going to be a podcast network? Is it a D2C business? Is it just going to keep scaling the same types of properties? Where are you going to be in five years from now? What's the plan? Plan?

Speaker A: Yeah. Hey, for sure. Well, let's see. Right at the moment, everyone's just trying to hold on to the rocket ship as it's, as it races forward, which is always a fun place to be. But no, look, I think the plan fundamentally is to keep doing what we're doing and keep innovating, keep pushing the boundaries and really try and take this new model that we developed as far as we possibly can. So in reality, I think that we hope that means more hit shows. We're going to continue to both mine the verticals and the topics that we're in at the moment, as well as hopefully open up new areas of conversation with the same basic templates of informed, uh, intellectual conversation. We think there's a real big audience for that across a number of, A number of areas. We're going to continue to push into video. We also want to look to get more geographically dispersed and we're very lucky. We have a very global audience. But the most recent shows we've done, again, another reason I referenced science earlier, one of the reasons I love that show so much, uh, that's got our largest proportion of any show with an audience in the us. So continuing to look at shows like that that have not just a UK appeal, but really a global appeal to open up, uh, but global ad markets, global fandoms, that's very much where we're hoping to go. Um, and as you say, the other part to it is to go deeper on that subscription element and on that fandom element and offer more, better value, higher quality and bring more and more people into that ecosystem.

Speaker B: Whilst I'm going to wrap up on this point, I think, but, uh, whilst many across the wider media and sports landscape are finding the economics around media and producing content tricky to navigate, particularly when there's more and more content that being produced than ever in the marketplace. Uh, and, uh, competitors to sports are, um, popping out from all different angles and directions. Role, you know, the role of AI, etc, also playing a role. Would you say that you're seeing, despite all of that, the growth, uh, of ROI on the content you are producing, or are you finding that you are having to produce more to get the requisite return to keep pushing these things out? Because you talked about you're creating more clips and content now off the back of the show and are you needing to put more out there to get more value back, or are you actually seeing it just perform better because the content's ultimately a better quality than it was a year ago?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's super interesting. I think there's a bit of both, but fundamentally we're about quality. Ah. And we believe in that Quality and I think again, um, personal hypothesis of where the market is heading. Let's, let's see if it plays out this way. But you referenced the impact of AI. I mean, I think it's really interesting. You've got this whole narrative of people's attention spans are reducing and it's all short form and there's a bombardment of AI slot. But I mean we're finding that audiences are uh, more sophisticated than they get credit for in those kind of narratives. And actually if you can put high quality, intelligent long form content out there, there is a significant audience for that. Um, I mean, you know our, one of the metrics that we track most closely, uh, which we think is the best proxy for quality is. Well, um, on YouTube they call it average view duration. Uh, we're increasingly calling it average time spent. But this idea of how much time on average are people spending with an individual piece of long form content? And we're seeing that increase, which is awesome. Which for me is saying two things. One, it's a great marker and respect to the team because it's a direct correlation with the quality they're putting out there. They're improving quality. That's driving that increase in our average watch time. But at the same time I think it also speaks to how people are consuming this stuff and what they're actually looking for. Um, there's a place for doom scrolling and mindless, uh, short form clips for sure. But also I think that in increasingly sophisticated media diets that folks have, they are yearning for high quality long form content and we're here to provide it.

Speaker B: Well, as he said at the start of the show, Andy's joining us at the SportsPro Investment Summit next month on July 21st. So join us if you're interested in what's happening in the investment space or whether it's around sports or sports media or just around sports more generally. But Annie, been great to have you on the show and hearing a little bit more about what you're doing at Goal Hanger and looking forward to seeing what's next.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks very much Nick, really appreciate it. Lovely to speak to you.