Sink or Swim: Why Standing Still is No Longer a Strategy for B2B Marketers with Pavneet Syan

Speaker A: If you don't swim, you'll end up sinking. And I think there is that level of urgency that's required to stay current, to keep learning and to stay at the forefront of what you're doing. So it is one of those times where if you aren't experimenting or if you're not trying or if you're not putting it into practice, then it really will start to show and not now. It will start to show in six months, one year, 18 months down the line.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Spotlight on Marketing brought to you by Armstrong Lloyd, headhunters in the B2B marketing space. I'm your host, Karen Lloyd and um, today's episode we're going to be exploring one most challenging aspects of modern marketing leadership change. That driving transformation in organisations where it isn't just about adopting new tools but fundamentally reimagining how business business gets done. And today I'm joined by Pavnit Saiyan, who is currently a marketing director for Capita in their AI organization and she's really passionate about driving transom of change for business growth. So if you're struggling to bring teams along on a transformation journey or perhaps resistance is high to change or there is stakeholder dynamics that are very complex and the pace of change just feels relentless. This one's for you. Welcome Pavneet.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me. Very excited for our conversation.

Speaker B: No, so am I. And do you know what? I think this is a really great time to talk about change because we're seeing lots of change in marketing currently with AI and particularly as you work in the AI division but also so many companies are challenged in a really tough macroeconomic climate. What's driven you in your decision at the moment? Because you're uh, right in the midst of a change project and a new function in a major transforming organization. So what's driven you to take that decision to do that project?

Speaker A: Oh, it is definitely multifaceted, I think. So I would say firstly is about leadership. So I have joined an organization that is being led by a fearless leader, uh, and an amazing person. So that was one of the big drivers that uh, appealed to me firstly. And then secondly from a career point of view to be able to really use this role as an outlet in a way because there is so much noise I guess in the market like you say, and it's like right in the. We're right in the thick of it where it's transformation and to be able to facilitate change and to be able to put my experience into practice is actually a great way to feel like, this is an outlet to be able to encompass all that I've learned so far, and then to be able to be at a really fast pace again, but in a different environment, in a different way. Organization in a slightly different industry. So I would say, yeah, like, those are the few drivers in making that decision. So super fortunate to be able to. To be able to put that to practice.

Speaker B: Fantastic. And it's interesting what you said about joining a great leader, because as we say, it's said over the times that some people, they don't join companies, they join the leadership, don't they? And the people, and that really makes a difference. So it's good that you have a strong leader to work with.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that then also has this multiplier effect throughout the organization. So, like myself, there are other individuals that have joined for similar reasons and to be able to really put their skills into practice as well. So it's not just me, and it's great to be a part of that growth engine that's currently there.

Speaker B: Um, what's the fundamental sort of driver of change, do you think, at the moment, whether your organization or other organizations? What's driving the need for change at the moment?

Speaker A: Oh, I mean, it's a tough one, because where we're at right now at this point in time in the industry, if you don't swim, you'll end up sinking. And I think there is that level of urgency that's required to stay current, to keep learning, and to stay at the forefront of what you're doing. So it is one of those times where if you aren't experimenting or if you're not trying, or if you're not putting it into practice, then it really will start to show, and not now, it will start to show in six months, one year, 18 months down the line. So I think rather than it being a, uh, response to the market, I think it's just actually about making sure that your business stays afloat and make sure that we are staying current for the climate that is to come.

Speaker B: And do you think, is it AI that's causing that, or is it the sort of downturn and macroeconomic factors, would you say?

Speaker A: It's an interesting question, because I think everyone runs to the fact that it's AI first. And I think that's a huge catalyst in all of this, for sure. I don't want to dismiss it at all. I think there's no denying that there is a huge focus on making sure that everything is faster, better, more efficient. And so I think just with the macroeconomic climate that it was prior to the AI, I guess Buzz and the revolution that it's being called, it's definitely, I guess, both of them combined. But I think there's also this other fear in people. Right. And I don't want to use that word, but there is that notion and that sort of negative connotation around if you don't learn AI, then you're starting on a back foot. But actually I think it's about really responding to market changes and strategy and making sure that we're equipped for the long run.

Speaker B: Yeah, because AI is in so many different aspects as well, isn't it? I mean, there's people going on and using Claude and using ChatGPT to ask questions instead of Google. But then AI can be also be embedded in so many other ways in a business. And I don't know, is that what you're. You're sort of approaching at the moment more to weigh the business infrastructure with AI or just people using it?

Speaker A: Yeah, both actually. So in my role currently, it's all about ensuring that our products that we are launching as a business have been enhanced and are developed using AI and also for our partners to make sure that we are partnering with the best in, in in the industry to ensure that we're pushing the latest and the greatest out to our customers. And I think in order to do that, it's really important that we then empower all our employees and colleagues to be able to think like what our customers will need. Because right now we're at a place where sometimes you don't actually know the art of the possible and everyone's learning as they're going. Right. So myself included, my leaders included, and I don't think any one person is the true expert right now because we are moving at such a pace and learning as we're going, building as we're flying. And so I think it's super important for us to keep that in mind as we facilitate all of this change and so on.

Speaker B: So how do you approach to leading change? And you've always worked in very established organizations, so they've always got their processes. So how do you do that where the processes and mindsets are really deeply embedded?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny because I feel like challenging the status quo is like a very like innate quality. So yes, processes are in place and tooling is in place. But I think what's been great, especially in the Martech landscape, is how you can use your tools and manipulate them so that it actually is being maximized. In terms of usage. So whether that's marketing automation or the website or any sort of CMS platforms. And I think making sure that you can understand the technology you're using or the platforms and their capabilities, but then taking people along the journey at the same time. So really ensuring that people understand the mission and the bigger picture and to also be receptive to change and be a sponge in a way. I think that's really like an important mindset to have so that you're not sort of like deterring potential opportunities. You're actually absorbing what people need, businesses need, and in m bringing your colleagues along with you. So I think change is important, but I think adaptability in the changes is really key as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because different people have different philosophies to change, don't they? So some is like. Some people will be like, well, this is what we're doing, just get on with it. And others are showing by doing and then educating others. So what's your sort of philosophy on balancing that sort of need for pace and the urgency of bringing them on the journey?

Speaker A: I would say that there is like a sweet spot to find always. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And that's quite, I guess, like, ironic, right in just in what I'm saying, because we're trying to move at pace, but at the same time we are building for longevity. So trying to find the sweet spot there, it can be quite difficult because when you're new into a business or you're working with people that have their own, I guess, approaches like you mentioned, then it's really important to also meet people where they are and then find a common goal to make sure that everyone is working towards that same goal and getting the boat to go faster, essentially. And I think that only happens by taking a step back, understanding the needs of the business, understanding where the colleagues are at and making sure that there is that common goal and then working backwards. I think if everyone's got that mutual understanding and really understands what their roles and responsibilities are within that larger ecosystem, then everyone feels naturally a little bit more motivated and builds that momentum for the whole team.

Speaker B: So do you have like a framework or sort of methodology on how you maybe manage the eager adopters versus the strong resistors in that sort of ecosystem.

Speaker A: So I wouldn't say a framework as such, but I feel like it's always like human first. I feel like it's really important to understand the people you work with and how their approach can either affect or, you know, perhaps deter you away from the common goals. And it's really important to ensure that you understand the people you work with so that the mission stays the same. And I think that going back to the book, making the book go faster, for me that's really important because that only happens if everybody's on board and everybody understands the common goals. So I would say it's really understanding people first and then getting them on the journey and making that happen.

Speaker B: How do you understand the people, would you say, like doing a workshop with them, like going out for a coffee, having like a team meeting? What sort of tools or tactics would you do?

Speaker A: All of the above, I would say I think it's really important to understand people on a human level, what their motivations are, where they see themselves in the bigger picture as well. And you can do that in different mediums. Obviously everybody has their own different styles. I personally like in person interactions. I also really like to know what people do outside of work and hobbies and interests and connect on a human level. I think that's really important for me personally. So that could entail, yes, maybe going for a coffee, maybe spending a bit more time in the office, doing some hands on workshops perhaps. So I think that's super important in all of the noise that, that we're in.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I had someone recently on, um, one of my podcasts who talked about change in changing a brand and she basically said if people don't like it, that she just kind of ignores those people and doesn't try to get them to change at all. She just leaves them and focuses on the people that are willing to change. I don't know if you, if that's something you've experienced or what you would agree with that.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, to a degree, I'm um, of the thing, King, that it's really important to bring people along the journey. But at the same time, if there is that resistance and that consistent reluctance, then it is hard to move the needle and you can't win at every mission. It is just, you can put your best foot forward and you want to do your best and make sure that you bring people along the journey. But I think there is the inevitable as well. So you have to at some point make that decision and actually just understand and meet people where they're at. So if they're unable to come on board, then that's a choice in itself. And so, yeah, to a degree I do get, I do agree with that.

Speaker B: And what sort of structural cultural shifts could be most critical when you're Helping teams move forward.

Speaker A: I think it's really important for leadership to communicate what the overall mission is top down. And I think that is quite critical to make sure that people are understanding the strategy on an ongoing basis and really understanding how they fit in. So that could be training, that could be workshops facilitated by different people in the business so that everyone is seeing different levels and different personalities as well. And then that way they also see where their place is in the business. I think it's super, super key and that in itself is allowing people to come onto the journey and then making the choice if they want to jump on board or not. Right. And I think that sort of transparency and clarity, if we're able to deliver that, then it works really well.

Speaker B: So how do you stay ahead of these rapid innovation cycles while ensuring your organization doesn't move so fast that we just lose people and they start going because they're not happy that there's change and you lose talent?

Speaker A: I think on a personal level, how, uh, to stay ahead is a difficult one. You know, I'm um, like I said, we're building while we're flying in a way because the pace of innovation right now is super rapid. I think just bearing in mind like I started my career in 2012, 2013 and since then it's been leaps and bounds of changes, but not at the pace at which we're going right now. So I, for even for me it's like relatively quite fast. Having said that, I think with that pace comes this, I guess that, that resilience that needs to be built and the agility. So being in technology companies and in that, those kind of environments, agility is super important. So responding to change and being on top of it, you have to just make the choices of like where you want to focus your energy and to make sure that you're keeping apprised of the latest and the greatest. But what does that mean for your role? And then moving quite at pace on making those learnings meaningful to your role? I think that's quite key as well.

Speaker B: Uh, so what's the challenge in articulating a really clear vision around emerging technology like AI or in the past, it would be automation that resonates both technical and non technical stakeholders. How do you do that?

Speaker A: That is a great question because of course we are in a environment and just generally across all companies we're on a spectrum of knowledge. Right. So some may have a little bit more knowledge of tools and platforms and others not so much. So it's really important to start at the basics, I would say, and not shy away from not knowing the foundations. I think everyone is in a very similar position here. We're all sort of starting from. From the bottom in a way. Like, it's stay one. It's, you know, we just need to start at the same baseline and then keep ourselves honest on how to grow that knowledge and to create some steps for our employees and colleagues and teams to make sure that there is a staggered approach to this. And of course, everyone's got different learning styles, but if we create a structure for teams and organizations so that there is a pathway towards learning and towards a specific standard or a bar, then it means that there is a bit more consistency and everyone can follow similar steps. Of course, that doesn't take anything away from all of the other learnings and all of the other knowledge that exists, you know, in the wild out there. But I think having that structured approach and making sure that that pathway is really clear, then I feel like everybody is, has got a path to follow and there is a bit more direction and communication is super key in that, to make sure that the teams are apprised of those details. And it's creating that knowledge base for our teams. Yeah, I think it's super key there.

Speaker B: And how do you create a knowledge base? Do you record it? Is it just in people's heads? If they leave, how does it happen?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great one because with all the noise of all the platforms that we have and all the tooling, there are new ideas every day. So there's a new tool for everything every day. Especially now we've got tools that create like podcasts from just, you know, a paragraph, you can have an article that then creates videos, et cetera. So I would say that right now it's a case of making sure that we are ensuring that the facts are really captured and, uh, to make sure that it's then communicated, you know, a wide scale and then from there on enabling our colleagues to use the tools and platforms to then curate new assets and fact sheets and so on from that initial one. So it's really important to find, provide that baseline of what the source of truth is, and then using platforms and tools to introduce into the business, perhaps, and to allow for that creative freedom.

Speaker B: Yeah, fantastic. A, uh, variety, you know, a variety of different things and, you know, just so you don't lose that information if someone leaves as well. I can imagine. So, yeah, really good sort of structure there. So can you share an example of how you fundamentally reimagined traditional business approach in response to the market shifts that are currently happening?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. In fact at uh Capita right now we are becoming an AI first bpo and in doing so we're introducing some new frameworks and that is to really ensure that we are putting our customer at the heart of every decision that we're making. And actually it's shaping the strategy and the direction of the business and really understanding the customer needs. So making sure that we are equipped to respond to our customers market needs as well and then their customers needs. So being able to introduce the right technology with our technology partnerships and then to be able to implement those changes for the betterment of our customers outcomes and that is a huge driver and to be able to have that direction is super key at this point in time because it means that we are equipping ourselves as a business with the right partnerships and the technology and then to be able to really drive change for our customers and their customers. So that could be across our citizen experiences and it could be across our contact centers solutions as well. So it is a, it's a great time at the moment to be able to facilitate change and to bring people or bring technology partners into the picture as well so that we are collectively being able to drive fundamental changes.

Speaker B: Brilliant. So it's across all products. And what does AI first mean?

Speaker A: An AI first BPO means that we are using the latest and greatest technology to ensure that our stack, our products and our services and our catalog is enhanced by AI technology. And that is really listening to our customers needs and to be able to make sure that layer of technology is being added in and our products and services are being enhanced using the latest technologies.

Speaker B: That's brilliant. And has this been received well by people so far?

Speaker A: Uh, it's a mixed bag to be honest. So when you say people, I guess that's both like internally and externally. I would say that generally speaking it's what our customers are demanding. Our customers are more delighted with our capabilities. Now as a traditional bpo, we are now making sure that we are enhancing our products and our services to meet our customers where they are at, but also to show them uh, the art of the possible so that we're able to really drive some, some great outcomes for our customers and their customers.

Speaker B: And what does it, what do you mean when you say vpo?

Speaker A: A BPO is a business process outsourcer and Capita is. Yeah, essentially a bpo.

Speaker B: Brilliant. And so in the past it would have been a business processor, would have been with other people, wouldn't it? So you know, people, it would have been human beings just doing it. Instead of being centralized into an organization, you'd be doing it. So now you're leading it with technology as well to make it more efficient for companies as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I think the people are still at the heart of the business is just ensuring that we are equipped with the right technologies, both internally and then for our customers to be able to enable both our colleagues and our customers with the technology and again, meeting them where they are. So our technology stack that we have is actually to serve our customers better.

Speaker B: Fantastic. So it's driving that real change from technology in a very complex organization as well. Capita, isn't it? So how long do you think the change to embed this change will be?

Speaker A: Oh, that's a good question. I think change is happening right now. We're right in the thick of it. I think it's not one that's ever going to be complete or done because just at the pace at which technology is evolving, it's going to always be an evolution. So it's about understanding the real problem areas that you're trying to address and what's the right solution for that problem and to get to your desired outcome.

Speaker B: We're getting close to the end now. Is there anything else I haven't asked you that you'd like to cover today?

Speaker A: I. I think it's just really important to have people being brought along the journey. I think that's really important to me as a person, but also in this climate, to ensure that people are feeling included and that everyone is in a similar boat. I think that is probably the one thing I will say that everyone is in a similar situation. We're all learning. And I think that learning muscle needs to be exercised.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Absolutely. Keep learning muscle going, everybody. Well, thank you first of all, for coming. Pavi, it's been absolutely wonderful. Thank you. It's been a really insightful conversation today.

Speaker A: Thanks, Karen. Um, really appreciate it.

Speaker B: So you guys keep with that learning muscle, and thank you very much for listening. I hope you've enjoyed diving into how leading transformation is not just about strategy and directives. It's about navigating resistance with patience and. And bringing people along the journey. With the right balance of authority and grace, you can have change that really does stick. So as well as being a podcast host, I am also a passionate marketeer myself. I'm also a headhunter and the managing director of Armstrong Lloyd sales and marketing search firm. So if you're looking to grow your team and you'd like a conversation about what the current market looks like, please do drop me an email at Karen Armstrong Lloyd.co.uk or I'd love to hear from you, but in the meantime, keep shining the spotlight on marketing. Thank you.