Stewarding Digital Youth-Led Movements

Narrator: Sa.

Lydia Cao: Welcome back to Silver Lining for Learning. I am Lydia Cao and this is episode 273. Today I'm joined by my wonderful co host, Professor Curtis Bonk from Indiana University, Professor Punya Mishra from Arizona State University and Professor Didi from Harvard University. And uh, today we're going to Peru. I know Silver Lining for Learning has traveled around the world and today's destination is Peru, where something transformative is quietly happening there. Over 6,000 young people ages 13 to 17 are running their own movement from mental health advocacy to financial education to stem, um, not as a school project, not as a resume padding, but as a legitimate steward to their own communities. So, so how do they build that, um, how do they pass tokenism, um, pass student voice as a buzzword and create actual self sustaining ecosystems, uh, where the young people themselves actually lead. So to unpack this, uh, we are joined by three wonderful guests who are living and breathing this work. So Astrid Abuhar, um, she is an Peru's alumna now at Brown University, uh, who is um, keeping, who is working towards keeping Peruvian talent rooted in Peru and stopping the brain drain. And Fiorella Chonga who is leading uh, leadership campaigns in rural schools while studying history and uh, cultural management in pictures. And um, Franco Mosso Coben, co founder of Encena Peru and currently a doctoral researcher at Oise University of Toronto. So today's conversation is about solidarity over competition, purpose over prestige, and what education could look like if we actually trust uh, young people with it. So without further ado, let's welcome our guests and uh, I will open the floor up to our guests to briefly introduce who you are to our audience as well as how did you uh, end up in this space and joining this uh, youth led movement and what you are currently working on. So anyone feel free to jump in again, people are shy. So what do I just uh, start with the person I see first on the screen? Uh, Astrid, would you like to start?

Astrid Abuhar: Yeah, perfect. Uh, well, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me. I am actually so honored to be here with so many people that are working towards a more equitable world and based in it on education. Um, well, as you said, Lydia, um, I'm Astrid Al Bujarvias. I go to Brown University. I'm studying economics with applied mathematics and international Public affairs. Um, most of my work has a lot to do with development in Latin America. And just as most of you believe, I think that the cornerstone is education and getting to give enough agency to youth and to young people. To know what they want to do with their life. Um, well, I am definitely a product of what Franco brought, uh, to Peru through the um, Teach for All network, which is in Senaparu. Um, I entered in Peru very long ago. I think it was in 2022 or 20, um, when I was very sad about, um, finishing high school, not knowing what to do right after, um, and of course having like, certain like um, financial constraints that I couldn't really afford university. Public universities in Peru are definitely underserved. They do not have enough spots for everyone. Um, and I was pretty much lost until somewhere there, scrolling on Instagram, I found in um, Senhora Peru. I realized that they had a huge platform where they would teach, um, young students. Like, hey, this is what leadership looks like. This is um, what you can do in your community. And I feel like the main, main thing that like led me to the work I do today is that, um, the main thing that they taught me is that I don't need to be an adult to do anything. I don't need to have a degree. I don't need to like, wait tons of years until I have all the degrees and all the knowledge to actually do some change in my community. Um, so here I am now so many years after, um, having had the guide of a lot of people in the community of Peru, mainly that like, helped me to develop all the projects that I had and like, then, you know, just like making it a reality, um, passing tokenism, not because I want it in my resume, but because I generally want to change and I got to see change thanks to the community. Right. Um, so yeah, right now I'm working on like, trying to see how we can actually develop Latin America, how we can change Peru, um, and make it a more inclusive environment where young people can actually thrive. So that's a little bit about me. Um, but I would love to hear about Fiorella because she was also with me and we were in the same program actually when we entered in Senha Peru. And she has an amazing work, so give it up to her.

Fiorella Chonga: Ah, thank you so much. Uh, it was really exciting to see you again because I really, really, uh, admire your. And yeah, I'm excited to, excited to be here. Ah, well, who I am? Who am I? Ah, who I am? Sorry. Ah, well, um, I'm right now, I'm 19 years old and I'm, I'm a student of history and cultural management. But I have, I have, I have had different experiences and different, um, in different organizations. Ah, one of them is Ticari and Ticari empowers local communities to um. Connect with the problems of their community. Ah for example a problem ah that is located in Lago Titicaca is contamination. So they invite to students um to be conscious about that problem and how. What solutions could they give to this problem. So I was part of that project of that organization and I was also part of um leadership campaigns in rural schools uh uh. Located in rural zones. And here it was a uh. Very very great experience because it's also connected with my. With my history because I'm um. I. I'm from the rural um area Actually actually from. I'm from. From a rural rural area. Ah so um. M. One of my. My purposes is to ah. To uh. To um. Communicate this ah opportunities to empower students to believe in theirselves because uh. Sometimes um. We don't create don't. We don't believe in ourselves. And it's something that um uh. Don't don't. It's something that really don't. It's like um. Obstacle to not give or all our potential. So ah. I really was really connected with. With this project and also well um. I actually am studying um history and cultural management. So I also seen how the museum can. Museums can transform um communities. And that's M1 different things that I'm. I'm working. I I have done. But also how I uh. How I um. Connect with. How did I discover. And it was in for. For grade of secondary. And um. So the questions uh started to appear like who I am, what do I want to do uh or how I visualize in a few few years. And it was really overwhelming and I didn't know uh how to manage how to this uh emotions. So for that reason first I I entered to. To Instagram. I was um. I was scrolling and I saw. I saw that the opportunity and I thought well I want to get to know myself more. But. And that's how I started actually. I applied to Times doing Senior Peru and the first. The first one I was rejected but the next I was. I was accepted because my first application uh. It was I consider more like uh. Superficial because um. I only did it because I wanted to uh have like an extracurricular uh activity because my dream was to study abroad. So I watch it only like that. But then I entered another program clickentrepares. That is also related with actually and there I I started to. To getting to know m myself better and better. And so that's how I I went much deeper into Myself And, And I, I applied for a second time to. To the short program. And this time I was. I uh, was um, accepted. And it was also because I started to go deeper into that questions that um, started to appear.

Lydia Cao: So.

Fiorella Chonga: Yeah. And that's part of my history with.

Lydia Cao: Thank you Fiorella and um, Franco.

Franco Mosso Coben: Um, well, thank you. Thank you for hosting us. Uh, first of all, I think my journey perhaps chronologically starts a little bit before Fields and Astrid. I'd say that the idea of um, of young people leading, Leading today as opposed to in waiting for the future, um, which is something that people say a lot. I started. I started listening. Youth are the future. Kids are the future. And um, I lived. I think that it was an idea that grew for about maybe 10 years before some ideas brew, some ideas just you hear about them over and over. And uh, it takes several tries or events for them to continue to grow. Um, I must say that my own education was. I received the kind of education, the prototypical education where um, I don't decide anything education is being done to me. Um, and So I had 22 years of that education through school and university. Um, and as an adult, um, I guess at some point while we were starting our work in Peru with Encena Peru, I worked for about 15 years at the service of my country there.

Lydia Cao: Um,

Franco Mosso Coben: it came a moment where I started to ask myself, how did they see me during all those years, uh, when I was in those classrooms? How were the adults seeing me? What did I mean in their minds when I was in those learning spaces? And at the same time, in 2012, almost 10 years before we started this work, it was the first time that students mobilized me with their actions, my imagination or what I thought was possible. Actually Kurt, in Arequipa, uh, that you said that you visited, um, a few years ago. It was the first time that I heard students from sixth grade, um, taking their learning. They had done a campaign of fundraising, uh, throughout the year to travel to Cusco, another region in our country. It was going to be a very special moment. But then something happened and the group decided to not go to Cusco and take the money and build a project. These were kids of like 10 years old. And take that money and they started build. They started searching for a community where kids were their same age, um, but they were much more disadvantaged at uh, a much more disadvantage maybe in a community in extreme poverty. And they started taking everything that they learned to establish a relationship with them. Uh, and then they visited each other and then the kids managed to Lead the building of, uh, like a library. And for those other kids, it was very, uh, a very sincere case that I think was the first time. I remember it very clearly because that was the first time in 2012 that I said, this is for me. I said, this is foreign. This is something that I don't. How can this be? What is this? And. And why did it happen? I've never heard of students shifting the logic of what a student could do with and in their education. And so then a, uh, series of events happened. And in the pandemic, we had the chance to bring, uh, I'll close with this first one. This was the beginning. Um, the other thing that bothered me was why are we withholding tools and knowledge from students? That I, for example, the first time that I went to a program in Harvard of nine days, uh, to gain tools to run nonprofits, and I was saying, why are we. I don't see that knowledge being socialized with young people. Why is that? Why are we withholding that? Did a small experiment, did a case study with, uh, the case study that they taught me from Aravind Hospital. It's a very famous case study of social change. And found, uh, out that kids from all ages could understand and access and think strategically and they could handle those tools. And then we built this program, started as a digital program that brought together students from all over the country that had the, uh, um, that had the. This idea and this motivation to contribute to their communities. It turns out that there were tens of thousands. And since then, um, we've been able to bring a few thousand of them together.

Lydia Cao: That's wonderful. Thank you for introducing yourselves. Um, so a couple of things really stood out to me. One is this notion of permissionless innovation that I don't need to wait until I. I've gone to university, I've gone to Harvard, you know, so for me to start something that this notion of self efficacy. Fiorella, you mentioned that, you know, believing in myself that I can be a contributor, I can make a change in this community, and I don't have to wait. And Franco, you mentioned, like, not withholding these, um, tools and practice from y learner. We're not preparing them. Uh, we do not need to prepare them. The best way to prepare them is empower them with these tools and practice for me, for them to, uh, exercise agency and create this impact. So my first question for you guys is, I, uh, would love to hear from Astrid and Fiorella. What did you guys build? What kind of movement and community did you Guys build through this program. And to Franco, I would love to hear more about your practice and the organization. How did you guys empower learners to foster that permissionless innovation and self efficacy for young people like Astrid and Fiorella to really, um, exercise that agency. So, uh, whoever can jump in,

Astrid Abuhar: uh, I'd love to jump in just because that question really excites, um, me. Well, um, something that I think is very, very important to mention about this, um, short program, short leadership program and long leadership program that we had in Sanya, Peru, is that projects didn't need to be a nonprofit. Projects didn't need to be, um, I don't know, like something big that you can put in your curriculum, right? We put a lot of emphasis into like, okay, whatever develops your leadership. And that can be something that involves hard skills, something that involves soft skills. It could be regarding your own life, it could be regarding lives or some other people. Um, so something I had a little bit of like this mix of projects where one of my biggest projects was just like to find, um, what was going to be my academic path and why I wanted that academic path, right? So something that I really got support all throughout the program was in applying to university abroad, um, to any like, opportunity abroad, to be honest, any educational opportunity abroad. Um, one of my biggest projects was my entire journey to uwc. I don't know if you have heard about uwc. You see, it's called the United World Colleges. Um, they are a network of, um, high schools. Uh, there are 18 of them around the whole world. Um, and they bring people from every single country of the world, or at least most of the countries on the world. Um, so I got selected for UWC East Africa, which is located in Tanzania. And I well, lived in a campus with like 100 people from many different parts of the world, right? I have friends from all over the world, um, which really taught me a lot about myself, right? So that was one of my projects, um, that I got a lot of support with, right? Because I need to do like a lot of introspection and like knowing myself. Um, and sometimes we might believe like this doesn't really have that much to do with leadership, right? Because we, we think about it as in like, oh, I have to run a non profit, I have to create, I have to do a bunch of things that are like tangible, right? Um, but it was a lot about like soft scale work. Um, what do I want in the world? Why do I want this in the world? Who am I? Who am I? And like, why am I this person, right? Um, so through a lot of conversations with Franco and with other mentors and with amazing people like Fiorella, I realized, um, that I wanted to go abroad because I wanted to see how the world worked and how I could make, how I could get that toolbox

Lydia Cao: of,

Astrid Abuhar: um, ways to think and hard skills so that I can change something. So that was one of my projects, um, that eventually led to Brown University, um, which I think is a little bit too early to mention it, but, um, in Senhor Peru. And one of the most important things about the program is that it doesn't end. It never ends. Because even though we're done with, ah, one year training, um, I still keep close contact, uh, with Franco. I remember when I arrived to Brown, I didn't know what to study. Now it's just having zoom calls with Franco and like, hey, I don't know what to do. I need some help. Um, I still had some meetings with other people from the community. One of my close friends, her name is Sujai, she also went to the same program. I was like, hey, I don't know what to do. I need some help.

Narrator: Right?

Astrid Abuhar: So it's like it never stops. You will always have, um, the support of the community. But anyways, um, and then the other hard project, like kind of like tangible thing that I did is, um, this community that is now not that active. I'm still trying to deal with that, but it's called peer reviews. Um, it was basically, again, since I was really like, passionate for broadening the access to education. Right. Democratizing it. Um, I knew that in Peru the education situation is, um, very, very, very challenging. Um, again, um, high schoolers are not prepared for university and what university demands, um, rural education is just really, really not efficient at all. Um, there are not enough, um, there are not enough spaces in public universities. It's really hard to get in. You have to. There's no holistic application. There's nothing like that. You just have to pass the entrance exam. And every year they make it harder and harder and harder because they have less and less and less spots, right? And then private education is definitely another, just a privilege that a lot of families can't afford. Um, it's pretty expensive. It goes way above the minimum wage. Um, and it's just not a reality. In my case, it wasn't a reality for me either. So I saw the like, huge pool of, of other institutions abroad, right, that were like, hey, you're talented. You want to change the world? You can come in here with me. And I'll teach you.

Fiorella Chonga: Right?

Astrid Abuhar: Um, so I realized that, well, if I have this knowledge, why don't I give it to everyone else? Right? Um, and I knew that a lot of other people knew, like, oh, there's this scholarship and this other scholarship and universities in here, universities in this other country. But a lot of them didn't know how to like, navigate the application process. So peer reviews was a lot about like youth that had already gone abroad, um, that like, could give some tips and tricks for the essays, for the resume, for the asking for a recommendation letter and all these things that I mean are very special to the North American system, I would say, especially for the U.S. um, and I imagine it might be the same situation for Canada. I'm not that sure. Um, so like we kind of like guide them through, right? Um, and I have to admit that it was very challenging because I myself was not a student from abroad, right? So I was just like trying to connect the people that were already outside and be like, hey, can we like get your talents to help the people in here? Um, it run for a couple years very steadily. Um, we had more than 1,000 people engaged virtually. Um, we run a lot of workshops. I connected with a lot of people from the same community right. In Senua. Um, and we really, really. I think we might have not changed the life of everyone, right? But I think we did do some impact in some lives. And I think that's. That's what really that the program taught me that you don't have to change the world, you can change some people's worlds.

Fiorella Chonga: Right?

Astrid Abuhar: And in this case it changed mine and it changed the world of some people as well. Um, but yeah, um, that was a little bit about me. I know Fiorella has done a bunch of really interesting things, especially with hard work, um, and with more of these tangible, um, organizations. So Fiorella, if you would like to share.

Fiorella Chonga: Um, okay. Yes. Well, to start like following the idea of Astri, the projects not necessarily need to be like tangible. One of my project, it was more about m. Changing mentalities.

Narrator: Ah.

Fiorella Chonga: Um, in specifically I. I created this. This project that is called Lost Up. Lost. The of. Of being Lost Up. It compiles of two. Two words. Lost of. Of being. Um, not. Not having something really, really sure. And. And a day of always like, um, being always lost. That is something that never, uh, finishes. But through our life there. There are points where we don't know what to do. Um, and that's how I felt when I was in. In four grade of secondary Also it intensified when I. I was in my fifth grade of secondary. My last. My last grade of high school. So um. The. The context that surround me it was like you need to know, uh, your career. Ah your career already. So uh. So I was like wait, wait please, I don't know what to do. Um and you uh. Like they. My context, um Told me that I needed to have. Have the answers and to be honest I didn't have that answers. And as me there were also a lot of. A lot of teenagers that they didn't know how to process all these. All these. All these questions because it's really really deep and maybe. I don't know if it's a good choice of word but maybe existing existential uh like questions that really make you think and um. Think and um. And all that uh. All that type of question like who I'm. Who I'm a. And um. And who I want to be.

Curtis Bonk: Uh.

Fiorella Chonga: Like it's really overwhelming and when. When we don't know how to m. Manage them. And so for that reason I created this project where uh. Where we cool like uh.

Lydia Cao: We.

Fiorella Chonga: We could like talk talk about uh. About ourselves uh or how or how we are uh Going through this. This period of time. Uh and for that reason at the. The last year, uh. Of 20202020 23. Um. Uh. It ended with um ah. A meeting uh where we can't reflect about uh. The year. The year and how. How. How we did it. Sorry how we did it and not with uh. And. And how we did it bit with. But with uh. A kind um. A kind way. Like in a friendly way. Not like um. Be feeling guilty about what we. What we didn't do but what we can. What we can do and how we feel. Because history I consider is a. A uh. Really really potent tool like uh. Talking about the Only like talking with others. It's a really really important tool. And. And like sometimes we only want to. To feel. Hear it like other person to. To hear you. So in that way is that uh. And for that reason is that uh. I created this. This project and it was uh. Like uh. Not something that I visualized uh For. For a long time. It was only something that. That I created through the year. But also I was also part of different organizations and one of them was Wake up Now. And this organization wanted to empower young people to believe in theirselves because as I said when we are teenagers, um. We don't really know uh. Exactly what we want to do. So um. The first step to get to know us is to believe in ourselves. Like um, uh, to empower ourselves and really believe that we can do something. And that uh, kind of thinking I really develop in the short program of PDL and also in the love program of pdl. And it's something that uh, we were creating together in the ecosystem of pdl. So yeah, Franco,

Franco Mosso Coben: um, I think to answer the question of our practice, um, maybe I can complete part of the story, both of what Fiorella and Astrid would continue to say. No, just, just a brief is that they ah, I've known them for several years and so the, this is just a piece of the impact peer review of their own impact, no peer reviews. And, and Losta, um, because how that branches, how that energy, that kindness branches across all the movement. I personally have seen it both of them and hundreds of others of uh, their peers, uh, because they have also been youth guides in other programs and they've uh, facilitated workshops with over 100 people, ah, and done doctoral level research around student leadership. And so there's so many varieties. And the reason why I make this brief comment was I think something that Astrid said, um, in the very beginning of this one was that uh, I've been reflecting a lot about this. It's ah, a number of mindsets. I would say the work that we do because the details of the program design are one thing, but the mindsets that inform how you design uh, an initiative like this are I think what mattered for, for us. And I think that um, I'll say it like that, as it said it, I think better than what I'm about to say. It is not what we do is not program bound. The programs are a part of what we do, but it is not program bounded. What I mean program bounded is, and I've also done that in previous stages of my work, that is you develop a relationship with young people for the duration of a program that has a beginning and an end. And most organizations are doing youth work right now, behave like that. I'll have a relationship with you only until the last day of the program. Then you're part of the stats of the program and we move on to the next cohort. And this is a problem worldwide for civil society organizations that have alumni, many call them alumni. What is the relationship with them? Um, that for me is program bounded. No, in our case I would say is more commitment bounded in a sense because the logic was, okay, it is one thing to run leadership programs for 28 year olds, already went through major life transitions, etc. It is another thing to run leadership programs for 15 year olds that have major life transitions across their life?

Curtis Bonk: No.

Franco Mosso Coben: And so this, uh, I don't think Theo and Astrik know this, but the first cohort. Because there is the second cohort. The first cohort, when we ran in 2021, the first program, there wasn't anything else and there wasn't any plan. Just had graduated 75 people during the pandemic of the first, very first seven week program. Uh, and then we thought, is that going to be it? So we graduated 75 people the February 1st in 2021. Is that it? So that's. Are we saying goodbye to each other and hoping that things are going to be well? And it turned into an ethical imperative. We couldn't do that. Um, that's when it turned from program based to commitment based. That's the first. No. Uh, and I think that we've tried to foster among all people involved to, to an extent a, uh, commitment, I would say colloquially a commitment to walk together through life and we meet when we meet. No, we. Our first meeting, let's say was within a program. But then afterwards that's. I've said it, uh, uh, at some point it's very explicitly, it's a lifetime commitment. It might sound very extreme, but it is like that, uh, or it might seem too burdensome, I don't know to some people. But this is how we, our first fundamental mindset, we work together from now on. Um, because of that. The second mindset is the approach. What exactly are we doing? Are we running a program? Are we building a community? Um, and we chose, actually we did it without putting a name to it. I just learned ah, four months ago, what is his name. But this is a community development approach. Uh, what we did, which was to foster solidarity and agency between everyone, not depending on anyone in particular. Um, and this is kind ah, of practice, I would say, that is much more organic, is much more responsive to what happens in the group, is much more celebratory of all kinds of ah, solidarity and mutual support, going in every direction and paying attention to what's happening and then just trying to foster it among a large group of people of which we three are some of them. Three of them. Um, I'd say that that, that is another mindset, important mindset, uh, into our actions. The other thing was something that I consider a personal, a personal change. Two personal changes, um, that really drove our work. Um, one is the program based thing, the program bounded logic. It gravitates towards putting a label on the young person based on the program. So if you run a program of citizenship, then people will tend to see the young person through the label of citizenship, uh, and so on and so forth. No financial, education, etc. Or leadership. We started with this label, let's say I didn't know that it was going to be a placeholder that would quickly, uh, lose ground. Um, because when we started moving forward as a community, uh, and people started finding the agency of saying, I don't need to. Even inside. Inside the community, I don't need to ask for permission to anyone to contribute to someone else. So students just started showing solidarity. We've discussed that many of us were very comfortable with not knowing what was going on half the day and then hearing about it later. That two students helped each other. They created something. It was really, really beautiful. And, um, that meant also a proximity with the lives of the young people that cannot be contained within the label of leadership. And that became really important. If we started with a program of leadership, then we moved across the years to an experience of all of our lives in which it is welcomed to discuss the fears and the transitions

Punya Mishra: and

Franco Mosso Coben: question, um, the role of leadership and projects even in our lives, to the point where we now share a culture where, yeah, it is great to do leadership, it is great to run projects, et cetera. But even without it, even if it didn't happen for years, the value, the whole person value is something that drives our interactions. And so in our groups, in our daily interactions, we don't just always talk about the next project. Um, we talk about life as a whole. Um, and then I'd say, I'll mention three. I'm talking too much. Uh, I'll mention three more. And just, we can, if it's, if it's interesting, pick it up. The transition from leadership to stewardship, two very different things. Uh, stewardship is take care of something for someone else. So what are. What were we taking care of? That's the question. With that principle. No, if we became stewards, taking care of things, um, revisiting the relationship with the adult world. What do adults have to do in all of this, in all of this community? Uh, and. And the complexities of that. Um, yeah, I'd say those are some of the most important mindsets that layout work so far. And we're still learning, I guess.

Lydia Cao: Thank you.

Franco Mosso Coben: Thank you, Puneet.

Punya Mishra: I have a quick comment to make. And first of all, this is just so amazing hearing your stories. Um, it's very inspiring. So thank you for joining us today. And sharing. I just wanted to make a quick comment, Franco, building on what you said, which is that what happens when you're alumni and you graduate, I was reminded of an organization in India called the Azim Premji foundation. And they were on a panel here at this conference with other foundations. And one of the questions that was asked is, um, when do you know that the work is done? And you move on. Every other foundation there said, oh, we work with the people who are working there and we see that this project has reached a culmination and we think about what to do next. What blew me away about what the person from the Azim Premier foundation said, they said, what does it mean that the work is done? The work is never done. This is something that is ongoing, so the question of leaving, of moving on, just doesn't arise. Uh, so I just wanted to make that point, which I really appreciate and resonated with this previous, uh, experience I had with an organization in India working on very different things around education and empowerment and so on. But I think this point of that, that this work is never really done, I think is a very important one, um, for. For an organization or a group of people to think about. So I know, Kurt, you've been waiting very patiently, so I will pass it on to you.

Curtis Bonk: So I have an assembly of comments. I want to know if Chris wants to jump in before I, I mentioned them.

Narrator: Okay.

Curtis Bonk: So first off, Astrid, if you could help us out and send Lydia, um, maybe some contact people from the United World Colleges that might want to appear in a future show, that would be really helpful, or myself. I'm sure you've got Lydia's email and can send her that rather quickly. Um, thank you for that. It's rather. I looked it up. It's rather interesting, actually. It would follow on what we're talking about here. Um, so I'm going to put out four or five different things and ask you to comment on one of them. Each of you to comment on one of them. Um, and they relate to scale, affordability, history, replicability, and digital movement. But the history has been answered by Franco just now, so we've cut that one off the list. Thank you for detailing the history of this. Of Encino, uh, Encino, Peru. Um, but the other four maybe haven't as much. If you came to our first shows six plus years ago, you have heard my co hosts constantly talking about scalability. And I was always listening attentively to those discussions. I didn't have a whole lot to say, but now they've Educated me, um, maybe in ways that I hadn't planned. And now I'm really become more sensitive to scalability than I was in the past. So given that you have 6,000 young people involved in Sina Peru, I wonder how you attain that scalability and what advice you have for other small projects to become that scalable or even more so. Um, many of the, many of the guests that we've had on this show have started initiatives and programs. They're very small pilot uh, studies. Some of them evolve rather quickly, some of them slowly, some of them disband after a year or two. So scalability is one. And related to that, I'm a former accountant, I'm interested in affordability. How does one pay for such a thing, such a uh, project? Is that a concern? Um, history of the program of course is important. Embedded in all this, the context of how it evolved, um, so as to help replicability. Uh, what are the principles or components that are included in Encino Peru that are important for others to consider, uh, or keep in mind when they're developing their programs? And by the way, I found the introduction of uh, Encino Peru by Florella and Astrid and Franco to be reminiscent of the open education movement, that there is no uh, criteria to get involved. There is no barrier, no challenge. Those barriers have come down and if people want to get involved, they can, uh, and people want an education, they can go to open universities without worrying about their GPAs and other kinds of things. Uh, not necessarily. Anyhow, finally, Digital Movement, the title in this program is it's um, stewarding digital Youth led movements. And all five co hosts come from the field of learning technologies and digital learning forms of learning. So I wonder if anyone wants to comment on how you maintain membership and inform others and recruit people through the digital movement. What does that involve? What do we mean by digital movement? So if each of you could address one of those things maybe um, and then we can move to Chris, uh, and back to Lydia.

Franco Mosso Coben: So anything scale the second one.

Curtis Bonk: Affordability.

Franco Mosso Coben: Affordability, yeah.

Curtis Bonk: Replicability and digital move and replicability and digital movements. We got history already. So any of those things.

Astrid Abuhar: Great, I'd love to jump in um, for uh, like the digital part, um, the financial part, honestly has always been a challenge for any single um, especially right now since there's much um, shrinking like uh, budgets that any company is willing to give to non profits. I mean it's happening to teach for all as a network. It has been happening for teachers for Peru. I mean it's in Peru I've, I've personally worked uh, with Franco for like some report reports to some of our donors, um, to like, you know, convince them to like, hey, keep financing this. Right. Um, but so it's, it's challenging. I couldn't say much, but I'm sure that Fiorella has some more ideas on that regarding Wake up now because I, I know that Wake up now is really, really good. Regarding financial, um, financial like any fun affordability of the project. Anyway, going back to digital, uh, learning. I think one of the main things that comes uh, up in, in what, how and why was um, Senior Peru so. Or like the, the literature programs, the long ones and the shorter ones so like achievable. It's because they are digital, right? Because you can, it's so much more. It's so easier to just like get a phone, jump into a zoom meeting than like, I don't know, go into some specific place asking permission from your parents and all of this like logistical stuff that you gotta solve first. Especially um, if you count people from rural areas as Fiorella. Fiorella's from a rural area. Right. Like if the program hadn't been virtual, then most likely, um, there would have been so many more challenges to connect to it. Um, in my case I have very strict parents that would have never let me go anywhere. Right. So the fact that, that it was um, virtual definitely like aided um, the whole process. I um, would say that one of the big things that maybe changed a lot over the last years because of the huge globalization movement and the advance of technology is that we didn't, I mean in the past we would have needed like, I don't know, a physical plays and like, you know, do things like the old way, like the hard way, you know that you can touch things but now like you don't. To create, for example, for me to create peer reviews, I didn't need anything as like, as like inputs.

Lydia Cao: Right.

Astrid Abuhar: I just needed my ideas, some people that went into work and access to Instagram, you know, so it was not that challenging. Um, I would say that one, um, of the, as Fiorella and I mentioned like we even like came across in Senior Peru because of Instagram. So I always hear my parents complaining about like oh my gosh, um, social media. So catastrophic. Yes, it's a tool and I think that Insignia Peru found a way to like use it as a very, very good tool. Um, I can say that in my case when I wanted to found peer reviews, I just like went ahead and opened an instagram account. I started following a lot of people, following other initiatives, creating posts with like my free account on Canva, um, and sending messages, creating webinars on Zoom on Google Meet. Um, especially for example, most of the peers I've worked with in peer reviews, I have never met in person.

Fiorella Chonga: Never.

Lydia Cao: Right.

Astrid Abuhar: Because we have mostly worked from different parts of Peru. Um, and we have connected like through Zoom through Google Meet, um, we have shared Google documents and all of this. I think that that's a really important part for the whole permissionless, um, activities.

Fiorella Chonga: Right.

Astrid Abuhar: Because when you want to do something, it, I mean, per views, I want to do it so many times that is like in person you need to deal with so many logistics. You need to get the low, the, the, the plays, you need to get the invites, you need to get the transport, the food, the permission to so many more things come in, um, that for example, as a teenager they wouldn't give it to you.

Fiorella Chonga: Right.

Astrid Abuhar: If I want to go and rent a local, like, like a small place, um, um, then they will be like, oh no, but you're underage, I need your parents permission or I need a document sign. And then you find the whole bureaucratic hell, um, that you got to deal with. And I mean, you know that it's basically impossible, especially if you're underage. So because we have social media, we get to take things into our hands. Right. I didn't need permission of anybody to open an Instagram account and call it peer reviews and start like uploading things in there. Right. I think that was one of the main, main things that you can like use with digital, um, tools. And then the other thing is of course you overcome distance. Again, as I mentioned, you just get people from everywhere. It doesn't matter where they're from. If they want to collaborate and they collaborate.

Franco Mosso Coben: Um, so I'll interrupt you there.

Astrid Abuhar: Yes, definitely.

Curtis Bonk: Okay. Because I want to be sensitive to, um, Punya and Chris have questions too and want to get around to uh, everyone else. So, um, Franco and Ferrell, if you could maybe answer that like a, ah, short, uh, one minute answer. So we can go to Punya's question and then Chris or Chris and then Punya.

Narrator: Huh?

Franco Mosso Coben: I can go with, uh, yeah. Scaling, consistency. We've done this short program 18 times. Uh, the ethical side is no selection process. We welcome everyone, uh, for the more massive, uh, um, and I'd say also part of the scale is for students not to hold themselves from doing leadership. That has to do with being really mindful about the narrative. Who, who can Exercise leadership. So many students, they wouldn't participate because they don't see themselves as potential leaders today. And that was key for us to address that part uh, of the narrative. I would say that made everyone come into what they thought to see a much more welcoming place than the common stereotypes of what it means to be a leader that they have heard all of their life. So he said, even if I haven't done anything, even if I just have an idea, I might not have awards, I might have never done something like that. This is still a welcoming place for me. And I think that was key to scale because you can also scale but also exclude through scaling. We could have had 6,000 of people and celebrate the 6,000 while not knowing that there were another group that didn't fall within the stereotype. I'd say that there are kinds of scale.

Curtis Bonk: Thank you for that. And Astrid, by the way, we've never met as a complete group of co hosts. AI has produced a picture of all of us recently. It looks like we've met but we've never met. So digital learning points are spot on. Uh, and really relate that silver lining for learning for Laurella.

Fiorella Chonga: Okay, I would like to comment um, more to talk more about how it functions the pdle because we are talking about general things but maybe to go deeper m. In how this ecosystem functions. So

Franco Mosso Coben: um.

Fiorella Chonga: Okay. Um. Uh, so it's a much larger ecosystem. Um, like our first um. Or third. Our first interaction with uh, with PDLE is. Are the short programs where we.

Lydia Cao: We always.

Fiorella Chonga: When this short program ends we want. We always want more. Like it's not enough the uh. The short program and for that reason is ah, is that. Excuse the long programs where you can well develop ah, a project that really um. That you are really connected and you want and that really move. Moves you. Um, but then also um. Uh after we. We end this long program and when we are graduated uh job opportunities open up and uh. I'll give you a few examples. For example, um, one of them is leadership campaigns in rural areas. I was part uh, of this opportunity. Uh, and also different researches are conducted around the program ecosystem. Ah and the evaluations are constantly carried, carried out. So um. There is uh. Like um. Uh. And also uh. Other thing. Other interesting thing is that we have cafecito, uh cafecito pdle that where you can't uh connect uh with a person who uh. Who already end his short program with someone who it um. It's uh. It's new in all this ecosystem so you can connect and uh. You can talk about different things like talk about life. It's like you are the mentor and there, there are mentees so you can talk about fears or different things that are going through your mind or maybe help with um, with um, how to manage, uh, organization or ah, search for, how, how could they search for opportunities and things like that. So there are different tools who, uh, who help us to uh, sustain this, this ecosystem.

Curtis Bonk: And can I stop you there just for this? Because we, we only had six minutes left for the show, I think. Or so I hate the, hate to cut anyone off, but I want to go on to, to Punya, uh, Punya. Want to jump in here?

Punya Mishra: Oh, Chris has been waiting very patiently. I got a word in. So. Chris, uh, go ahead.

Narrator: Well, I, I just have a quick historical perspective. Um, about six decades ago, when I was in your age range, I was part of a generation that had quite a controversy with adult society about the role of youth. And what we basically said, um, was we're old enough to get concussions doing sports for you. We're old enough to make minimum wage so that you can make a lot of money. We're old enough to die for you if we get drafted, but we're not old enough to vote. What the hell is that about? And, um, of course the answer was, well, you don't understand enough to vote, but you certainly can do all those other things. Um, so this, this, this sort of tension between, uh, enforced, an enforced mixture of childhood when people don't want you, quote, interfering, unquote, and uh, adulthood when you know you can serve some useful purpose for adults isn't, isn't a new one. And I'm wondering to what extent you get pushback from at least some people who say, you know, you're playing with dolls, kind of, you're, it's, it's pretend. Uh, you're too young really to um, be leaders or to influence society. You're just going to mess things up. I'm curious as to whether that's an issue that you face to some extent.

Astrid Abuhar: Well, since they're very limited on time, I could answer super quick. Um, yes, we have faced that. And I think what I've always said is that, like, well, I'm m doing something right. Yes, I might be young, I might get it wrong. I will do it again. But I think the only way to prepare me to understand society and to understand adulthood is to like, give me the opportunity to do this right. So, uh, to all the adults that have always been like, you shouldn't do this you're not young enough, you're not adult enough for this. I'm just like well I'm trying to learn how to do it. Um, and I think that a lot of adults um, do not realize how smart young people are because we, we have work really hard and we deal with different society than back then. Um, and I think we can do it right. That's what for example other adults that enable this like Franco they're like well if it's kind of hard you just have to keep going.

Lydia Cao: Right.

Astrid Abuhar: Um, and, and I think that's why we always keep on our heads that we might be young enough, we might be young but we're really smart. And that's the only way through to prepare ourselves for society through going through it.

Fiorella Chonga: Right.

Franco Mosso Coben: I would just add that um, there are some battles between adults as well about this. Um so for example it wasn't easy to convince the organization to hire 18 year olds for major roles that you would usually I've, you know, like hat said. But they don't have a title and they don't have experience and they don't know. And so the other side of battles is the very real battles that, that adults also have to.

Lydia Cao: To.

Franco Mosso Coben: I was fortunate enough to be in a position of power to make those things happen. No, but that doesn't always happen. Uh and I think that there is an opportunity to adults that are trying to do this work in my view by far uh, are not well connected yet across the world. And that is a ah real opportunity. I would say it is a silent battle for many.

Fiorella Chonga: So I, I also wanted to comment something quickly. It's like so not. Not to seen as uh two different words like adults and. And teenagers like uh. We can't create something beautiful, something great. Ah if we intricate. Integrate this. This both words because um. There are like adults have experience and teenagers want to want a guy from someone. So we see adults as like that like um. Or guys. And it would like really really good if more adults believe in. In teenagers and, and also because we have opinions or we ah. We are really smart and and it's. It's really different when ah. When in um. It empower us to. To really believe in ourselves and that we are capable of too many things as adults do but with the. But working together also with. With adults not really like totally uh a vertical relationship but more horizontal uh an horizontal relationship. So yeah,

Franco Mosso Coben: I'd also say I'm really hopeful because five years ago the age average was 16. Now the average is 20 and in 10 years, the age average of people that have lived this experience, the new generation of adults, uh, like Theo and Astrid will come by the thousands. In Peru at least. No, that, that. Because, ah, at some point I, I also make the switch of they are already adults, uh, early adults. But then this is a newer generation of adulthood coming as well, uh, by the thousands.

Curtis Bonk: That's a beautiful statement for us to maybe end with, but Punya wants to jump in, I think here.

Punya Mishra: Oh, no, no, no. I was just, uh. Nothing. Nothing really specific in that sense, I think. Yeah, we are at time. So, Lydia, do you want to close out for today?

Lydia Cao: Yeah. I can't believe it's been an hour.

Punya Mishra: I know.

Curtis Bonk: It went by so fast.

Lydia Cao: I know. And then, uh, I feel like we. This can definitely go on for another hour at least. So thank you so much, uh, to all of you, our guests today. Really, really appreciate you taking the time to share your story with us. This is, we all very, very inspired. And uh, so I think now we are going to go on a, uh, summer break for silver lining, for learning, for us to, uh, regroup ourselves and to bring, uh, even better shows for, for all of you starting August 1st.