Site Crashed Day One. Now She Runs One of America's Fastest-Growing Home Brands.

Speaker A: You don't build a brand overnight. My goals for the business were not aligned with investors. Rapid growth at all costs. Like I always believed in slow, intentional growth.

Speaker B: Online home Furnishings is a $230 billion industry, and Sarah Sugarman saw an opportunity hiding right inside it. Sarah grew up in her family's rug business. But instead of following the traditional path, she took everything she learned to build something totally new.

Speaker A: It's usually not one thing. It's like 100 things, and you got to do the hundred things, like, step by step.

Speaker B: In 2012, she launched Lulu and Georgia, a digital first brand that brings curated home decor directly to consumers. Today, the brand is growing 30% year over year, with a repeat customer rate, double the industry average. All without taking outside investment, because every dollar is mine.

Speaker A: I'm so intentional about the way we spend it.

Speaker B: So Sarah's here to talk about what it really takes to build a bootstrap brand from scratch. The chaos, the lessons, and the next chapter. I'm, um, Adam Lavinter, and this is Shopify Masters. Sarah, welcome to the show.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: We're actually sitting on Lulu and Georgia chairs.

Speaker A: We are, Yeah. I was watching some, uh, videos of Shopify Masters and thought maybe we should give them our furniture.

Speaker B: Yeah, they feel great. I mean, they sort of match my shoes. Yeah. Um, so take me back to 2012. What opportunity did you see, and what was the business that your family was in that allowed you to see it?

Speaker A: My grandfather started a company called Decorative carpets in the 1950s. It was one of the first trade only carpet, uh, showrooms. So before it was kind of lifestyle showrooms, where you'd have furniture and rugs. And he saw an opportunity and opened up a rug showroom in West Hollywood. And my father took over the business. And I grew up there back then. They would actually hand paint all the rug designs. And so I would spend some time in the art department painting my own designs. Then my dad was begging me to join the family business. He was wanting to retire, and he wanted a succession plan and begging me. I was living in New York at the time, begging me to come back to LA and work for the family. And, um, I at first was hesitant because it didn't sound, you know, as exciting. I was working in magazines in New York. I was working for Oprah. And that was very exciting. Um, but I thought it was a great opportunity. And my husband, who was then my boyfriend, wanted to move to Los Angeles as well. And my dad said, okay, first you're going to learn the Carpet business in New York and he had me train with a sales rep in New York. We went over, uh, all of New York selling carpets to the high end showrooms there. And I learned the business and then came back to Los Angeles. And when I came back, the industry was really changing. It was the recession. Designers were shopping online and it was hard to get people in the door. This closed showroom model that existed started, you know, it was the start of more transparency with the buyer where now the buyer wanted to shop directly and um, bypass the designer. And the environment was just, I just really saw that this was shifting and that I, you know, I, I needed to see, to come up with a pivot. I think that the, the third generation of a family business usually destroys it. But there is a saying that the third generation sometimes reinvents the wheel and I hope that I did that. So the Lulu and Georgia came out of what can we do differently? How can we pivot the business? Um, my dad and I would go on international buying trips and I saw that I could import rugs at a more accessible price point that are still really high end and still high design. And that's really how the idea got started.

Speaker B: And were you watching what was happening in E commerce? Like what did you notice about online shopping? This is circa 2012.

Speaker A: This is 2012. So I, I was shopping a ton online and just saw how for, for uh, you know, uh, anybody that's working, but especially uh, you know, a working woman who's a mother, it is very hard to find time to go into the store and shop. And so you're online shopping at night in your bed and you know, online shopping between meetings at work. And so I thought this would be a great way to bring these accessible price point rugs to the consumer.

Speaker B: Do you start with rugs? Is that the first assortment of product that you list on the website?

Speaker A: That used to be the first, the first category, um, of product, uh, in our navigation. It is not currently anymore, but rugs were always what we were known for. I love rugs. I think they're the best product to sell. Um, they're from a business perspective, they're high AOV product, they're high margin product, they don't get damaged in transportation. They have a really high perceived value because the rugs that we design and import are all handmade. So it's a great business. And I, um, I think the passion for rugs really came out to the customer in our business model. But no, we actually launched with all categories. But rugs were the focus, low returns

Speaker B: rate also I would imagine lower returns.

Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and Lulu in Georgia going back to. So the traditions of family and family business. This name, this brand stems from your father and grandfather.

Speaker A: Yeah, my, my grandfather's name was Lou and my dad's name's George. And so the, the name really was an ode to them. And they're so much a part of Lulu in Georgia and our uh, you know, our trajectory, our journey. So much of uh, the business model is actually the same. You know, we design and import rugs, I mean in products and make, um, bring beauty into the home. Those things are the same as, you know, what my grandfather had started. Just the mode of selling is, you know, what's different.

Speaker B: It feels like this is um, a brand that's so much more than just home decor. It's really this sort of design experience. I was on your site earlier and it feels very, um, aspirational.

Speaker A: Yes, in a way. Yes.

Speaker B: Um, what do you make of that? And, and was that part of your idea to build, build a brand in this way?

Speaker A: For sure. We're selling a lifestyle and people have to trust us as the expert in order to, you know, make that purchase. They're trusting that what we say and what we're putting out there and that what we're designing and curating is the best. And, and it is, that's, that is our, that is our mission. So m. For sure we're selling a lifestyle more than individual products.

Speaker B: And I can reserve a home decor consultation.

Speaker A: Yes, you can.

Speaker B: So is this an entry point? Like how does this all work?

Speaker A: We have an in house design team. So what I, uh, was realizing is that my friends would ask me, how do I put this together? Will you help me? I don't know where to start and it is overwhelming. It's not the same as clothing where you've been dressing yourself your whole life. You know, people that are now buying their first home or wanting to invest in, you know, furniture, rugs for the first time, they don't know how to put the room together. Even I struggle with putting the room together. I hire designers from my own home because it's, it's hard, scales hard and it's decision, you know, paralysis, you know, you don't know where to go first. So I realized that they needed help and so that's why we created the um, design team. It's completely free and it's to help the customer, you know, aid in their, in their journey of designing their home.

Speaker B: You know, I was looking at your Social media earlier and it's fantastic. So well done there.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Instagram alone has something like 1.2 million followers. I mean that's huge.

Speaker A: Sounds right.

Speaker B: Um, when does social media take off for you and how did you generate so much engagement there?

Speaker A: So it started from the very beginning and we were lucky because that was really the start of Instagram M and so uh, social media also allowed an opportunity for all these influencers and you know, regular people to post about their home and so you could see it and say, oh I want this and be inspired by it. So social media was such a powerful tool and we're such a visual brand. So you know, tools like Instagram and Pinterest were huge for the start of our business. And, and we just started, I mean, I think, you know, I, uh, me and an intern were posting photos and they got a lot of traction and we had a lot of influencer engagement in the beginning and that's really how we grew the brand.

Speaker B: Are you still active with influencers today?

Speaker A: Oh yeah, it's a big part of our strategy.

Speaker B: So what does that look like? Exactly.

Speaker A: So I mean we, we pay influencers to post about us, we give them a lot of product, we form a lot of relationships with them. Um, we shoot content with influencers. We also have a whole program of licensee collaboration. So we have influencers and designers that actually design product for us and that's hugely successful. And we, we started that in the very beginning of Lulu and Georgia and has been um, a really big part of the company growth. Um, they're very sought after products that have a unique perspective and the, it's also, you know, a brand marketing channel because they're posting about it and they obviously it has their stamp of approval, they designed it.

Speaker B: What is the role of TikTok today? You've got 400,000 followers there.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, how do you treat TikTok and what is the role of that channel versus some of these other top of funnel drivers?

Speaker A: I think, you know, TikTok is just as important to us as the other social media channels. TikTok's more organic so we're posting different types of content there. Uh, it's a little more loose and less refined than I think we're posting on Instagram. But in the beginning of TikTok it was like, oh no, you don't want to be, you can't be an elevated sophisticated brand on TikTok. But I think, I think our customer is definitely there and that's proven not to be true.

Speaker B: Where does direct mail and catalog fit into the equation?

Speaker A: So I started my career, my very first job out of college was working in direct mail for Hearst Magazines. I worked for Esquire, Smart Money, and Popular Mechanics, and we would do the insert cards that, you know, kind of fall out of magazines. It was, um, a really boring job, and it was seen as very antiquated at the time. And, like, this is a dying feel. Get out quick, go to E Commerce, like, do something else. So I did get out quick, but it is, it has come full circle, and it was not antiquated at all. When we, when we launched our catalogs, that was a very pivotal, uh, moment for us because now people are experiencing the brand in real life in their house. And really, you know, you talked about the lifestyle being what. What really we're leading with. And that's such an easy way to, you know, lead with, with lifestyle imagery and to show somebody a beautiful catalog that's representative of your brand. So that's a huge part of our strategy today. And not only with the catalogs, but also with, you know, direct mail to new movers or other types of pieces that are targeted at different types of users.

Speaker B: How do you measure the effectiveness of direct mail? Like, what are you tracking?

Speaker A: Um, we can tell if they've received a catalog and if they have purchased, and then we are using a holdout group to figure out if there's a lift in sales.

Speaker B: Where do you think? I mean, do you think direct mail can still play a role in big ticket industries beyond home? I'm just curious, like, where. It seems to me that this is, uh, a particular category fit. But do you think a lot of brands are missing this opportunity based on how beneficial it's been for you guys?

Speaker A: I think that it works well for any aspirational brand. I'm not sure. And big ticket, I mean, look at Amazon. My kids will go through that Amazon catalog at Christmas and, like, start picking out what the physical catalog. It's crazy. And they'll just pick it out. Like, I won't even. Like it was supposed to go in the trash. And they're like, picking it out and being like, oh, I want this, I want that. So for sure, it can work for, for others as well. And that's not aspirational.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, Lulu in Georgia has a 52% repeat purchase rate that is two times the industry average. That's fantastic.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: How do you generate these repeat purchases? What's your strategy here?

Speaker A: Well, one way is we have a very loyal customer base of interior Designers and trade professionals. So those people naturally are repeat purchasing. Right. Those are very, um, high value customers to us because they have many projects. But I think more than that, um, for the customer that is not an interior designer, we are doing a good job of selling them the whole house. We have all of the components to make a home for them. And so if they have the rug and then they're saying, oh, I now see how they styled this rug with this coffee table and maybe I should get the coffee table as well. So I think, and through, through, um, systems like design services, where we do have a direct relationship with, with the customer, they're able to really help, obviously incentivize them to come back and make that other purchases.

Speaker B: Sarah, let's go back to those early days. So, um, I read somewhere that your first version of the online site was on Drupal. It was, uh, so very scrappy.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And you were putting together purchase orders on your own manually, and the first day that the site is up, you crash.

Speaker A: Yes, we crashed the very first day.

Speaker B: Okay, tell me the story please.

Speaker A: So I, I knew what I was doing with making product, with importing product, and, and I really knew what I was doing with brand marketing. But, um, I had no idea what I was doing with technology. And we clearly had set up a system that did not work for not not only the demand, but didn't work for, uh, any type of infrastructure. So I, I kind of had this belief in the beginning, like, you know, let's just build it, let's just get the customer. And this was, this was not a mistake. I, I don't, I don't, I don't regret this because I think I was trying to also figure out proof of concept. Like I didn't want to spend all this infrastructure and technology. I wanted to see like, are people resonating with our products? Do they even like them? So we didn't invest in technology at all. And on the, we had um, created through influencers and through social media a very big build up to the company launch. We had put up a page that was like collecting email addresses before we were ready for launch. And yeah, on the day that the,

Speaker B: that strategy still works, by the way.

Speaker A: That strategy works.

Speaker B: So good for you. You're, you're way ahead the curve.

Speaker A: And uh, and then, and then the site crashed on day one. And that was, you know, such a, a good wake up call. And uh, it was really a metaphor for everything to come because that kind of stuff still happens. You know, the site doesn't crash. But it, you know, the other things crash.

Speaker B: I mean, absolutely. It's sort of terrifying but also validating, right? In a way.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You've got something.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for sure. It was validating for sure. And, and I, I realized I was all alone and had to figure it out myself. And that was powerful as well.

Speaker B: Who was on the team back then and how?

Speaker A: No one. There was no one on the team. It was me. And I was, I was still running our, our showroom, our, my family business's showroom. And this was very much, you know, my father had, had been grooming me to take over the family business. And while he was very supportive of me doing this on the side, it was like, oh, this is like a little side thing. Like, this was something I did on the. At night. You know, people were coming in the door and I had to service them and I was managing salespeople. So this was like, this was a side gig for sure.

Speaker B: When does it feel like it goes from a side hustle to a legitimate business?

Speaker A: A couple years in, it had surpassed my family business in terms of revenue. And then it was like, okay, I gotta do this instead.

Speaker B: So what does the hiring process look like and how does the team grow as the business grows?

Speaker A: We had taken a few people from my family business. I had hired interns or people that were right out of college that I just found could be, um, like I saw that spark in them and that kind of, um, desire to grow and be, uh, uncomfortable and want the challenge and kind of hired these, these people fresh out of college that honestly, one of them still works for us today. She's our head of creative. So, um, I didn't have any money though. I didn't have any money to start the business. So it was like hiring people who could work, I mean literally college kids who could work, you know, part time and just help me get some spreadsheets so I could get, so I could load product into the site. That kind of scrappy model lasted us a couple years until I had my first child. And then I realized like, that was actually the hardest point in my business where I realized, oh, I can't this, can't do this alone anymore. I really gotta hire people.

Speaker B: But speaking of scrappy, I mean you've been able to bootstrap this business the entire way through. This is completely self funded and you've remained profitable.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Year over year.

Speaker A: Well, I think you have to be if you're going to not.

Speaker B: There are other creative ways to finance the business. Right?

Speaker A: Well, we have no Debt either.

Speaker B: Right. I was going to say we have no debt. You could have taken these, um, operating lines of credit or these other debt vehicles to help you grow.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You didn't do that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I mean, it's an unbelievable testament to how not only scrappy, but I would say smartly, you're running the business.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Where, where does the credit go for that? Is that just your mindset and the way that you've approached things from day one?

Speaker A: Well, in the beginning, um, the goal was not to become some big company that we were going to sell. So I, I approached it from such a different mindset. Right. It was, it was how do I keep the family thrive and thriving for my, for, for me and my future, you know, So I, I knew this was going to be how I support my family, so how was I going to keep it thriving? So it was really just to create a profitable business. And one thing I had learned from my family business was how to run a profitable business. So that was really the goal in the beginning. I had some mentors, um, consultants around the time that had said you really need to um, raise money and you need to go on kind of the roadshow to the VCs and raise money. And I, it's started that process and realized pretty quickly this isn't for me. I really truly believe that brands take time to, to build. Right. You don't build a brand overnight. And so my, uh, my goals for the business were not aligned with investors of, of, you know, let's just rapid growth at all costs. Like I always believed in slow, intentional growth. And by the way, I mean it's double, triple digits year over year, but still like not, not, not in the way that I think some of the brands are maybe forced to grow, um, when they take investor, um, money sometimes.

Speaker B: Have you thought about it recently and um, what would you do with outside investment, do you think?

Speaker A: So that's, that is why I haven't done it because I don't know what I would do with that money that I feel is, is in the best interest of the business. Because I believe that slowing growing in a m. Slower, more intentional way is, is best for the company. And because m. Every dollar is mine, I'm so intentional about the way we spend it in a way that I don't think I would be if somebody just handed me, you know, 20, $30 million or whatever. I don't, I don't think I, you know, you're not as intentional about how you're spending, spending the money. So yes, we are, we are profitable. We've always been cash flow positive. And I'm very, um, in tune with those, with those metrics to make sure that, you know, that we only have ourselves. But I, but I have complete, complete control and that's amazing.

Speaker B: So how does the inventory side of the business work? Are you committing to product upfront.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And storing that product, that inventory?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Before you sell it?

Speaker A: Yeah. So 50% of our revenue comes from products that we design and import ourselves. That's the products that we inventory.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: The other 50% is split between products that we carry from other wholesale partners on a dropship model. And then a portion of that is made to order. So those are items that um, is specifically in upholstery where the customer is picking out their fabric and their legs and we are making it to order. And those usually take like four to six weeks. So those are not inventory. But half of the product is inventoried. And yes, we are committing to it way ahead of time. It takes two years, our development cycle.

Speaker B: How does the predictive analytics side work? So if you're, if 50% is committed inventory, how long has it taken to understand like cycle times before you're going to move that product? Like what, what systems, what analytics have you perfected to understand the risk side?

Speaker A: I mean, we have a whole planning department that is planning every skew, you know, from a bottoms up perspective. And they're using tools to also help them. We do have technology that helps them as well, but it took a while to figure out. I mean, you need some history, right? Like you need to say, okay, are you, um, are swivel chairs going to perform better than, you know, non swivel chairs? And you know, you start to create some, these um, guys, these. Right, these guys you got to create, you got to create some history in order to compare, like, products. And in the beginning that was really challenging for me because I had no idea what the demand is. The problem is, we were, we've been playing catch up for a lot of our history, uh, where if you, if you never buy enough, then you never know what your ceiling is. And so it took a while to figure out, you know, what that ceiling is by taking the risk to buy enough. There are a lot of products that we bring in that are based on true gut, and you have to have that. You have to have a gut test of, uh, uh, a. We're all in a room together and there's 20 to 30 of us that are in product development and buying and people are just saying, I want that. I have to have it. When is this going to come in stock? And, you know, you, you know what products are going to hit. Sometimes you're wrong, but for the most part, we're right.

Speaker B: So this year you're opening your first physical location.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: In West Hollywood.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Very exciting.

Speaker A: Full circle moment.

Speaker B: Congratulations.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: How did this come about?

Speaker A: My team has been begging me to do brick and mortar, like, for the last 10 years. And I've said no, I have no interest in doing brick and mortar one, because I kind of thought that's where, like, you know, direct to consumer brands go to die sometimes. My friend, actually, I called him up when I said I was going to do this, and he's like, when I was going to open up a showroom, and he's like, oh, no, don't do it, don't do it. But, um, I don't think that's going to be the case for us. I think it's going to, I think it's going to be fantastic for the business. I just really believed in online. I really believed in E commerce. That's how I shop. And I was like, who's going into the store? When are they using? Like, who's using it? Our customers were begging for it. Our designers were begging for it. Can we see swatches? Can we just show our customer to sit on the sofa? How does it feel? So I, I think this is, uh, a pretty low risk for us. It's a small space that's supposed to feel like a home and will be a good test to see, um, you know, how, how customers interact with the space and, and also what it does for, for customer, you know, customer trust, you know, that we are now showing our, our products in a physical space. It shows that we stand behind our products, which we absolutely do, and want people to, to come in and see what the quality is like and also to be able to interact with the brand.

Speaker B: You said sometimes it's where online brands go to die. Um, I would say Omnichannel is very much in vogue now. And you want to meet the customer where they're at.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And whether it's online or in store or at an event or whatever, I mean, seems to me that's a huge brand exposure opportunity.

Speaker A: Definitely. Definitely.

Speaker B: The corollary being that you can potentially sell product out of, out of that store, but to just touch and feel and experience the Lulu and Georgia brand.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Seems to be a great opportunity.

Speaker A: Yes. I, and I think that brand awareness is a huge piece of it. It is going to be profitable in and of itself because that's how we run things. But I think, you know, it is huge for brand awareness as well. And it's not some huge retail expansion strategy. I think we'll have showrooms and markets. That's the ultimate goal, but not, um, to, you know, have 50 stores across the country.

Speaker B: So you also have a hospitality division and a kids collection coming.

Speaker A: Yeah, so hospitality is something that I did when I worked at my family business. Um, and we honestly got a lot of hospitality orders, meaning hotel orders, commercial spaces that just kind of come naturally. But we didn't have all of our products tested to hospitality grade, you know, use. And so we decided to really launch hospitality as its own department. We're launching in Vegas, um, at the HD show, which is a hotel hospitality design show in, in May. But um, really think that's a huge opportunity because people are already using our, our products in, in hospitality spaces.

Speaker B: Is that B2B side potentially more profitable than the B2C side?

Speaker A: No, I don't think it's necessarily more profitable. Um, they're bigger orders for sure. So that makes it. Maybe it's more profitable when you take into consideration operational, the, the operations that go into fulfilling single orders.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: It's easier from that perspective and probably cheaper.

Speaker B: So we talked a little bit about repeat purchase rate, um, and then beforehand you and I were chatting about generating recurring revenue from customers in your space. I don't think it's obvious you know, what that strategy is, but you did highlight, um, Restoration Hardware's RH membership program. Have you thought about building some sort of loyalty membership, community play?

Speaker A: We have thought about it. I mean, I don't think it's right for our brand right now. I think, um, there's so many avenues to take the business and so many things out there to test and learn. We have to be really disciplined about our approach and what we're testing next. So while that might be something interesting in the future, it's not something we're testing now.

Speaker B: Anything else that you can share in terms of generating year over year consistent growth? Um, you've managed to do this completely bootstrapped. I mean, your growth rate, which is I think 20 to 30% year over year, is really nice and steady. What can you point to operationally that you think would be helpful for other business owners to understand here?

Speaker A: Well, I think, you know, sometimes my, uh, my team will ask me, how did you come up with the goal for next year? And, and I said, like the revenue goal. The revenue goal because we start with the revenue goal. Right. And then everything gets kind of backed out of there.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: And I said, I just came up with it. Right. Like, I just, I just came up. And they, they don't like that. But it's. It's. Let's. Let's figure out what the goal is and then, and then, and then figure out the plan to get there. And different years, that's. Different plans and different strategies. You know, this year, how we're getting there is where we're creating a showroom, we're launching a hospitality division. Next year, we're creating a kids division. Beyond that, we're also scaling our marketing channels and, um, scal. Scaling teams like design services and trade. So there's, I think, you know, they're uncomfortable with the initial shock when you're saying, okay, we're going to grow, you know, double digits year over year. And it's like, well, how do you do that? How do we do that? We're going to create a plan. And we create a plan every year. And, um, we very analytical and numbers focused and, um, everybody feels really confident about the plan when, when we're. When it's all said and done.

Speaker B: Any major turning points or wins where you saw, um, extraordinary growth from one year to the next, where you completely annihilated your goal, let's say.

Speaker A: So 2020 Covid. Huh? I remember, you know, sending everybody home and saying, see you in two weeks. And, um, my CFO called me and said, okay, start making a list of who you're going to lay off. And I said, I don't. I don't know. Not maybe. Not yet. And it was in weeks that it was like. It just hit us. It hit us like a hurricane, though. Not. Not in, uh, not. It was amazing, the amount of growth and demand, but it collapsed our entire infrastructure. And that's what I mean by, you know. And it's not even slow growth because we're obviously growing double. Just not slow growth. But to have intentional and thoughtful growth, I think is so important because when you have these years where you're doing, you know, 200% year over year, 2020, it will collapse every single infrastructure, you know, you have. If you're not prepared for that, you're

Speaker B: drinking out of a fire hose.

Speaker A: Yes. And it did. It was everything. It was customer service, it was warehousing, it was, I mean, return everything. Everything collapsed. And so it was a really stressful time. Um, and in the systems, we didn't have like an ERP system at the time, like it was, it was, it was really, it, all of it. Um, but the growth was extraordinary and I think it did push us forward many years.

Speaker B: Anything outside of COVID that you would point to that was a catalyst.

Speaker A: I mean, I don't. I. There wasn't one year that I can speak of. Besides, for Covid, that was the most extraordinary amount of growth. I, um, think it's, you know, it's that I, I think it's the slow, disciplined growth that you want. Right. Like, I think that people always ask, you know, well, what was the inflection points? Like, what were the. What were the one thing that I can do that's going to transform the business? And it's not. It's. And it's, it's usually not one thing. It's like, it's like a hundred things and you kind of gotta do the hundred things like step by step. And people don't want to hear that because I think they want these, like, give me like, what I have to do to make these like, big transformations in the business. And you know, unfortunately, it's just kind of like a, ah, it's a marathon.

Speaker B: You know, what you were saying earlier about your goal wasn't to really exit the business, right, have this grand exit. It was really just to extend the family legacy. Do you still feel like that is the main objective? Because it seems to me, I mean, you've already reached it. Um, so what is that next goal?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And I think that that's like, you know, what does success look like to you? And, um, I want to be constantly challenged. And so I am always going to set the target higher and the revenue goal higher, uh, for myself to be uncomfortable and to feel challenged and to feel like I'm growing. So, you know, I don't know if I can put a number on exactly what the next goal is, but, uh, but I think I want to be able to take the business into new, um, areas. You know, right now it's retail. It's, you know, and I think maybe it's international and uh, and. And see where it goes from there.

Speaker B: So, speaking of international expansion, what would that look like and how would you assess which markets you want to expand into?

Speaker A: So we already have a lot of interest and, and we do sell to certain markets, but it's, it's, it's obviously not in any, any formal way. We have been looking into different strategies. It's not on the, um, it's not on the current roadmap because again, like, we have, we kind of have signs, uh, up for our big company initiatives for this year, next year. But, um, in terms of, uh, I think we're looking at opportunities where we could partner with other companies and other, um, in other countries. We're looking at obviously opening, um, our own sites in other countries. So I think there's, there's a couple opportunities that we could. Ways we could go.

Speaker B: So looking back, it's been a great journey, a long journey. What are a couple of mistakes that you feel like you could redo?

Speaker A: So I think in the beginning, not having the technology infrastructure was definitely a mistake. Although I don't regret it in the very beginning, but I. What I do regret is not, not, not fixing that, you know, uh, immediately. Once we had seen traction, once I had proof of concept, I kind of let the, the technology piece of the company become. And, and really technology is, is supportive of the business. It is not the business. We are not a technology company. But I, I needed to pay more attention, especially from an operational standpoint, in order to make sure that the business had the infrastructure to scale. And that was for sure a mistake.

Speaker B: Is your father still around? He is still involved in the business?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: He's not involved in the business.

Speaker B: He must be a proud guy.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think he is.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, congratulations on all the success. You've done a great job.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Sarah, thanks so much for being here and thank you for tuning in. If you like what you saw today, be sure to hit that subscribe button below so you never miss an episode, and I will see you in the very next one.