Rediscovering Real Time Conversations in Sales featuring Mary Jane Copps

Speaker A: Welcome to the Selling from the Heart

Speaker B: podcast on the from the Heart Business Network.

Speaker A: You've joined a global movement of sales professionals who are dedicated to being authentic and building trust. We call it Selling from the Heart. Together, we're on a mission to bring sincerity and substance to the sales profession we all love. Get ready to be inspired and equipped as we join our hosts, Larry Levine and Darryl. Amy,

Speaker B: If you love the Selling from the Heart podcast, then you know how much we value authentic leadership and building relationships with heart. But here's the thing. Great leadership doesn't stop with sales. It starts at the top, with CEOs who inspire trust, create meaningful cultures, and lead with purpose.

Speaker C: That's why we're excited to invite you to get involved with the Culture from the Heart podcast. On Culture from the heart, we celebrate CEOs who are transforming their companies by putting people first. And we're asking you to help us find them.

Speaker B: Do you work for an incredible leader? Know a CEO who builds culture from the heart? Nominate them to be interviewed on the show. Together, let's spotlight the leaders who make businesses thrive by leading authentically.

Speaker C: So head over to culturefromtheheart.com to submit your nomination today. Because when leadership starts with the heart, culture and success, follow. Hello, and welcome back to the Selling for the Heart podcast. Your co host, Darrel Amy, here today with Larry Levine. What's going on, Larry?

Speaker B: Oh, uh, it's a great day here, Darrell. It's always good seeing my dear friend Darrell. Amy. Hey, we're in for a treat today. We're going to have a terrific conversation today.

Speaker C: A, uh, conversation about conversations you're going to love. Meeting our new friend, Mary Jane Copps. This is so fun, Larry. You and I got to hang out all week this week. It's been a lot of fun, uh, just being, uh, together and training and all kinds of fun stuff. And here we are, uh, recording this on a Friday afternoon, and we've got some new friends in, uh, the Selling from the Heart community, just from this week alone.

Speaker B: Hey, thanks for teeing that one up, because actually, I had written down James Ward to give a special shout out to. James is a great guy. I so appreciate you being a part of this community. You got a great career ahead of you. We just appreciate you being a part of the Selling from the Heart community, James. Thank you.

Speaker C: You sure do. Yeah, James exudes. Selling from the Heart is really, really cool. Well, hey, we've got a guest today that's going to bring us back to one of the most powerful and often overlooked Skills in sales, the ability to have meaningful, real time conversations. Mary Jane Copps has spent more than 20 years helping sales professionals, entrepreneurs and customer facing teams rediscover how to build trust, open doors and win business through the power of conversation. Wow. In today's world filled with automation, emails, digital noise and AI, Mary Jane's message is simple. But urgent opportunities are lost when conversations are avoided. She teaches teams how to confidently pick up the phone, engage over video and connect in person, turning everyday interactions into meaningful relationships that drive results. And she's here to have a conversation with us today. Uh, looking forward to this one. Mary Jane, welcome to Selling from the Heart. It's great to have you here.

Speaker A: It's great to be here. Thanks so much.

Speaker B: It's our pleasure. We're gonna have a great time.

Speaker C: Uh, I know we will. And I'm gonna kick this conversation off by asking you the question we ask every guest on Selling from the Heart. And that is, Mary Jane, what does Selling from the Heart mean to you?

Speaker A: It means coming to a conversation with endless curiosity and unlimited empathy for that prospect or that customer that's right in front of you. And one of my first lessons that goes all the way back to 1988 when I started my first business was that selling isn't about us, it's about the person that we have in front of us. And um, I had to teach myself how to sell when I started that first business because I was in my 20s and so confident. I decided to put a mortgage on my house to start that first business. And I had no sales background. And I learned that if I was always thinking about myself and the fact that I had to make a sale, nothing happened. But if I step back and remembered that I was being of service to this person by telling them about what I was doing because I'd done my research and I knew it was a fit for them, everything changed. And some of Those people from 1988 are still people I know and talk to and work with. So that's where we really build relationships and trust as well.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Oh, we're gonna have a really good conversation here today, Darrell. I can already tell and I, I just want to continue down this journey. Uh, and I want to unpack something that you said about selling is not about us. Open this up some more for us, please.

Speaker A: Sure. I can give you actually a recent example. I was working with a team that is selling supplies to dentists. Now if we think about that, they're showing up in person, they're talking to that front Desk person. But uh, everything about dentistry changed in 2020 and all those health standards they put in place, they are still following. So there's a shortage of hygienists, there's a shortage of technicians. Um, people have greater expectations of what a dentist can do. So if you go in and talk price, nothing's going to happen. Their priority has shifted into how easy is this to use in my practice and can every staff member understand it? If not, I'm not investing it because I can't train people how to use this. Really doing the research is so important and understanding where that prospect or client might be coming from right now, the moment that you're walking in the door or picking up the phone or getting on the camera.

Speaker C: So good. I think in today's world the art of conversation is something that sadly has gotten lost. I mean we hide behind keyboards, um, and it's really, really tempting to do. Um, I think we can say maybe the younger generation more so, but I think it's. All of us, uh, are tempted to hide behind keyboards but nothing really happens until we engage in conversation. You said two things. It really, I just absolutely love you talk about unlimited curiosity. And I think you said boundless empathy, unlimited, uh, curiosity. This is something that I don't think we talk enough about in sales is the power of curiosity.

Speaker A: It's so important and it is about asking open ended questions and it's something I love introducing teams to. I have a little exercise or game that I do when I'm training. Um, because you're right, uh, I just finished my 2026 report on uh, real time conversations in the workplace. And there's a big gap between what executives and CEOs believe conversations can do and what's actually happening.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: And it is because we get to edit an email, we get to edit a text, we get to maybe not send it right away, all those things. And so there are, we lose the skill to be in the moment. And so when you say something to me, I have to think of the open ended question that expands that conversation. And if I'm not practicing conversations, if I'm not using them, then that moment becomes very uncomfortable and we decide I'll send an email instead.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Hey, I, I like this because used a word that's near and dear to me. It's practice and ah, I don't think we practice enough to have these conversations to be, be prepared to have these conversations with empathy and curiosity and intentionality and insert any other word. We all want to insert this Requires conversational practice, Mary Jane.

Speaker A: It really does. And that's what has slowly eroded over time. Right. So we have at least two generations in the workplace. And I'll pick on the phone because as you know, I am the phone lady. Um, um, they didn't grow up with a phone in the house, so it's in their pocket. But what's in our pockets is not a phone, it's a computer.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: We call it a phone, but it's a computer. And so they don't have to even talk on it to order pizza. Right. Everything. So then when they're faced with answering a call, they're terrified. I've had calls from CEOs who've asked me to spend time with a salesperson because she couldn't stop crying. She was so afraid of answering the phone. Because you have to improvise and improvising is actually a skill.

Speaker C: Mhm. Just thinking about the iPhone, uh, that we all use or whatever smartphone model you happen to use. Everything about that is built. It's so funny, we call it a phone because everything about it is built to avoid talking on the phone, text order pizza, insta chat, snap, gram, whatever. All of it's avoiding, uh, face to face conversation in so many ways. And I mean that's not totally true, but uh, I think that this is so powerful. And then the other thing we've got, I mean, shoot, let's just be honest now, even putting together an email, it's pretty tempting to click that AI button. And so then you get to the point where you just don't even have to think about responses. We get lazy about that. And then all of a sudden you're in a conversation or you're on a podcast with the camera shining in your face and you got to go, oh my goodness. You know, I've got to be able to engage like this is real time. And so we've got to be, I think, as sales professionals, really, really careful not to get too sloppy about this with all this technology around us. Would you agree?

Speaker A: Oh yes. I mean really, what is the joy of selling?

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: My background is English literature and theology, so I wasn't really headed to be a salesper.

Speaker C: But I love it.

Speaker A: I discovered when I put aside my ego and my desire to make money, I guess, or my stress to make money is that you're building a relationship, you're allowing someone to trust you. And some people trust you quickly, but other people have a long time before they're going to trust you. But it's all about how you show up and a lot of your other guests have talked about being authentic.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: So an email is not, if you're using AI, it's no longer authentic.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: The other thing that's important to remember is that in our voices is our conviction. Our voices holds our enthusiasm. Our voices tell somebody we are real. And when we pull that out of the sales process because we're sending an email or we're using third party software to send stuff out, we are losing opportunities. I truly believe that. Uh, because they don't hear that, hey, I've created something. If you're an entrepreneur, I've created something and I'm so excited about it. And I want to tell you about it because I think it's a good fit for what you do. That's what needs to be part of the conversation.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: We have to continue down this journey because there, there's a lot it, there's a lot of sales people in general. So I'm going to take the, the age gaps out of this. I'm just going to say in general, we'll make a general statement. Well, I'm not going to lean towards the young or the old. To say exactly crosses all generations is I really believe, and this is my thought on this is we're losing our voice because so many people are hiding behind technology. So speak to the people who are possibly hiding behind this and say, hey, you know what, you gotta find your voice because you got to become conversationally competent because you got to blend both of these together. So speak to the people that get the ebgbs and this nervousness because they got to pick up the phone and have conversations. Talk to those people and walk us through maybe some exercises or something they can do to start getting better prepared for this.

Speaker A: Well, there's so many things that we can do. Um, one is put your phone away for put. Put your texting and your emails away for the weekend and call, speak to people close to you first. Tell um, your friends that weekend that if they want to make a plan, they need to call you or you'll call them or something like that. So that you're actually start with things that are comfortable, you know, family members and friends and start having more conversations. There's lots of bars now that ban phones and go there. Have a great time in the evening talking to each other. But also for leaders, um, sales managers and so on. Allow your team to practice these skills with each other. That should be part of maybe a weekly sales meeting or there are games that I can tell you about that allow you to do this so that you're using open ended questions and you're actually learning something about your colleagues that you didn't know before because of what you're asking them. And then it also helps with your listening skills too.

Speaker C: I'm just smiling, thinking about our sales managers that are listening in going, why don't you call your salespeople instead of texting them all day, why don't you pick up the phone and talk to them? So you piqued my, uh, curiosity. I'm curious now, Mary Jane, about these games that you use to help people develop conversational competence. What does that look like?

Speaker A: Well, uh, it's quick because sometimes I'm just doing a one hour workshop. Uh, the question is, uh, what is. So you pair yourself up. There's two people and one asks the other in the first part, what is one item on your bucket list or a dream or ambition you have for your life? So they ask that question, but then they cannot say anything after that. And they even try not to have any facial expressions. The other person has a foam in it to answer that question. But the person who asked it has to stay quiet. Those are very awkward conversations. And that is email.

Speaker C: Ooh, okay, I just saw it. Yes. Oh wow.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Then they switch places and now they have four minutes. The question is the same, but now the person who asked the question has to keep asking questions to make sure that the conversation goes for four minutes. And uh, all of those questions have to be open ended. So they're building the conversation off what the person says and asking something else. But it has to be open ended, not a yes or no. And at the end of the exercise, first of all, the room gets really noisy. People have a great time doing those four minute conversations. And then I'll say, did anybody in the room learn something about their bucket list item or their dream or ambition they hadn't thought of before? And there is always somebody who has.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: And for me, when I sell, that's the moment I want to create. Because I believe that people sell themselves if you ask them the right questions. If they're interested in your product or service and you keep asking them great questions, they tell you, well, this is a challenge we're having or this is a problem we're trying to solve and once they say it, they can't take it back and you've done what you intended to do.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Oh, I really like this. I'd love to be a fly on the wall. When you do this, I think that would be actually pretty hilarious. But it just say, what'd you say?

Speaker A: Go ahead and make use of it.

Speaker B: I think it's great. But I want to, I want to zero in on something because I really believe in something you just said. I think we've lost the art of asking really good open ended questions. And I just don't know where it started or how it's going to become better, but I really think we've lost the art. Can't say everybody, but there's people out there have just lost the art of having really good open ended questions. Why do you think that is?

Speaker A: Well, I think that technology has not given us the four day work week. I think we're all feeling more like we have to hurry, like we're under pressure, like our inbox still has stuff in it or whatever it is that makes us feel like we have to be in a hurry. And um, yeah, so we feel that pressure and we, and we don't allow ourselves to say, I've got Larry and Darryl in front of me and all I want to do is have a great conversation. Everything else can wait.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: And I think that's the space you need to be in to create trust and a strong relationship and really allow a prospect to hear what you do and get excited about it.

Speaker C: Uh, so true. And you know what's so funny is the thing that's distracting you from the conversation is all the email and all the other noise out there as well. But can we learn to be, uh, can we learn the power of being present and being in the moment? And I loved how you started this with just the joy of being able to have, you know, human interaction and all of that. We've got that all available to us all day and for our friends who are stressed out. And there's a lot of sales professionals that are stressed out and uh, you know, struggling in all kinds of ways. Let's have some more conversations. It's what we're supposed to be doing.

Speaker A: It is. And it's hard. I understand it's hard. What I do, um, is I'll take on either a huge cold calling project, uh, every year or several small ones because if I was still teaching what I taught 20 years ago, I wouldn't be making any money at all. Um, so I recently spent time with a very young woman. She's 20 and starting her sales career and was really, really struggling. And so my path, I gave her my path to reaching someone for a conversation, which is the first step is to leave a voicemail. You're going to call them, they probably won't answer. That's okay. Mhm. Let them hear your enthusiasm, your energy, your desire to connect with them and then tell them that you're also going to send an email in case that's easier for them. And as soon as you hang up on that call, send that email with the subject line. Uh, my voicemail earlier today, because that gets through spam filters because it's seen as an ongoing conversation and they can go and listen to your voicemail then if they want to, and in that email set up the 15 minute conversation with your calendly or whatever appointment app you're using. So this young woman took that away, uh, from a coaching call on Monday and on Wednesday she said to me that she'd made five calls and two people have booked meetings.

Speaker B: Gotta like that, gotta.

Speaker A: And it's not. I mean, it means that, you know, back in the 80s, building that business, I had days when I dialed the phone 110 times. You can't do that now because you're making the call, you're sending the email, you're connecting on LinkedIn, you're doing these steps, but.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: You're building relationships. So it doesn't matter. The numbers don't matter as much as the connections. Right?

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: There's some there, there's something I gotta zero in on because it's gonna debunk the myth that, that I have out there about leaving voicemails. Don't leave voicemails, leave them and so forth. You know, I'm a big, big, huge proponent of leaving voicemails.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And here's why. Because they can hear your voice, they can hear your conviction. Right. You're peaking curiosity as long as you don't deliver it in some monotone. Right. Because you're reading a script and all of that. But there's. If you can lean into these voicemails with some excitement and with some passion, they may not return your call, but they're going to be excited that the time that they actually, whether you pick up the phone and they do answer the next time or you coordinate a virtual call or something like that, they're going to be excited about this. I urge people, leave voice messages, leave them.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you're right, it is about our voices, contain who we are on some level. That's a bit dramatic. But m. But it is about your enthusiasm. It is the fact that you're not a telemarketer. They can hear that you chose them You've done your research and you're calling for a reason you believe to be true and that, you know, that makes all the difference in whether they meet with you face to face. Click that link and make a 15 minute meeting appointment on an app. It doesn't matter, but it makes a big difference. If you call and hang up, you're a telemarketer and they're not going to answer the next time you call. Bottom line, none of us do that anymore. Right. If you don't, leave me a message. Sorry. We're in luck.

Speaker C: That's right. At the beginning, uh, you were speaking about curiosity. You also talked about, I think, boundless empathy. Boundless empathy. How does this play into the art of conversation?

Speaker A: Anything can happen once you have a meeting with someone. Um, and what I run into all the time is a lack of follow up. Right. Well, they're not calling me back. It must be no kind of attitude. But maybe they got back to the office and discovered the company was going through a merger and so now they have nothing to say to you. It's not, no, it's just, sorry, something's happened and I can't make that decision. And people don't tend to call us or email us to say, I can't make a decision yet. Uh, they wait till they have something to say.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Or maybe they fell ill or a family member fell ill. Or we can go on and on and on. And yet so many of, uh, the teens I work with, they won't follow up. So what I've dug into is the difference between pestering and persistence. So, uh, a pest is Covid or Ants in the Kitchen. Persistence is loyalty, dedication, organization. So we all count on people who are persistent. And that's what sales is about. It's about being persistent. And if you're not persistent, then you're telling them that they weren't that important to you. So you have to bring that empathy piece in instead of saying, oh, they're not calling me back, they don't care about me. That, you know, that's. Maybe that's true once in a while, but mostly it's something's going on in their life and that's okay, stick with it.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: You know, it's so interesting because, uh, I think it's inflicted all of us at some point in our careers is all the stories we tell ourselves on why that email's not getting returned or why that voicemail is not getting returned. And it just sends us into this massive spiral, I think, because we're attached so much to them calling us back and all that because we're making it about us. It goes back to the very beginning. It's not about us, it's about them.

Speaker A: That's right. And if I, if somebody goes silent on me and the communication is, you know, the phone and email. In the email I'll say, um, how does this fit in with your current priorities? When should we speak again? And often I get a response about 85% of the time with that. And they actually tell me, well, I came back to the office, two of our partners have moved on, we're overwhelmed. To get back to me in August, you know, good, fine.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, that was so that, that, that.

Speaker B: Hey, I'm gonna remember I'm powerful.

Speaker C: Mary Jane, you gotta say that again.

Speaker B: Yeah, you gotta repeat that one. I'm gonna.

Speaker A: Okay, so where does this, whatever it is fit in with your current priorities? When should we speak again or when should I follow up? So make sure it's open ended.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Where and when? And you'll get, you won't always get an answer, but I get an answer about 85% of the time. And because they feel guilty for not getting back to me, but they don't want to call me and say I'm sorry. I'm really right.

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, what's the point of that? That's such a powerful. That is pure gold right there, Mary Jane. Well, what an amazing conversation we knew is going to be. And I know all of our friends are asking the same question. I'm asking how do I get more Mary Jane in my life?

Speaker A: Well, you can find me@thephonelady.com and on LinkedIn. I'm the only Mary Jane Cox on LinkedIn. And uh, there's lots of resources at, um, at my website and I did on the 10th of March just finish my um, survey on real time conversations in the workplace. And so that's available for as a download. Yeah.

Speaker C: Awesome.

Speaker B: Thanks for hanging out with us.

Speaker C: What an incredible.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me. It's been so much fun.

Speaker C: It's great. I hope this isn't our last conversation and I have a sneaking suspicion it won't be. Really appreciate you sharing your heart with us today. Super cool, Mary Jane. Uh, awesome. What a fun conversation about conversations. Pure gold, uh, all the way through. But that line at the end, uh, if you are listening, you want to rewind and write that one down. As you like to say, Larry, that's a writer downer right there. And this art of conversation so, so critical and what an amazing way to stand out in a world where people are hiding behind their keyboards.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Which is, you. Uh, know, I just urge everyone, we practice so much on trying to be really fluent with technology. How about we take as much effort into putting into practice conversations? Imagine taking both of those and putting those together. Take as much practice and as much intentionality as you all do in trying to figure out technology. Take some of that energy and put it into practicing the art of having really good conversations.

Speaker C: Speaking of great conversations, Larry, how's this for a segue? We've got some great conversations coming up on the podcast throughout the whole season. You want to stay focused throughout this summer, uh, make sure to tune in and do us a favor. Share selling from the heart with one of your favorite clients or your friend in the. In the, uh, office or cubicle right next to you. We are building a global movement of authenticity and trust right here in this profession we all love. So thank you for joining us today. Till next time, keep being genuine, keep being authentic, keep building trust, have great conversations, and most of all, sell from the heart.