“What’s Next for Sales Pros in the Snow & Ice Industry?”

Speaker A: Uh, welcome to the Sales Talk Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting both seasoned sales professionals and the next generation of up and coming talent in the service industry. Hosted by sales leaders Bill Butz from Outdoor Pride, Landscape and Snow Management, and David Lammers from Garden Grove Landscape and Snow Management. Each episode features in depth discussions, experiences and advice straight from the heart of the industry. The show is brought to you by Metal, always copied, never duplicated.

Speaker B: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Sales Talk Show. We're recording live here from the Snow Posium in Ontario. We're gonna do a compilation, uh, show today of some of the, the, uh, important people and guests we met. I'm here with my co host, David. David, how are you?

Speaker C: I'm good, man. I kind of feel the same way. Important people, you know. Look at this. I'm with you in person.

Speaker B: In person.

Speaker C: Amazing. That's great. I don't get that change too often.

Speaker B: Looking forward to listening to our guests.

Speaker C: Absolutely. Enjoy the show. Well, we're excited to be here today with, uh, Metal representative Steve. Uh, of course, we're here at Landscape Ontario at the snow symposium. And it's such an exciting time. Of course, it's July, so it couldn't be a more appropriate time for us as well to be talking about snow and ice in July. Right. Because we always talk about Christmas in July. Right. So why wouldn't we talk about snow in July?

Speaker B: It's unbelievable. I had a chance to stop over at the booth and, uh, Steve and I had a good conversation, and it's so, uh, uplifting to see people so interested in learning about the new technology. So I know you're gonna have a few words to say about that, which is great.

Speaker C: We're so excited to have Steve here. Of course, Metal is our title sponsor for the Sales Talk Show. Uh, of course, the sales Talk show is brought to you by Metal Plus. And so we're just so excited. Uh, Garden Grove, of course, as a company, we are full metal users. I know Outdoor Pride is a full metal user. Steve, we're excited to have you on the show today and we'd love to hear a bit about your story, your story with Metal. What makes you such an amazing sales solutions manager? Right. And, uh, how you're bringing results to, uh, the industry?

Speaker D: Well, with Metal, um, Plus, I've been with Metal plus closing, uh, in on five years now. I have a background in engineering, um, electrical, uh, but it's, uh, I did a lot with, uh, mechanical engineering before I came to Metal, uh, plus. And funny enough, uh, my son is now the um, mechanical, um, engineer for Metal plus, uh, so he's doing a lot of the designs now. Um, so with Metal Plus, I cover Ontario for Metal Plus. Um, I look after um, probably one of the largest dealer networks, uh, in the company. We have um, approximately 180 dealers across Ontario that I look after. Um, all the individual M sales reps and dealers come to me for the pricing as well as sizing and to be able to make sure that they got the right product for the right piece of equipment. Um, Metal plus, we're always innovating, always, uh, bringing out new designs and new sizes and new technologies. Uh, between our engineers and Jimmy Vaniel, who's our uh, owner, um, always coming up with new and innovative products, uh, to battle snow.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's uh, it's, it's, it's amazing because we were, we were chatting about the Metal plus product and I think it's a little bit, um, maybe unknown to the client how beneficial the technology you guys are investing in makes their properties safer. Uh, there's a big element of safety and what we do. And I think as the industry continues to evolve, there's a lot of technology advances. But I think what Metal plus has done is they've stepped up their game on bringing the best product to market that keeps the properties as safe as possible. Talk a little bit about that.

Speaker D: Yeah, well, so like when Jimmy designed our Live Edge, what one of the big benefits of that, besides getting a, a uh, much more efficient scrape, was also uh, not damaging product, uh, like uh, properties and uh, parts of uh, whatever you're plowing. So with our Live Edge, it floats backwards and folds backwards on compression springs so you're not damaging like uh, manhole covers or uh, causing bigger um, holes in like potholes. Uh, uh, you're not adding to that so it's producing a safer surface. Also you're scraping right down to the asphalt for the most part. Which, um, oh, now you, now you're not going across it multiple times and, and producing extra ice. You're basically getting rid of everything with one scrape. And uh, and also you're using less salt when you're using uh, Live Edge. So salt is, you know, many municipalities are trying to get away from salt because of the um, you know, how bad it is for the environment and the water, uh, tables and uh. So if you can eliminate 50% of the salt that you normally use in your snow removal, well, it's a good thing and it's a cost savings as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, I know, I know. We did an uh, some, uh, we analyzed the production of the Van Wing unit. Uh, and it, it was eye opening to us how much more you could do, how many more acres you could cover. And I know everybody's struggling to find labor and you know, to afford machinery. Uh, we came up with a, you know, a result that showed that we would, you know, it almost replaces a half of a machine. You know, one Van Wing, uh, is you know, one and a half times as productive as a straight box, a regular uh, box. So that's just, that's just another way that the industry is moving in that direction is to give us the best. And uh, we know Metal plus has been in the front lines and we appreciate that.

Speaker D: We're, we're happy to partner with you guys. You guys do a great job for Metal Plus. Um, we, uh. One of the other things that a lot of clients, they, they ask me, you know, like it is a premium product, but it's the material that's the, the blades are made out of makes it the, the premium product. Uh, most of my competitors use regular steel. Uh, Metal plus uses AR400 steel. It's six times stronger than regular steel. So you're getting a product that's built to last, built with um, all the technology in it. We own the patent for the live edge, um, and also the powder coat paint. The finish on the blade will last for years and years. And uh, uh, one of the things that we showed off at uh, some of our uh, like the Landscape Ontario show was our painting ability. We have new uh, powder coat paint facilities. We can do print pretty much any blade for 385 bucks, almost any color. So uh, one of the things advances that our new factory is providing for us.

Speaker B: Wow, that's great. And that new factory is going to be opening up next year. Is that the, is the word still?

Speaker D: Yeah, it should be uh, early next year that the factory is complete. It's going to improve our automation, uh, a lot and uh, our ability to put a blade together in less than a day.

Speaker E: Wow.

Speaker B: Wow, that's going to be great. Well, we appreciate your time, Steve. I know it's uh, David, few last words. We appreciate your time coming over and jumping in with us and you got a busy booth over there. We got another hour. The show's going to be uh, going on for another couple hours. So um, if anybody can hear me out there, you know, stop by Metal plus booth. Hear this story live from, from Steve. And uh, we appreciate it.

Speaker C: Yeah, often copied, never duplicated. Thanks for joining us. Steve.

Speaker D: Thanks for having me guys.

Speaker B: Thanks. Take care.

Speaker C: Hey, fantastic everyone. We're here in Toronto at Landscape Ontario Snow Symposium. Of course, this is a really exciting time and we're huddling here around the uh, camera as well. We're recording live, uh, on the show floor here from the uh, snow Symposium. We're excited here today to have Jeremy Kirkham from Clintar Outdoor Services in Ottawa, uh, joining us. We're talking about sales, we're talking about, uh, snow, we're talking about leading our clients. And of course in order to do that we need information, we need knowledge, we need, uh, the things that fuel our ability to be great sales leaders and great business professionals. And so Jeremy, we're excited to have you today, joining us here, uh, on the sales talk. So tell us a bit about your background and your role too with Landscape Ontario, uh, as it relates to uh, how we even got to where we are today. This is great.

Speaker E: Yeah. So, um, my full time job is at Clean to our outdoor services operations and sales over there. Um, last year I came down to the SIMA symposium in uh, Pittsburgh. I met some people from Landscape Ontario, put this show on and they were looking for more people to join the committee. So I joined. Um, it was the first year, last year where it wasn't just at Landscape Ontario headquarters. Used to be about 200 people. They'd get maximum. Um, last year we had about 3, 300. This year they're saying 1200 people registered. So we had a vision to take it bigger. We don't ever envision it being as big as Saima, obviously because it's a smaller population in Canada. But our goal is to add education which we started this year, which was a big hit. We had 110 people. I think yesterday we had a VIP event. Um, and it's really Landscape Ontario does a lot of in the background. Um, used to be Carrie, now it's Heather running it. Um, and then there's five, um, just that large members, myself included, Chris Sacker, um, Chris Lamer and a couple others. Sorry, their names misplaced, uh, me. But we meet once a month. Um, we come up with ideas and we act on them. Like the Blue Jays thing just came out of the blue. We're like, let's try to do something fun. We check the schedule. Oh, there's a Blue Jays Yankees game. People would like to see that. Let's have a VIP event next year. We'll try to take it even bigger, hopefully draw more vendors because the vendors will bring the people in, bring in more education because, um, that's what we're here for, is to learn, develop people, and build our relationships. Right, Network.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And that's, of course, the goal of the show.

Speaker D: And.

Speaker C: And it's been great to see the development of the show. Course, Billy, uh, you know, the opportunity that the show does give back. Right. And of course, that's our goal with the sales talk show. And we were excited that we could have a role here, uh, with the Snow Posium. And we thank you, Jeremy, for that. Let's talk a bit about sales education. That and. And how we're able to propel our knowledge through this Noposium.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's. The sales talk show is a. Is a microcosm of Jerry and I's relationship. Uh, we met at an event, we chatted a little bit. We kind of, you know, mutually, uh, probably approached each other and said, what's going on? Who are you? And typically of a first meet. And then we stayed in touch. And, uh, the more we stayed in touch, the more we realized we had a, you know, similar kind of careers, I guess. Right. You're in operations. I was in operations. Now you're moving over to bd. I moved over to sales. So I think in a way I felt like, you know, maybe I'll just stay in touch with them. Maybe I can give him a hand. I think. I think that's been the case. And then when the educational session became, uh, part of your, um, to do list, I guess, uh, you reached out and I was happy to come up here and spend, uh, some time. And, you know, she has some knowledge. Uh, and it was just, uh. It was very. I was very, very impressed. I thought the program itself was. Was outstanding. The line. The list of speakers was the who's who of, uh, you know, industry information, which people can benefit from. So I appreciate the opportunity to speak. And, um. Yeah, just the sales in general. I think you made a point in your, uh, original introduction to me is you're an operations guy, but you have the ability to talk to a customer. So I thought that was really unique, uh, but not unique in a way of successful salespeople. So I think you're gonna do great, and, uh, I hope to help you more as much as I can. And, uh, just. Just being here today is. It's cool to see people and meet more people from Canada.

Speaker C: Yeah, very much so. And Jeremy, you know, you. You have a passion for operations, and you have a passion for sales. And I like, to Billy's point, you know, it's. It's uh, it's a. It's not uncommon, but it's somewhat, you know, uncommon, uh, to see operations professionals move on and become sales professionals. But, you know, the power of knowledge is what propels successful sales professionals. And I think, you know, you recognize that, and I think that's the whole goal of the SNOPE Symposium too, is how can we continue to develop our skills and abilities as sales professionals, as operation professionals. Right. And as team members in our organizations, uh, with better knowledge and better information. And this has been a powerful, uh, example of that. Uh, you're on the board here at Landscape Ontario. You're in the snow group. You got some things you're working on there. Tell us a bit about. A bit about that.

Speaker E: Yeah, so with the snow and ice sector group, we're working on certification. So there's going to be five levels. Level one's been approved. Um, we actually ran a course at our shop in Ottawa. Um, so basically you sign your people up, utilize the Landscape Ontario grow program, so it actually doesn't cost you a penny. You get all the money back, the people are certified, and then when level 2 comes out, same thing. A lot of people don't realize Landscape Ontario just isn't like Shows or Milton. They run so many programs that we can all take advantage of. And until two years ago, I didn't know any of it existed. I think many companies don't know it exists. So, um, like, I live five hours from here, but they pay for me to drive down here to learn from people like Billy, yourself and Landscape Ontario. And even like last night at the Blue Jays game, we're all standing around talking about stuff. I met a lady who runs, um, E.I. ah, sub program. So you can essentially save 33 of your labor in the winter by running an E.I. sub program. I didn't even know that existed. So we're gonna have a meeting next week. I'm gonna cut my budget by 33%. Right to the bottom line, right? Yeah, yeah, that's what we all need. Yes. Everything's getting more expensive, wages are going up. And unfortunately, there's still that race to the bottom mentality for a lot of companies. And if we're not making the revenue, we can only control our costs to make sure that we're getting the net profit well.

Speaker C: And that's the power of networking, right? And Billy, you know, we talked about that in, in some of our past episodes, that as it relates to having the. The value out of your network, right? Your network being your net worth. You know, there's a good example of building network that ends up helping your net worth. Um, Billy, you have a passion for people. You have a passion for the industry, as Jeremy was just sharing with us, right, The. The. The opportunities that are within the trade right now to grow and propel individuals and companies to engage trade members into the. And team members, the. And the youth into our organizations.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, it's a great example of someone, you know, seeing a problem and being able to volunteer and. And offer their. Their passion and help create a solution. You know, your time, Jeremy, you know, you say you get paid for it, but I'm sure you have to, you know, dip out of some. Some time to be able to get here and to do the things you're doing. So it is, it is really a. You know, it's really a. It's a. It's honorary to see. To see you do that, you know, to see you really step up and do that. And more people probably would do that if they knew there was an opportunity. So continue to spread the word, continue to do what you're doing, get, uh, out there and, you know, just keep banging the drum of, you know, how much. How much, uh, we need in this industry to continue to grow. There's a lot more that can be done, and I think we're on the right path. And I think with people like you and your fellow board members, I think it's, uh, the future's bright, really is. So thank you for all you do, and thank you for, uh, being with us here today, because, uh, this is what it's all about, getting the word out.

Speaker C: Yeah, we certainly appreciate what you're doing here. You mentioned the grow program. You mentioned, you know, the opportunities that exist for the trade. And, uh, we're just excited to continue to see the growth in the trade, you know, and giving back, you know, and the opportunities that are on both sides of the border. There's so much happening in the trades. You know, I know that outdoor pride, you guys did a lot. And Mike Rowe was part of giving back, you know, with the whole program that was there. And Jeremy, you know, of course, you. You know, the things we're doing here in Ontario and Canada Wide. And you talked about certification, too. And so we're just excited to see the trade developing and to see the investment that's going into the. Into the programs.

Speaker E: Yeah, I would say, like, the last five years, like, I've been in this 20, 25 years. I was just a kid when I started. I'm not a kid. Anymore, obviously. Um, it's changed a lot in the last five years. Right. Like. Like, Bill, we met on LinkedIn. We met on LinkedIn. Um, Bill, as the gentleman, works for Mikey Santa Lucito. Talk to him all the time. Instagram, LinkedIn. We've met once in person, but we talk, like, at least once a week. Another sales guy helps me because sales isn't my big thing. Operations was, but then I became sales. Now I'm m back into operations and sales. And it's just people are willing to help. You just have to get out there and network with them. But also, don't just take. You have to give back. Like, yeah, you're right. Sometimes some of the money comes out of my pocket. My owners are very good, though. Um, but it's an investment not just in myself, but in the entire industry. Right. Because there was a time when people thought the vest is like, a dirty industry. You know, it's a transient. They're. They're here for two years till they find something better. When you can make a living, you can make a career in this, you know, like, I get a free truck. I get a good salary. I get benefits. You can build yourself up to that as long as you.

Speaker C: Someone's paying for that truck.

Speaker E: That's right.

Speaker F: Yeah.

Speaker C: You know, but it's amazing. You talk about giving back, right? And we need to give to get. Right. Talk a bit about a bit about that in the peer group that. That started here and your role within the peer group and. And that concept of giving to get to giving to get back.

Speaker E: Yeah. So about two and a half months ago, Evan from SIMA reached out to Steve Brewer first. Um, he works out at Kitchener. Asked if he wanted to join a Simon peer group. Then he reached out to me. We both kind of had the same answer. Yeah, we do, but why can't we do a Canadian one? He's like, oh, we never thought about that. And then he's like, okay, let me talk to some people. And then a couple days later, he's like, hey, we got to go ahead. Let's start this. How many people can we get? Like, well, let's aim for five. Well, within, like, two hours, we're at 11. And we're like, hey, let's cap it at 11. And they're from all different cities. There's two of us from Ottawa, I think, some from Toronto. Multiples, like, uh, your guys. Shane's on it. We meet once a month. We talk a lot more than that, but we have a formal meeting once a month over Zoom and then once a year, we plan to meet at someone's facility. We're meeting up tonight for dinner. We met up at Saiba. And we don't talk numbers. Like, not company secrets, none of that. But we lift each other up, and we like, okay, I've used this product. Have you used this? How's your labor situation? Is there any tricks you can share? And it's just like, for years, there was, like, a cloak of secrecy in this industry, but now it's coming off, and we got to keep pulling it off and just share with everyone because there's so much work for everyone, and we can all make good living. The owners can make money, the employees can make money, and we need to invest back into that. Like the Mike Rowe thing you guys did. And then we've teamed up with Urcher now. Um, so every hat we buy for our team, five bucks goes back to the trades, you know? Uh, well, we're not buying millions of hats or anything, but five bucks. Five bucks, it adds up. It starts filling the pond, Right?

Speaker D: Sure does.

Speaker E: And we all need to do that in this industry to make it grow. And for the next generation to see they can come in here, it can be a career. They don't need to work on computers their whole life, because some people don't want to be on computers.

Speaker F: That's right.

Speaker E: They want to be tradesmen working with their hands. That's right.

Speaker F: That's right.

Speaker C: Billy, talk just briefly about the cloak of secrecy. I know you guys did a really neat thing at Outdoor Pride even last fall. You know, you had an opportunity to bring in, uh, the trade to. To Outdoor Pride and remove that cloak of secrecy. Talk a bit about that.

Speaker B: Yeah, we, um. We work closely with Cheryl and the team, and we, uh. Each fall, I think it's September, uh, time frame, they do what's called a, uh, SIMA behind the curtain, and they businesses, uh, open up their doors and, you know, talk a lot about what's going on. And there was some numbers discussed, and there was some situations where we had competitors sitting in the room. And I think, you know, the challenge is, you know, how do those competitors use that information, whether they use professionally and try and build their brand up and build their pricing and their investment in people and equipment, or do they, you know, they undercut you and try and go win work for less money? I think it's the first, not the latter, uh, because I saw the people in the room, and I've been, you know, chatting with them since. So, yeah, I mean, Jeremy, it's A great opportunity for you to continue to um, you know, spread the word through your network. You know, each of those 11 companies, I'm sure they have other people they're talking about what you guys are doing. So I bet it's, it's double that. Even though you guys think it's 11, it's probably 22 to 30 companies that are getting the benefit of your meeting. So. Good for you, man. That's, that's, that's great stuff. Uh, you know, and Simon does a great job. Evan and, and the team and the outreach team, um, they're doing stuff that's different and I think that's what makes businesses successful is not doing the same old thing. Be different.

Speaker C: Yeah, be different. I like that. You know, there's enough work out there for all of us, you know, and we got to be, we got to be different, you know, in order to stand out. But at the end of the day we're all essentially doing the same thing. We have the same challenges, you know, and there are no secrets, you know, that there really aren't and you know, because numbers don't lie and the information is all really the same across all boards. It's just how you use it and it's, and it's how you um, are empowering and growing our organizations in our, and our clients, uh, with it and our teams and so Jeremy, we're excited that you could join us today like this. Thank you for being uh, such a supporter and such an encourager and such a hard working team, uh, member in our industry. Right as you're, as you're working through Landscape Ontario and working through your network and we're uh, excited to have you on the show today and being part of the sales talk show. So thank you so much for your role.

Speaker D: Thank you.

Speaker C: And what you're doing. And we're excited that Metal plus is our title sponsor for the show. Of course, as always, shout, uh, out to Landscape Ontario and SIMA as our alliance partners as well. Thanks so much for joining us today here on the sales talk show. Hey everyone. We're really, we're real excited to be here in Toronto of course at the show floor. Uh, here we are with special guest John AG from Pristine Property Maintenance. John, we're excited to have you on the show today on the sales talk show. And of course the goal of the show is to give back to the profession, to the trade and to coach, mentor and train the next generation. And that's why we're doing this. That's our passion. I know that's your passion. Talk a bit about your role. Let's talk a bit about pristine property maintenance. Who you are and what you do and where you are. Here of course, east of the city, such, uh, an exciting part of, uh, southern Ontario for sure.

Speaker F: No, I appreciate that, David. Yeah, no, we're uh, we're mostly started as a condominium maintenance company in 2005. So oddly enough it's our 20th year. So we're uh, we're not doing a Halloween party per se, but we're gonna, in October, uh, gonna have a nice get together with all of our staff. So we're about 160 people strong now, uh, mostly out of Ajax, uh, a lot of people now out of Brighton, uh, some out of Lindsay, some out of Huntsville. And then we do a lot of work in Peterborough as well. So, um, we're kind of all over the place. Then we do a lot of subcontracting as well, or brokerage, uh, brokering, uh, so we, throughout Ontario, we're doing a lot of Hydro One contracts, TD Banks, uh, and CIBCs, uh, and always bidding on those type of opportunities when they come up. Uh, out of Ajax. We are not just a property maintenance company. That's about half our company in Ajax. Uh, the other half is a mixture of tree services, fences and decks, landscaping, softscaping, fertilization, uh, weed control, waste management services, and then new division for us, end, uh, irrigation and uh, a new division for us is facility services. So we uh, we found there's a bit of a niche market. Who do I call to change the light bulb? Who do I call to, you know, repair that little tiny piece of vinyl siding? You um, don't want to call an electrician for a light bulb. You're going to not like the bill. Uh, so we found that ah, there's lots of, uh, opportunity to do that type of work. And so yeah, we've been, uh, like I said, going 20 years strong now and uh, very much enjoy, uh, every day being different. I don't think any day is ever boring. Uh, uh, except when I'm uh, getting inundated with too many emails perhaps. Um, but yeah, so that's kind of a bit of a history of us. So we started 2005 and mostly in the condominium world.

Speaker C: It's amazing. What you just described, you know, is very all of three of us here and we're all six foot plus, you know, we're sitting beside each other here, you know, trying to match up our sizes. All of our companies are different shapes and sizes you know, and it's really interesting what you shared. Your focus is service, right? Your focus is I need to do. We need to, when we do what. Looks after our client needs, you know, I know, Billy. That's what. That's what your focus is. Outdoor pride. Share a little bit about that with us, John. About what? How you, how you tailor that focus, right? You're obviously tailored to provide solutions to your clients, right? And so that's obviously your passion, and that's obviously your business model. Let's talk a bit about that as it relates to creating client success through tailored solutions.

Speaker F: So that's a very smart, uh, way of putting it. Uh, I actually look at more as an insecurity in some ways. So we started out as a grass kind of company, and then these jerk landscapers kept coming along be like, oh, we'll cut your grass cheaper. And, uh, we'll also do your interlocking, and we'll do, uh, your retaining walls, and we'll do all that for you. So we thought, well, we better start doing interlocking retaining walls. Uh, so it's funny how we started out because again, we were pure, just grass cutting, gardening, hedge trimming and stuff like that. Uh, and now we are basically doing everything that a condominium could possibly need. But I always joke that it almost started out of an insecurity because we didn't want to not, uh, be the one stop shop for our customers, because as soon as they start calling around, everyone else was doing everything as well. So we might as well play that game. And we got lucky. Uh, we got lucky in how it all happened. Just, uh, great time. I always joke with people that if I started in 2020, couldn't have done it. Insurance costs would have been too high. Truck costs would have been too high. Salters are too expensive now. Plows are too expensive. When I started out, a plow was $5,000. Now it's 18,000. That's not inflation. You know, that's not 20 years of inflation. 20 years of inflation would be nowhere close to that. So, you know, the world has definitely changed. And again, just a lot of luck, a lot of, uh, circumstance. But, you know, I do, I do really value, uh, how we deal with our customers. And I always joke with people. We're not a landscape company. We're not a property maintenance company. We are a customer service company. Uh, and I think just having that focus of, hey, without our customers, what's the point? Uh, you know, with our employees, what's the point? So, you know, as long as we can keep them happy and keep kind of growing in a, in a proper way. We grew way too fast at first. Uh, and that comes with its own bunch, uh, of headaches. So by actually growing in a, in a smart, proper way, you, you end

Speaker E: up way further ahead.

Speaker F: I think the long run.

Speaker C: John, I like the way you touched on, on that. And Billy, you know, it's amazing when we look at these models of our businesses are operating in just. John talked about insecurities, he talked about, you know, things that propel us and drive us. But I know you have some thoughts on this here, what John just shared.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, as a business owner, you got to wake up every day and look at the mirror, right? You're the owner, you're the leader, you're the, you're the tip of the spear. You got to figure out what's going to be the best path for your business. And sometimes you can get some friends and family to help coach that. But a lot of times it's, you're kind of a lone ranger, right? You're kind of in that, that world by yourself. And, and, and I think you, you're right. Our customers do tell us which way to drive our business. Uh, and you've seen some success, obviously, you've seen some success in certain, you know, corners of your business. And you kind of move those corners towards the center, right? The center line is, is what you want, you want to be in that right lane with all your offerings. And I think you're smart in doing that because I think it is about the pace of life now, right? So the property manager now would rather call one company and not find four different decision makers or salespeople to do four different line items, which, and there's probably a savings there too, right? Uh, you're probably offer them an economy of scale to be that one stop shop. So I think it's really, really smart, good business model. And yeah, I mean those smaller companies, those smaller companies probably aren't here, right? They're not here educated, not here elevating the game. They're not here bringing their knowledge to a higher level so they can continue to grow by, you know, profit's not a dirty word, right? Companies need to make profit to stay in business. So if they're here, they learn how to be more profitable so they can apply that to, you know, being a better service provider. So I love the, I love the model you put together. I love the way you grow in the business. And um, you know, it's great. And I know you're doing a lot of work for the uh, for the association too, right? You're part of the uh, you're part of the networking group that Dave was talking about earlier. Talk a little bit about that networking group and what it all means.

Speaker F: For sure. I want to respond to one thing you said there at first. So uh, property managers want to have one call. So that's also an interesting phenomena. When I started this business most property managers had four or five properties. Now they have 10 or 12. So again it's, it's not inflation or it's not, you know, it's, it's not cost of living in a lot of ways. It's just everyone is being overworked and underappreciated and uh, and that's a, that's a really uh, interesting uh, comment you had there that makes me think about that. I never really think about that anymore. They are, they have so many more properties to deal with. So with regards to landscape Ontario. So yeah, I'm very uh, very honored to be a part of it. Uh, so I am the snow and ice rep for the provincial board. I am also the chair of the workforce development uh, committee, uh, and I'm also the president of the Durham chapter. So uh, landscape material works in kind of sectors and chapters. Chapters are by region, sectors are by industry. So you know Alan, I just saw sat down, he's ah, he has a lot to do with the uh, the turf sector. Um, so, so he represents them and then does a lot as well with cnla. So everyone in Lansing material doesn't necessarily wear one hat. They all are very much involved in different aspects. But I just get so much out of it. Um, I started uh, to start with Lansing material to save money on insurance. That's all I cared about. Uh, landscape material seemed like a good way uh, to help me save money on insurance because again we're talking to the province, we're trying to get help with all the uh, terrible liability issues that we're having on to. So if I can be a part of that and help uh, help the industry get better, uh, get more educated, meet uh, a standard, uh, do things properly then way ahead. Um, but yeah, it's taken, taken eight years now uh, of kind of uh, going against uh, a wall. But uh, especially under Joe Salami's uh, leadership we've done so much more in the last few years. We hired a consultant that had a great in with the uh, province. Um, so that also I found uh, was very helpful. So slowly and steadily we're getting there. But a lot of it has to do with just, we got a really good team. Um, so we talk about our employees as teams. Well, at Lansky Montero, we have a really good team of people that all have the same goal. Um, so, you know, everyone's in it, I think for very good reasons. They're trying to better the industry while also helping their own companies because, you know, we all grow together. So.

Speaker C: Yeah, you make a really good point. We all grow together, you know, and, and something that Billy, you said is that profit's not a dirty word. I love that. You know, it's really true. I heard, I heard once that we need profit in our businesses to breathe. Right? 10 profit is not a bad thing.

Speaker D: It's a good thing.

Speaker C: And, uh, if anyone's listening to me here today, 10 profit, you need that to breathe. Don't be afraid to tell your staff we need 10 profit minimum just to breathe. Right? It's like oxygen to the business. Um, the other thing that I heard you shared too, John, and it comes from what you shared, Billy, is that we need to understand that our roles in business is to help our clients. You talked about the fact that our clients are overworked and they are, um, needing help from their vendors. Uh, for us as service providers, our role is to not only just provide the service, but to provide the support. You know, how can we continue to support our clients with better information, better knowledge, helping get ahead with proactive. Right. Education and learning. And I know that, that John has been a big part of the goal of this show and the snow symposium that Simon puts on, but also the snow posium here on helping educate the trade. Right. So that we as, as individuals, as service providers can becoming sorry that we can become more educated, better, but knowledgeable to be more effective in leading our clients and supporting them. I think it's so important and I'm really, really grateful. We're really grateful for the efforts that are being put in here through landscape material.

Speaker B: And from you, John, I, I definitely see the need, um, as contractors and service partners, to educate our clients on what's new and upcoming in the industry. I think we do it, um, in an rfp, an RFP opportunity. We get a chance to, uh, you know, tell the customer about what we do. Great. And it's like a small form of education. But I would love to see the, uh, organizations like Saima and like Landscape Ontario host a property manager training where we could teach them some of the best practices that they should know. They're young they're new to the industry. They, there's not really a vehicle or avenue for them to learn about this trade, this industry. And if we're the ones doing it, we should be the one educating them. So I'm looking forward to talking to you guys more about that. Martin and I at Simon were talking about it. How can we get our property managers to understand the timeline that we go through to onboard a new client? You know, someone says, oh, we're going to go out to RFP on September 1st. I'm like, September 1st. We're closed on September 1st for new business. Why don't you go off RFP May 1st, give us the summer to work on it. And that's just something we need to do as, as, as business leaders. And we know the answers to the quiz. Let's share it with our customers. So excited to see that kind of take some shape. Whereas, you know, maybe next year we have a, a sidetrack that's educationally and including property managers.

Speaker F: But it's so funny you mentioned, uh, property manager. So one of my property managers was here today and yesterday. Uh, so he's a higher up in the sourcing department at uh, one of the big, uh, management firms or facility management firms we work with. I was so happy to see him. He's a great guy. Uh, his name's Steve. Uh, but, uh, it was great to see him here and it was great to see him walking around the show and learning about all the different aspects, uh, of our business. Because most of the time they have no clue. They just want the snow gone. They just want the grass cut. They don't actually care how it happens. So it is great to see that some of them are taking it seriously and trying to get educated. And that's not the first time I've seen him at Snowposium. Um, so it is good to see that happening.

Speaker B: That's great. That's a great outreach by, you know, the Snow Posium marketing team and everybody that's putting this information out there. You know, there was a small, uh, you know, outreach through my marketing channels that I was speaking up here today, but it really didn't resonate with people in, in the United States. I'm up here in Canada.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: Ah, where's that again? But, but it, you know, in, in, you know, reality is those people could spend a couple hours here and learn a lot in a small amount of time. And I think that's the world we've, we've walked into. Uh, whether we like it or not, we all live in, you know, uh, segments of 30 seconds of learning.

Speaker G: Right?

Speaker B: We're learning on social media about things. We stopped, you know, we stopped reading newspapers. We're waiting for the 32nd tweet to come out right on X. So I think, you know, as we continue to, you know, expand this, uh, growing, uh, learning environment, I think including our customers would be awesome.

Speaker C: You know, I think about all the trades, you know, H vac, plumbing, electrical, you know, all the things that are, are all the service trade, you know, we, we have a role to play as, as service providers for the very thing we just talked about, RFP writing. You know, there's things that are happening here at Landscape Ontario and the work that the Snow Group's been doing, even as it relates to legislation, you know, the things that matter to our clients. We need to help our clients with putting together the RFPs. We need to help our clients with understanding what is a fair contract that represents both sides, what is a, a contract that protects them and also protects us as their contractor.

Speaker E: Right.

Speaker C: And there's so much work going, uh, in on that as well. John, let's talk a bit about that because I know that you, Billy, too, have experienced that south of the border too, as you look to the, the legislation that's in place and the things that we have to do as companies to better ourselves, you know, and what do our clients need to know about that and how that relates to contract writing and RFPs?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's a, there's a, there's a big push right now because of the expense of it is the insurance piece, right? Insurance piece has got everybody's attention because it's a cost. And I think the risk of not having great insurance is giving people pause to say, well, what, what actually are we covered for? You know, we've seen a lot of claims come through, but we don't understand, you know, what happened. Just push it on the contractor. Push it on the contractor. Well, that's not really fair. Right. So I think there's a, there's a, there's a tremendous amount of momentum right now. Martin and his team are doing some great legislation and I think they're getting to common ground where there's an affordability and a, a separation of liability at some point. You know, really, it's probably never really separated, but it's a little clearer now. Um, and I think we need to get there because I think contractors, we, uh, need small contractors. There's not going to be a stable of, you know, 20, 30, million dollar companies. We need companies doing one and two million dollars servicing small properties, but they can't insure themselves. They can't find their way to afford insurance because it's been this blanket policy that, you know, it's just kind of one size fits all and it's not the case. So hopefully this legislation can kind of mitigate some of those smaller companies from being caught in that tailwind.

Speaker F: You know, uh, no, it's gotten so stupid to the point that, you know, you look at property owners and you're like, don't you feel you should have some responsibility? You know, we, we as contractors, our own worst enemies. We're signing contracts we should not be signing, but we want to put food on our plate, so we are doing this. But at the end of the day, you look at these contracts and we are responsible for everything that you can slip and fall on, uh, you can slip and fall on, uh, a pothole because they didn't maintain their asphalt. And that's somehow my responsibility. They're tripping and falling on concrete. That's somehow my problem to fix. They're tripping and falling on, uh, a piece of metal as you enter a building that, again, we didn't see, we didn't deal with. It's not part of our contract. We're still getting pulled into those lawsuits. So it's, it's gotten too far. It's, it's just too stupid at this point. So that's why, again, you're seeing such a lot of momentum. Again, great to see what's happening with sima, but with Lo as well, you're seeing so many people coming together to say, this is not fair, this is not right, and this isn't how it should be, and we're getting somewhere with the province. The premier's office is listening to us. So we're, we're being very successful in that respect.

Speaker B: So that's great. It's great to hear. And I think that's exactly the cases, you know, if you're, if you're being asked to support a bill, are you being asked to submit an email that supports a bill or call your legislature or call your premier? I think it's important. I mean, as you sit there in your computer, there's a hundred things you'd be doing. I think that should fall on the top of your list, say, you know what? I need to do this. So appreciate your comments on that. Appreciate your time today. This is exciting. We, uh, got a chance to meet yesterday at the, uh, educational sessions. Thanks for being the uh, moderator. That's not an easy job keeping all those uh, you know, hurting those cats as they say. Right. Keeping it all the Americans. There we go. I knew that was going to come out. I told you I was from Newfoundland. Come on, give me a break. Generations. But I still got it in my blood, you know. So, um, but no, it was a great day to be able to share, uh, with 125 attendees yesterday, the part of the two day show and I know you were part of bringing that together. Um, I know it's going to continue to grow. So again thanks for being with us today. This is a great, great opportunity to share with our audience and, and listeners and followers that um, you know, people like you volunteering your time to make the organization better, to make the show better. So appreciate that.

Speaker C: Yeah, you know Billy, you hit the nail on the head and uh, we're proud Canadian, you know, American international show, which is really neat about this and so it makes it a lot of fun because there's so much cross border learning, you know, the things that we're learning from our friends in the U.S. right. We're able to take that knowledge home and, and vice versa, which is really cool. And John, your passion is evident. Right. And I'm so grateful, we're so grateful for your passion and the work that you're doing here with so many others. Right. I know that you met with our premier and so there's so much happening here in Ontario. Uh, I'm excited about that. We're excited about that as an industry and we're just bettering, you know, all tides, raise all boats. Right. And so that's the goal of what we're doing here. Uh, that the show, that's the goal of the sales talk show. That's why we're doing it. The sales talk show is brought to you by Metal plus and of course supported by our alliance partners, Landscape, uh, Ontario and Saima. And so thanks John for being with us here today. And uh, so we go forward and uh, if you want to do something better, what do you say, Billy?

Speaker B: Do it more often.

Speaker C: Well, we're so excited here to have Joe Salemi, of course joining us. Joe, you're the executive director, um, of Landscape Ontario and of course we couldn't be more honored to have had you on the show previously and again joining us today on this compilation episode, um, as our last guest on the episode today to round us out. But you've been such a tremendous partner in support of the show. We're grateful for Landscape Ontario's alliance support with uh, the show Metal plus of course being our title sponsor and of course Saima for sure. Uh, and so wonderful to be here today and of course being here at the snow symposium. Let's talk a bit about that.

Speaker G: Yeah, totally. Well, first of all I have to feel like I have to match your guys energy between Dave and Billy. Um, the energy that, that you guys put out and the passion that you have to raise, the professionalism and the skills and the ability of everybody that's listening in and watching in. I mean I feel like I have to match that energy. It's so good. I love the passion, the commitment to it.

Speaker C: It's our joy.

Speaker G: Of course.

Speaker C: That's why we're doing this. Right. We have to have an outlet.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: Everyone needs to have some kind of outlet for the passion that they have. Right. That's why Billy and I, we said, hey, what do we do with all of these ideas we have in all of our conversations?

Speaker G: Right?

Speaker C: How do, how do we put this energy into something? And that's where the sales talk show came from. Amazing, right? As a way of giving back to the trade. Right. To coach, mentor and train the trade and the upcoming. Right, the current and the upcoming for sure. And uh, so really excited about that. Of course that's your passion. That's why Landscape Ontario exists, to support the trade. Let's talk a bit about that. And of course why we're doing this, why Landscape Ontario is doing this and the benefit that it is of course to us as service providers, to our clients, to uh, our customers.

Speaker G: Oh my goodness. So I live and breathe this every day. Um, and the reason that we do this show, Snowposium, um, in July, like here we are talking about snow and ice in July, 30 degree weather. It's because we want to, with the entire community, raise the level of professionalism, the skill set, um, so that everybody has that underlying uh, confidence to go and book those uh, meetings and get those contracts. Yeah, everybody is, you know that and level set that for everyone. Uh, and this show really was born out of that. You know, Landscape Ontario Snow and Ice sector group said, okay, we have Congress, we do that in January and we have lots of uh, exhibitors that uh, cater to snow contractors. But we don't have anything just for us. And so how do we do that? There's no other organization in Canada that's doing anything for private snow and ice contractors. We have to take the lead on. Doesn't get better than that. Right. So you know the, the heart and the Passion was there. And so Landscape Ontario said, yeah, we're going to back this, and we're going to back it with as much resources as we can. Staff, time, uh, finances, you know, facilities, whatever we can do to raise the level of professionalism and, and the skill sets and the, uh, and just the ability of those contractors that want to be part of this, that are engaged. And look, yesterday at the conference when I asked how many in the room are new to Landscape Ontario event, and a third of the room put up their hand. So, you know, we know that there's lots of new, uh, blood coming into this sector, and we want to be able to help, help them get to where they want to be.

Speaker C: You know, I love that. You know, we just had John talking. We're talking about, uh, company sizes, right? And there's all different shapes and sizes of companies and different, different ways of servicing our clients. And that's the beauty of Landscape Ontario and all these shows and programs that LO is putting on. Because the sec. That the trade is made up of all different shapes and sizes.

Speaker G: Totally. You know, we think about. When you say landscape, I mean, who really thinks snow when we're talking about landscape contractors. But a lot of landscape contractors also do snow and ice. But then we're talking about landscape lighting and irrigation and nursery and retail, garden center, uh, grounds management. All these sub sectors of what we call the landscape trades make up this, uh, incredible industry that we work in.

Speaker C: It's so true. It's so true. We see that in the US we see that here in Canada. You know, let's talk a bit about the shared, the shared things that we see cross border and the things that are happening in our industry. Billy. And as a pickup of what Joe was just sharing.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I had the opportunity, um, Joe, to meet you last year. David took me on a tour of the. The market, and he said, I'm gonna take you by someplace. You're gonna be shocked. And I. We pulled in this back driveway, and all of a sudden it was this oasis of plants and this beautiful building. I'm like, oh, you maintain this place? He goes, no, this is our landscape, uh, organization. I go, what? This building's unbelievable. So we walked in and we got the grand tour and we, we bodged in on you, and you gave us your generosity, your time, and we appreciate that. But what I realized when I walked in that door is it was just bumping with people that wanted to, you know, grow the industry and grow the professionalism. I kept hearing that word, professionalism. And you showed me the conference room where the community could come in and have community meetings. And just the ability for this organization to be like a leader in service businesses. Right. We talked about it before as H VAC Electrical. I don't know if those organizations have an elo and maybe they do, and I don't know about it, but I'm proud to know you guys and I know I've talked to my group down in the United States about what you guys are doing up here and there's been some serious interest and I know we had a great connection, we have a great connection with Barton at Simer. And um, you know, the way that you guys have tailored your, you've expanded your program from a one, you know, one day, kind of shop field day type event at your facility to a, a trade show. And now trade show plus education is, um, it's really, it's really kind of cool. Um, I do want to say something though, and I think it's important. Um, we, David and I have been doing this show for a little over a year now, maybe 15, 16 episodes. And you were one of the first people to step up and support it. And we walked in today and um, you know, when you're doing something like this, you do it out of passion, uh, not out of, um, publicity. But we were able to, uh, see this brochure with David and I on the COVID and you recognizing that, um, um, that we were able to help you spread the message through our platform and we're very proud to do that. We're very proud to, you know, honor your, your hard work and your efforts and your team's efforts. I've met a bunch of your team members, uh, through emails and communications to be here today and super organized, super professional, and it's just, it's just a pleasure, it's a pleasure doing business. So we really, we really appreciate that.

Speaker C: Yeah, it was real, it was real humbling to see our picture on the, on the brochure for today and of course on the website front page. You know, Billy, I heard a staggering number recently that two for every five retiring trades members in our industry, two are being replaced. I think that's a number that came out of the US And I know it's probably very similar here in Canada on what we're seeing. Five, five retiring, two being replaced for five. Joel, let's talk a bit about that because that's a serious number and I know we're seeing issues here and I know Landscape Ontario is working really hard and that's why we're even here today.

Speaker G: Yeah, so, um, we recognize that and uh, the uh, provincial government recognizes that also. And our Ministry of Labor, uh, is dedicating, uh, in the neighborhood of a billion and a half dollars to bolster the skilled trades because they realize just how many are coming out of the skilled trades and just how few are coming in. So they've set up this grant, uh, it's the skills development fund. And it's specifically, uh, around recruiting people to the skilled trades, training them and then getting them employed. And so Landscape Ontario has been incredibly successful. I mean we are so fortunate to have the skill set on staff to be able to write these grant applications and be successful. Um, we have in the last five years we have garnered over, over $13 million, uh, to be able to recruit people to the industry to train them, uh, and then get them employed with our members. I mean this is incredible. And we're averaging 300, 350 people annually to come back into the landscape trades. So when, when we hear just how many people are leaving the skilled trades, we feel within the landscape trades it's our job, it's our responsibility to then pick up the pieces. So how do we solve this gap? Uh, and together in our partnership with the provincial government, we've been able to do this. Uh, and then we look to the future and say, okay, how can we set this up into perpetuity? And we look back to our history. Landscape Ontario's board of directors in 1994 purchased the property that we have now in Milton. They purchased 50 acres back then. And a few years ago, I'd say eight years ago, we severed half the property and used those funds to build the facility that you got to come and tour, Billy. Uh, and it's created a center of excellence for training for the landscape trades in Ontario. Well, the vision back then was for this property that we have in Milton to be the place for training in the province. And so we're taking that vision and we're 10xing it because we've been able to, we've been successful in another grant, so Skills Development Fund, Capital stream through the provincial government, um, which is taking these grant funds and applying it to being able to build or renovate training facilities. Well, as a, as a trade organization that represents a skilled trade, we were able to access to be able to apply for it. And wouldn't you believe it, we were successful. So we put in a $14 million application to build a brand new world class landscape trades training center. And this grant covers 40, uh, 9% of that. So we've got a budget from the provincial government of 7 million bucks. So it's going to cost industry 7 million to do this. Right. And uh, as a, as a trade organization we're so incredibly fortunate for the pioneers of this association to set us up for where we are. And then we're really utilizing the skill set and the expertise that we have on staff to scale this organization. So we're on par. Uh, in September we're going to be breaking ground to build a world class landscape trades training center. And really it's going to change the trajectory for training in the country. We're going to have people coming from British Columbia and Alberta and Saskatchewan and from the east coast all coming to our facility in Milton, Ontario to level up, to skill up, uh, and to be better at what they do every day.

Speaker C: You know that I love hearing that and it's so exciting to hear about what, what I can define when I hear that as shared partnerships. Yeah, right. When we look to the interprovincial shared partnerships, when you look to that partnership you just described with the province that's happening and what we have as an industry has a role to play with the shared partnerships. You know, we look at um, you know, the trade being, being aligned with, with various different components of partnerships, you know, of the colleges, the, the industry tying in with Landscape Ontario and all the various different um, service partner trades that are uh, that exist as well because there's so much happening. But Landscape Ontario has done so much for the landscape trade. And Billy, you know, you see that too in, in your role as a company but also with what's happening in the U.S. and Joe, you've had a big part of that too because you do so you have such a role as you course are leading what is a, ah, national association essentially is really what Landscape Ontario is. Uh, Billy, you play such an important role, ah, us side with, with our provincial and national side here.

Speaker B: Yeah, I spend a fair amount of time volunteering as well down in the states and on, um, on you know, ag and tech schools and, and learning what they're going through. And I hear the same challenges and, and they're, they're doing the same thing. They're, they're, they're funding their own development through grants and they're matching the money. But something you said kind of struck me is you know, change the trajectory of training. Um, and I think it's, it's up to somebody to do that. Right? Companies want more training, individuals want more training. We hear in every employee survey, what would you want more of training? You want to grow, you want opportunity to grow. So as an organization, if you're setting a standard to train people, it would be so easy for a company that could be a member of landscape Ontario to just mirror your training program inside their walls. Right. It's totally the perfect blueprint. It's like giving every company a playbook and say, if you want to have great training, do it just like this. And you could certify trainers. I could see this thing just going rampant out to the community. Community, which means better work, better quality of work, safer workers and people actually staying in the industry. I think that's the thing. I think poor training causes people to exit the industry because they're looking at it like I thought it was going to be a better role. I thought I was going to have more opportunity, but I never got trained to be, to get at the next level. I never got to be an account manager, never got to be an estimator. So I think you're setting it up for success. And, um, I'm excited to learn. I mean, like I said, I, I listen and learn from, from a lot of things that you've done. When I first visit today, seeing the show today, I mean, it's bigger than it was last year, you know, like Texas. Everything's bigger in Texas, right? I think everything's bigger in, uh, Ontario now, the way you put these shows together. So congrats for that. Congrats for your time today. I know you're busy, I know there's a lot going on here in the show and, uh, we were able to pull you away from something you're working on. So thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's really great. We're excited to have you on the, on, on today, Joe. And, and you know, one of the questions that I was, I was going to ask you, and it's a tough question, uh, but it was, what's the future of the trade? You know, and I think we're, we're seeing that happening right now. You know, what is the future? What does the future look like?

Speaker G: Yeah, when you asked me that, I thought, wow, what a giant question. But, uh, uh, maybe I'd like you guys to weigh in on this too. But uh, you know, we see the, uh, the onset of, uh, technology in a massive way. Um, and I think just in the base level physical activity within hardscape and all the productivity tools to allow crew members to have longevity in the hardscape business. Just that technology alone I think as that advances, we're going to see more longevity from people being able to do this work. But then we look at, from, uh, maybe a little more advanced technology and we're talking about AI and uh, and the onset of how that's starting to kind of percolate into the industry. And, you know, there's some things that are going to start to evolve, uh, and I don't think it's going to put anybody out of work. And I think. I think it takes people to activate AI. Right. So I think, you know, there's going to be an active role within that. Um, so what does the industry look like in 20 or 30 years? Gosh, it's probably not going to look anything like it does today. Um, there's probably going to be tons of technology, uh, that drives the equipment, but it's still going to take skilled people to do the work. We can't replace the incredible people that build this industry.

Speaker C: Yeah, I'd have to concur. You know, and as you share that, I'm thinking back to the comments that Billy we were just talking about as it relates to training. Right. So we're seeing equipment innovation, we're seeing, um, intelligence and we're seeing a lot of effort and training. And I think that that's going to be the key and the success of the future as well.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: Is all the training that's being done and what's going into the industry that way.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think, um, something that I've seen at the show and I've talked to people, I think I had some opportunities last night at the Blue Jays game. What a great event, by the way, that was hosted. Um, but the people I met, the people I engage with, I think, you know, one out of three had something to do with software or technology or, you know, uh, tools for these people to, um. I think the challenge that this industry presented to a lot of small businesses owners is they didn't own a business, the business owned them. And they lost track of their family time, they lost track of all their. Everything that they, they had a passion for. They was starved because they were running a loader for 30 hours because the guy didn't show up. So I think the industry is really trending towards helping these people get their lives back, which I think is important.

Speaker E: Right.

Speaker B: We're finding these people that are very successful, but they're successful with, you know, a lot of grit.

Speaker G: Right.

Speaker B: And you need grit, but you don't need that much.

Speaker E: Right.

Speaker B: Let's let these people live Their lives. You know, the, the work life balance thing is, is really coming to light. It comes to light in corporate America pretty quickly because it's easy, it's, it's kind of reachable and you can touch it. Work life balance for industry is tough. Work life balance for me when I was in my 30s was I worked my life balanced everything else. Uh, it's crazy now that these people have multiple, you know, their families, their daycare, they're multiple, you know, work opportunities for them. There's, it's just how much can they catch, how much can they um, manage? So I think helping them manage that with good training and letting their people elevate, if they can raise up their middle managers to do more, I think it's going to give them a life back and it's going to help businesses tremendously. That's really good point.

Speaker G: Yeah. There is a um, uh, you may have seen the book Dan, uh, Martell, uh, buy back your time. Right. And I think back to that book and um, you know when uh, you know in my life before Landscape Ontario I worked with a lot of contractors and uh, those that were struggling and you know that were uh, on the tools all day but then at nighttime, you know they were making sales calls and then they're trying to get their books done and working till midnight, 1, 2 o' clock in the morning said well what if you're able to get like a right hand and how much would that free you up to be able to spend time with your family and how much is that worth to you? Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's amazing.

Speaker G: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So yeah, I like that book recommendation. You know we're always looking for book recommendations on the show as well. Right. And buy back time.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's uh, it's so important. Right. And this is a hard working trade. A lot of all the trades are hard working.

Speaker D: Totally.

Speaker C: You know, and it's that work life balance that, that you touch on Billy, is so important. You know, I think we're going to see through innovation and, and, and technology and, and development and better. Right. Working smarter, not harder. Right. Through training. Right. I think we'll see, we're going to see growth in the industry. Right. We're going to see continued uh, interest. You know Billy, we were talking the other day about um, after, after uh, some um, college or sorry after university degrees. We're seeing a return to uh, get a uh, college in trades and for the encouragement for people to have a trade to fall back on, you know. And we're seeing even that return to the trades. Right. Back to the trades. Right. Which is so important. Right. And so I think as we continue to promote and encourage the trade, we're going to see that, Joe, you're doing a great job at that and in our industry and of course, everyone, as we support you. Right. As industry partners. Right. We're so grateful for Landscape Ontario for being an alliance partner of the sales talk show today and for joining us here live from the Toronto floor of Snow Posium. Excited to be here today. Thank you so much, Joe.

Speaker G: Thank you. Thanks for having me.