MOVING FROM LEADERSHIP TO ENABLEMENT AND BUILD IN RAPID GROWTH

Speaker A: Hey, everybody.

Speaker B: Welcome to the show. Or welcome back.

Speaker A: Hey, this is the show where we

Speaker B: interview the very best of sales leaders and understand first, why did they get into leadership? What's the distinction there between the motives of getting into sales leadership and, uh, what differences have they found? And what is working today to get the very most out of their team and have it be fun along the way. Uh, before we get in, make sure you check us out over@b2b revenue.com where you can learn about all the stuff that we're covering as far as driving revenue in today's world. And at the very end, I'll sum it up. Let's get into the interview.

Speaker C: No worries.

Speaker A: Hey, Adriana, thanks for joining us today. So we're getting started. Give us a little background on yourself.

Speaker C: Of course. Ben. Thank you so much for having me here today. So I am the director of enablement solutions at LevelJump, and while I've been in sales for over 15 years, an enablement I've been for five years, um, you know, systems engineers who, as, uh, many of us stumbled into sales by accident. And here I am trying to, you know, move the needle one rep at a time.

Speaker A: And why enablement?

Speaker C: To be honest, it was. It was a moment I. People laugh about this story. I had just given birth to my daughter, and I was in mat leave in Canada. We have a year off. So you have a lot of time to think while you're not sleeping. Um, so as, um, you know, as

Speaker A: opposed to when you are sleeping.

Speaker C: Exactly. At least you're thinking about it. Or because of the lack of sleep, you get very philosophical about your life. And I really said, uh, do I really want to go back to sales when I go back to work? And I started to think about all the things I loved about sales and all the things I didn't. But I didn't know what exactly I wanted to do. So when I went back eventually to my role, I was, uh, at Open Text, big, uh, Canadian company. I said, I really don't want to be selling, but I don't know, it's not the product, it's not the company. It's just basically the act of selling. And I was invited into a training and saw these people that were part of the sales enablement group in Open Text, and I'm like, I want to do what they're doing. So I got very into facilitation and all that, and I was very lucky to be able to do the internal transfer into another department. And that's how I got into enablement. And I have not looked back since.

Speaker A: And, um, did you like it immediately or.

Speaker C: I have to say it was a little bit of. I had a very sink or swim onboarding to enablement. Good, um, thing, you know, you come from the trenches. I did, I did like it, but it was difficult because I was supposed to go in to manage a program for a specific product line. And two weeks in my direction, manager, uh, resigned. And the director said, hey, guess what? There's an onboarding class starting, like in a week, and that program is all yours. Congratulations. So there I was, brand new, with no enablement training or facilitation experience, saying, okay, I have to own this. That week was what they had planned. They, you know, they had something as, you know, onboarding is a constant, you know, pivot of let's do it better next time. And I remember sitting through a few death by PowerPoint sessions saying, cannot do this anymore. There was one in particular that was very memorable because the gentleman had 92 slides and I thought it was never going to end. And I said, this has to change. But it was difficult. It was difficult because I came with a salesperson point of view, which might have been a good thing, but it was very difficult to maybe get stakeholders to buy into my ideas, uh, get people who are used to doing these stuff by PowerPoints do something completely different. So it was an uphill battle. I was learning. I had people in my team that were smart enough to help me. So it was good. But I have to say, I loved it. It was hard. I swam. Thank God it didn't sink, but. Yeah, but I really enjoyed it because,

Speaker A: I mean, I think it's great when enablement people come from field or line sales where they had a quota. They know the reality.

Speaker C: Yes. Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: Not just the academics, but the reality of what it's like. And not the bunker view of it, but the field.

Speaker C: Yeah, I've been there. This car. This car, you know, all that. I agree.

Speaker A: And having done that, as opposed to the marketing side can be good at the high level. Right. And if. If they're the type of person that's willing to dig in.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker A: But the challenge with the salespeople is a good salesperson sometimes doesn't know why they're good.

Speaker C: True. And also sometimes you don't know how to teach other people what is good. So one thing that I have found being on this side is that when you want that top performer, you want to replicate that person. A. Exactly what you said. I don't know. I'm just doing my job. It's what they tell you. And then you are in that beautiful position of analyzing what is that this person is doing. Right. But then it's like, how do we get you to even help me mentor other people or coach other people? That is the difficult part. And it happens even more difficult when the companies make the mistake of promoting a top performer into a management role, which not everybody has the wood or the, you know, that foundation of being a manager. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I have this discussion with, you know, what, are they doing it for the right reasons?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Are they motivated by the right things that sales leaders are motivated by?

Speaker C: Yeah. To be honest, I tell. I tell a lot of top performers. If you don't want to be there and your motivation is get people better, just don't do it. Keep on selling. You're better off being an individual contributor. Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: It's going to be a nightmare. Yeah. And I did it because, you know, the bat. The wrong reason is because you think it's the next progression in your career.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: But if you don't love helping people, nurturing people, and seeing other people win at the expense sometimes of yourself, you're not going to be happy or successful at it.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, totally. And I. That's one thing that sometimes, you know, as an Ableman m. You're not part of that decision of who gets to be.

Speaker A: You have to live with it.

Speaker C: Exactly. So, you know, that is the challenge sometimes is I was such a good sales rep, why isn't my team doing what I do well?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I want 10 people like me.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker A: But I don't know how to describe how I'm different.

Speaker C: And it's funny because I've, you know, I've listened to so many calls and read so much people and read, uh, many emails and seen them in action on the floor or not. And you see a little bit of everything. And as I tell people, you have your style, and your style is one thing. You have your salesmanship, that's another thing. And then you have any other stuff that you're learning your skills and anything else. But I tell people, if you have the will to be a better salesperson, that is like 90% of the battle is won because I cannot help you with will. And it's like everything you do a diet, you're going to start an exercise program, you're going to start saving, it's exactly the same thing. So it's really interesting. And what I have, you know, my approach to how do I duplicate a top Performer is what type of process do I have to put in place that will spit out top performers? Right.

Speaker A: And how did you go about that?

Speaker C: So interesting, because it really depends on the type of sales leadership that you have. Um, a. If the sales leadership believes in enablement and they bring them to the table. Right. That's like the first step. Uh, second, if the sales leadership believes in a process as well and a structure and you can work together with that person. I had the wonderful benefit to working with an amazing sales leader who was very process driven. For him, this is a science, and it's a process. And you went to the T. And I was able to learn how to not only work with his process, how to. We know together we made it better and how we saw how that machine could spit out good salespeople. Right. And now I say, okay, now I just have to bring that process perspective wherever I go. And as much as people resist the change and resist the process and resist the structure, make them go into it as much as you can. And the most important thing, never let loose. It's like being on a diet and saying, it's just a chocolate, it's just an ice cream. You know, it's just a glass of wine. Like, do you really want to get to the goal or not? So that. That consistency of following, uh, the process is super important.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I've always tried to use, like, a game analogy because, you know, when you see kids try to play a game for the first time. Right. They don't follow the rules.

Speaker C: They just want to figure it out. Like, how is it that I do?

Speaker A: They want to kick the ball, hit someone and run.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or run.

Speaker C: Or learn how to play an instrument. I'm like, how do I do that song? Like, there's a process for that, honey. Right.

Speaker A: And a lot of it's counterintuitive and it doesn't make sense until you play the whole game.

Speaker C: Yes, totally.

Speaker A: A lot of great salespeople don't. They intuitively understand the game. And when they try and teach someone else, they say, oh, it's about relationships. It's about business acumen. It's about getting to Mr. Power, whoever, all of that stuff.

Speaker C: Yeah. But, you know, but they don't. They cannot pinpoint what part of the process is that you are doing better. And, you know, I. Right now I'm working with, you know, the group that I'm working very closely is with BDRs, who have the toughest job of the floor. Um, and the most important job of the floor because they're the ones getting the pipeline built. And one of the things that I tell them is don't focus. If you get the meeting, you know that that's going to be your measure of success right now. Focus in going back to your call just like a sports person and saying, am I doing the right things and am I conveying value? What was the reaction of the person? Um, did I manage the objection? How did I push? How little did I push? Should I push more next time? And thanks to today that we have all these amazing revenue intelligence tools. Because back in my day, we didn't have those. Um.

Speaker A: Yeah, the old carrot in the stick.

Speaker C: Oh, my God. I tell the BDRs, like, look, had this very old thing called a phone that was physical on my desk, and I had spent the day like this, typing, and I had a beautiful Excel sheet where I kept all my pipelines. That was it. You know, that was it. When Salesforce came in, it was like, wow, look at this. I can actually do. I can buy. I can manage my pipeline here. So, you know, I tell people, just focus on what you're doing and focus on what you're not doing. And where is it that you need to get better and the process will eventually catch up to the results. Right. So that is one of the things that's super important is to pinpoint and if you have the structure and a playbook and, you know, some people hate to do it, but for a bdr, if you have a script, you can actually see, am I doing the parts of the script that I have to do? Because if not, how do you know if the way you said hi to this person actually opened them up? Or was it the way you said hi to this person who made them shut down? Right.

Speaker A: Yeah. And how long or what's the scope of enablement at your company? Because it's all over the map at companies.

Speaker C: Oh, it is. So I have. I'm very lucky because I work at a company that sells an enablement solution.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: So my. It's funny because I am the Persona my bdrs and my account executives need to sell to. Right. So I am telling them every day what the battles I have with you guys internally are, what the enablers on the other side of the phone are having with their team. So why don't you use our examples when you're on the phone? Right. So my scope is I'm in charge of working with product marketing on the messaging. I structure what it is like the playbooks for the role, and the playbooks of how to deliver the value proposition for each one of the Personas. I am in charge both of the BDRs and the account executive, uh, enablement. I'm in charge of onboarding, of course, and anything that has to do with helping other, you know, my, both, uh, my, um, both managers on both sides really improve the metrics that they want to hit. So on one side it's about close rates, on the other side it's about the amount of meetings. So everything that I do are tied to those outcomes to actually see if I'm doing something that's making them get better.

Speaker A: And what's the hardest part?

Speaker C: Getting people to be flexible about change human behavior. Right. Um, getting people to adapt to a new framework. Getting people to adapt to a new, you know, a new type of. Let's listen to your calls and score them and tell me what you need to do better. Um, follow this program, say these things, like everything that's getting them into a structure. Right now, that's my biggest struggle.

Speaker A: And what works, if anything, um, depends. We'll let you know.

Speaker C: It depends because you have to go through the personality of each one of these people. The one thing that works for me, and this is something that I have discussed with, uh, with a few of my sale leaders, is getting champions inside of the group and getting those champions to prove results very fast. And when you have those champions actually go and use your process and say, look what I did, look how I'm improving. And they start doing the things that you tell them to do, and they continue to get better, then the other people are like, oh, I want to do what this person is doing. So, you know, it's tough because I have people who've been there not too long, it's been six months. I have people who've been there three months. I have people that I'm, um, onboarding. So I have three sets of challenges within that group. But it's like, how do I get them all in one straight line and how do I get them to want to be better? Right? So there's always going to be the person who doesn't want to do it. There's always going to be the person who says I'm above the process, and that's fine. And I think, you know, one thing that I tell everybody who's starting an enablement is it's okay. You cannot get everybody to do all the things that you want them to do, and it's fine. And you need to learn that fast because you need to develop what I call the thick skin and enablement. Because if not, you're going to feel like I'm failing and you can't, you know.

Speaker A: Uh, right. Because, you know, unless if you have, like, a product where the formula is already fined, you've got it all worked out. Yeah, maybe you have that. I don't know. But usually it's kind of an exploratory. And let's face it, we're all selling to people. Not every one of them is identical.

Speaker C: Exactly, exactly. And it's like, you can never sometimes pinpoint why this person opening the call, that person. Like this person more than the other person.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Like, uh, yeah, you can't. There's some things you can't really kind of mesh. But, yeah, you try.

Speaker A: And have you found certain things that you now look for in the hiring process, like a, uh, growth, mindset, open to coaching? Some example of being able to take feedback in the past.

Speaker C: So it's interesting for me, in the interview process, it's about even how different this person has and how well they have overcome challenges in their lives. Uh, one of the things that I have noticed is if the person has gone through things like a change in their career, like, I was kicked out of school and had to find a way to get back in, or I'm an immigrant and I need to figure it out, or, um, I don't know, I had a personal challenge that I need to overcome. I find those people have resilience that will allow them to move forward and will have that mindset of, I will take anything and I will just do it. Um, you know, those are the things. And it's funny because it's sometimes it's difficult to pinpoint, like, this is a person. And sometimes I tell people I think this person is good. Why? Well, these are things that I see from this person. But most of everything, I see their potential. People say, yeah, but they don't have five years of experience in sales. I'm like, no. But when I give you a funny story this February, before the world, you know, shut us down, we were in an event when we can go in person and have some drinks and do the fun stuff. And I met the gentleman who was the bartender, and he was very good in two things. Remembering everybody's drink and having this very personable style. At the end of the. Of the night, I was, you know, final drink, final rounds. I told him, have you ever thought about going into sales? And he said, not really. And I'm like, this is my LinkedIn. I didn't even Give him a business card. We don't use that anymore. Find me on LinkedIn and if you want to be in sales, you let me know. He got hired for the next cohort. Um, and the guy had no experience in sales and he's performing. He went through a process of being a bdr. He moved into a closing role, and there he is doing that right. And if you ask me, how did I know the bartender who was just there and I met in certain interactions, I'm like, there was something about his way of interacting with people and wanting and the fact that he went out and looked for me on LinkedIn and sent me a note. I said, this is a person who wants something better. Right.

Speaker A: It's crazy. Last week alone, I interviewed three great reps who came out of hospitality.

Speaker C: Yeah, my God, they're so good. There's so many good people in hospitality. I'm like, people, uh, undermine the value of the people that come from that industry. I'm like, the amount of stuff, stuff they have to come up with and do. Right.

Speaker A: Especially bartending, where it's like, it's money motivated. They have to memorize a lot of things. They have to interact with people. And people are pretty particular about their drink.

Speaker C: Yes. And you have to be. Especially. I see people, for example, in hotels, when you have a complaint, you're very passionate. My room was bad, my food was horrible. You're just the messenger, right? You're not the person who could. No, but I tell people, look, if that person was able to be the messenger and translate it and not get personal about it, okay. You have the potential to. For so many things.

Speaker A: And, uh, that's it. Because when you get people, like, right out of school and they haven't had that experience, they're going to have it with you. You want them to already have it.

Speaker C: Exactly. You want something. And I tell people, look, I did a great hire at enablement, and she had, um, event planning experience, and there was some sales experience. There was no enablement experience. But I, uh, remember looking at her and saying, if you can organize events, I can just imagine how you can help me plan an enablement structure and keep me honest and keep the floor honest. And I was not wrong. Um, um, I don't know if, as my grandma said, you know more, knows the devil because he's old, not because he's the devil. In Spanish, it makes more sense, but.

Speaker A: No, but it does make sense. And you know, because I've interviewed a lot of people with athletic backgrounds, but that showed teamwork. It Showed coaching and feedback. It shows resilience, but it doesn't have as much interpersonal stuff as hospitality does.

Speaker C: Yes, I agree. Especially in hospitality, you're dealing in, you know, in an athletic environment, you're dealing with your same team.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: You guys have, uh, a joint purpose. Yes.

Speaker A: An enemy. A common enemy.

Speaker C: Exactly. This is like we're all striving together to win over this enemy. In hospitality, you never know what you're going to get.

Speaker A: You don't. And you're between a rock and a hard place. You're between the kitchen, the manager and the client. All have different needs.

Speaker C: All might be correct or not, you know.

Speaker A: And who gets blamed?

Speaker C: Exactly, I think. And it's so funny because last night I was having a chat. We have a vacation that was planned for this year. I moved for next, and I was chatting with one customer support rep who was horrible. Then, you know, that chat, by grace of God, got shut down. And I had another chat and I had got somebody else who answered my question in less than four lines. Like, uh, the first time I said, I'm like, this is what I'm looking for. Somebody who can solve a problem, somebody who can listen to me, somebody who can relate, somebody who's willing to do what I need to do. I think that's super important. And in sales, that's very, very true, right?

Speaker A: It is. It's absolutely true. And, uh, you know, unlike sports, you don't have that team because the other servers, they want to cooperate and everything, but they got their own job.

Speaker C: Oh, totally, totally. Yeah.

Speaker A: Which is very much like sales.

Speaker C: I do have to say I have found very good managers, Sales managers who were sports coaches.

Speaker A: Yes. Yes. That's a high correlation.

Speaker C: Very, very good. I had, um, a couple of managers in my old job that used to be, um, sports coaches. And even though there were some things they were lacking, their ability to rally the team and to teach them and to coach them good things and to want to help them was undeniably one of the best traits that they had.

Speaker A: And how do you, uh, walk that balance, being between the manager telling the rep and the rep either asking for you or needing you?

Speaker C: Yeah. So it's very much about the relationship me as an enabler builds with the manager. Um, and that's something that I'm very focused and passionate about, is I tell the manager, you and I have to be in agreement of what is the messaging that we're telling the team. And at the end of the day, if you tell me this is the way you want to do it. As much as I advise you, I will follow your trend because you're the leader of that team. So I am not going to interrupt that, but I will try to tell you what I believe. And uh, in my last work I had nine managers that I had to deal with. Right again. Different personalities, all the same. All the same. Different tenures, different experience, different maturity levels. And I, you know, you have to have sometimes tough conversations like, dude, we're in this together. I'm not here to go against you. So you know, like, how are we going to measure people when they onboard sometimes, uh, those conversations like they didn't believe. I believe. Let me show you the data. This is what we should do. Let's come to a consensus. And sometimes you just have to have that back and forth. But I think as an enabler, always understand that the manager is the one who leads the team and you're that, how do I call it? That extra external face or the external, you know, brain that just says, this is what I see from your team. This is what I'm listening for a team. This is what I think is best for your team. But at the end of the day, it's your call.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that exists in sports. You have the pitching coach, you have uh, in the nutrition coach, you have all these other elements that play in the team. Um, and how do you get measured? How do you measure yourself on success or when do you know you're having success?

Speaker C: So for me it's about how, you know, we're very, not only the tool. I'm very big believer. Outcome based enablement. Right. It's like, how much are we selling today? And thanks to all the things I did, where are we right now? And it's not only like the ramp perspective from a newly hired rep. It's about ongoing programs. Like how are we. Objection. Handling. How did this program build the confidence that they are better when they have somebody on the phone? How did getting them to listen to their calls really help them understand how to get better and not talk for 15 minutes but actually make a cold call in seven? Um, so it's about what is it that we want to, to impact? And enablement has to have skin in that game. So if you are trying to arm your current executives to have shorter sales cycles or improve the win rate, it's like, okay, I'm going to do something to help you and I'm going to say that this is going to help you guys achieve X. And you know, just like any betting and anything put Your money down, put your skin in the game and make sure that you're tied to those measurements. Right.

Speaker A: And who do you view as your customer?

Speaker C: My customer is the entire sales floor, from the managers to the reps. Um, everybody in there is my customer. And I think that, you know, you said enablement is very different in different companies. There's, like partnership enablement. There's enablement when it's under marketing. I have been very lucky to always have been underneath sales, except when I was in the bigger corporation, it was always underneath sales. But for me, it's, you know, I'm kind of also that safety net between when product or marketing or somebody wants to come in and say, we need the sales force to have all this and know all this right now. Hold on, let me digest it. Let me see how they learn. And then we're going to give it to them if they need it. Because that's another thing people don't understand. The sales force doesn't always need all the bells and whistles of the product and the ins and outs. Right. It's what do they need to sell? What do they need to understand the solution? Because if you have a group of solution consultants, they will do the technical part. If you have somebody, you have to bring somebody else to explain the financial part. You will bring that person. You know, so that's another thing that for me, enablement does is kind of guard the sales team of all that explosion of information that will just overwhelm them, you know? Well, marketing has a newsletter and product has all these other things. They're not going to read it.

Speaker A: Well, that's the number one complaint to reps is not enough selling time.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Because you got to understand this time is a zero sum game.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And the client's time has a small window. So. And if you take the reps out for a week, okay, that's 1 52nd of the year.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: That's a major impact.

Speaker C: Um, it is a major impact. Especially if that was the week where they were going to have. I know the prospects and have the board meeting and that was the moment or anything.

Speaker A: And it's always sandwiched with craziness. They have to get ready, they have to follow up, they have to rest and recover.

Speaker C: And it's like, it's intense. And I think that sometimes people say, oh, you know, salespeople, they're so coddled and they're so spoiled and they're so everything. I've heard it all. And so people, hey, if you spend a week on the Phones and you cold call and close a deal and do everything in the middle. I will allow you permission to give me all that criticism about the salespeople.

Speaker A: It's the only department in the whole company that doesn't have an out.

Speaker C: Yes. Yes.

Speaker A: No one cares why you didn't make your number.

Speaker C: Exactly. And it's like. And all eyes are on them. Like, why didn't sales deliver this quarter? Right. Or why isn't the salespeople taking Christmas vacations? Well, because they're closing a year or a month or a quarter, and you don't get it. And they are. They've been working so hard and they would love a vacation. But this is first, right? So, yeah.

Speaker A: And, um, how about as far as, you know, standing up and getting attention with the people that you need to get attention with because, you know, sales leadership is pretty much laser focused, right?

Speaker C: It's, uh, it's interesting. I've been through the two motions where the sales leadership cannot care less about what enablement is doing. And it's very frustrating. And sometimes as much as you want to win more people, and I tell enablers, like, if you demonstrate your results and you look for your champions and you look for your groups and you get some managers, but still the sales leadership is not doing it. You need to stop and ask yourself, is this the company? Right. Because if they cannot value what you're also doing, uh, every day, uh, in and out, and you have measurements. Because that's also what I tell people. You cannot be the person running like a chicken without your head all over the company where you're spending 80% of your time doing. And this is a friend of mine said a random acts of enablement here and there.

Speaker A: Well, it is. Because otherwise, if sales leadership just gives you what they don't want to do.

Speaker C: Exactly. And you cannot. And you cannot be the secretary of the sales either. Right.

Speaker A: You're not sales admin and you're not sales ops.

Speaker C: Oh, no. You are sales enablement. You have such an important function to do, and people don't get it. I was actually, I made the analogy last week. We were doing a webinar and I was watching this, uh, I was watching a program about the vice presidents and what the vice presidency means. You know, being Canadian, we don't have a vice president. So I'm like, this is interesting. You know, what is. What is really a vice president? You know, And I like it because I saw how historically the importance of the vice president has evolved and how they become a trusted advisor and the person who's there and who's lobbying. And you know, I said this is enablement. Enablement is the vice president of the sales leader. You know, maybe you're not waiting to be the sales leader because you're not right. You're not in competition, you're not in competition. You don't. You're not expecting this guy to go. But you are embedded and you're very invested in the success of this person and this team. And I think it's super important that when you have a sales leader that's sitting down and you're having good heart to heart conversations and they can listen to you and they learn from you, or you learn from them, or you bring things in their open. It's like any relationship. It's so good. It's really, really good. It's difficult when the sales leadership does not believe in enablement or they think enablement belongs somewhere else, then you have a problem. But again, sometimes we have to make that hard decision. Is this the place where they're going to respect me and what I'm bringing? And I think that goes to personal relationships and jobs and anything else. Right.

Speaker A: So, yeah, hey, it's been a great conversation. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Speaker C: Yeah. So, you know, they can follow me on LinkedIn. Uh, Adriana Romero is there also. If you want to learn more about what I do, if you want to follow LevelJump IO, you can also find me there. We do a lot of webinars and a lot of cool stuff. So super excited. If you want to connect with me, super happy to do so.

Speaker A: And are you looking for anybody right now? You can plug that?

Speaker C: No, I'm not. But I do know a lot of enablement roles. Um, I'm invested in a lot of the enablement community. So if somebody's looking for a new role, connect with me. I'm always happy to connect people. If I know about jobs and I'm a maven, I love to connect people. That's my thing. So please, let's connect and let's see how I can help you.

Speaker A: Hey, what a great guest.

Speaker B: I really enjoy talking with other sales leaders, understanding their motives, their differentiators. And I think you get a lot out of here hearing how other people are solving these particular problems. Uh, if you or your team is looking to up your game, check out our training courses over@b2b revenue.com. the letter B, the numeral 2, the letter B, and then the word revenue.com. isn't that a beautiful word? Revenue Also, if you'd like to support the show, please put a rating, a review, or even better, tell another sales leader or even your team, uh, to check us out. Either this podcast or we got several others. We got the Brutal Truth About Sales and Selling, uh, which is interview, uh, based about the very best reps in the world and what is working today. Sales, uh, questions, brutally honest answers, a daily Q and A, uh, type show talking about, uh, the questions that people are asking today and the answers that I have for them. Also, uh, the B2B Revenue Leadership show where I talk to CEOs, CROs and CMOs about what is working today, look at all that content and if you happen to see my videos, pass you by on LinkedIn. Uh, Brian G. Burns, give uh, it a little thumbs up. Uh, whether it's comedy or content, I try and break up the day with a little sales comedy as well as some content about what is working today. Uh, little tips, tactics, techniques that have been working for me, different ways of looking at the sales world and how to get people's attention, uh, get conversations started and keep those deals moving. Appreciate you listening and we'll see you next time.