Ep 348 From Immigrant to CMO Interview With Andrew Bolis Fractional CMO

Speaker A: Hey everyone, this is Roman Prokopchuk and this is the Digital Savage Experience podcast. Today I have with me Andrew Bolas. He's a fractional CMO and business growth consultant. Thank you for joining me today.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me on the show, Roman.

Speaker A: Um, my pleasure. So tell me a little bit about your journey. How did you get to where you are today?

Speaker B: Uh, sure. So it's a bit of a long journey with lots, uh, of ups and downs. So, uh, I was actually born in Egypt, so I immigrated to the U.S. uh, when I was 12. And I think that experience shaped a lot of, uh, my career, uh, because in a lot of ways it was a bit of a culture shock, sort of big transition. And, uh, I immigrated into a small town where, uh, the school didn't even have ESL classes or anything. So everybody looked at me as an alien when I was walking around the school.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm a first generation immigrant. I came over when I was five. Uh, I went to esl. So I know that kind of, uh, dynamic. What was it, I guess, uh, that interests you in, in marketing. And how was that kind of journey from when you were in school? Obviously learning English, kind of things you may have, uh, run into culturally, because I think I was assimilated pretty easily. But there are obviously challenges. Like you have American friends, regardless of what culture, if you're coming m outside, like, they'll look at you, certain traditions, stuff like that. What were your kind of experiences with that?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think having been exposed to two different cultures and, and seeing that a lot of behavior is just based on norms, based on assumptions, to be honest, based on a lot of things that don't really make sense until you question them and start looking into them. Um, that got me really interested in marketing, uh, because I realized, hey, you know, human behavior, you can influence it both in positive and negative ways. And that's something that was appealing to me is like, how do people make choices, uh, and how can you influence, uh, those choices?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's. Well, I had a career pivot. I was initially supposed to be in, uh, federal law enforcement, ended up in marketing as well. But, uh, it's one of those things also that I think about, um, like the immigrant journey, you think, like being an immigrant and obviously coming from a situation. I came from Ukraine. It was still under the Soviet Union, so it was like, you know, a gritty upbringing. I was born in 84. Obviously as a kid it wasn't as, I guess, severe as an adult, but coming from a tough Potentially tough environment. You think it made you and kind of drove you and helped you through some of the obstacles that you've uh, I guess overcome and got to where you are now.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it helped me build a lot of resilience. So I remember when I first immigrated, I got into a lot of fights at school and a lot of it is because I just didn't know English that well. There was a language barrier and um, I was one of the only non white kids at the school. So I was just like, strange. Um, and this was before there was Internet. Before Internet was a popular thing. So now you have social media so you can just pull up photos from anywhere in the world. So, uh, a lot of that, yeah, helped me build resilience. You know, I, I eventually made some friends. That helped me a lot and, and in some ways too. It taught me like how to create relationships and, and kind of how to be smart and maneuvering difficult, ah, circumstances.

Speaker A: Now, have you always also wanted to, I guess, do marketing or did you have something else in mind kind of growing up as well?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I, uh, in school I did great in math. I was very logical. So initially, uh, I went into tech. So I studied computer science. Graduated, uh, worked in tech for a couple of years. And I like tech. It was very easy for me, but I realized after a while that tech is communicating to machines. Like your programming, your coding. It's great, but like, it felt limited after a while. And then as I was developing my social skills, I realized, hey, like, I like actually communicating with people more. Uh, and that was how I ended up transitioning into like, back then it was online marketing because you can only really do it on the web.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I got into digital marketing, uh, when it was kind of still like the wild West. So like 2008, 2009, where there was a lot of more sketchy things that were, um, I guess, uh, passable. But um, I think even starting out I try to be like, do the best for the client and the, the brand, be an extension of the brand and be kind of a good brand steward. So kind of your journey to a fractional cmo. Uh, you know, you said you transitioned from tech to marketing. What was that like? Kind of like the building blocks, the pillars you overcome. Did you have people that, you know, believed in you, helped you along the way? What was kind of that journey like?

Speaker B: Sure. So this was in the early 2000s. Um, I started coming across like other online marketing gurus who, you know, were talking about marketing, specifically copywriting. And I thought it was pretty cool. And. But to make the transition, I, like, I, I couldn't really get a job in marketing, so I had to kind of do it on my own. So I started doing, uh, SEO to build traffic, built an email list, started selling products to them, and eventually got into, like, a lot of affiliate market marketing. And I think in the early 2000s, it was actually pretty easy. It wasn't as competitive. You can do it where it's ROI positive. Um, so did that for a few years, and it was a lot of fun because I, you know, got to travel while doing it. I got to, you know, kind of party, go out as much as I wanted to. It was my early 20s, so in a lot of ways it was, it was a lot of fun.

Speaker A: And then how did you kind of make the, uh, transition from that to, uh, you know, a fractional cmo? Sure.

Speaker B: So right around the time when I was turning 30 years old, I realized, hey, like, I'm doing marketing on my own. I bring in enough income, you know, to support my lifestyle, but it's not really turning into an actual career. I wasn't that interested into building a big business where I had employees and all that stuff. It just wasn't my thing back then. Uh, and I would talk to people who worked in marketing, and I would realize, um, some of them are, were very senior. I realized, like, I knew a lot more than them because I had to do it on my own. So I knew kind of the latest stuff, and I was a lot more creative and resourceful about it. So I started interviewing for jobs and ended up getting a job at a marketing agency here in Chicago. It was very small, about five, six people when I started. Um, so almost had to start kind of from the bottom because I was like, I don't know, like a marketing manager. But it's really like a job someone with two, three years of experience would get.

Speaker A: And then did you stay with that, uh, agency or did you move on somewhere? Because usually, I mean, coming from a marketing background, the, the faster kind of you get promoted. Usually you jump around from agency to agency, or you go in house and to agency, which is unfortunate because if you're, you know, you like a company and you're vested into it, um, you know, you want to do good and do well for that company and obviously be recognized for it. But ultimately, like myself, um, from a role that I was in, it was like a SEO, social media specialist, strategist, like, like a senior strategist. Um, I, for the next three or four years. I had a role every like year at a different agency or company. And it was like, you know, skipping to director and then there was all director level. And unfortunately, like, it maximized like the increase in salary, but it was also like unstable because it's, it's a weird dynamic, I'm sure, you know, because it's like you're like walking on eggshells. And the agency knowing, like the life cycle of a potential person staying at that agency is like, you know, six months to maybe 18 months. So it's like this weird dynamic I don't know if you've seen in your career also.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I had a lot of transitions. And even when I joined the agency, I remember my first week I found out that I'm replacing someone who already left. This person was responsible for all the monthly client reports. And I had like reports for five clients to complete in a week. And I had no idea even what type of work was done for those clients, their industries. Um, so I was going through like the old slide decks that this person left behind, just logging into everything and trying to figure it out. So, yeah, it was a lot of sort of learning on the spot, just quickly figuring things out. But I think doing that too, um, you know, just taught me a lot of things pretty quickly. I think what I learned at the agency too was how to communicate with clients. Because you'll get a lot of requests that don't make sense. Sometimes you have to push back, sometimes you have to compromise. And I think that balance, uh, of it too, like, I learned a lot there. But eventually I, uh, burned out at the agency because I was doing, you know, the eight hour workday, two, three hours at night. Half of my workday was client calls, the other half was actually getting the work done for the clients. Um, so eventually I started looking for another job and I found one at a, at a B2B, ah, SaaS company. Uh, and, and that was kind of my first introduction into B2B marketing.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of the, I guess the unfortunate reality of, uh, you know, being at an agency. It's funny because I've spoken at, um, university to outgoing seniors that are digital marketing, specifically kind of majors. And they're kind of like deer in headlights thinking they're gonna like, work on Madison Avenue. Like be like, you know, Mad Men or, you know, that show. And it's like completely different. Like you said, the burnout rates also like the attrition rate. Then like, there's also a lot of instability because I've been at agencies where like 40% of their uh, incoming revenue is dependent on like two clients. So, so if you lose those two clients, you can have like the best employees ever. Like at the end of the day, you know, they're going to cut you because they have to kind of make the bottom line. I hate the saying where like companies say, you know, we're a big family, but, you know, we're a family until we lose a client, then it's time to leave. So it's one of those things. And even remembering um, you know, having meetings. So some agencies, like Mondays were all meetings, like internal meetings. So if I'm running a team and also responsible for strategies, but six hours out of the eight hour day I'm um, in meeting meetings, how am I ever going to do productive work? So it's just like balancing, figuring out, streamlining processes and at times like developing systems. And oftentimes, you know, the agency owners didn't want it or wanted things done their way. So there's like a lot of dynamics. I mean I've been in house as well, so that, that has its own set of challenges. But I think it's like, definitely a uh, learning experience. And there's you know, I think severe burnout in the marketing, uh, agency. I know a lot of people talk, uh, talk about kind of like mental health in the tech space and tech founders and the higher rate of suicide. I don't think a lot of people consider talk about kind of like the, the mental drain of, you know, being any, uh, employee on any level at a digital marketing agency.

Speaker B: Yeah, I, I relate to that a lot. Um, and the agency I was at too, which like most agencies was bootstrapped. So when they had a, you know, like we're working to get a new client, not only was there work on the proposal, but you know, once the client was signed there was a lot of excitement. But you know, now the agency could start looking for, you know, one more person to hire maybe. But until that person was hired up to speed, everybody else at the agency had to just do more work, uh, pretty much. And then as you probably know, these two agencies have smaller margins. So just the way you kind of the model works is they just can't pay you that much. So I think a lot of the advantages is that you get experience and it's a very rapid experience. And I think in a lot of ways that experience kind of set me up so I can get my next job.

Speaker A: No, I agree. And I think oftentimes also like throughout your career you have like good, good periods and then like, you know, you plateau and sometimes everything that goes up must go down kind of. So a lot of the time when you have everything aligned, your personal, your professional life, everything else is going well, it's kind of you have to prepare your mindset and yourself to potentially have something implode. Uh, I had stuff in my career and you know, during that time, also in my personal life. Have you had anything like a, uh, you know, defining moment where like, it felt like everything around you collapsed that you had to pivot? Maybe it was, you know, your personal life affecting, you know, your professional or vice versa?

Speaker B: Yeah, I've had a lot of those and in some ways I've, I've almost had a moment like that at even like every job I've been at. So at the agency. And this is one of the reasons, like I ended up leaving at one point. And uh, I've, I've wrote about this on my, on my LinkedIn, so I don't mind at this point discussing it openly. The agency owner, who I think, you know, one of the smartest people I've worked with, was like standing in front of my desk and just banging her fist on my desk asking about something that like, didn't really matter. It was just a client thing. I could just tell she was having a really bad day. I think we lost a client, a big client around that time and she was just, you know, being super emotional and stuff. So I didn't, you know, react again. At that time I was already like 31, 32 years old, so, so I just knew, hey, like, this is just gonna be a bad day. I, whatever. I just let her, you know, say her piece. But I realized right then and there that hey, like, I just need to, like, this is a toxic environment. I've, uh, already been there for several months. I learned all I need. You know, I should just start, you know, like looking for other options. And that was basically the time that I decided, hey, like, I'm gonna put in my notice and I'll just find another job. Uh, and at that time when I talked to other marketers, they recommended like an in house job. They said, you know, it's, it's kind of more relaxed compared to agencies and you get to just focus on one industry, one company, you know, one set of campaigns.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And I mean, I guess I've experienced certain situations where like, you know, uh, I guess at times you also kind of question your integrity in certain places. Like you start a Role. It could be a big agency, a small agency, but things are kind of like, uh, nickel and dimed or like corners are cut, like in terms of clients, or clients are expecting work and think, you know, there's a hundred hours done, uh, for certain clients and there's only maybe, you know, a handful, five or six. I mean, I've been in situations where a, uh, client was spending, let's say like $40,000 a month. I was the only one responsible for it. And maybe I did a total of eight hours for those $40,000. So like, I also saw the disparity, like I'm getting a salary and you're literally getting like, uh, you know, exponentially higher, uh, value add, uh, and I'm adding my expertise that I've brought along the, the way. So there's like situations like that and like you mentioned how you handle, I guess, uh, that situation also in your early 30s would have probably been different in your early 20s. So I think like developing and handling kind of, and experiencing, really experiencing those kind of situations prepare you how to handle it in the future. Because if you're not accustomed to it, you may blow up, you may get into like a uh, shouting match. And I think that's all like, you know, emotional empathy and the emotional IQ and building that up, how to like interpersonal skills. Because even people within like, uh, their 40s, 50s, even 60s in the workplace, some, you know, CC suite executives don't necessarily know how to speak to their people or don't really know how to connect in that level or potentially like, all right, they're acting a certain way, is they're dealing with something. So I think that's, that's really important. And so I've been in situations like that, somebody coming into my office. But that actually led to unfortunate, ah, termination where it was that the, the boss was kind of like, um, you know, taking advantage of one of the employees that was reporting to me. And I kind of stood up for that employee. And then I got an email over the weekend saying your role's been eliminated. So there were situations like that. What do you do? Do you do the right thing and like, bite your tongue or do you, you know, stand up for employees? I think there's a lot of that around in the marketing industry as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I, I always try to think long term when I can. Obviously sometimes I get emotional too and react. But in that situation too, I knew I wanted to still leave on good terms because I knew it would be nice to have that manager provide a Positive reference for me and I. We've never had a problem as far as my work quality. Um, so that's kind of why too. Like, I, you know, I left on good terms. Uh, I believe, like, there were to like, a lot of stories that were told about me after I left, about how like, you know, it was like me being fired versus me leaving on my own and kind of, I mean, now I laugh about this stuff because kind of pity and I don't care. But back then, you know, like, you, uh, know again, I always kind of try to think long term and think of it as like a sequence of steps in my career. And I'm trying to kind of build upon, you know, each step.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's important regardless of kind of what industry, uh, you're in. Like you just mentioned kind of leaving on good terms regardless of kind of the situation. Because I've been in, in situations where it's like, you know, I left a role or, um, had a client or consulted for someone and you know, potentially in house or on the agency side and, uh, you know, the team was toxic, the dynamic was kind of weird. But I mean, I still deliver like you. My results spoke for themselves. So even though you may have not liked me for some trivial reason, may be something that's legitimate or not, like, you can't deny the results. So I've had people, because I left on good terms, reach out to me after the fact, like, hey, I'm working on this client on the side. Can you like, you know, do a proposal? Can you like, you know, help with the account or like, you know, I just started this agency or consulting group and basically can you, you know, do a proposal? And, you know, they would be paying me and I would be paying you. Situations like that. And that was just kind of like not burning those bridges. So like you said, leaving on good terms goes a long way. And I think it shows like your maturity or the person's leaving maturity also, like, you can't. You could be petty, but you took kind of the higher, uh, road as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think you're right. Like, what people remember the most about you is your work ethic and how much value and effort you contributed. So even if you don't get along, like, I've had that happen two at jobs where I didn't really get along that well with the person. There was always tension there. But after, like, I left or they left the company, we still maintained a very positive relationship because, you know, they respected my work and I respected their Work. So I think that's, you know, a big part of it.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. So what are you kind of currently working on? So we talked about kind of your journey. You, uh, going to a, uh, B2B SaaS company. What are you currently doing in terms of kind of the marketing space and consulting?

Speaker B: Uh, sure. So, so I, I mean, just to quickly wrap up the story. So I ended up, you know, working at a few different companies similar to you eventually. I worked at this company for about three and a half years, worked with this guy who was like a four time cmo, probably to this day, one of the smartest marketers I've actually worked with because he's just been doing it for decades. Learned a ton from him. That allowed me to then get a CMO job at a serious B tech company. And that was going great until the company didn't raise funding. They were expecting. They ended up laying off 15% of the employees. I got laid off. After I left, I heard that some other people were also laid off and stuff. Um, and that was December. And that's when I decided, hey, well, this is a great time for me to do my own thing. Um, because the job market is very tough and a lot of the jobs I was seeing were just not even the right type. Uh, so that's when I decided to do what I call fractional CMO or business growth consulting where, you know, I work with these companies. They typically have a small marketing team or at least like one marketing hire. And I'm just helping, you know, sort of optimize everything they're doing to, you know, generate pipeline sales and help them grow.

Speaker A: So a lot of people, you know, in the B2B space on platforms like LinkedIn, you know, mention fractional, uh, CMO, but most people don't necessarily know the definition or the ins and outs. So explain what a fractional kind of CMO is. I mean, obviously I know what it is, but kind of for the audience and how you actually help clients and what that role kind of entails.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, and I love that you asked that question because you're right, a lot of people too are just calling themselves a fractional cmo. And you look at like their job history and, and they were like a, uh, specialist or something or like maybe a director, which even those people I have more respect for. Um, so it's a part time marketing leader and it's someone that, you know, generally works one day, two days per week with your company as part of your team and they have very specific goals um, so, you know, generally the companies I work with there may be, you know, 5, 10, 20 million in revenue and they're just trying to get to that next stage in revenue. They have aggressive goals and they have a lot of the pieces in place. They're just need sort of more kind of holistic help either from a go to market strategy, either like how to better spend their budget or just how to make their marketing more effective. Uh, and a lot of my work too ends up being both on the marketing side and coordinating very closely with sales. Um, so while working full time too, I've managed BDRs and SDRs. So I'm pretty good at not just the marketing piece, but even getting them, um, like quality sales opportunities that at least you don't end up, um, being more likely to turn into deals and things like that. So that's a lot of my work. Obviously every company is different and it really depends on the company and what they need.

Speaker A: Yeah, now kind of like, you know, you, you working for yourself. Um, and you mentioned kind of building relationships along the way in your career. Obviously, you know, we know the hardest thing is to get a client first. Um, you know, get a business partner, a client, whatever you're doing. How are you currently kind of, um, you know, getting clients or business opportunities for yourself? Is it, you know, relationships you've built in the past? Is it another way? Are you generating kind of leads? How are you kind of doing that?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. And you're right, I think getting your first client is the hardest. Um, so after I got laid off in December and I started, I realized, hey, this is what I want to do. I started reconnecting. Um, like I pulled up my LinkedIn. Anybody who's like a VP C level or involved with like a VC firm or a private equity firm, I started just going through those people, sending them messages, saying, hey, I'd love to reconnect. Uh, and on the call too. I wasn't necessarily asking for a referral. It's more, hey, you know, finding out where they're at, what, what they're doing and just saying, hey, so you know, I lost my job. This is what I'm doing now. If you know of anybody who you know, I could help, just let me know. And I kind of kept it very casual. And from doing that I ended up connecting with someone who, he's a CEO now, um, and he sits on the board of a few companies here in Chicago. He connected me with, ah, the co founder and chief product officer, another company and he's like, they need a lot of marketing help. Uh, you know, even from the board, we've been advising them to get, you know, someone who's experienced uh, in marketing. Um, so he just did that introduction and I took it from there and ended up getting kind of a three month uh, gig, uh, from doing that. So that was, you know, I think that's like the fastest way at least you know, to get like your first clients.

Speaker A: Now you said you're in Chicago. Have you always worked out of Chicago or your other areas around kind um, of the US or anywhere else?

Speaker B: Uh, most of my career has been in Chicago, either in the city or in the suburbs. That's just because it's where my uh, like, like my parents and immediate family is based. Um, so I think that's also an advantage because like I have a lot of connections here and Chicago is a big enough city where there's a lot of opportunities. Um, so, so I think, you know, that helped too when I was uh, reconnecting with people.

Speaker A: Yeah. Because I just asked kind of like what the, I don't know, the. I've been, I've actually been flown out to Chicago, I think it was like 10 years ago for opportunity at ah, a startup. So like they paid for everything. So I'm like, why not? It's a free trip. Um, so I had an interview there. But just kind of thinking about like business climates, um, you know, and opportunities in different areas of the country. Obviously there's kind of tech booms. Some places are kind of like, I would say marketing centers or like agencies, uh, global agencies, want to put a, you know, flag in that city. So I was just wondering, kind of like the climate of Chicago currently within the, you know, startup space and marketing space.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a, it's pretty good. Like there, there was a, you know, like a, like a tech boom. There's a lot of also fintech here. Even though I haven't worked in fintech, like fintech is a pretty popular thing because finance too, like has a lot of roots in Chicago. Um, and then there are startups, uh, and so I know there's a lot of like, like ad tech startups. The company I worked at for a long time was supply chain, uh, tech, which, there's a lot of supply chain companies too that are based in Chicago because in the center of the U.S. um, so supply chain, logistics, ad tech, um, there is a lot of, you know, sort of those companies around and opportunities around.

Speaker A: That makes sense. So what's One piece of advice you could leave with the audience. Personal or professional? Sure.

Speaker B: So, and this is kind of crossing of both, but like, kind of the lesson I learned after getting laid off was, you know, if you're not building some kind of an online presence, you know, some people call it a personal brand, although that word starts to uh, you know, sound loaded. You're really missing out because you're commoditizing yourself. Like you're, you know, like even if you get a job or you get clients later on, the best you're going to do is get like the market rate for your services. Whereas if you're building an online presence, creating relationships, just trying to uh, get your voice out there and personality out there, you start building somewhat of a personal brand. And that's the key to being able to get higher quality clients, sort of charge more for your services. It's not different than a brand versus a commodity, even in business. Um, um, so, you know, that's what I'd encourage people to do. Like for me, I think LinkedIn makes that very easy where, uh, you start posting on there, connecting with people and engaging. Uh, but there's obviously a lot of other ways to build an online presence.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I think like your brand transcends where you're at. Like that's what's going to give you your value. And oftentimes you may be the best expert and whatever field, maybe you're the best developer. But if nobody knows that somebody that is maybe, you know, 10 years less experienced but has a solid personal brand online and demonstrating, putting out materials like, you know, how they achieve success, uh, you know, networking things, people within kind of who they're connected, things that they do in terms of conferences, maybe speaking engagements. Obviously I'm a proponent for um, audio content since we're on a podcast. You know, that's one reason I started a podcast. Having conversations with people and you know, connecting with people. If I can help them in any way, if obviously, you know, they can help me in some way or another along the way. So I think that's important and even kind of doubling down on really like putting myself out there, even though, you know, nobody likes to like be in front of the camera. One, two, like if you go a step further in, in a studio, because I've done studio interviews on other podcasts, like media publications and three, I've spoken at like different conferences about uh, podcasting and stuff like that. So being on stage but getting yourself out of, you know, your comfort zone. Not everybody is, wants to uh, you know, share their business online, which is fine because you theoretically disconnect your personal and professional brand if you want to do that, but really kind of like putting yourself out there and, and being seen because the Internet and technology is moving so rapidly that you know you're going to be left behind. And if you don't kind of like upskill yourself and show that, like, you're doing all these things, you're working with all these people, nobody are ever going to know that, you know, you're achieving these great things that they can possibly, that you can possibly help their company or brand with.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's really like the ultimate way to future proof your career, regardless of what you end up doing, whether you, you end up doing your own thing, you know, getting jobs. It just gives you a lot more exposure and more opportunities.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. So I really appreciate you stopping by today. Can you let the audience know how they could find you or anything else you have going on?

Speaker B: Uh, sure. So I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, so if you just look up my name on LinkedIn, that's the best way to connect with me. Uh, I share a lot of, uh, advice on there, on, you know, driving growth at different businesses and some of the marketing strategies I use. Um, so that, yes, I sort of do a lot on there and that's the best way to connect with me.

Speaker A: Awesome. Thanks again for stopping by.

Speaker B: Uh, thank you for having me on, Roman.