The Truth About AI Content, SEO, and What Actually Ranks in 2026 with Kyle Roof

Kyle Roof: Well, something that we found is that, um, AI is terrible at SEO, which is, which is great for all of us. And so if you're bad at SEO, it's going to help you do bad SEO faster.

John Wright: Okay.

Kyle Roof: It's not going to fix your SEO problems. I bet you can't. But it's not going to find a market fit for you. It's not going to do your marketing for you. It's not going to find an audience, and it's definitely not going to be able to tell you if the output is correct or not. You, you have to be mindful that you're not going to be right 100% of the time.

John Wright: Yeah, they're just not.

Kyle Roof: But you can be more right to your competitors.

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John Wright: All uh, right, let's start off with Page Optimizer Pro. I mean you've built that. We can't not talk about that tool. Um, I've used it before and it's really cool. I kind of want to know like where, where's the SEO tool space going and what are you working on right now in that tool?

Kyle Roof: Well, something that we've found is that um, AI is terrible at SEO, which is, which is great for all of us. Um, but the biggest thing we've actually been running a year long case study, um, we're a little bit over a year now and looking um, at kind of the base level of terms that we get out of the LLMs, like without prompting, what, what is the content that we're getting? You know, so we've been running this experiment with um, uh, give me a thousand words on what to see in Rumble. And then we get that article and then we run that through POP to evaluate how good is this for SEO purposes. And they're garbage. They're actually terrible. And so late in, uh, 2025 there were several, uh, Google updates. I think they were targeting AI content. But not targeting it to, to determine if it's AI or not. Because they don't have to do that. They just have to count the terms. And the AI content is so light in contextual terms, or lsi, if you will, that I think that's all they had to do. I think they turned up the dial a little bit on contextual terms and um, that allows them to spot AI content and knock it out, especially like the mass built content. So for us at pop, we're loving this because we do very well with contextual terms and um, we're very proud of what we've got. And so, um, what we see kind of with AI, people rely on AI more. You will need a tool that can count for you and can count the terms for you and give you the content that won't get you in trouble.

John Wright: Okay, so would you say then there's still a smart use case for using AI for content? Oh, for sure.

Kyle Roof: But you have to understand that AI is a tool that helps you do things faster.

John Wright: Yeah.

Kyle Roof: And so if you're bad at SEO, it's going to help you do bad SEO faster.

John Wright: Okay.

Kyle Roof: It's not going to fix your SEO problems.

John Wright: All right, what about Programmatic SEO, where you're targeting keywords that are kind of valuable, but they've been really difficult to rank for. I mean, I come in the igaming space and I just spun up a website recently where I aggregated so many casino clips my apr and I got a hundred thousand, but I'm not publishing all 100,000, I'm just publishing the summary of them. But all that data is going on each casino review, which is like, I mean it's just fully automated, but it's working. Like. Is this a good example?

Kyle Roof: Yeah, for sure. Um, Programmatic SEO, I think something that AI has done is it's allowed more people to get into the programmatic space. Before, I think there was a bar to entry in terms of being able to understand how to do it, how to set it up. And that's something that AI is helping, uh, programmatic SEO mass page build kind of stuff. Much larger projects that involve, uh, large, uh, amounts of data, um, can now be accessed by mere mortals. When before it was the super nerds, they could only. They could only do it.

John Wright: Okay, so whether we're a SaaS company or an affiliate company, it doesn't matter. What would you recommend for the content team? Because obviously you got the technical part nailed. But I think, I think content's the space that everyone's confused. They're like I don't know what to do. And when I talk about this to other affiliates, they're just kind of, they're like lost and they're kind of just copying the same playbook and looking at what other people do. Uh, what's your go to market here?

Kyle Roof: There are two things you want to think about. Um, one is the idea of supporting content on the site. So if you have a top level page, you know, this is the page that you want to rank. Um, you need content that will support it, you know, that's kind of around it and turns out that's really good for Google, but it's also really, really good for like AI search. And it gets into that query, uh, fan out concept where when AI does search it breaks it into smaller pieces and those are essentially people also ask type questions. That's what we're really talking about. So stuff that if it works on the page, it should be on the main page. But then there's stuff that's kind of adjacent. Um, that kind of content you should have a plan for and AI can really help you bang out that content. And in order to satisfy what Google wants, because it's always great for Google, but then satisfy what AI search warrants. But in addition, as I mentioned before, you do need to be very mindful of your accounts, I think even more so than before if you're not getting term rich content, you know, because AI content, it looks pretty, so it reads pretty well, but it's missing. It's, it's, it's, it's deficient in the, in the number of terms that it need to be on the page. And so you really need to be very, very careful with that. As long as you're careful with that, then you're good to go.

John Wright: Okay, so I mean it goes without saying, it's like while everyone's been screaming that SEO is dead, would you say it's gone the extreme opposite where it's

Kyle Roof: never, oh, we're making more money now than we were last year. This is, this is better than ever. Um, and what's great too is because now you can, it's, it's essentially the same thing now. We're calling it like an AI package and you can charge more. So but it's, it's essentially the same principles because it turns out computers all think the same way. You know, there's only they, and they're mimicking how humans think, you know, and obviously doing a little bit faster and a little bit better and a little more structured. But the way that we think is, well, how we program computers and then that's all just, you know, the same stuff from before. So that the. Just because it's now an AI type thing, it doesn't mean it's changed. Computing has changed.

John Wright: Yeah. What you just said in the last five minutes has made me write a bunch of notes where we're a SaaS company, we're building more SaaS tools and um, I think we actually need to go hardest on content, if I'm not mistaken.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, I mean we are, we're doing so well with, um, with content that is satisfying, uh, Google and at the same time satisfying AI search as well.

John Wright: Yeah.

Kyle Roof: And it's really, it's the, almost the same concept.

John Wright: Yeah. I mean, just to give you like a small story to kind of double down on that and this is why we should actually react even stronger. I had an affiliate that came to us and one thing we do, we actually tell people how affiliates can detect when shaving is happening on their account. And this guy was actually asking Claude, like, how, uh, how he can figure this out and it's like, go to Stats Drone. And he told me that and I was like, okay, you know what, um, we need to go even harder on the content. We need to be like all the stuff that we do. We need to be the thought leader in this space. And I actually felt like there's a major gap in like people not really fully understanding how to set up postbacks. What's a dynamic variable? How's it different than a postback? Sure, sure.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, no, um, I'm with you. I think, um, when people were really concerned that AI was going to kill SEO, especially remember when Jasper came out a few years ago and everyone's like, oh no, this is it. What died off was, um, the content farms. Those died, those died instantly. And I think we are losing some, uh, lower end providers, uh, and maybe some reduction in staff. But after that output has increased tremendously and the more there's output, then there's more money to be had.

John Wright: Yeah. All right, let's pretend that tomorrow we just raised half a million and we don't even have an SEO department. Like I'm literally that person right now and I spend minimal time on it, but I do geek out on building, uh, SEO tools, uh, in house. What, um, should we be hiring? Is this one person? Is this two people? I know content's probably going to be, I think, top of mind. I'm kind of wondering, I'm, um, like, do we need like separate people? For link building, what is your advice for.

Kyle Roof: You probably need somebody that can, that can do the prompts and can do the, um, do the agents, but you need the expert in order to be able to understand the output. You know, just getting output isn't good enough. So you will. I'm hiring two people. I'm hiring somebody that understands SEO very well and understand what the output should look like. And then I'm hiring somebody that can prompt and can build out your little clawbots and stuff like that. Because then once you've got the expert that can verify the output, then you can send that person out to them, create all the agents for you, and um, you'll be pretty productive and I think you'll be pretty successful.

John Wright: Okay. And I'm assuming that you're geeking out with like research, uh, agents. It's like, do we need to include these in the background? I mean, or is this like a must have at this point?

Kyle Roof: Um, so you're either going to be doing it yourself or you're gonna pay somebody else to do it. I mean, that's the bottom line. And so you either want to go and learn how to do it or you're gonna be. Just have to be comfortable paying somebody. But even if you're paying somebody to do that kind of work for you, you still wanna know what the limitations are, right? Like what it can and can't do. And then I think that can help you decide what direction you're gonna take, your agency, your tools, whatever you're doing. Um, but you. I've been having so much fun. I was kind of, um, I was kind of anti. I was like, you know, I don't really need to get into that. And that's fine. I've got people for it. And then in the last few months I play with it and the stuff that I built has been just a blast. And uh, like now I'm like now I'm much more, um, pro the stuff. I'm um, not a Luddite anymore. I'm agents.

John Wright: So from a business philosophy point of view, as a business owner, would you say that if you had a series of like five companies to invest in, are you only going to want to invest in the companies that are people like you, where you're actually, you know, the stuff, but you're building rather than being someone that's so busy that your job is just pure management?

Kyle Roof: Yeah, I mean, if your job is that busy, there's probably some repeatable tasks that you should be able to get rid of. And if you're not figuring out how to get rid of those repeatable tasks, then you're going to fall on. I mean, I think that's, that's where you'll fall behind. If you're doing something that is very repeatable or you're paying somebody to do something that's very repeatable, um, there's probably an efficiency issue. So I would be hesitant to,

John Wright: to

Kyle Roof: be involved in that type of company. If somebody is just completely resistant, they want to do the repeatable task, then that might not be where you want to be.

John Wright: Yeah, but I think there's a, uh, extreme value. I mean, like, yeah, it's better to at least pay someone rather than not doing anything.

Kyle Roof: Oh, for sure, for sure.

John Wright: At some point, I think you, you gotta get your hands dirty. I mean, this is like rebuilding a car, in my opinion.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, I mean, so I. My first car was a 1978 Datsun F10 and the hatchback version. And, um, you could open up and you could understand the engine. I could change the oil. Could I do that on a car today? No, I don't think I could. But I do understand, I do understand how it works. And so I think that's kind of where we're at right now with these kind of things. Like you can open up the hood and you can understand what it's doing, and you can, as you said, get your hands dirty. I think in a little bit you won't be able to. And so I think now would be the time to learn it so that at, uh, least when it gets a little more complex, you still know its limitations and, and where it can go and what it can't do and that kind of stuff.

John Wright: Yeah. All right. That, that, that kind of gives me a good roadmap. It's like I've, I've dabbled with agents. I'm actually building some, but I haven't rolled them out. And I'm spending time kind of going, what is my computer setup? Like, this is probably my biggest dilemma. It's like, I think I might want to get a powerful machine because I'm spending a lot of time on, um, like vectorizing content, like taking databases, putting them to postgres, and then going, okay, let's, let's make it. So we've actually got semantic search, and maybe that's actually a good pivot to asking you about that. Like, most of the Internet is WordPress, MySQL and I think if we actually change the databases, I mean, the way Google works, to my understanding, is they vectorize everything. And that's why they're super fast and they've got like a semantic search engine. Um, do you think that there's going to be a demand or an incentive for people to start changing their websites to say, okay, it's not MySQL anymore, it's going to be Postgres or something else and you're going to build like really smart searches inside.

Kyle Roof: I don't think the Internet will change en masse like that enough for it to be worthwhile to give you any kind of benefit. I don't think I, uh, see exactly what you're saying, but I just don't think the Internet's going to get on board with it. And as a result I don't think, and I always think Google does things as cheaply as possible. You know, like they have the ability to do certain things, but I don't think they really do because I think you can get the same result or very similar result by just using a bag of words model like uh, a BM25 and just bag of words plus, plus word count is probably pretty close to what they want anyway with obviously a little uh, variation off of that. But I think they'll do it as cheaply as possible. So I think they have the ability to do what you're talking about. I don't think they will do it because it's expensive. And then I think to your other point, I think it's a great idea. I just don't think the Internet will adopt it enough for Google to care enough really.

John Wright: Maybe it makes sense if you have, let's say, a shit ton of data with really cool insights and you're the first person to create it. And maybe that's the perfect example.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, I like that. You know, and then you're doing it for yourself essentially, not necessarily for um, an external validation through a search engine, but through making your data more accessible for your end users. For sure.

John Wright: Okay. Just kind of pivoting a little bit. I mean you're a SaaS company and the whole SaaS space, everyone's like, oh, this is like the space that's getting ripped to shreds. Where I'd say technically it is. But I think there's a pivot of how SaaS companies need to survive and be not just like surviving, but to get growth. And I think just from hearing what you're working on, I'm assuming that you're doing it for. Not just because of survival, like you're doing the right things, which uh, is basically Building unique data sets and creating data that no one else has, which makes your platform far more unique. Where I know there's other ones that are trying to kind of copy what you guys do, but I think when you have those data and you're geeky and building data sets, uh, that's I think your new moat.

Kyle Roof: Well, this is a point that I've had for a while in that, in my space, in the on page SEO space, for example, where POP lives, um, there are really five tools that have survived since, since we've been around five or six tools. And every year there are all these competitors that pop up and they go away because they're not creating anything new, they're just reskinning an API. Yeah. And now we're getting a lot of tools. They're popping up, they're just reskinning AI with again so they don't really have the knowledge of what the output should be. They're seeing it more as a marketing opportunity rather than um, their on page SEOs, you know, they understand the, the on page. And so even just outside of say the SaaS that I'm doing, I'm seeing a lot of their. All these people thought like, oh, I'm building this SaaS or building that SaaS. But you see very few of them come to market and the ones that come to market don't survive. And it's because, just because you can build something doesn't mean you found a market fit. And then also if you don't really understand what the output should be, uh, you're really putting yourself in a, in a bad spot because you don't know how to adapt or how to change even slightly. So I am not overly concerned about, you know, that somebody's like, I can build a SaaS tool in two minutes now with this in. I bet you can. Uh, uh, I bet you can. But it's not going to find a market fit for you, it's not going to do your marketing for you. It's not going to find an audience and it's definitely not going to be able to tell you if the output is correct or not. Not just in the SEO space, but in any space in SaaS. Because I mean where, where are all these SaaS tools. Yeah, that are, that are killing people? One way people are maybe, or SaaS tools are hurting is that some people are getting smart enough to kind of maybe build their own little internal tool. They don't necessarily have to pay for a third party process. But that is such a small group of People and ah, it's real nerds like you and me.

John Wright: Yeah.

Kyle Roof: Um, my dad's never gonna do that. He's not running out and creating any kind of AI agent to do anything. So.

John Wright: But what if someone creates uh, like the, the one click install for replacing Trello? Jira. Uh, Intercom. I think we're getting close to that.

Kyle Roof: Maybe. But then once you do that, like uh, so you do that, right. You create your own Trello. You have to get people into it and people are already comfortable with Trello.

John Wright: Yeah.

Kyle Roof: And they don't know John's, you know, moving board of wonder

John Wright: or Garbage.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, exactly. You know, it's like, you know, or you know, Kyle just invented, you know, this, this um, you know, Slack alternative. Who cares? Like we already use Slack. We already like Slack. We already. So there is kind of. You're going to have to do a lot to break into that space. So like you can do it. But getting into a space is going to be extremely difficult.

John Wright: I think it depends on where people are. Like Slack. It's like you don't. You're not pulling people off Slack. Um, you know, Jira, maybe it depends, but it's different. Um, so pivoting, it's. We've been building a database software which is ironically enough, we're actually using it to build and replace some of these tools and one of the, one of the database projects I'm geeking out on.

Kyle Roof: Did I just trash your idea?

John Wright: No, no, not at all. It's. You might have actually, you might have actually double validated anything that's good. But uh, yeah, so I'm. We. We first started building um, database for our stats drone customers, helping affiliates visualize their data. We were doing it with Tableau and then we're like, you know what? AI just kind of came along and well, it's been around for a while but the dataviz got really amazing. The things that I wanted to build two years ago, I'm like, I need four amazing people to build this and now it's like I just need Claude. Um, right. So I'm building a Google Search Console plugin. I've got. I think I put maybe like four hours into it. But do you think with Search Console, if you had to build like the perfect plugin that's like whatever you want. Would you say like this is a plugin that you'd probably want to spend like 20 hours on, like just grinding out and going everything you could imagine, like build the full suite. Like this is possible to build like

Kyle Roof: uh, a Clone of Search Console or

John Wright: to not a clone.

Kyle Roof: Can I analyze Search Console?

John Wright: Yeah, like to take the best value. Because every time I interview like people like you, it's like I get an idea for Search Console. I'm like that's great. And then I start going, wait a minute, let me take all the comments that everyone said about how you can use Search Console in the best way. And even AI does it for me. It's like, give me the best uses of Search Console that people don't understand. And it's like, and then build.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, no, I mean that, I mean that's, that's great stuff. Um, I think the best way to validate that kind of or in any tool is are you going to use it yourself? And if you're, if you're solving your own problem and you're using yourself for those types of insights or getting the type of data that you need in a certain way, then there's, there's likely somebody else has that same problem. And then, then I think about what's the least amount that somebody would spend to solve this problem so they don't have to do it themselves themselves. And if that, if that dollar amount justifies bringing it to market, then that's something that I would consider.

John Wright: Okay. Because I mean we've all seen like there's lots of friends we have on LinkedIn and X where they're building their own Looker Studio plugins or yeah, Looker Studio templates and I mean there's a massive market on that just for only Search Console. And that's not even including Google Analytics, uh, it's not even including a module for cloudflare if and when that matters.

Kyle Roof: And I guess what's nice too is you kind of have a built in audience with um, the affiliates that are already associated with you too. Right. So you can kind of bring stuff to kind of a beta, um, uh, and try it out with a uh, base that already likes you. You know, they already are nominally and um, and then you can give it a go. So you can kind of like solve your own problem. Then you can bring it to market with your group before trying to bring it to a much larger audience. So that's a nice way to launch I think.

John Wright: Yeah, I'm thinking about just basically launching two versions of the plugin. Uh, one is like a free version which is going to be fully open source and you can basically download it. All you need is your either API keys or like one of these emails that you just kind of put in Search Console and Connects to your cloud. Um, yeah. And then maybe the advanced one, which is like, okay, let's go all in and go super deep and if people care about it, then, yeah, maybe we'll turn it into something.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, Yeah, I like it. Let's do it. All right, I'm in.

John Wright: I'm in. Speaking about Search Console, like, you know, I hear over and over again, it's like, this is like the gold mine. What are you, what are you digging at a search Console today that everyone keeps overlooking? Because I've watched some of your, um, I've seen some of the videos on, um, you know, Internet, uh, marketing gold. It's like, to me, it's like that one I feel like is the most underrated one.

Kyle Roof: The, um, the thing that I really like to do in Search Console, especially when I'm looking for wins, is, um, doing a CTR by rank report. So you can sort and you can figure out everybody, you can figure out your own CTR for by rank position. So all the ones that are in the one position, what is your actual ctr? And then I go back through and I find underperforming keywords. So let's say, uh, if I'm sitting in the five spot, I should have a CTR of 8, you know, 8% or something like that. Um, and I'm only at 3%. That means I'm leaving 5% on the table. I've already got the ranking. Just there's something, there's a disconnect there and that's usually just tweaking, um, you know, meta descriptions and titles, uh, without. Ah, but so you can get some real wins quickly by taking advantage of the rank that you're just not squeezing the most out of. And so a CTR by rank or ford and then going back through and finding underperforming keywords is one of the things I love doing within Search Console. You could probably immediately add that to your, to your suite of tools.

John Wright: I'm going to do it right after this.

Kyle Roof: I mean, it's. So though you're not, I can tell you from experience, you're not going to get the full 5%. You know, you're not going to fill that gap, but you can get a few percentage points off. And when you add that across an entire site, that's ranking for thousands of keywords and maybe you find 50 to 100 that are underperforming, you know, that turned into a lot of real quick wins.

John Wright: Yeah. So do you have an MCP for. For pop?

Kyle Roof: We're building it right Now.

John Wright: Okay, that's very cool. Um, tell me when it comes out.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, so I think we're gonna be done probably the end of this week. And, um, we're actually building, uh, an AI version of Kyle. So you can actually go and use pop. Um, conversationally.

John Wright: Yeah.

Kyle Roof: Is the idea. So we're, we're trying to get to the non techie crew. You know, we're like people that, that want to use a tool but just don't have the time for the learning curve. Right.

John Wright: Or, or don't even maybe know what the right questions are. And it's like, look, if you're, if you're frozen or you got analysis paralysis. Here you go.

Kyle Roof: Here you go. And you can actually. And, um, you can have a. You can have a conversation with me. It's actually pretty scary.

John Wright: That's awesome.

Kyle Roof: But, um, so, yeah, so, um, the tool. And we're not, you know, getting into marketing. Um, um, yeah, we're not calling it like, you know, meet Billy. What we're actually trying to do from a market perspective is this is the tool, you know, the, uh, you know, so, like, everybody launches their little assistant and like, talk to Susie, our AI assistant, you know, and that to me is a weird disconnect because now it's something. What we're actually trying to do is basically infuse this into the tool that this is. And, um, it's a, It's a vastly superior way to, um, interface. Just tell it what you want and then the tool actually go. And Kyle will go into it for you.

John Wright: That's cool. That must have, like, taken a lot of your messages and said, okay, let's, uh, take, uh, all of your writings and your podcasts and be like, that's what we did.

Kyle Roof: That's exactly what we did. Um, and then, like, throw it in my courses. But, uh, like, what's been a lot of fun is that, um, having a conversation with it and like, how would you answer this kind of question? Or people are probably going to ask you about this and then kind of refining it a little bit. But I would say on the first run it was like 85% correct as how I would respond.

John Wright: Yeah. To it.

Kyle Roof: And it was just kind of fine tuning. And I would say right now we're seeing about 95% correct. There's just like some small things here or there. Uh, but so we're building the mcp, uh, the devs are actually doing that. I'm working on the interface itself to train it up. I'm thinking a couple of weeks we'll have this mcp. We're done I think at the end of this week and we're going to do a little more testing and then maybe end of April we'll have it um, launched, which is pretty exciting.

John Wright: So what other tools would you say would go well with either POP or, and, or the mcp?

Kyle Roof: Um, if you are doing like your own like content creation, like you know, like people that have their own content tool, this would be great because we have a, we have an API already that you can sync into. Because as I mentioned at the beginning of the, of the, of the call, the getting your term counts is, is more important now than I think it's been in a long time.

John Wright: Okay.

Kyle Roof: And so you can use something like POP to double check your counts. So you have a great way that you're already pumping out your content. Do a sanity check, you know, with POP to make sure that you're, you're not going off the rails. Um, also in pop, we have a really good um, we call it a one click silo and this gets into the query panel. So you can basically put in your concept and then we'll find if there's like a page on your site that's already ranking for that term and then other concepts and if you're already ranking for them as well or if you have patience for them on how to create a silo the right way that the AI search wants and Google wants as well, uh, those two kind of things I would think would be great for people that have their own processes to tap in for, you know, $0.09 ago and um, and get that information. I think it costs like $0.09, $0.10, something like that to get better, you know, just, but then 10 cents to, to save yourself so that it's not a bad spend in order to, to make sure that you're not going to get penalized by Google.

John Wright: But we know some people won't spend that 10 cents and.

Kyle Roof: No, absolutely, they'll, they'll spend it in, in arrears after they get hit and then they have to go back and spend a lot more money to fix it. No, nobody likes to buy life insurance

John Wright: or, or they'll, they'll sell their business to someone else that know, took the time and basically started stacking all the wins and said thank you, we're going to acquire this and we're going to optimize your business now.

Kyle Roof: That's right, that's right.

John Wright: Yeah. So let's pivot uh, a bit to content management systems. I built one recently And I'm, I'm imagining, okay, what, what are all the things that I wanted to build back in the day, but when I didn't have a budget and like, nothing got done, both in terms of design and custom features. And, um, I was thinking, I'm like, well, why not include some of these SEO things where here's your content and it's like, can we make it easier such that your content writers get that visibility of Search console? Maybe even POP could go in there.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, for sure. Um, that's always kind of the dream, isn't it, to have, uh, the content management system that everybody will use. People talk about like, why should they use pop? Like, so it's like, I'm getting great results off of, say, one of my competitors, and they're like, should I switch to pop? I'm like, if your team is using it and you guys are doing well, no, the best tool is the one that your team will use. And, um, even though I can tell you that I think my data's better and I can tell you that we think this feature's better, but if your team is using and they're happy, that's great. So if you build something that people will adopt, that's the key. The content team will actually use it and get value out of it. That's the key to any of those kind of things.

John Wright: Yeah. All right, so we've got option A, which is all these new CMSs popping out of the market, and option B, where if you've got like your own one powerful website, do you think people should be really pivoting pretty hard and saying, look, your site, if you can't make these changes fast enough, like, you need to, you need to implement this, you know, AI tech stack, where it's, it's not just design and ux, it's also programming custom features and not having this, like, technical debt has to disappear at this point.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, I mean, multiple won't attempt. It's so like, I, I don't think you can count on them having the foresight to do that. Most people will grind in the way that they've been grinding and, and they'll just grind it straight into the ground and then they'll be forced to change. Uh, nobody, they're, they're called early adopters for a reason. There are some people that will actually adopt and change, but then the, the vast majority will won't. So I don't know that people will get on board with what you're saying just on their own. Something else is Going to have to push them.

John Wright: Yeah, yeah, it could be push them through M and A. I mean like just to take a. Uh, yeah, and it's true. Yeah. Like a couple examples would be our SaaS website. I'm like, I already know that our SaaS website isn't AI ready, but I know exactly what we're going to do to change it such that I can make changes on the site both for content, SEO and design and ux. Um, and I think at some point we're going to be able to look at people's sites because they're exposed. You're going to be able to be like, hey, this site hasn't changed in eight months. We don't know if they don't have a plan behind it, but there's some people that they're just not ready for this and they either don't have the time or they actually don't have the skills. Like they don't know what SEO looks like unless they hire that person.

Kyle Roof: Right, that's right. And uh, uh, to your point as well, I think the bigger things is they just don't know. Like it's not like they're, you know, stopping it from happening or preventing it rapidly. It's just they simply don't know that anxiety and that fear that something's out there, but they just don't really know what they could or couldn't do.

John Wright: Yeah. Because, uh, just to give you an example, what I'm putting inside the CMS is like I created something, but I know other people have used this term before. It's called crowdpost. So it's like I didn't invent it, but I know it's been invented previously and the idea was that I could give people a link and I could give them interview questions, but rather than having to me give an email or a Google Doc and format and manual work, the whole thing would be automated. Like they'd be forced to include a picture. Uh, they could do things anonymously, they can actually do polls and I can actually do like interviews at scale and just kind of mix up all the questions and have like an automated template. And I think this would be a great way of like, you know, making it super easy to get content out of people and you know, m and having that insight to kind of go, okay, what's going to be really good content that I know Google's going to respect and could I make this super easy to give to like high value people where it's like, you know, it's like how, how Do I make this super easy for you to just, like, click a link and be like, oh, this. Let. Let me just do this, you know?

Kyle Roof: Right. Yeah. Any ways to reduce friction would be the. And I think you're thinking the right way for sure.

John Wright: All right. So, yeah, it's, uh. There. There's a lot covered there. Um, I think I need to. I think I need to get back into, uh, page options.

Kyle Roof: Has this been a validating. A, uh, validating session for you?

John Wright: It's been both validating as well as, like, all right, you know, we're just, uh, we're just getting some extra money in the bank, and we've not hired an SEO. It's been like four years. So I. What I have been appreciating is doing this podcast, getting a chance to talk to people like you. And I'm like, okay, I feel like I know what I need to do. Um, I think my personal problem over the years has been analysis paralysis. But, um, there's been a couple guys that have been mentors that have just said, look, I see you have that paralysis. Do this. Just do it on the other side. You're going to be fine. And, uh, one guy that did that was Victor Karpenko. And he's just like, look, it's pretty basic. It's like, here's Surfer SEO. Here's your search console. Here's your analytics. Here's Ahrefs, blah, blah, blah, keyword research. This is the content. 4000 words. Go do it.

Kyle Roof: There you go.

Narrator: All right.

John Wright: Here we go.

Kyle Roof: It is. It is pretty much like that. Yeah, I think that's. Yeah, I'd say that's fairly accurate. Um, it's really just having a repeatable. You need that repeatable system. Right. And the thing you. You have to be mindful you're not going to be right 100% of the time. Yeah, they just not. But you can be more right to your competitors, and you can do it. You can do it in a system that's repeatable, that, you know, this will consistently work. This will consistently get. Move the needle and get things going to where they need to go. Not a hundred percent of the time, but the majority of the time. And that's all you need.

John Wright: Yeah, that's why I like testing, and that's why every time I see you post once in a while, you talk about case studies and things you're doing. I mean, some of your experiments have been so crazy. I'm like, wow, this is, uh, your Lorem Ipsum one. It's just like that's legendary. It's like, people still talk about it today.

Kyle Roof: It still works, you know, like when, um, because that's the first question that everybody always asks, like, oh, that doesn't work today, does it? And that's always part of the talk. I'll show a new page I put up a few months ago, and we're

John Wright: in parasite SEO in igaming. It's ridiculous right now.

Kyle Roof: Sure, I bet.

John Wright: Yeah.

Kyle Roof: I mean, well, as soon as one person in iGaming gets an idea, I mean, everybody's watching everybody so closely, you know, then everybody's going to jump on. Right.

John Wright: And it's difficult not to build more affiliate sites because, uh, I keep finding, like, you know, I do all this keyword research, uh, and I'm like, I find these websites, I'm like, I know they're making money because they're targeting keywords and they're ranking for it with the not identical template. They mix it all up. But I'm like, it's single page. I'm like, this is brutal. And then of course you do like I do with my geeky stuff. I'm like, I'm like, let me look at the DNS, see what they have. I'm like, okay. Separate Cloudflare accounts. But I know it's the same owner, right?

Kyle Roof: Exactly.

John Wright: It's working.

Kyle Roof: Yeah. And that's actually something that I learned, actually, uh, after the Lorem Ipsum thing. Um, nothing's in my name anymore.

John Wright: Yeah. Why?

Kyle Roof: Nothing's in my name anymore. Yeah, we don't. You don't. Don't put your name on anything you care about.

John Wright: Yeah, got it. I'll try to remember that for when I write content. And, uh, we'll see what we do in the, in the future moving forward. Kyle, thank, uh, you so much for doing this. I want to pass it back to you one last time. How can people get a hold of you? And of course, tell us about pop.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, Page Optimizer Pro is where I'm at. That's my main focus. Um, as I mentioned, we've got AI Kyle, that should be coming out, and I think it's going to make the tool really, even if you're a pro, even if you know what you're doing, it's just going to be easier to use. Um, and then also, if you want more human interaction, something else we have is what we call Light Glove, where we do it for you. It's kind of a agency ish model. Um, but we have, I think 100 agencies use us and so the idea is that um, it's at a price point that there's still a margin for you and um, you can kind of get. Because a lot of people like they want to use the tool or they have the ability as the tool, but it's just, it's, it's time and resources and so basically uh, you can have AI Kyle pretty soon, but if you don't like AI Kyle or you want somebody that's a little more hands on and actually human, um, we have that for you as well. So we've got a lot going on. To try to bring this type of data to where you're at. That's kind of, that's one of my focus in the last couple years, is trying to make this as accessible as possible so you can get effective SEO at a, um, at a really good price.

John Wright: Yeah, so it's like otherwise I don't have to do these interviews once a week where I'm asking questions, but I'm really just taking a ton of notes. Thank you so much.

Kyle Roof: This is actually not being posted anywhere. This was just your way to beta, beta test a few ideas. Uh, we'll do a little um, workshop on some concepts. That'd be great.

John Wright: We will post a live in a week.

Kyle Roof: That'd be great.

John Wright: Awesome.

Kyle Roof: Thanks. Thanks so much you man. I appreciate it. Have a great day.

Narrator: Let's give a shout out to a few affiliate program platforms that are supporting this podcast that includes IG Suite, Afila and Intellectics. Thanks for the support.

John Wright: Support.

Narrator: And if you're looking to launch your affiliate program or affiliate network, check out the software and uh, learn more at RevenueOptimization IO. This is Revenue optimization with Statstrome, where better data leads to better decisions. If you're not measuring it, you're guessing.

John Wright: See you next time.