Why Timing and Vision Matters

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Rethink Sales podcast. I'm, uh, Mark Danolo.

Speaker A: And I'm Michelle Siegel.

Speaker B: And we're talking about a really interesting topic in this series called Transformation Delusion. Why do we expect big results and repeat the same old patterns and how do we change that? And we have a great guest on today, Michelle, Amanda Eisel, who's CEO of Zealous. And Amanda has had an incredible career and done some amazing things at Zealous. So we're going to be able to talk about that, talk about transformation. So Amanda, very excited to have you. Welcome.

Speaker C: Great to see you, Mark. Hi, Michelle. Awesome to be here today. Thanks for inviting me.

Speaker B: So we've followed you for years, Amanda, uh, and we've had, uh, some adventures in PE together and watched your career and uh, I'd love to hear a little bit about your story if you'd kind of share that with everyone in terms of how did you get to where you are now and take us on the journey?

Speaker C: Sure. So I always say it's been a little bit of an atypical path. I was the classic, uh, went into consulting out of undergrad, didn't know what I wanted to do, so got a job offer at McKinsey and took that job offer, um, and then kind of continued on the path of not quite sure, um, where to go. So, you know, did business school, went back to McKinsey. And I think it was, I don't know, I was around 30 when I got an offer to go into private equity operating group. And to me it was just like this incredible opportunity to expand my knowledge of how to transform a business. Think not just about solving a specific problem, but how do you holistically think about a, ah, business and transform it over a period of time? And so, um, was really lucky to do that for over a decade. It's actually how I got into technology. I came to Bain Capital only really understanding the retail consumer side and got to work with the firm's technology investments. Lot of founder run businesses. Um, and long story short, I started working with one in 2019 called Zealous. Uh, I was the operating partner on it. Got a chance to interim, um, run it, and then um, got uh, an opportunity to jump over full time and be CEO. And you know, I always say now, I can't believe I even thought more than a second about that because it's been four years now and just what an incredible, incredible job I have getting to run this business and lead so many extraordinary people. And so that's been the Path to here.

Speaker B: Amazing. I. Now I. I've always looked at private equity, and I've thought, you know, that. That, uh, it goes back to like, what was that? Richard Gere and Pretty Woman? Wasn't he like a PE Guy or something? You know, And I'm like, wow, that looks like such a cool job.

Speaker C: Right? Oh, my gosh.

Speaker B: And so I've always thought.

Speaker C: I'm not actually sure he did private equity, Mark. But I am going to go back, I'm going to ask Chad after this and find out. And that's not what I remember from that movie.

Speaker A: I thought he was remembered when that movie.

Speaker B: He was like a guy who bought and sold companies. Right. Anyway, that was the impression I had. But. But it looks like. It looks like such private equity, looks like such an interesting job. And tell us a little bit. Tell us what it's like. It sounds like so much fun to go in and actually change companies.

Speaker C: Oh, it's a fascinating job. And I think, uh, it's a fascinating job if you're on the deal side and you're constantly looking at so many different businesses and getting really good at this question of how do I sometimes in the matter of weeks or months, be able to go really, really deep to make a big investment on a company? Um, and I think personally, on the operations side, it's the best job, um, of the bunch because you get this opportunity to say, gosh, the firm I work for saw, uh, unbelievable opportunity in this business. And now I get to go in and partner with the management team to figure out how do we actually make that happen, and to do this tricky thing, which is you always walk in with a plan and then reality hits and you have to navigate all the twists and turns that come with that. And so, um, um, yeah, it's a really cool job, but. But all with this underlying belief of we need to drive a transformation to create value, and that transformation is going to look different based on the company and the opportunity, but that is what you're there to do.

Speaker B: Mm M. And so if you were to compare private equity to leading a company like zealous, what's. What feels different about it is that I'm sure the urgency is still there. Um, but is it that you get to focus more, go in deeper? I'm sure it's a lot of those things, but what's the experience like in terms of how it's different?

Speaker C: Yeah, actually, one of our founders, uh, when I was contemplating taking this job, he said he's like, look, Amanda, you have the job of being the really cool aunt right now. And that's great. You get to be with the child a lot. But when you take over a CEO, you're the parent. And so with that comes some, um, some real lows. But with it also comes the highest of highs and just something that you can't experience. And I think that's the best way to describe it. If you're just. You're in it thick and thin, you've got the team you're navigating through, you're spending a lot of your time, um, doing the things that. It's not that when you're in private equity, you don't think about those things. You know, you hope your leader is, is doing them, but you're spending a lot of time with your people, with your clients, which, just understanding, um, the business in a way that, you know, sometimes data can only tell you so much. Um, and it's really getting in there that you figure out how to navigate through it.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So as the aunt, I guess you can walk away when the, when the temper tantrums started, you know, here you got to own them. Right. So you're around all the time.

Speaker C: Yes, yes. There's really no one to hand the child to, as it turns out.

Speaker A: That's pretty funny. So I want to ask you about transformation, but first, can you just talk to us a little bit about what Zealous does as a company just to lay that foundation for everyone that's listening?

Speaker C: Sure. So our aspiration is to modernize the healthcare financial experience for all. Um, and so in doing that, um, we are bringing together everything that you, as a health care consumer, likely feel along the financial journey of health care and making it run more seamlessly and efficiently. We provide price transparency to about 60 million Americans. Uh, we help, um, payers and providers by pricing about $150 billion of what goes payer to provider each year. And then, uh, we are the payments rails for about $300 billion of what goes payer to provider. And so in doing all of that, making the healthcare financial experience work in America.

Speaker A: Very good. Um, so you mentioned without any prompting, that you are working on and responsible for transformation. And my question to you is, like, how do you define or how would you describe what a transformation means to you?

Speaker C: A transformation to me means, um, something that requires comprehensive, total change across an organization. It, you know, it generally has to do with the vision, with the people, with the processes. It's not something you can just pick up the phone, call one person and say, let's change this tomorrow. It's something that holistically takes, um, an entire team and orchestra to drive through a company.

Speaker A: So, um, it appears that this has been pretty successful and you're on a good path. And what I understand is you've had incredible growth, um, since you've been there. And how did you, how did you, what was your challenge when you started in the growth of the company? And what is it that you saw when you started and like, how did this take place? So how did you start to get that growth that you were looking for?

Speaker C: Um, I think part of was my challenge in coming in was helping people at the company, our own team, understand the total vision of Zealous. Zealous was an extraordinary thing to come into. And I had such a unique view in being first the operating partner and having interim run the business. And it wasn't like I was just coming into this, you know, having a couple conversations about understanding what this business was. I was, it was deep, um, into it at the point that I stepped in. Um, uh, and I should also say Zealous was during that period of time, it was growing. Well, by some people's standards, it was growing extraordinarily. Um, well. And so I wasn't stepping into, you know, a turnaround or something where it's like, we've got to restart growth. Um, I knew I was stepping into a business that, having seen so many businesses across my time at McKinsey and Bain Capital, it was one of the most, I'm going to call it, structurally and strategically, well put together businesses I had ever seen in terms of the pieces that had come together, um, in Zealous. And I was also stepping into a business that had taken such care of its clients and the belief from the beginning that if we had client success, if we invested in the growth of our clients, the business would thrive. Um, so, like so many great things to step into, um, as the CEO of any business. Um, but at the time I was stepping into, um, a business where so many people just said, well, we did all these acquisitions, but is this like a holding company or are these pieces together for a reason? I was also stepping in at an interesting time. It feels like a lifetime ago, um, in that we were kind of coming out of COVID I think maybe we went back into Covid. But I say that because that was a really interesting time in which people had not been together. We hadn't been together as a company, we hadn't been together with our clients. Um, and so all of that informed, um, you Know, so much of what I did in the early stages of helping to articulate that, um, vision. Why are these pieces together and what are we going to do to bring them together, um, more holistically, both internally and with our clients? Um, and then also just bringing a team back together, um, an extraordinarily good team that I think, you know, at the time just needed, um, some clarity on where we were going and get moving on it.

Speaker B: So when you, when you talk about that idea of vision or mission, Amanda, how do you, first of all, how do you get people to want to make a change? And more importantly, how do you define a mission that is going to be something more than, hey, we just need to grow the business better, we need to do financially better. How do you make it something that people are willing to really commit to sacrifice for, viscerally mean something to them versus we're just going to make, you know, make a bigger company or make a, you know, more successful financially. Success. Successful company.

Speaker C: Yeah. Um, over time, I'd say is the punchline. And with time being, you know, something I'd say now if you told me it was going to take that much time, I would have said at the beginning, how is that possible? That's like the former consultant in private equity in the background as opposed to like actually leading people, um, through something. Um, and I will say, not without mistakes either. Like, I, you know, I thought about this question of, well, wait, how, how did we get to telling the vision, um, of this company? I think it wasn't until maybe I was in the seat for like two years that we finally said like, aha, that was it, that was the story. And I tried a bunch of ways up front of like, you know, well, let's do like the consultant version of long document, lots of facts. What, like, didn't resonate, that didn't work. And so to take with that, we kept experimenting. Um, and one of the clicking points, I think, looking back was the point that we chose to tell the story through the lens of a health care consumer of everything that we did. And, and bear in mind that's a little bit atypical because so much of what we do is through a payer and a provider that impacts a health care consumer and how they experience healthcare. But, but you wouldn't normally think to tell the story that way. Um, and all of this, by the way, I should say I'm talking holistically of it, came together because of the team and the team that was assembled, um, over time of an extraordinary chief marketing Officer who was willing to go, um, along the ride of saying, well, that's not quite it on the story and we don't have it quite right yet, and turn it around. And, um, extraordinary presidents of the businesses who, you know, were willing to say, gosh, like, what we have is really good, but let me paint a vision for what it can be. And so it was all of them coming along on that journey too, that really got the flywheel going.

Speaker B: A couple of really important points there. Number one, it's not like it happens right away, right? So it's not like you just come up with this thing and it's like, oh, that's it. I mean, it takes time, right? And I think it's. It's interesting that you compare it with how you might look at it as a consultant or a private equity investor. Like, why can't we make this happen? Right? In reality, it takes time. Um, the other is, I think, gets to the human, which, you know, and I'm always making the argument that businesses are human and, uh, business kind of imitates life, right? So we can only get so passionate about helping out a payer or provider. But if we're helping a healthcare consumer, right, we can identify with that person, with that human, and we may be willing to do a lot more and care a lot more about that. I'm just kind of projecting that, you know, does that resonate with 100%?

Speaker C: I mean, it's one of the advantages of this business of we are all that person. And I think we went through that journey at some point of, okay, I'm going to tell the story of, um, it was a, um, illustrative story about, um, a human going through a healthcare experience. But then you turn and say, well, tell me your story. And most everyone can tell you a really challenging financial experience they've had going through our healthcare system. And so people start to relate then and understand of like, oh, you're trying to solve that. Yeah, that was really hard for me. Or that was really hard for my sister when she was having a baby, or my mom when she was going through cancer. You can start to pull back to. That's. That's why we're doing what we're doing, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, because when you get to a certain point, kind of the passion, when it takes a long time, like you said, Amanda, the passion can start to wear out after a while. So you need something to really keep that meaningful. So I think that's a great lesson that you're bringing up, which is maybe I can describe it a little bit more, um, I guess in consultantes, which is when you're telling your narrative in your mission, make sure you really care about the character. Right. The main character.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Which is the consumer.

Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, yeah. And that comes to the company culture and leadership and belief that that's what's most important. Yeah. Yes.

Speaker C: Well, you know, we're talking a lot about people here because it is the most important factor in any of this. We were also pretty very deliberate as a company of. One of the, the first things we did, um, my team was to set up, we call them our VFOs, our vital few objectives and the first make Zealous a great place to work. And it still is, uh, four years later, that is our number one objective and then it's objectives about what we're going to do in the healthcare financial experience. But we did that with that same mindset of, you know, you're sitting on a plane, uh, and the air masks come down, you've got to put on your own before your child so that you can help. And so we take that to heart of how do we make this an extraordinary place to work? Because we have really important work to do for the health care system. We've got to make this a place that you feel like you can come and give your all. And that was particularly important, I think, when I took over and we were, you know, I don't know, 12 months, some 18 months something into Covid where people were just feeling that constant state of fatigue and exhaustion. And so we were very deliberate about saying there are things we can do to make this better and let's start doing them. And we've really, um, built on that and just, and created a culture that we're really proud of.

Speaker A: At Zealous, you mentioned earlier that you were very fortunate because you have a great team. What does a great team mean to you? What is it that you look for and what is it that makes the team here at Zealous a great one?

Speaker C: Yeah, well, I talk about this a lot, um, with the broader team at Zealous. So our slt, it's our top, um, hundred, uh, some leaders, um, about what I look for on my team. So first and foremost I want to make sure they're quite good at the job they're going to do. In fact, they're all better at the jobs that they do than I could ever be at their jobs. And I look to them as experts in what they do. Number two, I want to know that when people are on the field. And it's really important to me that everyone knows we're not always on the field. We can't be. You shouldn't be, you should take breaks. We're all athletes. But when you're on the field, you are giving this 110%. Um, and then the third thing is, and this is really important to the team, you have to be someone who knows how to receive the ball and you have to be someone who knows how to pass the ball. And that to me is just if you're on a team, you got to know how to be on a team. And, and so those three things I always say, like, you can't just be two of them, you can't be extraordinary at two and not know how to do one. Because it takes all three of those things for people to come to the table that way and be able to perform. So that's what I look for. And then we spend an extraordinary amount of time as a team and in team development we have um, coaches that uh, coach many of us individually, that coaches as a team. We'll have some of those coaches come when we're doing an off site just to observe us. Especially sometimes if I feel like we're in a bit of a rut to say, come in. Your job is to watch us and help coach us of like, where are we getting into ditches together and what do we need to do to get out? So look, it's kind of like a marriage. It's a relationship. Like you're working together all of the time and you've got to figure out how to communicate and be open to. It's not always going to be perfect, but we're going to commit to it and figuring out how we make it better as we go.

Speaker B: Awesome. So I want to ask about challenges and um, just kind of giving some broad background. Amanda. We've been doing this research, seeing them in three big areas like problem definition. It's like we're solving the wrong thing or we're not clear about what we're trying to accomplish and we get partway down the road and then we've discovered that or precedent. So we're repeating what we've done before. We get into the same patterns and uh, of repetition and you know, we preserve the prior order, that kind of thing. And then of course, people, culture, motivators, things like that. So as you've gone along on this journey, what to you were some of the big challenge areas and you know, what kind of advice might you give

Speaker C: around those um, well, I mean we didn't talk about it earlier, but I'd say m. When I came in, it was interesting. So I was the ah, third CEO in two years. Uh, and, and I remember somebody who's still on my team and is wonderful and I count on her daily, but she said to me, please don't use, uh, the T word. She meant transformation. It just constantly keeps changing and nothing against you, but you're going to come in and want to change more and we just can't take it. And I was like, huh, ok. Because yes, of course I did want to come in and change things, but, but that was a, that was really helpful feedback and guidance to me to just again recognize where people were. And I understood, stood deeply, why were they there? Why were they in that position? How did we get here? Um, uh, and to move accordingly. And it turns out like, you don't actually need to use the word transformation to transform things. Sometimes you can just start doing things. Um, and then people wake up down the road and realize like, oh gosh, things have changed in a positive way. And now I actually have the energy to hear that word and talk about it and drive it. Um, so, you know, I think that that alone, what you walk into as the CEO or any leader, um, generally, you know, it's. There are challenges there and the important thing is just understand the context and create your playbook of what you're going to go do accordingly. I always love that question of like, well, what is your playbook? What do you do? And it's like there can't be one. There's got to be a. Understand the circumstances and figure out how you move from there. Um, so that's a big one. Um, I'd say, you know, number two, and the one that like, you got to be able to, like every private equity executive would understand is there's always the cost challenge of the. Well, we have these big aspirations, but how do we fund it? How do we go do it? Um, I think that was a big one pretty early for me as it. We had not necessarily started on our data journey yet, um, in terms of bringing all of our data together in a foundational way. And that's a tough journey to get started on because it's a lot of money and not one that you can point to any roi, um, in the first several years. And so look, that um, that to me is a classic. Um, well, you build out your case for doing it and um, as most CEOs know, hopefully you've got good relationships with Your board and supportive board members that you can go talk to and, and rally the support to go do something like that, because it becomes incredibly important, um, as you go. Um, and then the third one I would, I think is really important to talk about is, um, uh, your own feelings of doubt as you go through this and your own resilience factors. Um, because if you are really trying to do a big transformation, it will go wrong and lots of people will doubt that it will work. And you will hear that. Um, and so the challenge of how do you, you know, how do you keep navigating through that? What's your support system and what do you have around you to keep focused, um, to make sure that you're hearing the feedback you need to, because that is how you course correct and go, but also still keep the resolve and the resilience to keep driving.

Speaker B: So let's talk about that last one. Amanda. I've heard this in other conversations, similar conversations where you have to have belief, right? And your team has to have that same type of belief, right? It's total commitment. Uh, but how do you get through that personally in terms of getting support advice, staying positive when things aren't going the way you want? How do you do that in practical terms?

Speaker C: I think a multitude of strategies. And you said it of, you have to have your team around you. But it's worth noting you probably won't when you walk in. And even over time. And I could tell you today on a number of things, we're driving. My team would be honest of like, there's some folks who are like, look, I don't necessarily agree on that point. I will say it and I will commit to driving it, but you're never going to have your full team that is like, yes, this is the most brilliant thing and let's all go. It's just not how reality works. Um, but you do need a handful of people around you on your team who have that deeply. Um, and I have been blessed to have that, to build that. Um, uh, because that does help a lot. And they see it at the times where it is your job as the leader, that you are the one inspiring and driving, but great teams also. Um, see, I think the times that their leaders need that and step in and do it, um, a set of external people around me. So I had a CEO coach, um, on a set schedule when I started, and I still talk to her regularly. And so that person is great to be able to go to, to say, here's everything I'm seeing and feeling and, you know, that person who's been in it in the weeds with so many CEOs can generally help you calibrate that, um, and work through it. Uh, in my case, I do have a wonderful, wonderful board and knew them well, stepping into this, having many of them being colleagues before or worked with closely. Um, and I've just always taken the mindset of I will never be worried that you don't think I'm smart or you don't think I know what I'm doing, because I know you do believe those things. Um, and that that allows me just to go to them and say, like, look, this can be a crazy idea, but I'm not afraid to, like, put it out there or to talk to you about what I'm struggling with. I'm not worried you're going to judge me for any of this. I just need a great thought partner who can help me think through this and either say, like, you're going in the wrong direction or no, I know you're running into a lot of obstacles right now, but this is the right direction. Keep going. And so that helps a lot. So take all of that as, like, it's a lot of people around you, um, a lot of people that you trust that you can talk openly and honestly with that help you calibrate as you go.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I've heard the phrase of CEOs, it's lonely at the top. But what you're saying is you're not alone, you're connecting with people. Right? You're actually. You got a support group around you. Uh, what about, um. And you're talking about the leadership team, but also employees in general. What about resistance? Did you run into any? I assume probably not outright resistance, but anything in terms of passive, like, you know, yeah, I'm going along, but I'm not really. Or I've seen this film before. Maybe like that person you mentioned. You know, how many CEOs have been here and tried this before? What kind of resistance did you see? Like that?

Speaker C: Oh, for sure. I mean, and. And again, it's a place like, you're never going to get to 100%. Um, we do do employee engagement, um, surveys. And so you could see that, um, much more pronounced in the early days. In fact, my team would laugh the early days when those would come out. It would be like, okay, who's gonna be, like, the person who's on call as I read these comments, if I'm ready to, like, like, turn in my, my, uh, papers today? Um, uh, but that has built, you know, over time. And I think over time, we also gained a confidence as a team as we started to do what we were doing as a team and felt like it was working to say, this place, this. That we're creating, this culture, this thing that we're doing is not for everyone. And that's okay. We want the people here who share in this vision, who share this excitement, who want to go do this. That's what we're. What we're trying to create. And so, you know, you just kind of, like, you get a little bit of a thicker skin of the folks who it's not for them and say, that's part of the journey. My, My Chro and I still laugh to this day about, um, a glass door assessment, um, that she sent me. I think it might have been like, on a Friday night. And it was like, you know, thumbs down for the company, thumbs down for the CEO. And the explanation was like, this people or this, this place, and these people are whack. And then just every answer was, whack, whack, whack. We were like, okay, well, that. That person wasn't along for the journey. Just keep going.

Speaker B: Hopefully the language didn't give that person away. Like, they, uh, use that word all the time.

Speaker C: It gave us a good laugh.

Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. So I want to ask you the other side of the question, which would be around critical success factors. One thing that you've said that you didn't really say was a critical success factor, but that I fully believe, because we're also involved in transformational work frequently, is that companies don't stick around long enough with that transformation to see it through. So they stop because they're not seeing results. And that gets to the whole see it through piece. And, uh, it takes time. So from your perspective, what would you say are some key critical success factors that every leader needs to think about as they consider transformation?

Speaker C: I think before you do a transformation, you got to spend a lot of time with yourself on understanding the why behind it. Um, having come from McKinsey, where they talk about, well, part of the issue is, you know, 50% of the time you're not solving the right problem. Um, the. The whole notion, uh, which is true, um, the whole notion of saying, well, before I'm going on a transformation, do I understand the problem? Do I understand what I'm trying to transform and why and where does it go? Um, and look, you're going to get so many questions about it along the way. And so if you haven't thought about that. Like, it seems like, you know, you'll, you'll find yourself in a ditch pretty quickly. Um, two, I do think you need to think about the resourcing of any transformation that you're going on and that it just, it can't be something off the side of people's desks that will never work. Going to people who are working hard and saying, okay, now I'm just going to pile something else on and please make it work. Like, that's not a great strategy. Um, at Zealous, we have an entire transformation team. Um, uh, some report to me, some report in through the business units and functions, and their entire job is to be the scaffolding of transformation. I think one of the things that we realized early along and how we were trying to do things is we had a lot of unbelievably, um, exceptional executives good at their jobs, but they weren't necessarily fluent in how do you communicate some of these things? How do you track how we're doing? Um, and we looked at that and said, I don't want you to pause what you do. I don't want you to go stop selling clients or building software or any of that to figure that stuff out. Let's put the people around you that can be that translation, um, layer that can be that scaffolding across that makes it work. We invested heavily, um, in that and that helped a lot. Um, and then three, I think with any transformation, what you hope for, um, and generally longer than you would like, but what you hope for is real hard financial results at the end. But there is this time between when you launch in that time, um, that I think it's unbelievably important to celebrate the successes along the way, the milestones. Be truthful, obviously, about where it's falling short and how you're going to course correct from there. Um, but we, you know, we, we have a language, uh, at Zealous, that we use throughout all of our leadership meetings with our board. It's one page, it's everybody's first page in a presentation that says what's going well. And the other side of the page says what needs work. And that allows us and everything we're doing to celebrate what's going well. There always is something and it should be celebrated. And, and then to be honest about, okay, well, what isn't working yet that we still need to work on? Um, it's basically growth mindset, um, but it allows us to do that along the way.

Speaker A: Okay, that's well stated. So Understand the why. Make sure you've got the right support infrastructure in place, that scaffolding like communication. I got to tell you, you're. Yeah, I completely agree with you on that. Including tracking and then celebrating success along the way. Because as we discussed, it's really, it is a marathon, it's not a sprint. And people do need to be taken along that journey. Make sure you stop at the water station, right?

Speaker C: Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker B: With the financial part of that, Amanda, Um, thinking about stories that we've seen in other companies as well. Sometimes there's a very long period before you start to see the financial result. Sometimes there's actually a dip before you see the financial result. Um, how do you keep people going during that period? I know you're celebrating the successes, but, um, did you see any, you know, without talking about anything confidential, did you see any period where the results were not happening the way you wanted? Or maybe it was discouraging, like, okay, maybe we're not approaching this the right way because it was showing up in the numbers.

Speaker C: Yes, for sure. And it's um, this goes back a little bit to uh, well, both zealous, being very thoughtful and how it's put together. And I will say also an exceptional CFO partner that I have that what we're looking for is yes, we at the overall level of zealous, um, have targets and goals of what we're committed to. But then underneath it are lots of different solutions and products and initiatives that look, some go quite well and overperform and some absolutely do not. There are parts of the business where we've invested in new solutions saying this is what healthcare needs. But healthcare moves very slowly, unfortunately at times. Or we can get this done in a year and then we get into it and we realize that's actually a three year journey before we're going to get there. But what we really tried to do is set it up so that at the overall level we're still hitting the commitments that we need to and then we're able to course correct, um, underneath. And our team knows that as well, that that's part of, um, being on this journey. It shouldn't just be one part of the business that is continually over performing and over performing and over performing and somebody else can underperform. It's more, um, over time we're each going to have these ebbs and flows and then we're, you know, we're managing the business to that.

Speaker A: I have a question. Um, so something that's near and dear to my heart is AI And I know that you are thinking about the role of generative AI in your business. It's funny you mentioned ChatGPT. You were going to chat GPT something I call her chatty and she's my friend. Right. So I got her trained well I guess as they say. But we're using AI here at Sales Globe not just to improve productivity and efficiency of our consultants, but what we're expecting is that the time that they get back gives them an opportunity to do more critical thinking and problem solving with our clients. So how do you see AI in your business supporting you, achieving your growth goals and providing that client experience that I know you're focused on as an organization.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's so much of where I get excited about the power of Gen AI to simplify what we do and simplify the way that we work with our clients. And I say that of a. Inherently what we do in healthcare, Healthcare being I will say the most complex industry I've seen out of working across multiple um, industries and then the technology part of it and the payment side of it. I mean this business exists because of the complexity of healthcare. So you can imagine it's rather complex um, to me the ability to use Gen AI to cut through that. So like an example of if we are working with a client across multiple solutions and see that in one solution their volume has dipped or something is off, which means that's a problem for them because that means they're going to get um, less savings, less revenue. In the old world you would have to call and say we see a problem. Do you see the problem? Sometimes they might not have seen the problem or have any answers to it. In the new world to be able to look across and say okay, the technology has identified that there is a problem and already helped us by looking across, identify three reasons this problem is probably happening. Can we talk to you about that? That is like night and day difference in how to interact and partner together. And so that's where I start to get just really excited about how it can make something that is complex simpler. Um, and then there's all the ways within healthcare the gen is just uh, it is ripe for use of um, you know I'll give you an example of. In our payment integrity, um, in our editing business it used to be that um, we would have all these people that would be looking across, changing regulations, changing plan designs, writing edits, putting them into production. And now large language models can do all of that. See the changes can tee up, uh, these are the changes that need to happen to the technology and humans can be used to check all of that. That just like dramatically expands our ability to have reach and impact. So all of that is happening across the business on daily basis and I think it's quite exciting for where we're headed.

Speaker B: So some of the things you talk about with AI Amanda, uh, it's doing things that aren't getting done now, like finding those patterns. We're not seeing those patterns. And some of the things are actually doing things that people are doing now, but they're doing it very slowly or inefficiently. How do you see AI in your business changing job roles in terms of um, either eliminating roles or moving people to higher level types roles. What, what do you, what do you see there?

Speaker C: So we um, openly talk about this as a company from our perspective of when, when everything started happening. I will say with Jenny I. Which um, or maybe it was just earlier this year that I started to see this evolution of you know, so many CEOs who were basically saying like uh, you know, you're all going to lose your jobs or what are just like things that were like, I know, dire in black and white. And instead I believe what our chief Data officer says all the time, which is AI is not going to take your job. People who know how to use AI are going to get the jobs going forward. It's not black or white. It's that all workers need to adapt to this. Can do 30% of your job, um, such that you can go on and do other things. But that is, that is how we talk about it as a moral obligation at zealous of if this is where the world is headed. We feel like whether you work here or somewhere else, we want to train you to know how to use AI safely, um, within the constructs of what we do, particularly important in health care. But we feel like that is our obligation to train you. And so that's how we talk about it. Of this is what we see, that's what we're going to do and then back it up with um, the training and the way that we incorporate it into, into zealous.

Speaker B: Awesome. So if you think back on the past few years and this transformation that you've gone through, what if anything would you have done differently?

Speaker C: Oh, I think I personally would have understood best as I could have this timing point, um, and that things would take longer and again that's okay. This business has done phenomenally well over um, over the four years that I've been here. And so I say that as a little bit of don't beat yourself up, it's going to be fine. But some of this stuff is going to take longer. And accept that and acknowledge that. Because I think, as we talked about earlier, when you are the leader of a transformation, so much of it is put on your air mask and be ready to keep going and to lead others through that. Um, so that's one big. And then the second thing that I always say is, I think in any transformation, you have to be clear that it's not just the right idea, but it's the right time. There's definitely have been things that I've done at, uh, Zealous that I look back and I say, that was actually the right idea, but it was totally the wrong time for it. We hadn't done the two things that needed to happen ahead of time for that to be successful or for other reasons. Um, but to have a more critical eye to that, of finding the combination of right time, um, and right idea.

Speaker B: So then you get a phone call tomorrow and it's another CEO, and they're like, amanda, we're going to be going through this big change in our company. Um, I need some advice. And, uh, either on the spot or you sit down for a cup of coffee. What kind of. Of advice would you give them? What two or three things would you tell them to say? Okay, this is what you have to remember during this process.

Speaker C: Um, number one would be, do you have your support network around you? Do you have those people that you're going to call and listen to along the way? If not, pause until you have those people around you? Um, number two, back to the point of have you truly resourced it properly? And again, not just the resourcing I talked about, transformation team or not, every company has a different way that they do that. But so much of the. Have you said no to other things? You're about to launch into this giant transformation. Presumably you got a team that was already working 100%. What are you taking off the list? How are you creating space and time for this, this transformation? Um, and then three would be. Pitch it to me. Do you have your story like, why are you. What is the transformation and why are you doing it? And. And I think if you can't do that succinctly, then again, pause until you're ready to proceed. To go.

Speaker B: Yeah, great advice. And I think number, uh, three is probably the foundational one. Right. So pitch it to me. So what's the reason? What's the why? What's your story. Why is this even happening? Before you even think about resourcing and getting support, let's make sure we're actually solving the right thing.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Well, Amanda, thanks very much for your time. We're uh, really glad you joined us and uh, we always learn a lot from these conversations. I think we learned a ton from this one. And thanks for sharing all these ideas with us. And how can people learn more about you and what you're doing? Where should they go?

Speaker C: Absolutely. You can Find me on LinkedIn. We post a bunch of, um, terrific zealous content. I post my own content so you can find m me there.

Speaker B: Awesome.

Speaker A: Great. Thank you Amanda.

Speaker B: Thanks Amanda. Great seeing you. Thanks for joining us. And remember, SalesGlobe is a revenue growth consulting and services firm focused on helping our clients reach their revenue growth aspirations through better solution development and operationalizing to get results.