From Amazon Studios to Vertical Streaming ft. Roy Price, Founder of N1BW

Speaker A: Good morning everybody. I'm Charlie Fink. I'm here with Ted shilowitz for the aixr podcast. It's Friday, October 30th, 2026. Kind of spooky. Ted's in a spooky place in the woods there. For those of you who are on audio, uh, where are you, Ted?

Speaker B: I'm in the Blue Ridge Mountains today. I've been uh, last few weeks as you, a lot of our listeners that listen in know. I was all over the Midwest, I was in Kansas, ah, Nebraska, um, South Dakota, uh, Wyoming, Montana, um, now the last few weeks we've been in Georgia, Florida, uh, Tennessee. We went to Dollywood, Dollywood yesterday.

Speaker A: So are you and your wife just have a, have a map and you're checking places off what's going

Speaker B: on? Sort of. It's, it's, you know, my, my crazy life with all these startups and universities that I'm helping kind of brings me to these places and some boards that I'm on. I'm on the board of the First Entertainment Credit Union and the credit union for Hollywood and we have a uh, a digital uh, bank, uh, concept, uh, that's based out of Georgia called Cinefi. So we were there for board meetings and then Florida stuff and then now we're up in the Blue Ridge Mountains and a couple of days we were in Gatlinburg, Tennessee which if you've never been to Gatlinburg, Tennessee, it's quite something, let me tell you.

Speaker A: Well, it's, it's great that you, you uh, and Jody are able to enjoy it. So uh, let's get to the news. I don't know where Rody is at, but we'll jump on the news right now. Um, we've got a great guest, Roy Price, uh, former um, head of Amazon Prime Video. He's launching a vertical streamer. So it's a great follow up to our conversation with Angela Yu of Stowreel last week.

Speaker B: Mhm. Absolutely.

Speaker A: So top story this week of course has been big tech earnings, uh, and uh, no one is earning because they are spending all their money on AI. In fact, it's like everybody has got their own Metaverse project. Meta is outspending everyone and being penalized. But this time not for the Metaverse. This time it's for AI, which is much more real than the, than the Metaverse ever will be. But the big, the uh, Apple hasn't reported yet. They may be spared the rod, but um, all the other guys are spending uh, way more money on AI than Perhaps is um, prudent. They are in a mad rush to beat each other and therefore are. These are wildly profitable companies

Speaker C: that, you

Speaker A: know, make between 25 and $50 billion, um, a quarter. Uh, and many of them are now losing 25 to $50 billion a quarter. Uh, so you can see even though these are cash rich companies who take in billions of dollars a month, uh, you can see how investors are, uh, they want their money. It's just ironic that Meta, I guess Meta was punished really bad at the end of the Metaverse, but all through their investment, really, Even starting in 20, 22, 23, 24, they were still spending $25 billion a quarter on the Metaverse. And they were never punished like they're being punished here. So I think it's sort of, uh, everybody's getting spanked. Uh, we'll see what happens to Apple on Monday. Uh, but I've got a feeling they'll find a way to spank Apple too because uh, this is a pretty overheated market in a very mediocre economy in my opinion. Although the GDP news was much better than expected, considering.

Speaker B: Yeah, maybe. I mean Apple, you know, is pretty judicious about their spends around AI right now compared to everybody else. They are essentially taking advantage of everyone else's spend profile, including Google's. And they're just like, let's just partner with Google. They've already spent all the money, let's just take advantage of it.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: You know, with Safari they learned that page out of that book. Um, so you know, Apple sits over $5 trillion in valuation right now. The duo seems to be a hit even with the small number of them that apparently are cracking. When you open them,

Speaker A: the fold cracks. Which is actually unsurprising that that's a fold law because it seems like the most vulnerable part of the new system that they've developed. Um, that being said, it does sound like a relatively small amount. And I mean, sorry to all the people who have to spend a week screwing around with Apple and all this, which must be very, very painful. Um, but uh, it's not surprising. I mean this is a very, very complicated thing to do, which is why Apple took, you know, whatever it is, five years to get around to making one.

Speaker B: I don't know, if you ask Samsung, they seem to have figured it out. You know, they have basically the same form factor in their new foldy phone and I don't know, maybe they've got some ones that crack too,

Speaker A: but

Speaker B: they haven't been making theirs work.

Speaker A: That's A good point. And, uh, Samsung has been at this probably now about five years, so they really have a substantial lead and obviously a lot of time to consider, uh, the weak points.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm still waiting to get my duo. It'll be here in the next week or so. So I don't know if it's that much thinner than the Samsung phone. Uh, you, uh, know, maybe it is, but I don't think so. And like

Speaker A: the Samsung foldable, by the way, hats off to Samsung. That thing has always been a cool thing and I've always kind of been pining for one. Just, uh, waiting for Apple. And now, uh, and now I have to wait to see how yours works out. So let's keep going. We've got another five minutes to do the rest of the news. Kathy Hochul in New York has signed a bill, which I guess a number of states are also considering, that makes it illegal for minors to be engaged by a chatbot. Now, what they mean by engaged is a chatbot pretending to be humor human. A chatbot giving an individual health advice or psychological advice, um, a. Any kind of, um, AI forming a, an attachment or who is being anthropomorphized is. Every violation is up to a $25,000 fine. So you could see in New York if the language model was not properly controlled, how that could be, you know. Oh, by the way, it's not just $25,000 per valuation for violation, for repeated violations, you can be shut down.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, and I imagine California will adopt a similar law. I mean, this has not been in the news a lot this week, which is a bit surprising to me. I think it's, um, the, uh, AI news, uh, other AI news has crowded this out. But mark my words, this is going to be very, very impactful and is not going to go away in the news.

Speaker B: It's interesting because it feels a little like New York is taking a page out of the eu. Right. The EU has been much more aggressive around trying to maintain some safety standards, especially around minors. And Kathy Hochul and, you know, her brethren and sister are saying, you know what, we need to be a little more aware that this is really pretty dangerous stuff for kids and we, um, can't just let them run without any kind of restrictions. So it's interesting.

Speaker A: I think it's going to be very impactful. Yeah. Um, and also, how do they identify a minor? That, of course it's always a problem.

Speaker B: Yeah. And how do

Speaker A: they identify that?

Speaker B: It's really a chatbot. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Right, yeah, exactly. So, uh, going through the rest of the news here. Well, of course, xreal is delivering the Aura this week, uh, for a low price,

Speaker B: for, uh, a price lower than the metup device. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah. It's $1,100.

Speaker B: Yeah. Not

Speaker A: bad. So I got one. Mine's on the way. I am really, I have to tell you, I haven't been this excited about getting a, uh, demo unit in a long time. So what do you think you're going to use it

Speaker B: for? What are like the top things? Are you going to use it as a smartphone replacement at this point? Like a wearable smartphone replacement? Do the apps and the app infrastructure do that?

Speaker A: I've told you and Rony 100 times, I believe the successor to the smartphone is the smartphone. And in fact we just talked about you buying one. So whatever wearable you've got, you are not getting rid of your smartphone. I do not believe that. Uh, and of course if Brody was here, he would say, charlie, you're right until you're wrong. So, uh, that's, I'm going to stick with that one for a while. I do think it could be, uh, extraordinary in a lot of other ways. You know, I'm a fan of video display glasses. Uh, I think they're a lot of fun. I don't use them as much as I probably should given how much I profess to like them. Um, but Aura, uh, the demo I got at uh, AWE in June, um, suggests there are a lot of things to do with these glasses, even just going for a walk in your neighborhood. So to me that's kind of the neat thing to me to go for my dog walk, you know, watch videos, um, be able to, you know, take in the world with a spatial companion. I think that could, you know, I mean, we've been waiting for that for 10 years. So, you know, assuming it's not just a stupid gimmicky game thing, which is what we've seen in the past, uh, from these kinds of attempts. Hopefully it'll be something that really you would wear, uh, without thinking about it. So let's see, let's see. I mean I bit of glasses where most of my life it's, you know, sounds like a, ah, real big step in the right direction. We've been working with X Rail for almost ten years. Um, you know, these guys have probably know more about this than just about anybody else at this point. Um, sure. You know, included, including Apple. So if somebody's going to have a shot with this, I think it's Them, uh, you know, first versions are dicey. You know, I don't think we, you know, I think a lot is going to get put on this because they made a lot out of it, as has Google. Um, so I'm keeping an open mind, I'm rooting for them. It would be a big turning point in this vertical for that to happen, for this thing to catch on. For them to sell a million or two units before Christmas would be. I don't think they have the inventory, but if they sell a billion or two units in six months, it would be epic.

Speaker B: Yeah, that'll be interesting to see.

Speaker A: You know, big fingers crossed on that one. So, um, Genie four has come out from Google DeepMind. Uh, we were talking about Atlas from World Labs last week. Um, this is a world model that lets you navigate through a, ah, 3D world which is being generated as you use it. Um, you navigate it using your WASD keys so you can move through the world as if you're in a real 3D video game. Uh, they built it primarily for robotics, I think, uh, so that robots can get a continuous and evolving spatial understanding of the world. Because it's not enough to have a spatial understanding of an empty room. You have to have an understanding of what's happening in the room. Where is the furniture? Has it been moved? Is there a person? So this is the big problem I think they're trying to solve, but it has a lot of other benefits. It could benefit certainly, people making games, prototyping games. It could certainly help with aspects of AI, video production, uh, giving filmmakers a little bit more control of the world. So, you know, it's an exciting development. And I think these world models, uh, are going to get more and more, uh, attention and better and better over the coming year. And, uh, I think that is again, precisely what you would expect to have happen in a world that is about to be invaded by robots as, as they, as China has been.

Speaker B: Yeah. I have, uh, I have a curiosity. I'm curious for you to weigh in on this, Charlie. Do you think just overall, I mean, these things are remarkable advancements in technological sort of prowess. Right. Um, it just doesn't seem like the really extraordinary refined content is moving as fast as the technology is moving. So I'm continually waiting, like, I'm still obviously waiting for the first project that has fully leaned into AI that sort of becomes something that critics go, this is remarkable. Like, the content is remarkable. And I'm waiting for the game worlds that become GTA level. Right. Or, or battlefield level or uh,

Speaker A: and can you imagine if those games were procedural in so much as they respond to you as an individual and remember you as an individual? That could. And imagine if that game was part of your wearable that you wore all day so you could be between meetings and the avatars show up wanting to interact with you. So it could be a completely new experience that no one has ever done before. So I love those kinds of things and I think we are um, getting close to seeing some of them, at least in the prototype form. And you know, imagine like GD4 combined with the wearable, like the Xreal could uh, be really an extraordinary experience

Speaker B: thing we've always dreamed of. Right. That is coming to fruition. So we'll

Speaker A: see the full integration of the digital and physical worlds. Um, one quick one before we bring Roy in. And a very relevant one, I may add. Remember our friend Cecilia Shen from UTOP AI?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: She pivoted from having a AI video company that was going to compete with Runway, uh, and Higsfield and everybody else. And they pivoted to ah, production and in fact they have a feature film featuring Antonio Banderas based on Cortez. Uh, and this is one of the great unproduced screenplays floating around Hollywood for 30 years because Cortez would have cost, I don't know, half a billion dollars and who knows who would go see it. Uh, but now they've got a way to make it for considerably less net, uh, the cost of Antonio Banderas. Of course. Um, he's absolutely the right person to get into this, especially doing just voiceover. Um, so I'm excited. I hope it turns out well, I am, full disclosure, a utope AI creative partner. So I'm not going to be super, uh, critical of what they're doing, but what they're doing is a really, really big challenge where they're trying to create. And they were the first, everybody is doing it now. Uh, but they were the first to create an agentic system for AI video production. So you're not writing prompts, it's writing prompts for you based on natural language. And using natural language you can refine the scenes as you go forward. So, uh, like I said, it's being used for some big productions. Um, I think it's being used for this, um, AI Instagram feed. Something like Chloe through history. We have a girl doing a selfie as she walks, walks through ancient Rome and is talking about the experience of being there. So you know, I love time travel. It's a terrific, terrific social media feed. Uh, I don't know, it was doing extremely well for a while and I saw Chloe all the time. Uh, so hopefully they're still doing that. But that was a great example of somebody who's using Utopia very, very, uh, you know, very, very well and it looks like profitably. So, um, go Utopai. And I hope, uh, I, I'm hoping and trying to contribute in a small way to their success. They raised 60 billion at a $1 billion valuation without really releasing anything except for some social media videos. So pretty incredible. And if the Cortez movie is any good, they could be worth a lot more than a billion dollars.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. $60 million is not nothing. I mean it's the uh, it's the cost of a major motion.

Speaker A: Well, this is, this is, this is on top. This, uh, you know, the money they've raised previously, I think we were talking two or three months ago about $150 million valuation. So these guys are really raising money. I think it goes to show you Silicon Valley has got its eyes on Hollywood now.

Speaker B: Well, we'll see, we'll see if one of those things becomes that thing that becomes the new iconic piece of content that people talk about for generations, like the Godfather, like Shawshank Redemption, like, uh, the Shining, like, you know, where I'm still waiting. I'm waiting for that moment where the technology moves into the background and the story and the artistry moves into the foreground. Uh,

Speaker A: the person watching this, if you're not in the business of film, uh, entertainment or um, generative video technology, uh, anybody else looking at it should just be looking at it to. Because it's a good story, because it caught their eye. Um, the same reason we watch anything. And so my, my feeling is that people are not going to care if it's good enough. And I think part of the reason that people do care right now is that it's not good enough.

Speaker B: Not good enough. Right. Right

Speaker A: when. Right. People don't like Uncanny Valley. They feel like people are, somebody's trying to fool them. And that obviously is not a thought. You can have the audience that you can have with an audience during, uh, during a film or any kind of a show if they're thinking about something other than the story and what's going to happen next, you have failed your job as a filmmaker. So, uh, but, uh, the AI again is not good enough yet. I have not seen AI projected. I know others have, but I have not personally seen AI projected on a 50 foot screen and not been able to tell that it was AI.

Speaker B: Well, you

Speaker A: have.

Speaker B: You've just not seen it, um, as an end to end product. You've seen.

Speaker A: Correct, correct.

Speaker B: You've seen a lot of work that's

Speaker A: done

Speaker B: hidden in the background, uh, instead of traditional cgi.

Speaker A: Yes, I'm talking about. I'm talking about a film that is, you know, largely A.I. uh, maybe A.I. with some human actors, but is largely. Well, what's. Let's bring Roy in. This is actually a good topic for Roy. Roy Price. Great to see you. Welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us this morning. Hey, Charlie, how are you this morning? I'm doing great. A pleasure to introduce you to my co host, Ted Shilitz. Um, greetings. I guess you guys don't know each other. Ted. Ted was in charge of future technologies at Paramount when they had a future, and, uh, did a similar role at 20th Century Fox prior to their merger with Disney. So, um, you know, Ted is the guy. When your studio has a future, you want his eye on it. When your studio does not have a future, you give him a big bag of money and send him away. So, uh, Ted knows a lot about a lot. Uh, he's running around the country, uh, this week, uh, to a bunch of board meetings, and he's, uh, consulting with a lot of different, uh, media programs around the country. So, uh, he is the perfect co host for this show because, like Rony Abovitz, who is absent without, uh, excuse, which as a college student.

Speaker B: Yeah,

Speaker A: bad, bad, bad, Rony. Um, but, uh, it's great to have you on the show. We were talking to Angela Yu of Stowreel, which is a Chinese vertical streamer moving into the US Last week. It was a fascinating conversation and I thought it was a great compliment to having you because she, like you. And I want to talk about obviously your experiences with Amazon, but, uh, also about your ambitions for vertical streaming and your attitude toward it. She is moving her operation to the U.S. and again, like a lot of the vertical streamers in this category, they're kind of differentiating into a vertical. You know, their vertical is more, uh, lgbtq. Um, and they've got a lot of vertical content like that. Uh, I think it will certainly be attractive to, uh, a certain demographic. Their videos, I thought, are actually good, um, for. For what they are. So, uh, I think, um, I thought it was interesting because Your vertical streamer, number one, best web website, N1BW, uh, is also going to try and differentiate itself vertically and not go after the traditional audience that is currently consuming micro dramas at scale.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, why don't you give us a little background, um, on your sort of arc with Amazon, what you did within the traditional production realm and where you are today. Give the listeners kind of a little bit of a lesson on you. Um, before we get to today. We don't want to jump into today before we know where you came from.

Speaker D: Right? Well, uh, yeah, I guess I started at, um, Disney Animation, uh, so Disney TV Animation and developed a lot of shows like Recess and, uh, Kim Possible and stuff like that. So that was, that was a great time. But, uh, I started to get obsessed with how television was going to change more broadly. And, um, you know, because, like, TiVo had come out and it was a big change and I, uh, was kind of proselytizing that around Disney. But I realized that in figuring all this stuff out, they weren't going to go to, uh, the team at TV animation. So, um, anyway, I left. I went to McKinsey. Uh, wait,

Speaker A: wait, wait. Let me reminisce for a quick second about Disney Animation. Was it Gary Kreisel who used to be in charge of Disney Television animation? And then somehow it got put under Demon Valentine. This is back in the 90s, am I remembering that correctly, about Disney Television?

Speaker D: So Gary was before me. I've heard his name, but, um, he was before me. And, uh, they had syndication, like DuckTales, uh, that did really well Monday through Friday. And, uh, but he was gone. And then we bought abc and it was kind of about programming. Abc, uh, as well as the Disney Channel and Time. Uh, but so we would look at the ratings for like, Fox, abc. So it was kind of the end of broadcast. Um, but yeah, so I went to McKinsey, uh, for a while and then, um, uh, Amazon wanted to get into digital video. And, um, so I threw my hat in the ring. I didn't know anyone at Amazon. I just uploaded my resume and, um, that worked out. And then I showed up. So I was like the lead product, uh, person on digital video. And I kind of assumed that there would have been some kind of big document or PowerPoint explaining, like, what our strategy is in digital video. But there was not at all. Like, there was one that is not

Speaker B: the Amazon way. Yeah, yeah,

Speaker D: yeah. There was one email from Jeff saying, like, we should probably get into digital video. That, uh, is the

Speaker B: Amazon way. Yes.

Speaker D: Yeah. So I had to, uh, you know, come up with the plan and figure out what could work for customers, uh, balancing, you know, what you can do technically, what license or willing to license and what customers might find interesting and, um, that eventually worked out. And then I made a big argument for you know, we had to get into original content. And in fact everyone in the business was going to get into original content sort of inevitably. And that was more controversial. There were definitely people who argued against that as being risky. But you know, I said look, it's uh, it could not work. But you know, whoever wins this is going to definitely have original content on their side so you can't just not do it. Um, and that all turned out to be true. Everybody went into original content. And uh, so anyway, we started Amazon Studios, I went over there and then I was head of Amazon Studios and all global content for prime, ah, video. Um, and yeah, so that was it. So Amazon was like 13 years and Disney was uh, like five.

Speaker B: So let me ask you this because you have a very unique perspective on this that a lot of us that live within the media sphere in various ways postulate, but because you were in the belly of the beast, you would know this. A lot of us talk about how the large tech companies with multi trillion dollar valuation can start a quote unquote video business that never has to be a business that is all about keeping people within their walled gardens and creating sort of a loss leader philosophy around an offering that allows people to touch content, different kinds of content, different styles of content. But an Apple, an Amazon, a Google, um, never really has to make money making content where a traditional studio, Paramount and HBO Disney has to. Uh, so the tech companies had sort of an unfair advantage and they would end up sort of working with the experts which were those studios, to make their content for them. So you probably have a unique perch to comment on that, which a lot of people don't. Right. We make assumptions about that. But you would sort of know that from the inside.

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean the video program at Amazon or Apple, let's say, um, does have to create value. Uh, but the

Speaker B: value could be a broader spectrum than a traditional studio saying a bottom line as big part of their value. Like they have to see a return on.

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean internally you do have a bottom line but in your P L you are getting credit for attracting customers to Prime.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker D: Uh, so you know there, there you're in a larger ecosystem and you're, you're uh, supporting that ecosystem effectively. And

Speaker A: honestly I think prime is an important, prime video is an important part of the bundle that makes people feel so comfortable, um, paying the extra hundred bucks a year. Not only are you getting free shipping, but you have access to a vast library comparable to what Google Offers for free. Uh, because Google Video, Google Movies, uh, is loaded with great free content. When people talk about why is Google is YouTube responsible for vacuuming up so many hours of television? That's, that's the reason. So I think it made total sense for Amazon. I think it still makes sense for them. And, and there is a certain measurability in how much it is helping Prime. And at the same time, uh, under you certainly Amazon created some of the most important television properties of this century.

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean it was a good uh, run in the early goings, uh, with, you know, we had to establish that Amazon was an interesting place that you should consider when you're thinking about entertainment and watching TV and stuff. And that's not necessarily intuitive for customers who uh, traditionally had. Had just known us as like a store. And uh, so it would be like if Ross Dress for Less started, you know, a television network, you know, and it's like what is going on? And so there was a feeling that we had to have some high quality stuff. Uh, so um, we did Transparent, uh, which won the Globe for best half hour. And then uh, Mozart in the Jungle won the Globe for Best half Hour. And um, uh, marvelous Mrs. Maisel and fleabag won both the Globe and the Emmy for best Comedy. And we won a ton. Like I think we won the Emmy for best comedy Director in television like four years out of five.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker D: Uh, so we had a good run and then we did the Boys and uh, uh, the man in the High Castle and some others. Bosch, uh, over in Drama to sort of uh, you know, broaden out the appeal. So once you've established that you're putting out quality content, you uh, can sort of broaden it somewhat. And so that, that was basically the strategy. That's what happened. And it worked. And um, uh, so that all went well. You know, I mean, yes, I guess original content can be a risk but in this case uh, it fulfilled all of the uh, objectives and we.

Speaker B: Well and I think, I think to your point, a lot of those shows uh, were critically acclaimed and risk taking in ways that more traditional networks would probably not take those risks. The Boys is certainly very risky in terms of the level of violence, how it creates violence in cartoons, sort of comic book genre stuff that Marvel would never ever, ever think about doing. The stuff that the Voice does, it's so grisly in some of it and it's fantastic.

Speaker D: We

Speaker B: love that stuff. Um, and Mazel in a whole nother, uh, vein.

Speaker A: Well, I mean that is not a TV budget or A TV cast that we were looking at.

Speaker B: Right. But you know, the idea that an Amazon has the ability to take those risks because they don't immediately need to see this as this thing better make this much or else it's a no go. We've got other ways to make money. I would

Speaker D: argue that, um, like regardless of how the economics are set up at the company, it was necessary, ah, no matter who you were. You know, even if we were doing it and we had raised a billion dollars or whatever, it was just the correct strategy because, um, the worst possible outcome would be that you become kind of like CBS but not quite as good.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker D: You know, so you try to do things that are going to be popular, but you're not necessarily first in line. You know, you're Amazon. You're not these other people who've been in the TV business 40 years and they know all the agents or whatever. Um, so you kind of have to spend this minute dealing, uh, with your brand and getting your brand stood up in a strong way where it really has that quality association. And only then can you go broader. And definitely, I used to say if you're not a little afraid when you greenlight something, uh, maybe you shouldn't be green lighting it at all because maybe it's just very average and passe because you and all your friends and your mom and you know, everybody just thinks this is the best idea for a TV show. That probably means it was a good idea for a TV show like three years ago.

Speaker B: Yeah, I would say that's largely my thesis as well. And I agree with that. I would say that HBO kind of had that comfy seat for a very, very long time, for generations. And I would say that Apple has sort of, interestingly enough, taken over a lot of that seat. Not all of it. HBO still has an occasional standout like the Pit or, um, Last of Us or something like that. But it's not like every single show at HBO is a knock it out of the park. Oh my God, this is really pedigree content. And Apple has largely, really taken that, uh, sort of spot on the shelf as the best sort of pedigree content. Um, and Amazon is always interesting to me because it was a little bit like they took different kind of risks than Apple and HBO and it worked. And I was impressed by that.

Speaker D: Well, you know, very, yeah, very few large retailers in 2013 would say, okay, well, you know, our first really high profile show is going to be about this, you know, UCLA professor who goes trans.

Speaker B: Right,

Speaker D: exactly. Which by the way in 2013, like wasn't even a thing. And um, you know, by the way,

Speaker A: another, another great cast. That was

Speaker D: a

Speaker A: movie quality cast.

Speaker D: It

Speaker B: really

Speaker D: was. And you know. Yeah. Uh, Jeffrey Tambor. And so

Speaker A: what a

Speaker D: role. Yeah. And everyone. And yeah, that, that's one of my favorite seasons. The first season of Transparent. I thought it was gold.

Speaker B: I agree.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, so original.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay, so

Speaker D: you know, let's follow up on that with, let's do a series about like what if the Nazis took over half of the U.S.

Speaker B: right? And

Speaker D: then let's do a series about these like hyper violent superheroes. You know, it all worked. And in general when people get apprehensive, they're usually over sensitive. Like, you know, people can take it, you know, they can watch a show where the Nazis took over half of America and you know, and you get rewarded if it's the right choice, even if it's a little bit of a bold choice. So

Speaker B: I agree.

Speaker D: And then we had the same strategy in movies, so we were doing like Manchester by the Sea, we got a bunch of Oscars. And I think Apple has the same strategy. Uh, after I left Amazon though, they went for a real broadcast strategy and I think left like billions of dollars on the table because in the ensuing eight or nine years there were basically zero shows that came out that anyone talks about today.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker D: Too bad.

Speaker B: Okay, so now let's jump forward, right, Charlie? So now we just talked about the past, even though it's the near past with what streaming used to look like. And now you're taking sort of another bold move into the future, leaning into vertical dramas, next gen technology. What is the reason? What's your thesis? What are you going to bring from what you've learned from your success at Amazon into this sort of new brave new world that is still a bit unknown, although apparently generating a good amount of money, uh, in terms of an overall business profile.

Speaker D: Yeah, well, you know, for me, um, the number one best website, n1BW.com is not primarily about AI. It happens to use AI often. Uh, but there's no rule that it has to be AI the uh, good thing about AI is that it is inexpensive enough that there are no necessarily, uh, bureaucratic controls over what people can do. And you know, I think the biggest problem with Hollywood over the past eight years is that uh, it has been sort, uh, of cornered into this kind of group think bland wagon as I call it, uh, where everything became much more boring. You couldn't have any comedy uh, everything had to be true crime, which is like the low IQ hamburger helper of television. And uh, it was just literally the worst period of television in history since the beginning of television. Um, and so where that leaves us is there is a lot of demand in the universe for things that aren't being made. And so the opportunity of AI is not like the technology in itself. It's that if you can get budgets to be low enough, then you can have freedom. You don't have to, uh, have a board of directors and, you know, some bankers that you're reporting to. Uh, you don't have to conform to everything. So, you know, we can do uh, comedies. You know. The other day there was a trailer put, uh, on the site called Chainmail Bikini of the Damned, uh, which I just think had a sort of unbridled sense of like, you know, we're doing some Golan Globus or Roger Corman. I do think AI is the next Roger Corman, you know, where, you know, you're going to do a lot of things that are just meant to be fun. It's not meant to be boring. And I think a lot of stuff on TV now is kind of meant to be boring. And um, you know, it all looks the same. It's all one show, which is the show. You just go to your TV and you turn on the show and it's going to be, you know, some, somebody solving a mystery. And it's incredibly. You've seen it a hundred times. Um, really there needs to be like a creative revolution happening. And that can only come from freedom. And the freedom can only come from low costs. You know, if everything costs 40 million, it's going to be a different dynamic. So at number one best website we can make stuff. But mainly it's where people upload what they've made. And um, they can also, uh, just suggest a premise in a program that we have called Autopilot. And you can just go to the web and type it in. You can say, I want a Western, but it has to have some dinosaurs or you can be more elaborate. And every day we pick one and we uh, the autonomously, uh, produces, you know, I don't sit here and work on it. Like the computer produces a 90 second promo for the show.

Speaker B: Wow, interesting.

Speaker D: Yeah. And like, we've only done two, but I think that program is going really, really well. So, you know, the only remaining thing that like, has to be implemented is that if you're going to do like, the freedom is great. Um, but if you're Going to do, let's say 30 episodes, two minutes long. So that's an hour of content. Uh, option one is you can sit down and do it yourself. You know, crank up mid journey and see dance and sit there for the next 40 days. Uh, but option two, and I think this has to become more prevalent, is you can, uh, you know, circulate the premise and your designs and a trailer, maybe the first couple of episodes to the community,

Speaker B: right?

Speaker D: And say, look, this is the show and I need people to direct episodes. You know, I've, I've directed the first five, so we need 25, so throw your hat in the ring. Uh, I've done the scripts, here are the scripts or whatever. And the number one best website, if you do that, uh, you know, and this is all in the sort of backstage area, but if you do that coordination, you sign up for roles on, on the shows, uh, number one best website will automatically like split up the money. So the thing you don't have to do is negotiate with 40 people, make 40 individual deals with contracts and blah blah, blah, because that would prohibit the whole thing because the transaction costs would simply be too high. So, so now it's, it's much easier to collaborate. Some people like to collaborate. They don't like to collaborate. They're just, you know, solo, they want to do a solo album. But, uh, you know, if you get past a certain point in terms of volume, I think it's good to find somebody else who kind of gets it and can also do. You know, it looks like the same show. I mean, to be honest, this is how real television works. You know, David E. Kelly doesn't come down and like direct every single episode. Oh, he's got

Speaker B: a lot of collaboratives, of course. Yeah, of

Speaker D: course.

Speaker B: Well, it's interesting. You've touched on a whole bunch of interesting topics that I would love to do a little tiny, little bit of analysis on. Um, the first one is, you know, you talk about lowering costs, right? And it somehow seems that everybody that talks today about AI technology thinks this is some new phenomenon. But this is multi generational. The idea of creativity coming from bringing costs down to a reasonable level to take creative risks has been happening for a very long time. I'll call back all the way to the 1960s and 1970s when we started to see 16 millimeter film stocks be used as a low cost alternative to make independent films. You mentioned Roger Corman. The idea is that you can and faster film stock so you could use less light and you could go shoot on location. And you could do things. And then came the digital revolution, where film stock sort of moved into the corner. Not all the way into the corner, but started moving to the corner. And you got low cost digital cameras that were initially low quality, but then became extraordinarily high quality and became a new professional medium, bringing costs down. Then you started to get to the VFX and computer revolution where computers took over all forms of our industry in terms of editorial, creative, content, so forth and so on, constantly bringing costs lower and lower and lower so creators could take interesting risks. Then 25 years ago comes this little tiny thing called YouTube that turns the whole thing on its head. And now to your point about collaborating as a worldwide experiment where people can try new things in different ways and attempt experimental content that if it catches on, they can take it in different directions, they can bring in bigger teams. You know, Mr. Beast is a perfect example of this one kid sitting in his basement doing, you know, gaming commentary content. And now he's got a, you know, and he did a giant show for Amazon. Like he's got a gigantic infrastructure and gigantic studio. Now of course he's an outlier, but it proves the point that generation after generation after generation, we have interesting creative tools. Now here we sit on the next cusp of this, that you're playing a part in with your website in a way to do content in this interesting collaborative way. When we talked last week to the young lady running so real, she was talking about content that is what they claim is high quality Deliverables for under $300 per finished minute, which is a shockingly low cost for someone like you. And look at what does it cost to budget a maisel or a budget of boys episode. But if you could do that for 95% less of the budget and still gain an audience, you've got all these interesting choices. So you're playing in an interesting field right now. I guess the, the question after sort of stating all that is just like what YouTube did is create lots of opportunity, but also created an enormous amount of competition. So cutting through the noise, how are you getting an audience? How are you finding a sustained audience? What kind of tricks of the trade? You know, I don't know what you want to give away that other people alert from, but what kind of tricks of the trade are you finding to cut through the, um, just the sheer amount of material that's being made today because costs are so much lower.

Speaker D: Well, we just launched but uh, I think the point of differentiation for a lot of these sites will be the personality of the site, uh, so you will get somewhat different, uh, you know, drama box and reel shorts, do the whole I married my billionaire uncle, whatever. Um, and you know that has a very specific audience, uh, which is basically women. Uh, over a certain age I think we would go the opposite direction. Uh, you know like TV has heavily skewed uh, you know, toward women over the past eight years and guys have been kind of kicked out and sent to YouTube or the NFL. And you know I, I think, or you know, they still watch standup, they like comedy. But uh, I, I think we want to take that zone as our primary point of creative distinction. Uh, even though it's a free upload site, if you want to upload your series about how you married a billionaire, uh, you can do that. You know, so we don't have absolute, it's not top down control, it's the opposite. But I still think uh, you know, we'll wind up with that uh, point of view. And then um, you know, ours is not a top down system, it's a bottom up system which is not true of most of these. So that is different. And we have the collaborative uh, platform which I think is essential, uh, if this is really going to happen. And um, you know, if you think about it, I do think the segment is important because if you're an AI filmmaker, um, you know, what is the business model? Like, where are you going to make the money? Because like, you know, YouTube is great for Mr. Beast, but I don't think it's like an amazing business model for most people.

Speaker B: Oh, it's an amazing business model for YouTube, for Google,

Speaker D: but it is

Speaker B: not an amazing business model for creators. But entertainment has always been an outlier business. Right. Uh, it's not a everybody wins business. It's uh, almost everybody loses and a tiny little sector wins and becomes ultra successful and ultra wealthy accordingly. But we're seeing a little bit of a breakdown of that now. We're starting to get a little flatter system where lots of things, I guess it's interesting that you talk about that. So then maybe how it reflects to your company, um, as a startup just coming out of and entering into the market, um, you raised capital for this. It's a VC funded entity or a self

Speaker D: funded entity. It's just I raised capital for myself,

Speaker B: so it's self funded. Interesting.

Speaker D: But at some point you know, we'll presumably call the VCs, they'll call us. But, but um, yeah, I think like so few people make more than like $2,000 a month on YouTube.

Speaker B: Correct. And

Speaker D: they're selling on TikTok. And like some people, they'll just, they'll put stuff out on Instagram or what have you. And the point is not to make money. The point is that then somebody's going to call them and ask them to make an ad or something. So it's, they're just kind of promoting their brand with content. But I think that if you do the token model where people are spending tokens to watch episodes or they can subscribe, I think those business models will actually work. Uh, and again, not everybody's going to get rich, but I think you get into a scenario where people who are doing good work can actually make money from it and that's the right business model for that. And that business model basically doesn't exist, certainly not in a format where you can freely upload and it's open to whatever crazy idea you have.

Speaker B: So this

Speaker D: is

Speaker B: a grand experiment for you, Roy. You're basically taking a shot. You're putting your own money where your mouth is. You believe in this model, you believe that the technology will create wonderfully risk taking and interesting content like you did in your days at Amazon. And we're all going to get to watch this experiment play out in real time, which is pretty exciting.

Speaker D: Yeah, you know I, and the reason I feel confident about that is that I, I know there are certain kinds of content that are just not being served. And so it's uh, so there's a big gap in the market. There's real demand and there are people who are quite capable of serving it. And you know, if, if people took over your town and made every restaurant vegan, all you have to do is open a steakhouse and you're in great shape. So you know, that's the concept.

Speaker B: You've just defined California as a state right there.

Speaker D: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: So Roy, part of your strategy has been to um, make Ah, make N1BW a home for some of the top AR AI creators.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so what, what is the strategy there? Why would they put their content on NBC N1BW? Is it non exclusive? Are they putting it everywhere? Because a lot of these people, you know, feed a giant YouTube site of their own. Um, so, so I'm curious about who you recruited and how you chose them and, and what you think their, their role is going to be going forward.

Speaker D: Yeah, well the next step, I mean obviously if you have a content site, the first thing you need is content. Uh, and ideally it's good content. So, so the next Step, uh, the next announcement, which is not, you know, quite finished by, I think we'll be done like the end of next week is um, we'll announce a sort of founding filmmaker program where these filmmakers uh, are, you know, signed up to the site and they become part owners. Because if the, if, if the people who are going to create the value or at least partly or to a large extent, uh, these filmmakers artists, then they should own part of the company. So um, I think each filmmaker in the program will get like 1% of the company. So if we have like 15, that'll be 15% plus, uh, over the next 18 months we'll distribute like 20% of the shares uh, to people according to pro rata, according to how many views they drove.

Speaker B: That's really

Speaker D: interesting.

Speaker B: So this is a bit like the United artist model of 100 something years ago where the goal was not the fat cats, but let the actors and let the creators and let the directors have a stake, have an ownership stake in this studio. So you're following a little bit in those footsteps. That's really fascinating. It's interesting that everybody will.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you're going to have to cultivate and pick the ones that you think are going to be the ones that will have a good roi, that make the good shows and are worth their percentage or worth what you gave them, which is fascinating. That's interesting.

Speaker D: Yes. So that's been a big endeavor over the last month, I would say to make the list and get in touch with everyone and uh, I think it's going to be interesting. But the situation is either we all do this together or you know, option A, if no site is created like this, then you know, everybody keeps going to YouTube and uh, is really limited upside. You know, there, there's limited uh, upside from individual episodes and movies, but there's also no equity upside for anyone because you don't own YouTube. Right. The other thing we could do is we could each individually create a website and like content on our own site and so on. And that's never going to scale or be interesting or work. So that is also a bad plan. So the third plan is the only good plan. Do not go through doors one or two, go through door number three where we all do this together and we're all co owners in this one thing. And then it has a, you know, critical mass of the highest quality, you know, AI content that is kind of in this zone. You know, everything has to be uh, cool and interesting. Um, you know, the people are not necessarily the top 15 people by, you know, X followers or YouTube views or, you know, anything like that. It's there, there are definitely names that you would know, but, but there are also people who are just talented and haven't broken out yet. And maybe they have, uh, 200 followers.

Speaker B: Right? Well, I think you've just defined your, your, your value potion, right, is the big guys that have already got massive YouTube followings that are already making money in whatever chosen platform they are, are probably not your target. You're essentially becoming like a talent scout of the future. You're going to find the ones that you believe have this future promise that have no presence and maybe just have a few followers. But, man, and they made something

Speaker A: great. There's another, another cut at this. This. Because we are entering a new age in media, uh, of abundance, right? And, and when the three of us were coming up, if you wanted to make something commercially viable, you needed hundreds of thousands, if not capitals dollars. So, you know, it, it created an artificial barrier to even the most talented people, right? To even the most talented people. You had to have a record of making TV commercials or short films or something to convince Roy to give you the money. Right. Series. And that age is over. For example, I was at a big tech company a few months ago and I was talking. They, you know, they've been supporting a bunch of, uh, AI creators. And I was making a pitch for myself and, and my series and they're like, well, great. I mean, bring us the Bible and the scripts and some animation samples stuff. And they gave me this loan script list and I said, you know what? I'm just going to go make the series and then I'm going to send it to you. And you're going to give me a yes or a no because I actually really don't want your input. I don't need your credits. I've got, I'm a creative partner to four different, uh, AI companies. So, um, you know, the, the thing you have to offer me is a way of cutting through the noisy, noisy abundance. And, and also, in fairness, not everything is slop. There's abundance of good content too. So, you know, also a point about AI slop. One man slop is another man's Citizen Kane. So if you don't like it, scroll past it. It's, it's not a big deal.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but, but it does make discoverability even of content from people like Kavan Cardoza or, you know, Gossip Goblin. Discovery Ability is an issue, right, that you didn't really have at Amazon, uh, because you had so many people to start with so that the buzz could jump out of your lane very quickly. Those were very visible shows with big stars in them. Um, but AI creators don't have that. They don't have a place to start. Um, and I think that's what's smart about your approach, is give them a place to start and to start to build momentum and to find an audience in a place that is, um, going to elevate their work. Whereas if you get on to one of these other streamers, as I have, you're at their, at their mercy. Whether they promote your work, whether, uh, you are discoverable inside of a line list that has dozens of similar shows. I mean, these are all big challenges for creators to find an audience. And anything that helps you cut through the, the noise and start to build a following is, is going to be welcome and helpful.

Speaker D: Yeah, you know, some of the, some of the people we're talking to, by the way, are at the top of the AI sphere. Uh, so it's not all under, but it's a real mix. Because the important thing is kind of the vibe. It's got to be a little bit like, you know, Motown. Like, not everybody is exactly the same, but it has vibe. And, and that's because. And so there are some people who are quite well known AI people. And like, I'm. I don't think it's a match for us, so we didn't go after them. Um, but, uh, you know, nobody gets up in the morning thinking, oh, you know, I want to watch a short video. So long as it's AI but it has to be AI. Like, no one thinks that, but they do think, oh, you know, I'm on the bus on the way home from school or my job, and, you know, I want this particular vibe, you know, and, uh, that is a thing that motivates customers. So it's a good goal for us. And, you know, I think it's a good business model for all these people. I mean, one thing I get a little concerned about is, um, I'm a big AI filmmaker. So now I'm going to go make my movie. I'm ready to make my, you know, feature film that is 100 minutes long. And I'm going to my

Speaker B: opus. Yeah,

Speaker D: yeah, Dennis Villeneuve. And that's where I ought to be competing, I would say, uh, you know, look, I've released many, many movies, and that doesn't mean, you know, everything I'd say always comes true. But I don't know, I think that's quite challenging. It's like saying, I'm a great high school hockey player. Tomorrow I'm going to join the Chicago Blackhawks.

Speaker B: Yeah. I'm going to win the Stanley cup in the next five minutes. Right.

Speaker D: And it's like, okay, now bear in mind, you don't have a star in your movie. You don't have a famous director. You don't have a famous writer. You don't have any ip. So, you know, most studios that have all kinds of resources and, you know, maybe they have, uh, IP or something, they still try to sign up a star. Is that because they're silly? It's not. It's because they don't want to get a big zero. They're trying to

Speaker B: better their odds every way they can. They're trying to use every.

Speaker A: Because discoverability is an issue

Speaker B: even at that

Speaker A: level. They have a lot of options.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. And so, really, I

Speaker B: have a curiosity. I'm gonna ask you a very specific question because you're talking about creators. We've

Speaker A: only got two minutes left, guys.

Speaker B: We're gonna. We're gonna wrap up in a second because we're going along today because this is a vaccinating discussion.

Speaker A: We started a little late, in fairness. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker B: All right. Are you familiar with a, uh, uh, an AI autor group out of Germany called the Door Brothers? D O R Brothers.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Everybody is.

Speaker B: So. Thoughts? Comments? The reason I think about it is their. Their. Their sort of arc is a little like the work that the boys do a little bit. Um, so I'm curious if you like them, if you would say that would be a good archetype fit for your. For your. Your project, for your work,

Speaker D: or

Speaker B: they. Are they already too big? Are they already too. Too exposed?

Speaker D: I don't think they're too big, but, um. Uh, yeah, I think they've done a lot of cool stuff. So, you know, I realize there's like a subjective. It's like what I think is cool, but, you know, it's inevitable. Uh, but also, you know, fortunately, a lot of other people agree, so they have a lot of followers and stuff. Uh, but, yeah, I think, you know, that could be a great candidate. Um, and I think one interesting thing will be a lot. A lot of people in doing their online videos, they write it themselves. And, you know, I just think we should be thinking this through because there are some very, very talented, uh, directors in the majors who could probably sit down and write their script, and they don't. And the reason is they realize they are an A plus student on directing, and they're a B plus student on writing. And B plus is pretty good, but it's not quite the pro level. And, um, I don't know. I think we have to think about division of labor going forward.

Speaker B: I agree. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, that's a really, really great point that. That people who are sole practitioners now shouldn't be. They should focus on what they're great at and find somebody who's great to handle some of the other parts of it, like screenwriting, which is so critical. This is all the time we have fellowship. Um, always a good conversation is one that makes us feel like the show is too short. Um, Roy, it's great to see you. Thanks for spending time with us this morning, everybody. The site is N1BW, the number one best website. Uh, so, uh, it's, um, it's online right now. I guess an app is coming soon,

Speaker D: soon, soon to be an app. It's literally what I'm working on today.

Speaker A: So. But meanwhile, uh, if you want to cruise over to the website, you'll start to see, uh, some of the programs and some of the ideas and some of the content that is going to be featured on that site. Uh, one last thing. Uh, we still have tickets to the Infinity Festival, uh, which is next week in Hollywood. It's for people who make films, people who make games, people in the special effects industry, and people who are making AI films. So it should be a really interesting mix of people this year. So if you want a ticket, hit me up. I'm all over the socials, and, uh, we'll hook you up with a complimentary ticket to, uh, the, um, the festival. Um, so that's it, everybody. That's our show. We'll see you back here next week. Thanks for listening. And again, Roy, a pleasure to catch up with you.

Speaker D: Thanks. Until next time.