Finding the Fire: Shannon Flanagan on Retail, Resilience and Career Purpose

1 - > Ben: Some careers look linear only after we edit out the messy 2 - > parts. 3 - > Shannon Flanagan has built the kind of career that reads 4 - > impressively on paper. 5 - > A career originally heading in another direction after college, 6 - > she found her way into retail where she moved through 7 - > merchandising and buying, worked in consulting, led strategic 8 - > initiatives and transformation work inside major retailers, 9 - > built go-to-market motions and technology companies, and now 10 - > leads retail women in tech, a global nonprofit movement 11 - > dedicated to driving parity and strengthening career mobility 12 - > across retail and technology. 13 - > She has held leadership roles with Gap Inc., Land's End, 14 - > Macy's Accenture, Slalom, Talk Desk, Writer, and Retail 15 - > Connected. 16 - > She is a Rethink Retail Top Expert, a Top 50 NRF retail 17 - > voice, a retail wire brain trust member, an advisor, speaker, 18 - > and soon-to-be published author of Choose, Don't Chase, Your 19 - > Career. 20 - > That is the resume. 21 - > But the more important part of Shannon's story is the why 22 - > behind it. 23 - > At twenty-five, while working through major organizational and 24 - > technology change, Shannon found the through line that 25 - > would shape the rest of her career, to create the conditions 26 - > for people to love what they do every day. 27 - > Not in a soft, abstract way, in a practical, deeply human way. 28 - > Because when people are fulfilled at work, that energy 29 - > does not stay inside a company. 30 - > It ripples into families, communities, and the broader 31 - > world. 32 - > That idea sits at the center of this conversation. 33 - > What follows is not a polished career highlight reel. 34 - > It is a real conversation about fit, fire, failure, layoffs, 35 - > comparison, purpose, boundaries, technology, opportunity, and 36 - > why the most important career decisions are often not about 37 - > chasing the next title, but choosing the work that allows us 38 - > to become more fully who we are. 39 - > Rich H.: Welcome back to another episode of Retail Relates. 40 - > Judy, I appreciate you joining us on a short notice today. 41 - > Judy S.: Of course, I'm always glad to join. 42 - > Rich H.: I appreciate it. 43 - > See, that's why you were a star student in my first class. 44 - > And I'm excited to be able to introduce you to Shannon 45 - > Flanagan. 46 - > She is a person that I've gotten to know. 47 - > Of course, you get to know somebody when you're in the back 48 - > of the van driving through the hills of Honduras doing good 49 - > things. 50 - > And you are finally here. 51 - > Shannon F.: Finally. 52 - > It's about time. 53 - > Rich H.: Yes. 54 - > Uh well, you have a few things going on, so you can be 55 - > forgiven. 56 - > Shannon F.: Well, I'm thrilled to be here. 57 - > Can't wait to chat with you, Judy, and get to know you more. 58 - > Um, and so yeah, let's let's get it going, Rich. 59 - > Where hard question are you gonna start with? 60 - > Rich H.: Well, we've read your bio. 61 - > It is impressive. 62 - > We would expect no less. 63 - > So, what we're gonna do is we're gonna have you curate that 64 - > down. 65 - > That's my word of the month. 66 - > And see if you can isolate three pivotal moments, and they 67 - > can be personal, professional, but three pivotal moments in in 68 - > your lifetime that have brought you to where you are at this 69 - > point in your life. 70 - >

Speaker 3: Well, I'm old, so there are more than three, but I 71 - > do have a couple. 72 - > So one happened at the age of 20 font. 73 - > I started in stores at 18. 74 - > I um went through May Company's executive training program. 75 - > I was a merchant, I was a buyer. 76 - > And while I was at Sephora, I realized that I loved all of the 77 - > special projects I was working on. 78 - > And I had a lot of people around me who were in consulting 79 - > at the time. 80 - > Prior to that, the Anderson Consultants of the World, et 81 - > cetera, didn't hire for experienced talent, but they'd 82 - > opened up the aperture. 83 - > So I went to work for Accenture. 84 - > I'm trying to find purpose in being in corporate America. 85 - > At the same time, we're implementing, you know, 86 - > transformational integrated planning systems like tops down 87 - > planning, bottoms-up. 88 - > Nobody was adopting it. 89 - > So a couple of things happened at that moment. 90 - > I got really interested in organizational design and change 91 - > management and leadership. 92 - > And I was also trying to find purpose in corporate America. 93 - > And it's there I discovered my why, which is to create the 94 - > conditions for people to love what they do every day. 95 - > It's been my through line, certainly getting to materialize 96 - > it in spades, I hope, today. 97 - > Um, but I believed in the ripple effect that if people 98 - > were thriving in the jobs that they had, they'd carry that 99 - > energy home to their family and their friends and the community 100 - > around them. 101 - > So that's the first pivotal moment is that it inspired me to 102 - > become a change practitioner. 103 - > So the rest of my career, I think, has followed suit with 104 - > that drive and passion and frankly skills. 105 - > Now, fast forward to another pivotal moment, which is more a 106 - > WTF moment, which is I had been in retail. 107 - > So I'd gone into consulting, I went back into retail. 108 - > I was with Gap Bank, then I was with Land Zend and Macy's, and 109 - > then back to Gap Bank. 110 - > And frankly, I got tired of solving the retail problems like 111 - > vendor managed inventory, which just didn't seem to die as an 112 - > initiative. 113 - > So I decided to try my hand at sales because I wanted um 114 - > business development, I wanted technology experience, failed 115 - > miserably. 116 - > Um, and ended that year with the what did I just do to my 117 - > career? 118 - > Now, if you're smart, so lessons to you students that you 119 - > can have these times in your career that you're like, that 120 - > was a waste, or I didn't learn anything. 121 - > I could not have done the jobs I did later without that 122 - > experience. 123 - > Uh and then the big pivotal moment was to um accelerate my 124 - > retirement plan to run a nonprofit and and share stories 125 - > of of people in the world that we live in. 126 - > So decided to go all in last year and uh build the nonprofit 127 - > that is retail women in tech and write a um book about the 128 - > stories of women in our industry and those of us who are 129 - > choosing, not chasing our career and doing the work that we 130 - > love. 131 - > Judy S.: Is retail something you always wanted to do? 132 - >

Speaker 3: Oh no, no, no. 133 - > So I was gonna be a lawyer. 134 - > Uh thank God that was not the path I took. 135 - > So I got into stores working at a department store at age 18. 136 - > I do have a moment that I was merchandising a gooseneck. 137 - > Do you know what a gooseneck is? 138 - > Does anybody know G Rich? 139 - > Do you remember that language? 140 - > I don't even know. 141 - > Like piece of a tea stand or a forestand. 142 - > Yeah, for tea stand or a four-way, and it's the thing 143 - > that sticks up on top of it and you put an outfit on top. 144 - > And I remembered that moment, I was like, oh my God, I love 145 - > merchandising product. 146 - > And I was in the juniors department. 147 - > I had the opportunity to go into corporate while I was in 148 - > college in a part-time executive role where I was working with 149 - > the luggage department and getting to go out into stores. 150 - > And I was a history major. 151 - > So again, law was my path, but I was offered the opportunity to 152 - > go into their executive training program. 153 - > And thank goodness I did. 154 - > I can't imagine loving another industry um better or actually 155 - > thriving. 156 - > Rich H.: You mentioned history. 157 - > Did you get a major in history? 158 - > I did. 159 - > Like for reason. 160 - >

Speaker 3: Well, and I will tell you, Rich, I did not know the 161 - > value of that. 162 - > It was not until, I don't know, maybe maybe 10, 12 years ago, 163 - > how much I realized it played into the work that I did. 164 - > So as somebody who's led strategic transformations, 165 - > right, that's kind of my like core space that I've done is 166 - > that it's about building uh a narrative. 167 - > And I hate using that word, it's kind of overused, but 168 - > telling the story as to why the change matters and to inspire 169 - > people to do that. 170 - > Well, what do historians do? 171 - > They go and they take all of these different data points, 172 - > right, and create a point of view and kind of a 173 - > recommendation of um where the world is and where it needs to 174 - > go. 175 - > So I think the degree has been very beneficial to me and and my 176 - > career and wouldn't change a fruit tea in China. 177 - > So my advice to students study what you love. 178 - > Don't study to get a job. 179 - > Study to do what you what you're passionate about. 180 - > Cause then your grades go up, dude. 181 - > Well, that is true. 182 - > For a semester, failure. 183 - > But did history and graduated Magna Fumel. 184 - > What's the challenge or setback that taught you something 185 - > lasting? 186 - > You guys are giving me all questions that were not on the 187 - > sheet. 188 - > My layoffs. 189 - > So I recognized um about a year ago that I was like, oh my 190 - > goodness, after having an incredibly successful career for 191 - > almost 20 years, that I had four layoffs in a row. 192 - > Two of which made total sense. 193 - > One was the sales role, one was due to COVID, right? 194 - > There was no business and retail. 195 - > But two were heart-wrenching, in particular the first. 196 - > But I would not be doing what I'm doing today. 197 - > The book would not have happened without that 198 - > experience. 199 - > The personal life that I chose to lead as a result of that 200 - > would not have happened without that challenge of rejection. 201 - > Rich H.: All right. 202 - > So I want to lean in on that a little bit because in five 203 - > minutes, what we discovered is the degree you got wasn't 204 - > necessarily structured around the career you have, but that's 205 - > okay. 206 - > You are openly talking about four layoffs, which our 207 - > generation was trained not to talk about those things. 208 - > We are not supposed to show our emotions on our sleeves. 209 - > We're not supposed to show fallibility and anything that 210 - > may be perceived as weakness, but you're talking about it in a 211 - > very positive way. 212 - > What was that moment and how is that fueling you now? 213 - > And you you answered it, but I guess I want to dive into a 214 - > little bit deeper because I've I've had a similar journey. 215 - > So I'm very curious to hear yours. 216 - >

Speaker 3: This is something that with our interns we talk a 217 - > lot about because it is perceived in our society as 218 - > failure. 219 - > I would argue it's our greatest times of growth. 220 - > And because what ends up, you're forced to change. 221 - > And you have to think hard around why were the reasons that 222 - > were maybe valid, but you also, I think it made me dug deep to 223 - > believe in the things that I could bring to the table and why 224 - > it was about fit, not skills and capabilities necessarily, 225 - > right? 226 - > So you will have times, and there's somebody who told me 227 - > many years ago about leadership is that you know, you can't, 228 - > it's oh God, let's see if I can come up with it. 229 - > I'm not gonna remember his formula, but as great as you 230 - > are, it doesn't matter if it's not the right fit. 231 - > It could be the wrong leader, it could be the wrong time. 232 - > And so I think those moments had made me pause. 233 - > Like two of them, like, yeah, no-brainer, didn't hurt my 234 - > feelings at all. 235 - > And the ones that did, I had to dig deep as to why that was the 236 - > case. 237 - > And it often came down because I had a personal relationship 238 - > with somebody that I felt like there was a violation of trust. 239 - > Uh, digging deep into both and separating what were my 240 - > capabilities that I still know and I believe to be true, and 241 - > then what was maybe the personal aspect. 242 - > And then I will close, and it's something that's a big part of 243 - > the book is we don't honor these transitional moments in our 244 - > life where we have a disruption, an unexpected one, and we want 245 - > to rush through to solving for that moment versus pausing and 246 - > going, What did I learn? 247 - > Let me sit with this and let me grow in this space in between 248 - > the moments. 249 - > Rich H.: I'm gonna go a little bit further, but I warned you 250 - > this is going to happen. 251 - > So if you want to take 20 minutes and get an espresso, and 252 - > I can call uh Randy and tell him that you're the one holding 253 - > up the conversation. 254 - > Shannon F.: Oh no, I mean, Rich, you and I can go. 255 - > So, no, you go for it. 256 - > Rich H.: What I'm interested in is there's obviously we want to 257 - > learn more about your career and the things that you've learned, 258 - > but you are hitting powerful lessons right from the beginning 259 - > and you're wearing those openly. 260 - > Was it gradual over time that you learn to accept those things 261 - > that happened and draw energy from it? 262 - > Or was there an epiphany at some point where there was just 263 - > that shock to the system where you said, you know what? 264 - > I've got to do this differently. 265 - >

Speaker 3: Both. 266 - > So the epiphany was the first layoff. 267 - > I mean, I was completely blindsided. 268 - > Uh, and what I took from that moment, now I had the luxury to 269 - > do this because I had an incredible severance package. 270 - > But I decided, as somebody who was the breadwinner, mother of 271 - > three kids, you know, very successful climbing the 272 - > corporate ladder, who was driven by to-dos, I made a very 273 - > purposeful decision when that layoff happened to not create 274 - > to-do lists and to live in the moment and really explore what 275 - > this idea, and and I'm not a spiritual guru, but this idea of 276 - > the of Zen, right? 277 - > And digging deeper and really reflecting on what it was in my 278 - > life and how I wanted to show up and what I needed. 279 - > So that was an epiphany. 280 - > Um, and that was a huge turning point that put me on the 281 - > trajectory that that finds me where I am today. 282 - > Where the slower burn is, is that it's taken me now a well, I 283 - > guess about eight years since then to actually have the, I 284 - > don't want to say confidence. 285 - > I was gonna say a dirty word, but the conviction to go after 286 - > doing what I believe I was I'm supposed to do. 287 - > And that's been a slower commitment, like the slower 288 - > realization I'd always felt like a uh square peg and a round 289 - > hole, and I don't anymore. 290 - > And God, does that feel amazing? 291 - > Rich H.: I can imagine. 292 - > So you're gonna tell me you were an original member of the 293 - > imposter syndrome club. 294 - >

Speaker 3: Oh no, oh no. 295 - > So I will tell you, I wasn't even on to this thing. 296 - > I've never felt like an imposter. 297 - > Never. 298 - > I was really confident. 299 - > I knew what I was great at. 300 - > Now, was I great at, was I great at reading the room and 301 - > adjusting who I was for the audience and recognizing that 302 - > maybe just always showing up as my true self was going to drive 303 - > the the impact and outcomes I wanted. 304 - > No, that's what I had to learn. 305 - > So, no, it was not imposter syndrome. 306 - > Somebody shared with me comparison syndrome. 307 - > And that's what has plagued me. 308 - > That it was because every role, not every role, 95% of my roles 309 - > since the beginning of my career have been brand new. 310 - > And so I did not take a traditional path in the kind of 311 - > roles I played in organizations. 312 - > So I was measuring my success in terms of I'm not maybe 313 - > climbing fast enough. 314 - > I certainly want, I mean, I was a VP at 34, so I don't know 315 - > what measurement I was playing that with. 316 - > But fast forward, I live in the Bay Area. 317 - > I have friends that have retired at 45 who might not have 318 - > had the glorious in careers in terms of impact and outcomes 319 - > that those two words drive the kind of work that I that I do. 320 - > Um, I also have been dealing with it uh pretty intensely, in 321 - > particular this last summer, that now as a founder, I'm 322 - > comparing myself to other founders and how many hours they 323 - > work and what they're giving up to do that. 324 - > I've compared myself financially, I've compared 325 - > myself as it relates to titles, and I've compared myself now to 326 - > hours equate to quality and impact. 327 - > And they not don't necessarily. 328 - > So that's more the thing I deal with pretty regularly still. 329 - > Rich H.: I I will admit it's the first time I I've heard that 330 - > and and stripping away the the label because labels often get 331 - > us into trouble. 332 - > And instead just looking at the the comparison. 333 - > I mean, if you look at consumerism and how it ramped up 334 - > playing off history post-World War II, it was feeding off a 335 - > comparison and saying, well, you don't have what the people next 336 - > door have, what the Joneses have, and so you've got to keep 337 - > up and take on all this debt. 338 - > And I see this generation of consumers, and I think by 339 - > influence, you and I buying less or buying smarter because we're 340 - > realizing that comparing possessions or comparing degrees 341 - > or comparing things like that isn't what's necessarily giving 342 - > us happiness. 343 - >

Speaker 3: And I think that comes to that point personally 344 - > in this endeavor is recommitting. 345 - > And we have to recommit to everything we do every day, our 346 - > relationships, our choices, et cetera. 347 - > But it was recommitting to values. 348 - > So to the students out there in the world, I decided right out 349 - > of college to prioritize balance in my life. 350 - > But I grew up in a world where women were working their tissues 351 - > off and the primary at home. 352 - > And it's not to say we don't have that to some degree today, 353 - > but it's definitely the balance is a little bit more equalized 354 - > than it was. 355 - > So I prioritize balance. 356 - > And you know what that meant? 357 - > I worked from 8 to 5, 5:30. 358 - > I didn't open my laptop at night, I didn't open it on the 359 - > weekends. 360 - > And it's one of the big pieces of advice I give to 361 - > up-and-coming rising uh stars like you, Judy, but also new 362 - > parents. 363 - > Because when you create boundaries, right, people do 364 - > respect them. 365 - > So I was able to have an incredibly successful career 366 - > working 45, 50 hours a week. 367 - > Now I'm a founder. 368 - > And guess what? 369 - > I started to do compare myself to the people who are working 15 370 - > hours a day, seven days a week. 371 - > I now work from seven to six and on the weekends, I'm working 372 - > the most I've ever worked. 373 - > I now don't have boundaries. 374 - > It's something that's caused some issues in my personal life 375 - > because my family and my friends are like, you're not here, 376 - > you're not present. 377 - > And now I'm having to deal with figuring out the boundaries in 378 - > this world. 379 - > And what I realized is that by buying into the narrative that 380 - > as a founder, I need to be working 15 hours a day, seven 381 - > days a week, I was violating my values because my values are the 382 - > diversity and the balance across all the things that drive 383 - > us as a human being, which includes our family, our 384 - > friends, our times for Gray's Anatomy. 385 - > This is something I process and work through daily. 386 - > But once I realized it was a violation of my values, it's 387 - > become a lot easier to quiet that voice. 388 - > Rich H.: And it it stifles innovation, I find. 389 - > For the time that I stepped out of being a corporate executive 390 - > and and leaned into having my own agency and taking on 391 - > projects, I found myself not able to turn it off and just 392 - > step away because I felt like I always had to be gunning, 393 - > especially when I'm the one driving the income. 394 - > If I'm not making the call. 395 - > So even if I was done by lunch and I had turned in what I 396 - > needed to turn in, I still felt compelled to do something. 397 - > I have a friend of mine, by contrast, Judy, we interviewed 398 - > him, and he owns an agency, owns a couple of companies. 399 - > And when he hit a wall, he went traveling with his son to minor 400 - > league baseball uh games across uh Central and South America. 401 - > What it turned out was that he developed a passion for it. 402 - > He was doing market research, and now he has ownership in 403 - > several minor league teams, but it was through that break and 404 - > that discovery that it led to innovation that sometimes we 405 - > don't have. 406 - >

Speaker 3: Well, and Rich, something that I still struggle 407 - > with. 408 - > So as much as I say this, right? 409 - > So I've been able to work through the comparison part. 410 - > What I'm still struggling with to this day is it is what I wake 411 - > up and go to bed thinking about every single moment of my life. 412 - > Now, I'm pretty good at shutting off. 413 - > So last year I had the good fortune of traveling to 14 414 - > different cities, a couple of different countries. 415 - > I turned 50, there was lots of celebrations. 416 - > I spent time with my daughter and Rich with retail ROI in 417 - > Honduras. 418 - > But it is super hard, though, to create the space. 419 - > And I'm telling you, I'm failing at it, is to go take a 420 - > walk. 421 - > But I absolutely 100% agree that we need the space for 422 - > creativity. 423 - > We need the space to be in nature to fuel our souls to be 424 - > able to do this incredible work. 425 - > So now that's my 2026 struggle and objective is to be able to 426 - > give myself the grace for the space. 427 - > Rich H.: So you have been involved with several retailers, 428 - > you've been involved with consultants, you've done sales, 429 - > you've worked with nonprofits in the past, you founded a 430 - > nonprofit, you're writing a book. 431 - > When you get involved with something, when you decide 432 - > whether it's work or personal or passion or purpose, what are 433 - > you looking for in that? 434 - > What are you looking to achieve or get out of it before you 435 - > say, you know what, I'm in? 436 - >

Speaker 3: So it comes down to the why that I had at 25. 437 - > I want to create the conditions for people to love what they do 438 - > every day. 439 - > You actually reminded me of this, which Judy, this is 440 - > something to call out that I had forgotten. 441 - > It's also around potential realization and actualization. 442 - > Now, I I really focused in on that concept and that language 443 - > earlier on. 444 - > And I think then I decided it was, I didn't think I know. 445 - > I decided that that's a bar that's super high. 446 - > We never arrive, right? 447 - > We're always on a journey. 448 - > But when I look at both, if I was to tie together the personal 449 - > and the professional, was how do you create the conditions for 450 - > people to feel their potential, right? 451 - > Lean into it. 452 - > And maybe it's potential is actually, I'm gonna have to 453 - > rework this. 454 - > You guys have inspired me. 455 - > Potential is the wrong word, right? 456 - > But again, to be who you are and celebrate that and find the 457 - > work that's the best fit while having fire to do that. 458 - > It has been that through line throughout the course of my 459 - > career. 460 - > And then the decisions might make. 461 - > And one of the questions you guys had posed, and it's a 462 - > little bit different, but what I'm looking for when I engage 463 - > with experiences or opportunities, especially 464 - > ventures. 465 - > And I didn't know the answer to this question. 466 - > I found it really insightful when I did it. 467 - > And I actually brought it up with my my president today that 468 - > it's white space. 469 - > And that term sounds very business focused, but there's 470 - > something about I think every Space I've been in, partly 471 - > because I've had all brand new roles, right? 472 - > So I'm crafting something that doesn't exist. 473 - > But where is there an opportunity to drive impact 474 - > that's not already in motion? 475 - > And I do think innovation is a completely overused word, but to 476 - > innovate right in ways that people haven't done before. 477 - > Rich H.: I wrote this down impact not already or always in 478 - > motion. 479 - > And I think I don't know whether you've used that phrase 480 - > before or whether in the conversation just came out, but 481 - > I would trademark the heck out of it because I think that to 482 - > the extent that I've been able to get to know you, that sounds 483 - > like a defining statement. 484 - >

Speaker 3: It is. 485 - > And it's relative to like what we're doing here at Retail Women 486 - > in Tech. 487 - > There are a lot of activities and communities and initiatives 488 - > that have great intentions to bring women to sitting at more 489 - > seats at the table in all aspects of what we do. 490 - > But is it really doing that? 491 - > Is it just your networking and then what happens when you leave 492 - > the room? 493 - > So as we built this nonprofit, the impact is what is going to 494 - > change the world. 495 - > So, no, but I I I thank you for that, Rich, for calling that 496 - > out. 497 - > I actually have a trademark I'll share when I share some 498 - > closing advice to the students out there. 499 - > But Judy, your turn. 500 - > Rich and I could obviously talk forever. 501 - > So let's pause. 502 - > We'll both shut up and give you the stage for a second. 503 - > Judy S.: I was just gonna ask to get to where we are today. 504 - > Is there something that you did day to day that you think was 505 - > the key to your success? 506 - >

Speaker 3: So I'm not gonna answer that directly, but I'm 507 - > gonna um answer it in a way that has inspired me that is at the 508 - > core, what gets me up every day. 509 - > I don't know if you ever watched Charlie Rose, but he was 510 - > on PBS and he curated the most incredible interviews with 511 - > people from every different aspect of um humanity, right? 512 - > And really talked about their stories, their journeys, et 513 - > cetera. 514 - > And in my mid-20s, what I observed with those that were 515 - > older in their career is that they had perseverance. 516 - > They had passion. 517 - > They never retired. 518 - > I never wanted to retire and quit working. 519 - > So I was always really inspired by these people who had passion 520 - > and perseverance for what they wanted to do. 521 - > So that word, one passion, like just naturally comes from who I 522 - > am. 523 - > So that one was an easy win. 524 - > The hard one, but the one that pays off is the perseverance. 525 - > So that is what gets me going through every day. 526 - > And I used this phrase earlier, and I'm particularly true with 527 - > the decisions I've made in the last year to go all in on the 528 - > nonprofit, to write the book and write and have many more that I 529 - > want to write. 530 - > And I'm digging deep into my retirement, is that I have to 531 - > recommit daily to being true to myself. 532 - > And that ain't easy. 533 - > It's sure rewarding, but it ain't easy. 534 - > Judy S.: So, following up on that, would you say that there 535 - > is a trait that you see in other people that you would believe 536 - > would be effective leaders in their future? 537 - >

Speaker 3: So, this is gonna come back to maybe my trademark 538 - > that I think I want to have that that um was uh inspired as I 539 - > went through telling the stories of others and myself is this 540 - > idea of fit and fire. 541 - > So I recommend if I was to give the advice to all of you, 542 - > always have a fire in your belly for whatever you're doing. 543 - > And when the fire dies out, then you need to pause and 544 - > question is it the right place? 545 - > Now, that fire could go almost to nothing and then get some 546 - > gas. 547 - > Like it's not the second that the fire starts to die, that you 548 - > go running, right? 549 - > There's shit work that can turn into and terrible situations 550 - > that can turn into awesome. 551 - > So that fire does not need to be roaring all the time. 552 - > And in fact, that's a misnomer if you think that's the case. 553 - > But if the light has gone out, you don't see a fuel supply 554 - > coming anytime soon. 555 - > Pause. 556 - > That should be the constant. 557 - > The fit, though, changes over time. 558 - > So there are times that something makes sense based on 559 - > where you are. 560 - > And the fit could be, I need to do this hard work that I don't 561 - > love and I'm not totally interested in, but it is gonna 562 - > help me get where I need to go. 563 - > Or the fit is this is what I need to do because I have a new 564 - > um child, right? 565 - > Or my parent is sick. 566 - > So I think the flexibility around fit and that evolves. 567 - > But you have to also respect and appreciate that you might 568 - > not fit in in that time and place given your life with the 569 - > work that you have. 570 - > And if you don't have, if the fit's not right and you don't 571 - > have fire, then I think I give you carp launch to get the F out 572 - > of there and figure out what is gonna work. 573 - > Rich H.: Yeah, because if you if you stay in a situation like 574 - > that, and and I really respect the fact that you said the fire 575 - > may be close to being extinguished. 576 - > It's not, you don't go in every day and it's not gonna be a 577 - > barrel laughs and it's gonna be no, it's gonna be challenging 578 - > days. 579 - > But you get to that point. 580 - > I I compare it to I get up in the morning, I look in the 581 - > mirror, and if today's the day that my values and goals don't 582 - > align with where I am, that's a day that I have to decide that 583 - > it's time to move on, not to walk in and disparage the 584 - > organization or try to move it where it's immovable, but that's 585 - > the moment where I have to say, and it and it may be a job I 586 - > love, or it may be working for someone I love, or but it 587 - > doesn't align anymore. 588 - > That's the day you have to say, it's time to be uncomfortable. 589 - >

Speaker 3: Well, and I think, Rich, for me, you know, I get 590 - > that we're older, right? 591 - > So we have learned these lessons. 592 - > And but what my hope is, is that we can accelerate that for 593 - > the younger generation. 594 - > Be purpose-driven in what you're doing and really question 595 - > the idea of the value of money and title and status in terms of 596 - > fulfillment, taking care of yourself and what drives you and 597 - > the values that you have in exchange for maybe some of the 598 - > things that we've traditionally thought were important, like 599 - > lots of money. 600 - > That money can disappear in a heartbeat, right? 601 - > Now, you have to balance it. 602 - > Money did give me the opportunity to do this, but I've 603 - > never struck it rich at all. 604 - > This is a big gamble on myself. 605 - > But I think those gambles, if we can encourage rich, these 606 - > younger generations, to stay true to the feelings they have 607 - > in their heart, I would have done what I'm doing now a lot 608 - > earlier. 609 - > Judy S.: That's definitely great advice. 610 - > Um, but I feel like once once you're starting your career, 611 - > it's kind of hard to choose something that you feel like 612 - > would feel a lot of fulfillment from, especially knowing that 613 - > you have a lot of expenses you need to cover. 614 - > So I feel like it's kind of like a two-way in a way. 615 - >

Speaker 3: So I was gonna say though, I think as somebody 616 - > who's, you know, dipping into retirement and having to get 617 - > really smart about what you realize is how little you need. 618 - > And what's the payoff? 619 - > That comes down to the question of fit. 620 - > There might be a time that the right fit is when you want to 621 - > focus in on the making the money and the titles, et cetera, and 622 - > you're willing to give up values and peace and fulfillment. 623 - > And that's up to everybody to decide. 624 - > But Rich, to your point earlier, in a consumerism-based 625 - > environment, like how many pairs of shoes do we actually need? 626 - > How big does the house need to be? 627 - > Yes, we have bills, but the facts of the matter out there 628 - > are, and I don't know who I'd quote, that as long as your 629 - > everyday expenses are covered, there is not a huge increase in 630 - > happiness beyond that. 631 - > And I think that's part of the opportunities to break down that 632 - > success. 633 - > Rich H.: And I think it's a great conversation, but you're 634 - > you're almost redefining the difference between a career and 635 - > a job. 636 - > And it's okay to have a job that pays the bills that allows 637 - > you to do things that fuel you, like go to Honduras to work with 638 - > Daisy and do something really meaningful. 639 - > And we will get to that a little bit later. 640 - > But you kind of alluded to the fact that your first semester in 641 - > college may not have been the best. 642 - > And I was gonna say, hey, want to compare GPAs because Judy 643 - > would probably laugh at who wins the lowest GPA. 644 - > Shannon F.: Oh, oh, oh, let's do it. 645 - > Let's do it. 646 - > What do you think, Judy? 647 - > Rich H.: Who goes first? 648 - > Shannon F.: So no, Judy, I want to I'm because I want to know 649 - > what that she thinks is a bad GPA. 650 - > Judy S.: Mine was mine was pretty low. 651 - > I was at 3.1. 652 - > My false amount. 653 - >

Speaker 2: Oh so the point. 654 - > Rich H.: So I was going to do that. 655 - > Shannon F.: But we could have not scripted that better. 656 - > All right. 657 - > So what do you think Rich and I have? 658 - > I mean, because I'm talking way lower than that. 659 - > 2.5? 660 - > Judy S.: Pardon me? 661 - > Like a 2.6, 2.0? 662 - > Rich H.: My first semester, 1.33. 663 - > Shannon F.: Oh, he beat me. 664 - > Of course he did. 665 - > I had a 1.9. 666 - > Rich H.: Yeah. 667 - > My first semester, 133. 668 - > And but the point I was gonna make is, and there was a point 669 - > in time where I would have never admitted that, but nobody's 670 - > asking what your GPA is back in. 671 - > Yeah. 672 - > Flip side, nobody cares that I got a 3.9 when I went to William 673 - > Mary and got my MBA. 674 - >

Speaker 3: Yeah. 675 - > Rich H.: Exactly. 676 - > Yeah, well, I graduated as a, you know, 3.9. 677 - > What you do with your time and how you impact or what leads to 678 - > it. 679 - > And I think I didn't have that realization until I was well 680 - > into my 40s that the things that I thought were of value really 681 - > meant nothing, and they mean nothing to me now. 682 - >

Speaker 3: And that's to the point, Rich, and what I was 683 - > saying to you, Judy, is like, I and I appreciate that, you know, 684 - > Rich and I are now in our 50s. 685 - > And the best thing about getting older is wisdom. 686 - > Right. 687 - > There's a lot of things I don't love, but you do get wisdom. 688 - > And I know that wisdom can't be forced upon people who have not 689 - > had the experience. 690 - > But the wisdom that I hope that your generation can start to 691 - > internalize is don't let work destroy your life. 692 - > And Rich and I have seen, and we've also experienced the 693 - > impact that a crappy job has. 694 - > And again, you have to do crappy work sometimes. 695 - > I mean, with the interns, um, it's actually happened for 696 - > somebody who is outside of this, who was at ETL last year, that 697 - > had this misconception that being a CMO was going to be like 698 - > walking apart. 699 - > And I was like, no, like in our organization as a startup, 700 - > we're still rolling up our sleeves and build, you know, 701 - > doing data dumps into Google Sheets and sorting and sifting. 702 - > Is that what you're working so hard for? 703 - > Is to not have a life when you're an EVP? 704 - > Because you're supposed to be always on and you're traveling 705 - > everywhere. 706 - > And I think that there's this romantization around like these 707 - > titles and the access you get, et cetera. 708 - > But all of it comes at a cost. 709 - > And I I say to my kids, I have three teenagers, life is a 710 - > series of trade-offs. 711 - > And you can, and those trade-offs shift over time. 712 - > And they're okay to maybe sometimes be incongruent. 713 - > But I do think for your generation, it's like, why learn 714 - > from us? 715 - > Judy S.: Well, going back to how you guys shared your GPAs, I 716 - > think that's amazing. 717 - > And I really hope you guys keep that part in the podcast 718 - > because speaking of comparison and how you were mentioning it 719 - > earlier, just today I was looking through LinkedIn and I 720 - > saw somebody graduated with being on these lists every 721 - > semester and found myself comparing to that. 722 - > And being like, I was never able to do that. 723 - > And I feel like um studying was never mm my strength, I think. 724 - > Like I always I feel like I always put in more effort than 725 - > other people, and then they'd end up getting a better grade 726 - > than I would, even though I'd be stuck in the library for hours. 727 - > So it's really great hearing that. 728 - > And I feel like so many other students would appreciate 729 - > hearing that perspective. 730 - > I just thought I had to say that. 731 - >

Speaker 3: So Judy, and I think Rich is gonna echo me. 732 - > I don't think I'm gonna go far off on this one. 733 - > Or in our third cohort of interns. 734 - > I know within five minutes if I'm gonna bring them on or not. 735 - > And I don't look at, you know, yes, do I see their GPA on a 736 - > resume? 737 - > What I look for energy, commitment, drive, curiosity, 738 - > want to learn something new. 739 - > And those are qualities that do not show up on a resume. 740 - > And even when I would do hiring before the interns, I would 741 - > tell people, I want to know who you are. 742 - > And there's a lot of talk about this idea of a career 743 - > narrative. 744 - > And again, these like these words that we get stuck in. 745 - > But it the jeunesse qua is what's going to connect you and 746 - > make you special. 747 - > But at the end of the day, I'm hiring based on drive and 748 - > passion and commitment and the belief that anybody can learn 749 - > something if they care enough. 750 - > So, Rich, I'm curious in what you feel about that topic. 751 - > Rich H.: So I agree with you. 752 - > And I I think that what I would say is does a GPA matter? 753 - > It may or may not. 754 - > Does a title matter? 755 - > It may or may not. 756 - > But it's what drove you to it. 757 - > Like I can interview somebody who had a 3.8 GPA. 758 - > I think I saw the same LinkedIn post. 759 - > And if I gain an understanding as to what drove them and what 760 - > they were doing with it, and it's part of their brand, and I 761 - > hate to default to that, but I'm going to, then okay, I get it. 762 - > Conversely, I might interview somebody who has a 2.5 GPA and 763 - > they struggle to get that, but the struggle made them hungry 764 - > and it made them passionate, and they have other interests, and 765 - > they're just a more well-rounded person. 766 - > And I know that that person is someone, if they hit a brick 767 - > wall, they're going to keep going. 768 - > And one of the things that I tell my daughter all the time is 769 - > learning isn't measured by a grade. 770 - > And success isn't measured by a salary. 771 - > Now, money's important, grades are important, and you've got 772 - > to, but it's it's much more than that. 773 - > And I think that's one of the things that I don't think, 774 - > Shannon, we teach enough is, and I don't like to, I don't want 775 - > to necessarily default to how do you brand yourself? 776 - > It's who are you? 777 - >

Speaker 3: And it's going to say in your why, right? 778 - > And what gets you out of bed every day? 779 - > That's what we want to hear. 780 - > That's what we're hiring for. 781 - > And it's what you deserve. 782 - > Rich H.: But I'm going to pivot a little bit. 783 - > What is your greatest satisfaction in being a leader? 784 - >

Speaker 3: Oh, seeing people thrive. 785 - > It's those moments, and again, it's the creating the conditions 786 - > for people to love what they do every day. 787 - > But when they I don't know, when they feel good about where 788 - > they are. 789 - > Rich H.: And I knew that was going to be your answer. 790 - > Not because you said it before, but instinctively I knew. 791 - > And because of that, and it's why relationships and networking 792 - > are so important, is that I'm going to compare it to the New 793 - > York Yankees. 794 - > You can go out and buy all the expensive players you want. 795 - > You can pay top contracts. 796 - > It doesn't guarantee you a championship. 797 - > Not at all. 798 - > And as a coach, as a manager, as a leader, if you really love 799 - > what you do, you take great pride in finding the 800 - > undiscovered, finding the underdog, finding that team 801 - > player who's going to gut it out day in and day out, who wasn't 802 - > given a chance by other clubs, and they end up becoming your 803 - > 12th person or your leader or your MVP. 804 - > And so that's why degrees matter and grades matter, and 805 - > but it's the total package. 806 - >

Speaker 3: Well, it's the five-tool player, right? 807 - > Of course, you need the person who's going to be your power 808 - > hitter. 809 - > But I'm going to answer it differently than I thought I 810 - > would. 811 - > So what I would say is that in we, we, you know, at Retail 812 - > Onatech, we're so thrilled with our mentorship program. 813 - > We're blowing it up this year. 814 - > But this idea of sponsorship, right? 815 - > And so as you're going through and you're cultivating these 816 - > relationships, but for those speaking to the audience who are 817 - > hearing this that are not 19, 20, 21, 22, whatever it is, how 818 - > are you sponsoring someone? 819 - > Because I think that's where Rich, the role of a sponsor, is 820 - > cultivating the pieces of somebody that they don't maybe 821 - > know that's there, but we can see. 822 - > So we're not just telling them and mentoring them. 823 - > We're actually sitting in the rooms on behalf of them. 824 - > And we're driving and encouraging them to follow those 825 - > pieces of them. 826 - > And it's not easy, you guys. 827 - > It's not easy to follow that. 828 - > And when I decided to step outside of the box, and I hate 829 - > to use that was a really overused phrase for a long time, 830 - > not in my thinking, but in my actions, is when I finally found 831 - > the way that I can have the greatest impact in the world. 832 - > Rich H.: The challenge today within careers, and I've I've 833 - > made this joke before, that it's almost like I'll have my AI 834 - > contact your AI because HR departments are using AI to 835 - > filter resumes, and professionals or students are 836 - > taking AI to take their resume and search for all the keywords. 837 - > And you get the social media reels that are basically saying, 838 - > here's how you take your resume, look at the 120 keywords 839 - > and optimize it. 840 - > And it's like a gentic hiring as opposed to what you're doing. 841 - > Yes, it's women in retail tech, but it's about a connection and 842 - > it's about meeting people and learning about people and 843 - > empowering people and driving people forward and the industry 844 - > forward. 845 - >

Speaker 3: Well, and that inspires several points, but uh 846 - > we'll see how many I get to. 847 - > So, right, we believe one-to-one connections are a 848 - > superpower. 849 - > When you create a connection with somebody, you're not just 850 - > doing it for yourself, right? 851 - > It's a reciprocal, I care about you, I hear you, I want to get 852 - > to know you. 853 - > And so that's part of what we tried to foster. 854 - > We also are fostering the skills, the upskill skilling, 855 - > the transferable skills. 856 - > So I talked about a perfect storm grooming. 857 - > One of them is the AI recruiting models because it's 858 - > going to model the cultures and the population that already 859 - > exist. 860 - > We've also gone, and you guys, the amount of stories I hear 861 - > now, people going through, and Rich, have you been hearing this 862 - > six, seven, eight interviews? 863 - > I don't know how these companies have the time for it, 864 - > to be quite frank. 865 - > No, and we've said, Judy, to our college student interns, 866 - > like, they're like, nobody's getting back to me. 867 - > I always like, well, welcome to the party, because you could be 868 - > as SVP and nobody's getting back to you. 869 - > What's going on with that being the case? 870 - > I can we can only speak for retail, or at least I can. 871 - > We are hiring for unicorns and we're hiring for deep functional 872 - > expertise. 873 - > But our Power of We Wednesday interview series that we have 874 - > done with over 60 women and a handful of allies, none of them 875 - > had a linear career path. 876 - > They all had spider webs. 877 - > And so one of the things that we are really focused in on is 878 - > how do we change the conversation and open the 879 - > aperture for tech companies, retailers, media to value the 880 - > diversity of life experiences and career experiences that make 881 - > us the best of who we are. 882 - > So we're trying to create one-to-one connections, but also 883 - > the skills, the transferable skills, the upskills, the 884 - > ability to tell that story to somebody, because you can't get 885 - > a job without a connection and you can't get a job without the 886 - > skills. 887 - > You need the magic of those things coming together. 888 - > Rich H.: It's a wonderful place to be able to come into and to 889 - > be able to forge those connections, whether it's the 890 - > skills or whether it's the people, and be able to create 891 - > opportunities that way. 892 - >

Speaker 3: And that I mean, that's at the core of what we 893 - > want to do, right? 894 - > Is to build this workforce engine of that's driving to 895 - > mobility. 896 - > Yes, parity, right? 897 - > That's the ambitious goal. 898 - > But mobility, because we also know, Rich, within a retailer, 899 - > if you want to go from merchandising into planning or 900 - > planning into merchandising, that's almost impossible. 901 - > Let alone I'm in merchandising and I have a passion for 902 - > technology. 903 - > Where do I go? 904 - > I'm in technology. 905 - > I have a passion for retail. 906 - > I can't get in there. 907 - > And we're gonna grow as an industry if you just put your 908 - > business net on. 909 - > It makes sense to do that. 910 - > Rich H.: It's the reason I don't like rom coms because if the 911 - > two just had a communication in the first five minutes, I could 912 - > have skipped the rest of the movie and gone to dinner. 913 - > And you have an industry that's saying we can't find talent. 914 - > You have talented people saying we can't find jobs. 915 - > And it's like, okay, let's skip the popcorn and introduce you. 916 - >

Speaker 2: I'm gonna borrow that. 917 - > That is exactly, and that's ridiculous. 918 - >

Speaker 3: In our industry right now, Judy, I don't want to 919 - > scare you guys all from coming to retail. 920 - > And Rich, these are the numbers I read last week in Retail 921 - > Dive. 922 - > Nothing to do with what happened this week. 923 - > We have layoffs at 125% year over year from last year. 924 - > We're the highest, I think, impacted industry with layoffs. 925 - > Rich H.: And that'll be a whole other conversation because it's 926 - > one of the areas where I am maybe encouraged isn't the right 927 - > word, but optimistic that with tech, with agentic AI, when used 928 - > properly, that it'll open up opportunities for a wider range 929 - > of talent. 930 - > But we have to get through that right now. 931 - >

Speaker 3: Well, and Rich, that is what we that's so a part of 932 - > who we are and committed to is that we need to foster the 933 - > spaces for women to fill those roles. 934 - > Because I absolutely agree. 935 - > AI is not necessarily going to take your job, but somebody who 936 - > knows it is. 937 - > And we need to redefine in our industry. 938 - > So we're planning to hopefully put together a think tank that 939 - > define what's the AI operating model of the future. 940 - > AI is not just a technology, it's a way of life. 941 - > And we need to completely rethink the way things are 942 - > happening and who are at the table and where to make those 943 - > things happening. 944 - > So, Rich, yeah, let's pick up on another conversation. 945 - > I could go another four hours on that topic. 946 - > Rich H.: We will put together a round table. 947 - > So I do have to ask one question before we go to the 948 - > rapid fire. 949 - > Because we did have the opportunity to experience retail 950 - > ROI together and to go to Honduras to the Kapan region and 951 - > the importance exactly and the importance of giving back. 952 - > And I think I still have a hard time expressing what that trip 953 - > did. 954 - > I I know you've done a better job putting it into words. 955 - > What Did it mean to you and why is that important from a life 956 - > learning perspective? 957 - >

Speaker 3: I mean, this really came down to being a mother of 958 - > three. 959 - > I come back to something that's been said way before I ever 960 - > existed. 961 - > Children are not born with hate. 962 - > Hate is learned. 963 - > Trauma changes people. 964 - > So I have a philosophy that I think is shared by many parents 965 - > because there's the whole conversation around nature 966 - > versus nurture. 967 - > We come out who we are. 968 - > We're like stone, we're statues, we're stone. 969 - > Our genetics, our nature is really damn strong. 970 - > But what nurture does is it could it could chisel out of 971 - > bouquet or cut your leg off. 972 - > And so when I think about what we were doing, Rich, is it's 973 - > starting at the youngest levels, right? 974 - > And how do we build a world and build the flywheel and the 975 - > momentum that there's less hate, there's less violence, there's 976 - > less trauma. 977 - > Because to me, the one the most heartbreaking thing is a child 978 - > in trauma. 979 - > And so that's what really moved me around what we were doing. 980 - > And then to see, and this comes back to what we were saying 981 - > earlier about what do we really need. 982 - > And I think you see the humanity and the value of 983 - > somebody being thoughtful and just touching and connecting. 984 - > They don't need a McMijan, they just want a meal. 985 - > And so I think it comes back and it connects you to the fact 986 - > that what world are we living in in America in our definition of 987 - > success when we have these people that are lining up for a 988 - > plate of rice. 989 - > And we have these in these college kids so concerned about 990 - > their 4.2. 991 - > So it brings back to me the gratitude that we we have to 992 - > live with. 993 - > It doesn't take away from our own personal pain. 994 - > But Rich, I don't know if that answered the question or not, or 995 - > how you felt. 996 - > Rich H.: There's no right answer to that, but I think you you 997 - > framed it very well. 998 - > I and and you and I were both were there for that moment. 999 - > The the moment when we were with the families that basically 1000 - > live next, they they live in well, I'm not saying next to it, 1001 - > they live in the landfill. 1002 - > And so basically you take a poor community and the trash the 1003 - > poor community gets rid of is up in this landfill, and they're 1004 - > living off of that. 1005 - > And and this tells you a lot about your your perceptions and 1006 - > how they can be wrong. 1007 - > Your daughter and Nikki's daughter had cameras and 1008 - > bubbles, and I'm thinking, why? 1009 - > This is ridiculous. 1010 - > And yet, when they were taking pictures of the kids and they 1011 - > were blowing bubbles, and the smiles and the laughs and the 1012 - > grins and and the father who held the his daughter and was 1013 - > fixing his hair for the for the picture, I'm sitting there 1014 - > saying, How simple is it to make somebody smile and laugh? 1015 - > And if I were in charge, I would have said, Don't bring 1016 - > that, bring more rice. 1017 - > And yet that probably meant more in the stickers and things 1018 - > like that. 1019 - > The stickers that's gonna come back to the stickers. 1020 - > Yeah, it it does put it in perspective. 1021 - > And I bring that back and I say, you know, within working 1022 - > with our associates and working with our families and working 1023 - > with our customers or our patrons is how do you bring 1024 - > those moments of joy, realizing that you know, there are tough 1025 - > lives out there, and it's it's our job to try and make it a 1026 - > little bit better. 1027 - > unknown: Yeah. 1028 - > Rich H.: All right, we're gonna have to lift this up, Judy. 1029 - > Now, you know that she's anticipating one of the 1030 - > questions, and let's see if you or I can hit it to start. 1031 - >

Speaker 3: Oh, let's see. 1032 - > The hardest one. 1033 - > Judy S.: Let's see if you get it. 1034 - > I want to say it's the dinner with three people. 1035 - >

Speaker 3: I had to think hard about that one, and I'm not 1036 - > saying I've got the right answer, but I tried not to 1037 - > overthink it, and I didn't really think about them all 1038 - > together. 1039 - > Judy S.: Is it the city? 1040 - > Go to city for a day. 1041 - >

Speaker 3: That's the one I struggled with. 1042 - > Judy S.: I was gonna say that one, but then I was like, okay, 1043 - > maybe it's the dinner one. 1044 - > Okay, then I would love for you to answer that question. 1045 - >

Speaker 3: Well, I'll answer both, but that one was really 1046 - > hard. 1047 - > All right. 1048 - > Really hard. 1049 - > Because there's so many places I want to go, but if I only get 1050 - > to be there for 24 hours, that was the hardest part. 1051 - > So my initial like part was Mount Everest. 1052 - > And I was like, I don't know. 1053 - > I mean, you arrive, like, that's not a 24-hour day. 1054 - > I'd love to see Tibet. 1055 - > I mean, I've been in the mountains of Thailand, like how 1056 - > different would it be? 1057 - > So then I decided a place that, no offense, that I would love 1058 - > to go for 24 hours and only 24 hours is the pyramids. 1059 - > Because I don't think I would ever take the trip out there 1060 - > otherwise. 1061 - > And I want to see, I mean, I'm just absolutely in awe. 1062 - > And you made me come back to a place. 1063 - > Now, when I was at NRF, Rich, I don't know if you were up on 1064 - > the fourth or fifth floor where there was the Amex booth and you 1065 - > could get this cool to me luggage pad tag if you stood in 1066 - > line and they had a big board of all the places you were gonna 1067 - > go. 1068 - > And the one place I wanted to go was the Mel D, but I'm not 1069 - > going there just for 24 hours. 1070 - > That needs to be two weeks of decompressing. 1071 - > Rich H.: All right. 1072 - > So I'll ask the question that uh that I know Ghee would have 1073 - > asked, and it isn't on the list because I haven't added it yet. 1074 - > But if you had the choice of traveling into the future or 1075 - > traveling into the past, you can't impact anything, but you 1076 - > can choose how far in the future, how far in the past. 1077 - > Where would you go? 1078 - >

Speaker 3: It would not be past. 1079 - > I mean, and maybe that's partly not to toot my own horn as a 1080 - > historian that I uh internalize and listen and read and feel all 1081 - > the things that have already happened. 1082 - > And things are better today than they've ever were. 1083 - > As much as we like to think that we're retracting, we do in 1084 - > some ways. 1085 - > I'd like to believe that life is like the cha-cha, right? 1086 - > Two steps, you know, all over the place. 1087 - > I wouldn't go too far in the future, though. 1088 - > Uh I think I would maybe go 50 years. 1089 - > I'd want to see what my grandchildren's life was going 1090 - > to be like. 1091 - > And I would hope that I would feel so your children's, Judy, 1092 - > that I would hope that I don't have to fear for them. 1093 - > But that's a deep question, Rich. 1094 - > Rich H.: He's made that his signature. 1095 - > I I don't know whether I should have asked it if it's his 1096 - > signature, but it's okay. 1097 - > He's not on. 1098 - > It's okay. 1099 - > All right, Judy, you asked the final question. 1100 - > Judy S.: So, what is something you've purchased on a trip that 1101 - > you regret buying? 1102 - > Oh, so I'm sorry. 1103 - >

Speaker 3: This was the question I had no answer for. 1104 - > Rich H.: All right, so go in the opposite direction. 1105 - > What's something you bought on a trip that was on a whim that 1106 - > you just absolutely love? 1107 - >

Speaker 3: I'm very frugal. 1108 - > So I don't spend on things. 1109 - > I spend on the experiences. 1110 - > So I'm gonna answer it differently. 1111 - > It's not a thing, it was an experience. 1112 - > So I was in New York with my daughter this last September, 1113 - > and we bonded and spent countless hours of my life 1114 - > watching Gossip Girl together. 1115 - > We'd shopped all day on Friday and Saturday morning. 1116 - > We were gonna go hit all the Gossip Girl stuffs, and I 1117 - > splurged. 1118 - > Again, I'm living off retirement right now and I'm 1119 - > frugal, but I spent to have one of the bicyclist guys, Chuck Tux 1120 - > or whatever, take us on a Gossip Girl tour. 1121 - > And that was worth everything. 1122 - > So it wasn't a thing and it was an experience. 1123 - > But I'm at the Emperor's State Hotel. 1124 - > I look at the drinks and I was like, oh, I really want that 1125 - > drink. 1126 - > And it comes in and it's got Gossip Girl like stamped on it. 1127 - > Rich H.: I really respect that answer because it's one of those 1128 - > a material possession. 1129 - > Oftentimes you're not going to remember it, and you can lose 1130 - > it. 1131 - > I mean, hey, you know, you never know what life's gonna 1132 - > what life's gonna happen, but nobody can take away the 1133 - > experience of being in New York with your daughter going through 1134 - > Gossip Girl and doing the the Central Park and he plays the 1135 - > music. 1136 - >

Speaker 3: And I was like, Pi, we're not like the cheesy other 1137 - > people. 1138 - > Like, we're doing Gossip Girl and getting the thumbs up 1139 - > everywhere. 1140 - > So yes. 1141 - > Did Judy did I answer your question? 1142 - > Do I get a pass fail on that one? 1143 - > Judy S.: Yeah, I love that. 1144 - > I love gossip girls, so you definitely get the pass. 1145 - > Rich H.: All right. 1146 - > Well, Judy, do you want to close the show? 1147 - > I mean, I will say thank you to Shannon. 1148 - > This is this has been a long time coming. 1149 - > We've talked about it for quite a bit. 1150 - > We will definitely have to do a round table and and delve into 1151 - > a couple of topics, but this was well worth the wait. 1152 - > I greatly appreciate you investing the time today. 1153 - >

Speaker 3: What a great way to end my friday, while my Friday 1154 - > is not totally over like yours. 1155 - > But uh at the core of what we do and what I do every day is 1156 - > again uh creating the conditions for people to love. 1157 - > And that doesn't matter. 1158 - > You know, we honor every season. 1159 - > So, Judy, it's you and your peers, it's high schoolers, it's 1160 - > those who are just starting out, it's those who are in the 1161 - > messy middle, no matter what age, it's those at later stages. 1162 - > We have to learn on our own. 1163 - > But if we can close the gap a little bit of the pain that 1164 - > we've gone through to do the work that we're supposed to do, 1165 - > um, I hope we inspire you guys to have at least a voice in your 1166 - > head that's saying, Is this really what I want? 1167 - > Those are choices you have to make. 1168 - > Judy S.: That is definitely a question that I think about as 1169 - > well. 1170 - > Um, but it's great to hear your advice on that. 1171 - > And thank you so much for joining us today, Shannon. 1172 - > It was great speaking with you and learning from your 1173 - > experience. 1174 - >

Speaker 3: My pleasure.