From Power Shopping to Place-Making: Tanger’s Stephen Yalof on the New Outlet Experience

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: And welcome to another episode of Retail Refined, a market scale podcast with your host, me, Melissa Gonzalez. Today I'm excited to introduce you to, if you don't know him already, Stephen Yalof, who is president and CEO of Tenger. So if you, um, have shopped in general, I feel like you've been to one of their properties. Uh, but we're gonna have a little bit more of a conversation about that today. Um, but first I wanna introduce you a little bit more to Steven, who's had such a unique vantage point because his career has spanned the brand side, the outlet and landlord side. Now a leadership role of a national open air retail portfolio and little teaser. We're going to talk a little bit about a recent acquisition as part of this conversation. So I'm excited to unpack today all that he has, you know, led and experienced in his career and also his vantage point on retail as a whole. So Stephen, thank you so much for being with us today. Today.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me on.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I gave the highest level introduction of you, which I think barely gives it justice. But as I said, you've had such a great, um, well rounded career, you know, and I think that gives you such an interesting perspective, um, because you have that vantage point being inside brands, being, you know, understanding real estate, understanding properties that, you know, work with hundreds of brands now. So where you sit today, why don't you tell us a little bit more about that background and how that has shaped the perspective that you're bringing as a leader to Tanger today.

Speaker A: Well, you know, Tanger was founded as an outlet company about 45 years ago. It's been a publicly traded company for the last 35 years. Important part of the story because I literally, when I graduated from college, uh, that long ago, I started out in the outlet business leasing outlet centers for a competitor to Tanger. Ironically got to know the Tangers extraordinarily well. During that journey that took me from the landlord side, I then went and worked at the Gap. And I was at the gap in the 90s during the Mickey Drexler, Don Fisher years when we saw explosive growth and was a really exciting time to be there. Uh, very transactional and quite exciting. It was at a time when, um, Gap, which I think is seeing similar popularity today.

Speaker B: I mean, it's having a moment. I'm waiting to have them on the show next.

Speaker A: So, um, from the Gap, I went to Ralph Lauren and I spent the, probably the largest part of my career working at Ralph Lauren. My role there was real, ah, estate I was on the real estate side. So it was once again a transactional role. Starting out in the outlet business and then growing to building stores and restaurants around the world. So quite exciting to see, uh, the Ralph Lauren's explosive growth from that perspective too. And again, much like Gap, Ralph Lauren's having quite a run right now.

Speaker B: Yes, yes.

Speaker A: When I left Ralph Lauren, I went to Simon. Simon had an outlet portfolio. So that was a homecoming for me of sorts. I ran that outlet, the premium outlet portfolio for six years. And then during COVID we, when Mr. Uh, Tanger had decided that he wanted to step into the chairman role and out of the day to day operating role, uh, I got the call and took uh, on this position now as sort of this uh, public company, um, REIT CEO, which uh, has been just an incredible journey bringing the brand out of COVID My first day was April 20, 2020. So we all remember where we were

Speaker B: home in a tent because my daughter's like, oh, let's have sleepovers in the living room.

Speaker A: Every store is closed. Right. So you know, here we are, very interesting time. And you know, the journey out of COVID is really just the great story that is what Tanger has evolved, uh, to become today.

Speaker B: What did be bringing on the brand side teach you that influences your leadership role today?

Speaker A: Customer service. You know, I think that you really have to listen to the customer M. Because the customer wants what the customer wants. And you know what's so interesting, especially in the retail business, is we're all the customer. You know, we all shop. And I remind our team that every time we do a town hall or there's an opportunity to speak to the organization. I'm constantly reminding the 500 people that work for us that you're our customer.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So if you've had a good experience or a bad experience, call it out, Let us know. We know what we do well. It's the things that we're not doing so well. Well, if we knew we weren't doing them so well, we probably would stop doing it. So we want to make sure that everybody who's a customer speaks up. And that really was a critical part of my learning experience at uh, Ralph. Listen to the customer and you can lead the customer, but only so far. You really have to have the products that they want, the price point that they're looking for, and you want to meet that customer where they are. So I think that's one of the key, key messages that I learned while I was on the retailer side. And then we've taken that narrative and brought it over to the shopping center side. Mickey Drexler used to say back in those days too that you constantly need to flow new products into your store in order to get the customer to engage and come back and visit and visit again. And we think the same thing is true for the merchandising mix of a shopping center. You have to have the brands the customer's looking for in order to get them to stay engaged and come back and shop with you with great frequency. We've cracked that code over the last few years and we've seen it in our traffic and our sales numbers.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think that um, well, two things. One, the customer, ah, ever evolving. So what do you and your team do besides you? I'm sure you're walking the locations, recognizing you're a customer yourself, but keeping on the pulse where the way in which the customer is evolving from year to year at uh, the pace of change today versus decades ago is so different. What are the best practices? What do you do to keep ahead of that? And I'm thinking, and I also think there's been a nice evolution of outlets and how especially the gen zers are engaging, you know, with those destinations, especially as entry points into luxury brands. You know, what are you doing to stay on the pulse of that, to keep that fresh and exciting and new and innovative?

Speaker A: Well, you know, as we talk about meeting the customer where they are and the one difference in that timeframe that you referenced is social media.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: You know, I think in order to have a really, um, rounded marketing experience, you know, you need to catch that customer where they are. And it's not necessarily what you have in the center and what's on sale, it's really what can you experience when you come and shop with us. And that that's a really important part to engaging customers today. It's the merchandising mix. Obviously they're going to seek out the destinations that have the brands that they like, but what else can they do when they're there? And I think that's really part of that major evolution that we've seen not only in the outlet business but, but in the full price business too. You know, the outlet business of um, you know, as I shared with you many years ago, when I started out in the outlet business, it was really just a power shopping experience that, you know, the goal was drive 50 miles out of town, go to this spot, buy as much stuff as you can for as little money as you can spend and wow, what a Great day. Um, it's really changed. Demographics have pushed people out into those geographies where the centers were built years ago, uh, making them very relevant and more relevant to a customer. It is a necessarily looking for a, you know, a field trip, but somebody who might have this center in their backyard. And because of that, they're looking not only for the shopping, they want a better food experience, they want an entertainment experience. And in some instances they want services too, like in the form of a dry bar or a group, uh, fitness facility. So we're adding those types of uses to our shopping center to, to cater to that growing breadth of consumer that wants to come visit us. You know, our, our goal is drive traffic because, you know, like, we can't make a customer shop a particular store, but we can bring the customers to the front door and if we bring them there and we can get them to stay there longer, I think we're doing our job.

Speaker B: No, absolutely. And I'm glad you brought in F and B, because I was thinking of those things and as you told those stories, um, back in my day when I was younger, that was the thing. We'd all go to Woodbury Commons. It was like the big outing that we would go to. And then, you know, yes, how many jeans could we get? And now it's different. People are looking, you know, which property has a good, uh, F and B experience. Because we want to make that as part of our trip. That's a key aspect of it. How do you, how do you and your team work closely with brands? Right. When we think about, so I, you know, MG2 or Design Architecture firm, we work with brands who are rolling out, right. And they have those tiers of sometimes they're going to outlets, sometimes they're going to, you know, high end luxury destinations. And they have different, different, um, economics. Right. They have different levels of investment. They're looking, they're willing to make based on those destinations. But as you're working to elevate the outlet experience, you know, how do you think that's bumping up to how brands are thinking about the opportunity of being at these locations?

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, look, the brand relationship with outlet is very unique to the rest of retail. And it is because the brands aren't using their marketing dollars to say, hey, come shop us off price. They spend their marketing dollars to tell the consumer, go to our full price venues. And whether that's their street or whether that's their specialty store where they're selling their products. So it's always been incumbent on the landlord of an outlet shopping center to be the marketing partner for those brands. So that relationship critically important how we reach that customer, whether we uh, engage them in our loyalty program. Now you know, as a, it's loyalty for us is kind of unique because you know, we don't sell a product but what we can do to reward our consumers is give them an additional discount. So for example, you know, grab a, grab a brand, grab a Lululemon, a Nike, a uh, Ralph Lauren, you know, and if we can say to our loyalty customers, hey, on Wednesday, for loyalty customers only, take an extra x percent off at favorite retailer. We're doing a service to our retailers by driving that customer in on perhaps a slower day of the week. But more importantly we're driving them into that store and hoping we're doing our best to help uh, engage and get a customer transaction for that. What they're trading is uh, an additional discount which is value to the consumer obviously. And what we're offering is you know, that, that um, loyalty customer where we're engaged, we have millions and millions of people that are part of that program. We reward them with points and that they can use those points again in some of these stores. Uh, so it's a great relationship between us and the retailer themselves.

Speaker B: Yeah, we've been having a lot of conversations I feel like of late about loyalty programs and the evolution of that and where consumers are finding value, um, and what they're gravitating to and the way they define value is different today also than in the past. What are some of the key differences that you've seen outside of discounting, like other, other metrics, other things that you're rewarding behavior wise that are really attracting people to be part of your loyalty program?

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I guess, um, well in the outlet space, you know, I think that the consumer that's shopping outlet is there for a purpose. It's a very purpose, purpose driven visit. And you know, for us if we can get them to um, to, to spend, to spend more time to visit more stores, you know, obviously that's a, that's a great trade is really that, that's really the important narrative as it relates to that storyline. Um, if we can get people into multiple stores, if we can reward them to visit multiple stores and there are things that we're doing, you know, I mean look, there's only so much a, ah, free Tanger. Do you know, I think when the customer is especially coming in because they're, they're looking to get their favorite brand at um, the best possible price. But, you know, we don't, we don't just use the loyalty to reward customers. We also use it to message customers. We talked earlier about meeting customer where they are, and I think that's a critical piece, particularly as we're engaging a much younger consumer to come and shop with us. Yeah, merchandising. You know, we could talk to a young consumer all day long, but if we don't have the products to sell them when they get into the center, if we're not marketing the brands, you know that the health and wellness category is a really great example of that young consumer. Whether it's Sephora on the highest end or Miss A on the, on the lower end. You know, there are several different brands that play in that, uh, cosmetics space that really engage a consumer at all price points. Uh, Sally Beauty just came out with a new concept called Happy Beauty, you know, and that's a $10 price point. Then you have Ulta Beauty and then you have Sephora. And, you know, what's so interesting is you're going to find that consumer from 5 to 105 in each one of these stores because they're aspirational. They're always going to aspire to get the brands that they want at the price point that they can afford. But when we're able to put all four of those categories or brands in one of our shopping centers, then the novelty is to trade that customer up through, uh, that price point, through that ecosystem.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. It becomes much more of a, in that example, beauty destination for them. And then they might buy one product at Sephora and others, but it really becomes a place they can spend time and you become a reliable partner to them in their beauty journey. So I said at the beginning of the episode that you also, um, have a recent acquisition. So can you tell us a little bit about that? Um, you know, what was the genesis behind it? Why are you excited about the opportunity of it? Um, this is your fourth full price center. It's the center, the town center at Levi's Commons, um, in Ohio. So what attracted you to this and what do you see as the opportunity that you're really excited about?

Speaker A: If you take a look at the geographies where our outlet portfolio resides today, we've gotten to know a lot of these markets extraordinarily well. So the Ohio market where Levis Commons, uh, resides is no exception. Our first foray into full price space was In December of 2023 when we bought, um, a center in Huntsville, Alabama. We Have a very, uh, productive, uh, outlet shopping center in Foley, Alabama. We know the market extraordinarily well and the reason why we felt that we could play in full price space is really because of the journey that we've been on. M sort of, we like to say internally, it probably doesn't relate externally as well, but we say we're lifestyling our outlet centers. And what that means is as the demographics and the gi and the folks are moving closer into the centers where we have our, um, into the markets where we have our centers, um, we feel that that customer is really looking for a more rounded experience. So it's not like I said earlier, it's not just the power shopping experience, it's what else can we do there? What services can you provide me? What food can you provide me? So we've gotten really good at hybriding, for lack of a better expression, a lot of the outlet centers, because as the populations have grown, we're seeing that customer shop us far more frequently. So much so that we got the confidence to go after that full price business, starting with Huntsville and working our way through and now our fourth at Leviss in Ohio. And it has all of the fundamentals that we're looking for. It's got great food, it's got all the brands that play in the outlet space. So we have great relationships with them. When I was at Ralph Lauren, you know, it was one phone call. I did the full price business and I did the outlet business. And I think a lot of the brands operate similarly. So it's, we're really doing business with the same folks internally that we'd be doing anyway. But what makes a Levis or even a, uh, Huntsbill really attractive to us is our ability and the relationships that we have with all these retailers across the country to trade those centers up. So when you buy a shopping center from an operator who was a single center operator, and you bring in a company that has the scale that we have, we have a leasing department of 20 people. We're account based. So now all of a sudden when, um, the person who deals with Gap picks up the phone, there's another property to introduce to that same Gap rep that we've been working with. We know how many stores they want to open in. 26, 27, 28. And we can figure out pretty much how to work, uh, a new store in one of these new centers into their program. So it works really well for how we're set up structurally. But we, we wouldn't engage, nor would we acquire a Center. Unless we thought we could add real value to the community that shops the center and to the retailers that uh, that, that operate in that center.

Speaker B: And remind me the name of the one in Huntsville.

Speaker A: It's called Bridge Street Town center in Huntsville, Alabama.

Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Yeah. It's um, it's interesting because you're creating a different level of ecosystem too. Um, right. In the way in which you're having this holistic possible experience with customers. Right. Depending on these different entry points that they have with brands or um, how are the two learning from each other? Is it at a, at a stage where you can do that?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's interesting as we look at the list of retailers that are in Levistown center, just as an example, there's a dry bar. We don't have a dry bar anywhere in our portfolio and that's a brand that we've been calling on. So now all of a sudden dry bar, which happens, you know, it attracts a higher end customer. It's not a giveaway price point. And we love the synergy of now having that, uh, having them in our portfolio. We now have a seat at the table. They now have an opportunity to see what we do and how we're going to improve the asset and hopefully want to join along for the ride because I've got 40 other shopping centers to bring them to. Similarly, our house furniture, that's another new brand that we now have a seat at the table with. Doesn't mean we haven't been speaking to them all along. And we've got great engagement with the Williams Sonoma brands are in a number of our centers or Restoration Hardware particularly. Their outlet is in our centers. We have a center in Pine Crest which is another full price center that has, sitting on the adjacent property, that Restoration Hardware mansion, which is an amazing draw to our geography. They feed off of our traffic and similarly we feed off of theirs. I think all of that stuff is really important. Those relationships are critical. And at the end of the day it goes back to what we talked about at the beginning of the conversation that about people, it's about community and it's about making sure that the folks that, that live in that geography, um, have a place to go that they feel safe, where they feel confident in the, in the quality of the inventory that that is being sold in that environment. Um, and that we're providing them with not only the stores that they love to shop, but the amenities and the food and the other things. And as we add these new centers into our portfolio, I think uh, you know, we're actually very welcomed by the communities that we're going into because, you know, we've got that great track record.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, how do you feel about how does digital live in all of this? Um, right. The consumer is so different today. I'm sure that there's the messaging that you do for your loyalty programs, et cetera. But um, if you think about uh, the experiences themselves, um, what is the role that digital is playing as you're thinking about the evolution of the consumer?

Speaker A: Well, digital is critically important to how we message our consumer and you know, we play in the space. It's the footprint against which we run our loyalty program. It's, you know, whether it's through our Instagram messaging, our TikTok, uh, messaging, you know, I think that that's critically important to meet that younger consumer where they are. You know, you also. So many brands have an online presence, yet customers actually want to see, feel and try the clothes on. And that gives them an opportunity, it bounces them into our store. So I think that ecosystem really works. It's uh, almost like a flywheel. And what most brands will tell you, and I'm sure you've heard this on your podcast before, but brands that have a physical store, that online business tends to do better in that geography and vice versa. So I think those things work off of one another immediately. Post Covid it was like buy online and pick up in store or um, you know, that, that touchless curbside pickup, you know, I, I think that's still important, but not as important as it was.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: Yeah, but I think from a messaging point of view, I think that's where those digital initiatives are critically important. We've got a very, a, ah, very good digital department. You know, I mentioned earlier that brands, um, rely heavily on an outlet developer to do their marketing for them in the outlet space. Well, we have that muscle, we have that team and we've now could expand that into that full price business, which I think gives us a little bit of an advantage in that space.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, and as you're talking, I'm going back to something else that you said and thinking about merchandising and I'm thinking of messaging through tech and bopus. All the things you're talking about. And do you feel the customer that comes right to outlet? So you have premium now and you have outlet. Are they coming with a mindset of discovery or intention? Because remember when we talked earlier too, right. You would make the day trip and you would think about, oh, I don't really know what's going to be there. Let's see what I discovered today. I'm going to fill my bag. But people spend their time so differently today. So how are you marrying that together and how is merchandising solving for that?

Speaker A: I guess what jumps to mind is the word entertainment. You know, I think people just want to be entertained. They're looking for something to do and you know, whether it's, you know, window shopping that we used to do as kids is now something that a lot of folks do online. You know that window shop happens more online. The dreaming piece of it, uh, you know, is whether it's your Pinterest or the Instagram reels or what. However, however you uh, consume information on brand, a lot of that happens outside the four walls of the shopping center. Yet when you get to the center, what can we do as owners of these properties to keep you engaged, keep things exciting, keep you moving throughout the center? Maybe uh, gamify that experience by having you participate in our loyalty program. So I just, I feel like, and I think that was the first question you asked me. You know, it's like listening to the consumer, Listening to the consumer. I mean that's so critically important. You've got to understand what they want when they get there and what is going to get them to tell their friends to come back. Because that net promoter score is such an important thing to us, we pay very close attention to it. And you know, that's that one question that you ask. How likely are you to share uh, your experience with a friend? And for us we have relatively high net promoter scores for our industry because of that. Um, I think it's just a proof point that what we're doing from an ah, entertainment point of view is really working well.

Speaker B: Especially with the gen zers. Right. Um, they are craving community. I think there's been so much validation, especially in the last couple years coming out about there, craving for in person, real life experiences, well, being, um, wanting to disconnect. So I think the more that you could be nucleus of community and provide that entertainment, things they can do with each other, the um, more they're going to gravitate to your um, your destinations. How are, how does that, how do you partner? Kind of. Do you ever partner with Gen Z, you know, with some of your campaigns? If you do, what does that, what does that look like? How do you curate that? What um, does a good partnership look like?

Speaker A: First of all, the nucleus of community. I mean I'm going to put that in my Pocket. And I'm going to.

Speaker B: Okay, good. Because I wrote down what you said in your lifestyle. I wrote one of your quotes down too.

Speaker A: So, so we traded quotes. But that, that's, that's a great one. We work with, it's so interesting. We work with, um, uh, influencers, local influence, micro influencers. I mean some of the best advertising you can get is when groups of uh, shoppers, younger shoppers come to your center and then they video themselves with their haul and these great haul videos, which I've been known to watch online where I understand where people are shopping, what brands are looking for. The most recent, um, and we're actually now working very closely with this brand. But I don't know if you've heard of La La Land Coffee.

Speaker B: Oh, no.

Speaker A: A West coast based company that's now starting to move a little bit. Move East La La Land. It's like a highly Instagrammable moment for people that are buying coffee. But it's really a very exciting coffee bar experience. More than just coffee. But it's, it's just, it's. You walk in, there's a chandelier hanging in the middle of the store. I mean it's just, it's a beautiful fighting. It's uh. We walk into a lot of coffee shops here in New York City and they're dark and they're moody and they're cool and the baristas are kind of hip and you. La La Land is like almost like if Disneyland had a coffee shop. And it's really quite, it's spectacular. The lines are just amazing. The entertainment is great. The engagement between the folks behind the counter and the consumers because most of them, ah, you have to wait online because obviously, uh, it's such a popular spot. I just, the energy was just unbelievable. It was palpable. In fact, I went and visited one of their stores in Arizona and I found myself sitting in the store for 30 minutes because it was just such an entertaining experience. It's those types of brands that are your best advertising because if you can bring those brands into your centers, they're bringing in their community, they're bringing in their customer base. It just does so much to bringing in that younger consumer that's looking for that high energy interaction that we're trying to provide them when they come and they shop with us.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as you're talking about that, I'm seeing so many different. I mean, I love all the brand extensions that are happening into FMC BE too. Like Coach obviously has been out there killing it great example, right. With all their coffee shops and really integrated into retail. And I was in Shanghai a year or two ago when they first started these and just watching the lines of people just to take their picture in front of Coach Coffee, like that was.

Speaker A: Well, because they're doing something so interesting. It's not just a cup of coffee, but it's a, it's an experience. You know, they're selling a piece of cake that looks like a Coach bag. You know, it's the things that you can get in that store that you can't get anywhere else. And that's a very sort of Asian concept, is sort of that scarcity, you know, that the stores, you know, when I was at the Gap, the key was to be at the interstate, the best intersection that you could be above the subway in New York City, where the most amount of people are walking in front of your storefront every day. You know, when I was doing, uh, Ralph Lauren deals in Japan, you know, it was where can you find that sneaky back road where you could put the store? Because it made it feel really scarce and there was something about the coolness factor of having to go out and actually seek and find that store. So those are two ends of the spectrum. It's just, that's what makes retail so amazing and so exciting is that there's so many different ways that people can shop, brand, uh, or experience retail. That's what gets me fired up to come to work every day.

Speaker B: I mean, your passion is evident. I love it. I feel like I can talk to you for so much longer than this episode. Uh, and anybody who's listening, I'm sure feels the same way. Um, but I think that the evolution of the consumer and the span that you're talking about, right? Some, some are driven by, you know, um, discovery, some come with intention, all of these things and really being able to understand that and create destination destinations that can like flex in that way to be able to satisfy those different journeys, those different customers. Um, when a brand themselves is evaluating their physical expansion today, right. We talked about some of the things that, you know, you're doing at the helm at Tanger. You're thinking about the curation and the merchandising of the space and value, um, you know, loyalty programs and, and value and stuff like that. But what makes an outlet, an open air center, attractive? Like what should a brand be thinking about? What are the kind of metrics that uh, should be top of mind for them when they're deciding, you know, whether this is right for Their portfolio.

Speaker A: Oh my gosh. So let me put my retailer, real

Speaker B: estate, because you've been on both sides

Speaker A: so on for a second. You know, I mean look, you go back to the Gap. The Gap was looking for something completely different than Ralph Lauren was. You know, and I, that, that example that I just gave you. But I think if you look at one of our shopping centers and if you go back to the narrative of let's listen to the consumer and what does the consumer want? The first thing that brands are looking for is what is the shopping center in the marketplace where the most customers are coming, where can I put my product in front of the most amount of qualified people who are understand my price point, understand what I'm selling and whether it's an aspirational customer. In the case of an outlet center, meaning they want a low entry level price point to brands that seem almost unreachable to them or in our full price business, where can I get that product that I'm looking for? You know, I think that that's something that we're extraordinarily conscious of. You know, how do we create the environments where the customer wants to go? An outlet experience is a high, low experience. You know, there, there's price points, you know, the coach price points. Um, although the entry level might be, might be much lower than you'll see in their full price business, there's still some expensive items in that store and it's up to the service, uh, representatives inside those stores to trade that customer up and get them to buy those higher priced items. But for us, I think it's important to bring in a customer, uh, or a merchandising mix that speaks to a low, speaks to a high. So we can get everybody in between. So that when that retailer comes to visit your property, the first thing they see is how hard it is for them to get a space in your parking lot. M. You know, sometimes that, that can cause a little frustration. But I know when I was a retailer I got excited by that because I want to be where the most shoppers are, where the customers are, where people are going to spend their time, and whether I'm a new brand and I'm putting my product in front of customers who um, don't quite know me yet, I'll get multiple impressions if I go to the shopping center where I know that customer is coming back with frequency. And that's what the food and beverage business is doing for us.

Speaker B: The curation around the food and beverage is so critical for sure and that you're you know, you're, you can span, I'm guessing, you know, different generations and families too. As you're thinking about how you're curating that F and B experience 100%, you

Speaker A: know, whether it's grab and go, you know, the pretzel at Auntie Ann's, or if it's a sit down, uh, experience at one of Sam Fox's restaurants, like, uh, North Italia, you know, we run the gamut. That same high, low exists in the centers because, you know, different people are uh, drawn to different price point, different experience and what they're looking for from those, uh, from those destinations.

Speaker B: Well, I'm glad that you have great F and B experiences. I do. I will say overall, when I've shopped at most outlets that has been a gap is like, you know, I mean, maybe there's a shake shack, which is pretty good, but there's not. You don't have that sit down done. And you need stamina when you're having those big shopping hauls. So I need those ranks in between.

Speaker A: I agree.

Speaker B: Just as we think about the future before we wrap up, you're well positioned, right? Not just as an outlet operator, but a broader shift towards open air, lifestyle oriented retail environments. Um, you know, you, you, I think that's a destination. You know, you think of yourself as tourist destinations, right? In vibrant markets. So how do you think of the future? Right. You just talked about a recent acquisition. Um, as openehr continues to gain momentum, what do you think the consumers are going to be responding to? As you think about the future, what does the next two to five years look like for you? What makes you excited?

Speaker A: The consumer is getting younger and younger and younger and you know, it's interesting because I just had a similar conversation and um, let's use Abercrombie and Fitch for this talking point because I think this speaks.

Speaker B: I mean you're just bringing up all the brands that are having moments again.

Speaker A: Well, but, but let's, so let's go back 15 years ago with Abercrombie and Fitch, which was a much different company than it is today from a product and from a store experience point of view. Fifteen years ago it was a young consumer that was looking for that clubby experience and they were wearing sort of a uniform.

Speaker B: Hm.

Speaker A: That consumer has evolved and now that customer. But Abercrombie and Fitch, it's not a different person, it's just a more grown up person. It's that person grown up. They love Abercrombie and Fitch. It was their uniform and now all of a sudden that brand grew up with their consumer and they're having a moment right now because that consumer is looking for a brand they know, the heritage they trust, but in a new container that speaks more to where they are today in their lives. And I just feel like that's a great metaphor for the future of shopping. If you can follow journey like that. If you could say here's what our customer looks like today and what are they evolving? What is that grown up customer going to be and how do we make sure that we get. We're constantly bringing in that younger consumer and reinventing, um, our story and our message and our purpose to speak to a younger consumer. We're going to get that consumer to grow up with us, stay with us, understand the heritage of what it is we're trying to bring from a shopping center point of view. And I think that we'll continue to evolve as we watch the customer evolve. And you know, obviously the centers that are most successful are the ones that stay a step or two ahead. Well, you know, we're constantly out in the marketplace, whether it's new brands and department stores, new brands online, we're speaking to them, we're engaging them and we have a strategy, a pop up strategy. I know it's a little bit more of a complicated answer to a very simple question. If you think about some of the techniques and tactics that we're using in order to um, get ahead of things like this. Uh, we have a pop up strategy. Basically we'll say to a brand, um, we saw you in a department store, we know you don't have a full retail organization in order to go in house and build a store. But why don't you try popping up and see if it works. And if it does, then maybe there's a future in full price retail and we can bring you into a store and we, we have a whole program where we do it across our portfolio and we've seen some great success stories. Uh, brands like Vineyard vine started out popping up before they became a full price store. Ugg, uh, popped up before they became full price stores. Even Lululemon, especially in the outlets. Lululemon will pop up before they'll go full price too because they want to sort of try before they buy. We do that because we want to make sure that a brand's going to be successful and they're going to grow properly with us as opposed to some of the brands. It just doesn't work. And if it doesn't work, let' out when it's low stakes.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. I think it's so important for, to test on both sides. I mean look, I started in the industry, I wrote the book the Pop up Paradigm, so I am all, all for that as an opportunity to test and learn together and make sure you're also understanding if it was successful, what about it made it successful. So ideally that's also informing how they end up showing up on your property when they become a tenant.

Speaker A: Definitely.

Speaker B: So two things before we go. One on the brand side and then one on the landlord developer side. So for brands listening, what, um, if you left them with one thing that they should be thinking about as they plan their next phase of physical retail growth, what would that be?

Speaker A: Shoot me an email sya Tanger and I'm happy to send uh, I'm happy to talk to you about our shopping centers and talk uh, to you about the strategy of outlet and full price and, and how we can be part of that uh, of that retailer journey. Look, I believe in physical retail. I've been in physical retail my entire career. I go back, my, my, my dad was an executive at Macy's when I, you know, when I was growing up. So I've got sort of retail has been in my heritage my entire life. It's here to stay. Amazon, when they first came on the scene there was a lot of discussion. They had a m, they had a moment. But I think what we've learned is that balance between online and physical are so critically important to the success of brand that um, a brand that might be digitally native, I hope they will give us the opportunity to show them um, why that full price experience is such an important one for their business to grow.

Speaker B: Well, I love that you organically answered the second question which was when you think about the future of retail, what gives you the most optimism? Um, but I think you've answered it in talking about physical and community and all that being here to stay. And I, I love this conversation. Um, you know it's always great to have these reminders, right, that physical retail, um, it's not, it's not physical versus digital. It's going to be how they come together. And I think that, that it's validated over and over again that people want to come, they want to discover and they want to find value and they want to find convenience and connection in places that give them a reason to stay. And you've exemplified um, so many different ways that you're doing that at your properties and Tanger, both at the outlet side. And then now, as you're starting to acquire more of those premium destinations. So, um, thank you so much for spending the time talking with us about it and sharing your information. So you might be getting a bunch of emails, but this is. You put it out there. So if people have questions to come contact you, we're.

Speaker A: That's the business that we're in.

Speaker B: No, I love the conversation. I love your passion. It comes through the whole conversation. Um, so. And excited to see how this ecosystem continues to come together, you know, as you continue to roll out, you know, the strategy that you have being both on the premium side, um, and on the outlet side. So, thank you so much for spending the time with us today.

Speaker A: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to your, uh, to your audience.