Employer branding that actually drives hiring results with Daniel Callaghan

Speaker A: Welcome to Radically Transparent, the number one podcast for the modern day marketer. Presented by Octopost, the only social media and employee advocacy Solution architected for B2B. Each episode shines a light on the inner workings of B2B leadership, including what keeps successful CEOs, CMOs and VPs up at night professionally. The conversations are real, raw and authentic, all while revealing the unfiltered, not so known truths of, uh, today's most interesting marketers. Introducing your host, Jennifer Gutman.

Speaker B: Hello, world. My next guest is someone who cares deeply about equality, equity, empathy and mental well being. He believes storytelling has the power to change the world. Not the polished version, but the honest one. The kind that builds understanding, trust and real human connection. Passionate about working with people and shining a light on the incredible humans behind brands. Because businesses do not build culture, people do, let's face it. So please join me in welcoming Daniel Callahan to the show. Daniel, are you ready to get Radically Transparent with me?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah, let's get into it.

Speaker B: I love it. I've actually been counting down until this episode because there's nothing more fascinating to me than employer brand recruitment marketing, especially, especially in the modern day digital landscape. It just, um, my mind is constantly turning how powerful social media, employer brand, all things marketing can be when combined together. But knowing that, I've got to ask you, right, especially in 2026, what's keeping you up at night professionally right now?

Speaker C: I think it's all of the things that are outside of my control. So. So, um, people know your job title as an employer brand manager, but there are so many things that affect the employer brand. You know, you could have a poor interview, your recruiter could not be responding to you well enough, your hiring manager, um, might not be the best. Um, so all of those things impact employer brand and I don't get a say in any of those things really. So I'm just trusting and hoping that my colleagues and teammates are doing the best job possible. But, um, yeah, it's, it's just a fascinating world. Um, depending on who you speak to, employer brand can meet different things for different people. So, um, you know, having to constantly remind people kind of what I actually do, what's in my control, and, and emphasizing to other people, you know, the power that they have and the impact that they have on, on our employer brand as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And we're going to get into the definition soon of employer brand. Um, and I can imagine I got asked like, do you sleep at all? Because everything you mentioned, right, we have to control the Controllables. And I feel in our field, sometimes that's a little bit rough. Uh, so I know that you're over at payoneer, which is a great brand, and if you, if anyone listening in. Right. Go ahead, head over to Payoneer, LinkedIn, take a look what they're doing. Really cool stuff. Um, but I've got to hear from the source, right? What exactly is payoneer for those listening, and what's your mission?

Speaker C: Yeah, so we're a global payment platform in a nutshell. And, um, our mission is to connect the world's underserved businesses throughout to a rising global economy. Um, there's so much work happening at payoneer right now. Like the, the stuff that our kind of product teams are working on, on our tech teams are working on. It's really exciting. So it's a really interesting, uh, company to be part of right now. And especially with everything kind of going on in the world, there's just so much opportunity for us to kind of keep growing up. Market.

Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Now, what's interesting to me about payoneer, right, it's a, uh, really fascinating, fascinating brand. You guys are doing really interesting things. But when you talk about, you know, finance, fintech, payment services. Right, okay. How, how cool could that be to work there? But you guys make it look so fun and everybody wants to be part of this brand. So I, I'm going to start with a basic question because as you mentioned, right. What keeps you up at night is that employer brand in many different places, to many different people, can mean many different things. How do you personally define employer brand

Speaker C: in a nutshell? The way that I would describe it is our employer brand should, should answer the question, why should someone join your company and stay there and not work somewhere else? In a nutshell, it's as simple as that. Um, you know, how, how can we effectively communicate that in the best way possible? Um, and again, a lot of people think employer brand is outward facing, you know, trying to get candidates come and join your company. But actually it's also trying to keep the employees that you have, you know, um, happy and motivated and working on complex problems and all of that stuff as well. So, um, in a nutshell, that's how I try and phrase it.

Speaker B: Yeah, listen, I like simple things and I think that's a really simple way to explain it. And I think the retention piece is a huge piece because I know from a lot of colleagues I speak to about employer brand, it's exactly what you shared. People think, oh, okay. Like how do we get new CAT candidates into the candidate funnel? Or how do we portray ourselves as a great place to work? But keeping great talent is also a huge part of that puzzle. So with that being said, um, keeping great talent, attracting great talent, um, and really portraying to the world what it's like to work inside of those walls of payoneer. In your opinion, how does employer brand influence, if at all, the corporate brand? Right, because marketing and influence, recruitment, uh, marketing, you're hand in hand in a lot of things and vice versa. How do you think that corporate brand ends up influencing employer brand?

Speaker C: It's so interesting because I, uh, worked in marketing, kind uh, of commercial product marketing before I moved into employer branding. And, um, I've got that kind of background and kind of foundation of marketing branding skills. So when you kind of bring that into employer branding, it's really interesting. What I found super critical in my role is just to make sure that, you know, you're forming really great relationships with the brand team and the marketing team and know that you're kind of working with each other and not against each other. My thing is, is, you know, having a core differentiation between what is the commercial brand and, um, what is the employer brand. So, you know, you want them to look more or less the same, but, you know, if someone was scrolling through your LinkedIn page, would they be able to tell the difference between us selling a product or us promoting a role? And I think that's really important. So, you know, um, yeah, just having it be seamless, but having a really distinct, uh, differentiation is kind of what I would say to that point. And again, it's not easy. Um, you know, it can be really tricky. And I think for me and my role at payoneer at the moment, it's just a constant evolution because, you know, if you're wanting to speak to people globally about payoneer, that's one thing. But then if you want to, you know, really have targeted messaging and speak to people, specifically in China or in India or in America, you know, different words and different visuals, uh, can mean different, very different things in different places. Just making sure that you get that correct is also super important as well.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I love that you come from a marketing background because in my experience, um, you're either coming from an HR background that takes on employer brand, or you have this dynamic, incredible background in marketing, um, coming over into the, the dark side of you, if you will, of hr. Um, but with this great debate, and I hear this all the time, and I don't know if there's a right answer, maybe you could shed some light. But who do you think should actually own employer brand and an organization? Should it be marketing? Should it be hr? Should it be some other department that maybe is a, is, is a, is a feature, uh, of its own? How should it be operationalized?

Speaker C: It's so interesting because I've worked in a kind of brand marketing function as an employer brand person. I've worked in HR as the employer brand marketing person. I think for ease of relationships and staying up to date with information, um, working in the HR team is definitely better, um, based on my experience because again, you're just kind of on the ground floor. You can share your knowledge, you can share your insights. A lot of people in the HR don't know, typically you know a lot about the marketing and brand world. So there's really great place to kind of educate people and influence people there, which is really, really great. And um, you know, when you're in the marketing world, sure you can pick up kind of information and tricks from, from different people on things that you might not have known, but you can still do that in the HR world. I actually am kind of in the middle of kind of writing a blog around the fact that I think the employer brand role will soon m be sitting in the office of the CEO. Uh, because I think it's just getting so big and so massive. How that would actually translate in kind of a business setting, I don't know. But uh, I think again, working with leaders, um, in the business and kind of explaining to them just how important their visibility and what they're communicating and what they're saying on their channels and how much that can influence people to come and join your company is such a powerful thing as well. Um, so, yeah, and again, um,

Speaker B: I

Speaker C: think the educational piece for people in kind of HR world is just so impactful because again, I'm of the opinion that if you don't know and you don't know and you can just become, be blissfully naive to stuff. So even communicating really basic things about how a link should appear in an email, um, from an accessibility point of view can just have such an impact on people's, um, perceptions and then awareness and then you don't know who they're going to share that with as well. So I enjoy seeing in the HR space. Um, it's not to say that it can't work in, in the marketing space. I don't want to create any enemies. Um, yeah, I definitely see this role kind of transitioning into like the office of the CEO in the next couple of years for sure.

Speaker B: I think that's really interesting. When you have that blog published, please do share. Uh, we definitely want to read it and I'll make sure to link it back into the show notes, uh, once it is live. So anyone listening in? Daniel, we want to know your insights. So I'm going to ask a difficult question. I think it's difficult because any true marketer knows that marketing, it's an art, a little bit of science, but employer branding, mostly marketing spin, or do you think it actually really reflects the reality inside of a company?

Speaker C: It's so tricky because again you can be someone working um, in maybe a more junior role in India or you could be someone sitting in a more senior role in, in New York. And you know those differences are going to be so different. I think what's really important is like the culture aspect, uh, culture aspect and the kind of the training and the leadership and development and how much that can have an impact. I've always, I've always said that realistically it's your manager who will have a real impact on whether or not you enjoy your role. It doesn't mean that the company can't be working exciting things and going really great places. But really realistically your, your direct manager is going to have such an influence on how happy you are, how challenged you are, how motivated you are. And I fortunately have a very great uh, manager. And um, I know that there are other great managers in payoneer as well. And again for me it's finding people who maybe um, need just a reminder of just that personal kind of touch and how just being kind to people can just have a massive, massive impact. Um, but that being said, you know, people um, have got so much opportunity now. People are so much more aware of the different companies that they could work for, the different roles that they can uh, end up in. I often do kind of like um, talks with uh, people in school or high school and I say to them, you know, when I was your age, a social media manager wasn't a thing. Um, so you know, when you think about people who are like 16, 16 years old now with the evolution of AI and everything else that's kind of going on in the world, what other roles will exist in kind of 10 years time? Um, but it is fascinating and again, one of my kind of core ROIs, I suppose from a marketing perspective is, you know, um, really trying to nail down the source of the applicant and, and where, where were the hires that we made. Where did they come from? Because then, you know, if you're spending x amount on LinkedIn or x amount on your careers website, or X amount on, um, referral, uh, referral budget, then you can really track down what source is working effectively and which aren't, and then you can kind of tweak and adjust kind of like where you put your budget. But that human storytelling piece is just so important. And we're a global company. We've just relaunched our careers website. We've got videos from tons of people from around the world just to try and give a bit of a flavor of kind of what it is like to work in different places within payoneers. So not everyone's sharing the exact same experience with the exact same messaging. You know, we really kind of diversify that messaging so it hits where it's applicable. And, um, yeah, it's just got. There's just so much to it and there's so much you can explain. And so how much impact just one person posting on LinkedIn. And this is something that I do at most companies that I've worked with already in is, you know, communicating to employees, leaders that, you know, just a simple post of theirs on LinkedIn and who then might see that post as a repercussion of one of their colleagues liking it, and then that extends into that person's, uh, feed or the algorithm sends it to a different part of the world, has such an impact, and it's how every single person in the company has such a massive kind of impact on the employer brand. Um, and again, there are things that are measurable. You know, you can see how many people have come to your careers website, how many people have clicked apply on, on your jobs and all the rest of it. But I call it almost like the employer brand dust. The stuff that people don't see that kind of to be super cheesy. The magic that kind of happens when, you know, someone says to their friend, oh, I've just got a new job at this company called payoneer and they're hiring. I think you'd be really great fit for it, you know, if that person, if that person didn't, um, refer them and they just came through on their own. Like they searched payoneer and came through as a, as a, an applicant from the careers website. Or we'll never know that that conversation happened, but it probably did. But from a tracking perspective, they're now just come through as like, you know, they saw the job on LinkedIn and they saw the job on the Careers website. But we don't know that kind of magic that happened behind the scenes. Um, I kind of gone off piece a bit there, and I have to ask you.

Speaker B: No, listen, it actually leads nicely into my next question and I'll. I totally agree with you. And it's not just recruitment marketing. I feel these days. I feel with AI and all of these different ways, we know that attribution is a bit messy. Like there's. We used to always, as marketers, be after, okay, where did this lead come from? Or, you know, where did this person come from? And we kind of basically tracked it back, but I think today it's a much, much, much more challenging journey. So I definitely agree with you about the magic, but it does lead me right to the next. My next question, because what. What do we know about, you know, we know about buying behavior. We know in general people behavior today that people trust people more than logos, more than brands. And we see that with.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: If you look at the number of, let's say, followers or engagements you have on your corporate page versus what your employees are able to get when they share, you know, as you mentioned. Right. That specific content, that. The content coming from their own voice. So I wanted to ask you, Daniel, what do you think the role of employee advocacy plays in shaping employer brand. And how do you balance. Right, because I know you have a pretty strong, um, employee advocacy program in place. How do you balance or work with the corporate team, the brand team, the marketing team, like all the different content that needs to go up on the board? Where do you fit in to that program? And what do you think the role of advocacy plays? And, and I'll throw in another question. We can just have a deep dive in it. Right, but like, why should HR professionals care about employee advocacy?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's. It's so important. And I run like a, uh, kind of LinkedIn rock your profile workshop. And I know that LinkedIn can either be something that people love or some people find incredibly cringe these days. I love all the memes on, like, Instagram and Facebook about how LinkedIn is, you know, this crazy place at the moment. But, um, I work with, um, some fantastic colleagues in the corporate team and the social media team. We're all on the same page that, you know, people, uh, employees need to be leveraging their LinkedIn profiles a lot more, whether it be for sales or whether it be for just, you know, brand awareness or whether it be for employer brand purposes as well. And again, I'll stress to people until I'm absolutely Blue in the face like what you put into LinkedIn or your social channels, you will get out of it. And if you're not putting anything into it, don't expect just posting once you'll get a ton of engagement um, or you know it'll lead to a monumental things. It's you know, how can you can just be kind of really consistent in engaging on the platform or posting you know weekly or bi weekly on the platform. Um, it's so, so important. There are just so many stories that I've heard where you know people have done something or posted something on LinkedIn and that's manifested into something else. So you know, from a personal perspective I think I was at Thompson Reuters at the time and we created this mental health uh, kind of awareness video and someone um, who was part of the video shared it onto their uh, LinkedIn profile. One of their former colleagues saw it when she was talking about something. Um, it triggered something in her that made her think of her husband and their husband then ended up actually getting kind of um, support with his anxiety as a, as a kind of direct wow kind of response from that video. You know so that's kind of like the more human aspect but then you know from, from the um, the kind of commercial and corporate aspect as well. You know selling on LinkedIn is massive. Recruiting people on LinkedIn is, is massive and sometimes you just, I, you need to kind of be on the platform engaging and doing what you can there. Uh, I keep sharing to sharing with people all the time as you, it's that ah, um, how they kind of as we know the algorithm works on LinkedIn it's you know, it's trying to uh, connect you with people with like minded interests and people who are in the same fields and so you're seeing the same content and just by liking a post, if you scroll through LinkedIn so often you'll see that this post was liked by this person or this post was shared by this person and many times you're you know a second or third degree connection with them. So it's super, super important. And, and um, I get for some people that you know, if you're, if you're introverted or a bit more shy or less kind of social media savvy, how intimidating kind of posting things and kind of being present on the platform can, can be. So I truly understand that. So I always say don't do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. But I really want to educate people on the power that's kind of within their hands and to make a difference in any aspect of the business, whether that's recruiting, whether that's selling, whether it's general brand awareness, um, but also for your own, for your own personal brand as well. Right. Um, it's so important I think these days to ensure that you have kind of an up to date and engaged LinkedIn profile. I think if I was recruiting someone and I had the exact same CVs on my desk, but I went to one and someone was really, uh, active on LinkedIn, the other person, um, wasn't so active. I'd probably lean towards the person who had more of a engaging LinkedIn presence because that's just an, an extra kind of string on their bow that could be really, really powerful for, for kind of what, what their role would entail and the fact that they kind of get it already, I don't have to educate them on it. Um, I'm not saying that would be the kind of critical factor, but it definitely made me think about it. And um, as I said, as I said before earlier in the podcast, like if you don't know, you don't know. And you know, there are so many things I don't know. There are so many. Um, I've got three little brothers, one who's 25 and one who's 19 and one who's even younger. And they're constantly telling me about these kind of influencers on YouTube or other social media platforms. I'm just like, I'm so, I'm so old, I'm so out of that world now. But I always listen to them really intently because I'm just like, I want to know who it is that they're listening to. Because if my younger brother's 25 in Payoneer, we could be recruiting people who are his age. So yeah, I want to know kind of who he's listening to. The platform is on like, can we explore that payoneer to go onto those platforms if we're not on them already? Um, it's just such employee advocacy is such, such a powerful tool. And again, as you mentioned, people will buy from people. I, that's actually one of the things that I say when I kind of presenting, you know, why people should have a more engaged LinkedIn profile or more engaged social media presence is just that people are becoming so much, um, I don't know, untrusting of brands. You know, don't, don't really care to hear from brands. They want to hear from people. Um, and as I alluded to earlier, you know, people want to Hear from the leadership. People want to hear from the CEO and the CTO and the uh, chief people Officer and all of that sort of stuff. They want to know kind of what they're like as people. Is that will probably be an indication as to kind of what the company might be like. And it's so easy for someone in my role to kind of, you know, um, make something look really attractive and really pretty. But if you're hearing information from the horse's mouth, it, it just translates in such a different way. A really perfect, perfect example is International Women's Day was, was last weekend. And um, I'm a real advocate for making sure that we have kind of content go out onto our, onto our company profiles, which it did. And then someone reached out to me, I think they were from, um, our India team, to say that they wanted to do a post and asked if it could be from our corporate channel. I said, we've already done a post from our corporate channel, but I really encourage you to post this from your own channel. And I said, I, I bet you any money your post will get more engagement than the corporate posted. They posted it, um, last Monday or Tuesday I think it was. And sure enough it got more engagement than, than the corporate profile did. And they were really astounded. And again, for me, so often it's that proof in the pudding. And showing people like you doing this thing has more impact. And I think when they see that, um, it's, it's really impactful. And I say to them, just because you post something and it gets lots of engagement, don't expect it the next time. Um, because again, I see it so often. So people post something, you get a lot of engagement, they'll post something else, it doesn't. And I'll say to them all the time, like, I can't tell you how many posts that I've spent literally hours curating a post, whether that be a video or I'm trying to word something really, um, perfectly. And then I post it and it gets like 20 likes. Um, and then I have like a really random thought or I think about this really stupid meme that made me laugh and I'll post it and it gets like a ton of engagement. And I'm just like, I don't know anymore. I'm just gonna continue to do what I'm doing. I'm going to continue to post this variety of stuff. And you know, some things work and some things don't. And again, sometimes it's the luck of the draw and sometimes you're just on a, on a hot streak and you're doing really well. But it's that uh, it's that consistency that I keep telling people, you know, I've got a few, a few kind of friends who are kind of semi TikTok famous and when I ask them about it they just go. All I did was post every day for a year and then something hit and now I'm in this position where I'm getting brand deals or going on TV and all the rest of it. So it's just like I don't have that commitment and the energy to do what they do the wave now. But um, I'm really happy for them. But I think again that consistency part is key and again making it easy for people to post if they're not comfortable posting is super important and just kind of giving people those foundational skills. And also I make myself available. I wouldn't say 247 because I don't want 247 but any minute of the day that I'm working, I always say to someone if you want to post something and you're not sure, message me on teams and like work with me until you're comfortable to do it on your own. Like I'm here to kind of support you and guide you through the process and, and um, I know how important it is and that's why I spend so much time kind of on that piece with people.

Speaker B: I love that I couldn't agree with everything you more than what you just said and especially, especially when you know, you put in your blood, sweat and tears into writing what you think is going to be, you know, this viral incredible post like one, like so have been there. Um, but I love that but it actually you said something that really stuck with me and it. And I want to kind of say stop on a moment right when they see it's uh, when they see it's, it's more impactful. And I, I think that's so radically transparent if you will into how employee advocacy works. But I want to transfer that over to employer brand for a moment because if we think as marketers right, marketing is hard to measure and prove our worth off of marketing island to the executive team that you know, we deserve our jobs. How on earth uh, do you measure employer brand in a way that act ah. That actually leadership sees the impact and cares about. What are you looking at? How are you measuring this?

Speaker C: Yeah, um, it's so funny. I remember when I kind of became a social media manager back in. I think it's 2017 or 2018. I say this to everyone. The hardest thing I've ever had to do is explain kind of prove ROI of social media to a board of stakeholders. And having to kind of explain what a retweet was at the time, I think was incredibly tricky. Um, it is hard, it is challenging. But, you know, for me, I kind of default to my foundations with, with marketing, you know, how many career website visits are we getting? You know, where are those visits coming from? Are they coming from the places where we've got the highest number of roles that we're, we're recruiting for in the company? Um, you know, how many views is our LinkedIn profile got this week? How much engagement are we getting on our LinkedIn profile? And again, we're fortunate enough to have kind of this level of data now. It's just kind of almost translating it in a way that's easier to kind of, um, instantly download for me is, you know, how many applications did we get from different platforms? You know, how many hires did we get from different platforms? You know, it's, it's so interesting because you can get a ton of applications from a platform. I don't want to name any just to, you know, accidentally discredit someone that doesn't deserve it. But, you know, say if we got a ton of applications from company. I was going to say X then, but that exists. If we've got a ton of, uh, applications from company A, um, and we've got a ton of applications from company B, but actually when you look at the data, you know, you won't make any hires from company A. You know, it's. Well, is, is there an issue with that, uh, funnel? Is the quality of the candidate not great from that funnel? Are we not treating the candidates with the same, um, kind of, uh, fairness, I suppose, during the interview process? Um, is there a stigma attached to that application from that place? There could be multiple things, um, in that instance, but, you know, you could have a, you could have a company that you're working with or a partner that you're working with, where you get, you know, 10 applications, but they're all hires. And it's like, wow, how can we do more in that space? And again, trying to kind of really use data to show people, like the impact that we're having, whether that's on brand awareness, whether that's on application numbers, whether that's, we've bought a tool for, I don't know, 50 grand, and we can already prove that, you know, within six months. You know, the ROI on that tool has already been recovered because we had these goals and things in mind. And um, again, tracking thing is super important. I've got, again as I mentioned before, I've got a great team of social media, um, who work in social media and you know, they're tracking everything and we can see the numbers when people click on a post from employee advocacy versus the posts that have gone out from LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, X, all of those, all of those social channels and every single time, you don't even have to look at the numbers. It will always be employee advocacy. Employee advocacy kind of tracking links, uh, are through the roof and the other ones are just quite, quite low, quite honestly. And I don't think we're unique in, in having that kind of data set. I think that you know, any company will have exactly the similar data trends, but it's just if people know it and tap into it and then try and improve the process. Um, yes, so you can see that more transparent data and um.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I, I agree and I like how you frame that.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: It's not an either or. It's not like, okay, employee advocacy and personal links are bringing in so many more engagements and you know, applications and referrals. Let's get rid of the corporate side or let's get rid of, you know, the other stuff. But I think as you mentioned being aware of that, you can then drive a proper strategy, balancing both, knowing what to expect from both. And I think that's a really important shout out now from that. Right. So talking about how to measure it, uh, agree with all of it. Do you think that employer brand plays a role in improving business outcomes as well? Or, or do you think it's mostly correlation?

Speaker C: I think, I think, I really think it could go hand in hand. Um, again, people buy from people. Um, if someone is working in sales and hasn't got an up to date LinkedIn profile, isn't leveraging their profile in a different way. That can be really tricky. Um, I know that if I post about um, career opportunities, a payoneer or any company that I've worked at that'll get a certain number of clicks. If I post about my mental health journey or something to do with my family or celebrating a day like International Women's Day, that's just happened, um, I will get so much more engagement by doing those kind of human personal posts than I will a post about business. And again, that can be about recruiting, that could be about selling, but I think it's really important that you have a combination of both. And again, as I said before, I fully appreciate that people won't want to kind of share their personal lives online. And I'm not asking people to, to do that at all. But I will say is that uh, the more human and personal your content is, that will typically get a lot more emotional engagement than it would otherwise. And it's just how you balance that. And what I often say to people is maybe do a personal post and then do a, and then do a sales post and then do a personal post and then do a sales post. Um, but all of those personal posts could be employer brand related. It could be how you've got a really work, really good work life balance. And because of your work life balance, she was able to go and keep, uh, pick your kids up from school, um, that day and that then share shows that you've got an employer that you know, understands family and how important that is. And then you can do a sales post and then you can go and do a post about the fact that you attended this event at work that was celebrating Black History Month or International Women's Day or Pride or whatever it might be. And then the next post is a sales one. That is not, it's not, ah, kind of leveraging those emotional posts to then sell something. I want to make that perfectly clear because I think I, I wouldn't want people to do personal posts if it was just for the purpose of selling. Yeah, again, it's that, it's that, it's that, it's that balance and the um, what's the word I'm looking for? The beautiful harmony I, I suppose of, you know, sharing a bit of yourself online, sharing some personal experiences, show, you know, um, be vulnerable, I suppose, show how tricky it can be. You know, I, I could do a post of that today about how my kid woke me up at 4, ah, 5:45. And then I've been awake that entire time and now I'm doing all kind of nine, 10 hours at work, um, and how tricky that can be. And then, I don't know, just be relatable and just be, you know, mindful, um, that there are other parents or other, other carers who are kind of going through the same situation that you are and showing other people that they're kind of not, they're not alone, I suppose. Um, but again, as I said, I think it can, I think it can be both. I can, I think it could be, um, leveraging employer brand to then move into selling something or promoting something. Even a really small thing. As I say to people all the time, there's a verification, um, shield bar thing that you can get on your profile now that shows that you work at work at a company. I'm so distrusting of any kind of cold call I get or cold email I get. Ah, even the other day, um, I actually had an email from someone, uh, claiming to be a recruiter from a different company and I just happened to know this person on LinkedIn. So I went, this looks a bit suspect. This isn't you, is it? And he was like, no, sadly not. I've raised it to RIT team and all the rest of it. So, you know, just showing that you have a verified profile on LinkedIn and that's something that I share with my kind of LinkedIn rock your profile. Employer, employer brand, how important it is deck to then have someone who didn't know that, who didn't have that do it as a result of my employer brand workshop, who then does it and then starts reaching out to people on LinkedIn to kind of sell something that can have such a massive impact of that person, you know, being suspecting, you know, they can click on that, they can show that they've verified their work email by their company and all the rest of it that can have a massive, massive impact. Um, and again, I don't underestimate those, those, those small little details at all. I actually think they're super, super important.

Speaker B: Yeah, I would, I would agree with you. I often when I'm training on employee advocacy, social selling, employer brand, I often and I think I heard this from Derek Shebby who was on our podcast I think three, three seasons ago and has stuck in my head. But he always referred to like social selling, employee advocacy like the feed, right? Is that what you don't understand is even if you're not getting a lot of engagement on your posts as share content, is that you have to think about it as you're helping people in your network make mini micro purchasing decisions in their mind and that can go for like where to work to buying your product just by being a little bit more human. And it just has stuck with me because again you just every time you post, whether you're sharing, right, how difficult it may be to be a working parent, uh, maybe you're, you know, stuck on a subway and the commute is just crazy. Every time you share a little bit more of a human side of what it is to work and live right, it does help people get to know you a bit more and it helps them make those mini decisions that. Right. It plays a huge role. At the end of the day, even with candidates, right. If they're seeing these people posting the CEO, the CMO or the stakeholders that they're carefully watching and they're a bit more human. Right. At the end of the day when they go to accept their offer, that may be a huge differentiation for them to accept that offer because another brand isn't doing it. So I, I couldn't agree more with you there. Um, now when I think about. Right. I'm just thinking right back to 2020. We, we lived through Covid. We've live. We've lived through so much. Um, and I feel like our industry is constantly changing and I know if you go to like chat GPT, it's always like the ever changing landscape, but it's so, it's so true.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: What, in your opinion do you think has changed the most in the last, let's say like two years? Because I know you can probably even say in the last year how candidates evaluate employers.

Speaker C: That's so interesting.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker C: I think AI has a massive impact these days. And again, I know that there's younger generations who will use AI for everything. Um, that being said, I think there is a real kind of marmite effect to AI. There's either people who absolutely love it and will use it for everything and there's people who absolutely hate it. Um, and, and kind of vow not to use it again. I think there's just so much more out there for people to digest from a company. There's so much more transparency. You know, you go to Glass Door or um, there, there's another. And I think it's called Ambition Box. It's another review site. I think it's quite, quite big in India. You can go to all of these different kind of review websites and see what people are posting. And it feels to me, um, you know, having looked at Glassdoor profiles for the last six, seven years now, that people are being a lot more honest. Yeah. About their experience. I think people are being radically transparent with how they, um, you know, experience, uh, the company. Um, so that there's that. And again, I think you could use AI to say, you know, do you think this company is a good place to work? And then it'll probably go away and look at Glassdoor reviews, look at LinkedIn and it will kind of give you a sentiment about the company and, you know, make that kind of decision really easy for you. Um, again, one of the things that I'm really pushing for at the moment is to have more hiring managers be visible when promoting jobs. So we've got this kind of Meet the Hiring Manager series which we, which we're in the middle of kind of launching at the moment and we've got maybe four or five posts that happen, happening at the minute and we're hoping to do a few more kind of as, as the year goes on. But it's about giving that visibility into who the hiring manager of that role is because again, as I said before, I think your hiring manager will have such an impact, um, on how much you're enjoying your role in the company more so than all of the different company benefits and everything else that you can have. It's not to say that that doesn't make a difference, but again, I think working for a good manager who's challenging you and wanting to get the best out of you can be really rewarding. So giving a level of visibility to, to um, who hiring managers are kind of like what their approach is as a leader, kind of like what they're looking for in a team member will offer more than what a job description kind of can say. And again, you can look at that now. Um, I know that there's this, well, there's, there's a number of people on TikTok, um, who are kind of sharing kind of career advice and application advice and all the rest of it. But there's this one TikTok video actually made, I think it was 2022 that I saw it and I actually saved it and downloaded. And again it's part of one of my decks that I share specifically for hiring managers. And this is bloke who says, here's this job. I'm going to go to LinkedIn, I'm going to go to the company of that, I'm going to find the employer, uh, the employees within that company. I'm going to type in who I suspect might be my hiring manager based off of the job title and the location and then maybe one or seven appear and then you can see your hiring manager on, on LinkedIn like super quickly or your potential hiring manager, um, you know, he encourages them to kind of send a message to people. You can also look at their profile and see how engaged they are kind of what they're posting, if they're not posting what they're up to. And that again feeds into me. Communicating to people, is that people are probably doing this and looking for who their hiring manager could be, try and be more active, you know, whether it's just engaging and commenting on other people's posts like that alone can have a massive impact. Um, and as I said before, it feels to me like. And again, I'm old now.

Speaker B: I'm right there with you.

Speaker C: I'm 38 on Wednesday, and if I.

Speaker B: Happy early birthday.

Speaker C: Thank you very much. Um, I think back to when I was 18 and I just think I had no idea the different type of companies that were out there.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: That existed. The different type of roles that existed. As I said, there are roles that exist now that didn't 10, 10, 15 years ago. So I think with the power of the Internet and with AI, you know, you could really kind of drill down, like, what role you think you would excel in, what companies you think you would work in really well. And, um, it would provide you, like, a number of different jobs and opportunities and careers that are out there. So again, making sure that your company is present and has awareness as an employer is so important because again, you're going to be competing so much more heavily now with other companies like you, um, that are trying to recruit the same roles as you. So just having that level of visibility and that you're showing up in the places that people are looking for jobs is, is just so important. And, um, yeah, I, I say to every young person that I connect with when I do these kind of sessions is, you know, the world is literally at your fingertips. You've got a phone that has more technology in the first rocket that we spent sent to the moon or something like that, if I'm getting that, um, fact correct. And it's just like, use everything at your disposal to try and figure out, you know, what jobs could be good for you and what jobs might not be good for you and what companies have got good reviews and which companies haven't got good reviews. I will stress on this though, as well, because a couple of years ago I had someone who was working for me who was helping me respond to glassdoor reviews on the website. And they was like, I really struggle to respond to, like, the negative reviews. And I say the one thing I keep in the back of my mind, and it's not to say that this person didn't have a negative experience or discredit that in any way whatsoever. But I always say to them, there are two sides to the coin. Yeah. Whenever you see a negative review, whenever you, whether that's from, you know, uh, a candidate, whether that's from employee, whether that's someone commenting on a product, that's their personal experience of that, like something, if you Bought something, it could have arrived. Damaged. I could buy something, it might not arrive. Damage. I could go and work for a company and I was interviewed by someone who was great. I could go and work, interview at the same company, and the interviewer that I had just so happened to be not so hot on that day. You know, they could have had something happen to them or whatever. You know, you could work at a company in a specific department that was going through a really challenging time. You could be in the same company and be in a different department that's really thriving and excelling. So I always say to them, like, just be mindful, like, when you're responding to reviews, not to take it personally and just to, like, remember that this is someone's personal experience. Let's validate that. And not, you know, uh. What's the word? Not. Let's not gaslight them or anything like that. But, you know, in our minds, know that this is one person who said, one bad review. Let's flag it with the HR team or the manager, that we think we could be kind of responsible for that, for that person. But it's kind of then, you know, out of our control.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Really? I suppose. And that goes back to the thing that keeps me up at night. Full circle of like, you know, I can't control these things. I can share all the information. I can. I can. I can stress that, you know, in this department or in this location, we're getting negative reviews. This is a common theme. Please help me do something about it. But I can't. There's nothing I can do myself because it's almost out of my remit, out of my control. Um, so it's an interesting one. Did I answer? I feel like I've gone on a lot of rambles there.

Speaker B: No, it was. Listen, that's a great ramble. I love everything it needed to be said. Let's just face it. And, like, all of us are dealing. Whether you're responding to G2 reviews, ah, Glassdoor reviews, like, that's part of our job. And I think that's wise words. I have two more questions for you. Um, and the next one I actually particularly love, especially as someone who has been doing this for so long. If you could fix one common misconception about employer branding, what would it be?

Speaker C: That we're not just a pr. Uh, pr part of the business. Um, again, it's. It's that thing of, you know, this thing's happened, and we need you to respond to it. Well, again, you know, can I respond to that. Do I know anything about that? Is that my responsibility? Yeah. Not entirely sure. Um, we have a PR team, uh, here at payoneer and there's been pr, uh, PR teams everywhere I've worked and I'll again, in the same way with brand. I work really closely with them on that. But again, it's. My job is to bring, uh, or make people aware of payoneer as an employer, help bring candidates through the system and get them hired. Um, ensure that we're signposting internal opportunities so people have uh, the, the ability to move internally within the company, uh, you know, promote the referral scheme, help promote all the cool stuff that we're doing in the company, um, flag things that are bad to the relevant people that can kind of take care of it. Um, but it's when people think that you're solely responsible for promoting, um, something that won't really have an impact in terms of getting applications into the business or, um, will kind of showcase us as an employer that someone would want to come and work for. Um, and again, I don't blame anybody for coming to me with those things because again, as I said, you could work at a company and have seven different people come to you with seven different interpretations of what employer branding is. So again, I just see it as an opportunity for me to educate people on what my roles and responsibilities actually are. Um, I will most likely have connections with the person that they will need to speak to. So I'm very happy to kind of signpost them to them or, you know, even get involved in it if there's something that I feel is, um, particularly, uh, if I've got something kind of particularly meaningful to help add to that conversation. Um, but yeah, it's just, uh, I don't know people assuming they know what your job is without actually talking you about it, rather than someone coming, hey, I've got this thing. I don't suppose you'd be able to help me with this. Um, and I'm going, yeah, sure, I can help you with that. Or oh, no, I'm m not so sure. You might want to speak to this person instead. It's like, here's this thing, I need your help with it like now. And I'm just like, this isn't my realm. And also like, um, maybe don't come to me with things like urgently that I have got no context or information about beforehand. And assuming that I know. Again, that doesn't happen often. It's happened at every company that I work for. Again, I always try to assume positive intent and people, you know, working to hard deadlines or, you know, having um, a tricky day or whatever it might be. So I'm, I'm never angry with individuals when they do that, but I always just, I find it a, a constant theme, I suppose.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Touche, Daniel. Touche. Uh, last question for you. And I think this is a fun one and it's a tradition here on Radically Transparent. What is something about yourself that we actually would not be able to know about you by simply looking at your LinkedIn profile?

Speaker C: It's so hard because I post so much about myself on LinkedIn. There's very few things on LinkedIn that I don't disclose about myself anymore. Um, I think, I think that haven't posted about in a while is just how much I love boxing. Um, I did a white collar boxing match. Uh, I think it was like 2017, 2018 or something like that.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: I, I really don't like, uh, fighting. I don't like, uh, getting upset or angry with people.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're so soft spoken what you just said about the misconceptions. Right. Boxing.

Speaker C: I'm a bit of a peacemaker at heart and um, but I love kind of the art of boxing. My granddad, uh, boxed when he was younger and I've got like newspaper clippings from like the kind of the late 1950s and uh, early 1960s of different fights that he was involved in. I've got a picture on his wall, literally, uh, on my desk from when he was probably 18 or 19 years old. He was my, he was my hero growing up, or still is my her, despite the fact that he's not here anymore. Um, and I've always just wanted to challenge myself again with, with all of the work that I do in, in kind of the mental health space. I think mental resilience and kind of challenging yourself and pushing yourself is an incredibly important thing. Um, you know, our brains are designed to kind of keep us comfortable and content and not kind of stresses out too much. So, um, as much as I didn't want to get punched in the face or punched anywhere, um, I wanted to challenge myself to see if I could get in the boxing ring and kind of survive. And as you can tell, I've lived to tell the tale. Um, it was a really positive experience. Um, again, I wouldn't want to do it again, not because I, I didn't uh, enjoy uh, what I was doing, but because I don't care to be punching people in the face unnecessarily. So um, yeah, again, I think it's just a great discipline, a great way to keep yourself fit. Um, and again, I've got a ton of respect for anyone who kind of steps their foot into the ring because it's, it's incredibly, um, incredibly daunting. There's a quote by Mike Tyson, I think it was, that he says, like, I think everybody should be deserved. I think everybody should be punched in the face at least once, because then that's when you realize you're kind of. You're not made of glass. Um, and that can be incredibly freeing. Um, and again, not that I want anyone to be punched in the face, but it is that thing of, you're like, oh, that didn't hurt. Ah, as much as I thought it would as well. Or maybe the person that punched me was just not that strong. Um, but again, it's that thing of challenging yourself and trying to kind of push yourself out of your comfort zone and try something, um, that, you know will be a challenge for you, I think is super important to kind of your mental psyche and, and kind of your future. Well being.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Daniel, that, that is so well said. And I'm definitely not a boxer. If anybody came at me with boxing gloves, I'd be like, running so far the other way. But I think that's really ins. Inspiring. And thank you so much for sharing that last question. If anybody wants to connect on boxing recruitment, marketing, employer, brand life at payoneer or anything we spoke about today, where's the best place to reach out?

Speaker C: LinkedIn. Um, I'm, um, I'm reacting on LinkedIn. Um, I do have to send an apology out to anyone who's listened to this who sent me a message over the last couple of months. My inbox is crammed at the moment. Um, I've got a little boy, just turned four months old the other. The other day. So, um, I was on paternity leave for a little while and I've just been catching up and, um, my ADHD kind of makes me look at my inbox and go, I don't have the energy or the strength to reply to all of those messages today. So I try and connect with everyone as frequently as I can. Um, but, yeah, reach me on LinkedIn, Daniel Callahan. And, um, always happy to kind of connect and chat with other people in there.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Daniel, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for getting radically transparent and I look forward to doing it again, hopefully soon.

Speaker C: Yeah, fingers crossed. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Speaker D: Thanks for tuning in. To the radically transparent podcast brought to you by octopost, the only social media management and employee advocacy platform architected for B2B. I'm Jennifer Gutman, your host and Director of Product and Customer Marketing at octopost. If you love today's show and want us to create even more radically transparent content, we'd love for you to follow, rate, and give a raving review wherever you get your podcasts. If you're listening on the Apple Podcast app, simply scroll to ratings and reviews and tap those five stars. For more discussion on B2B marketing, be sure to follow Octopost on LinkedIn X and YouTube. And of course, to gain access to all our free social media marketing and employee advocacy resources, head on over to www.octopost.com.