Stakeholder Analysis And The Art Of Listening With Melissa Sherman

Speaker A: Today we are lucky enough to have Melissa Sherman on the show. Melissa is the vice chair of the Michigan Lean Consortium, an industrial engineer, an expert lean practitioner, consultant, teacher. Melissa, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Hey Dan, thanks, thanks for having me on today. Excited for this.

Speaker A: I am excited as well because I know that Morstein has been to some, some events the Michigan Lean Consortium has done and I've heard fantastic things about them. So I'm curious about that. And also your background in industrial engineering and Lean working with ISO standard. Some really incredible stuff to talk about today. The first thing I'd like to know more about is just tell us a little bit about the Michigan Lean Consortium. I know we had on the show before air Eric Olson, who had something in California Central Coast Lean, which is a collaboration of a whole bunch of lean practitioners from different backgrounds and fields learning from each other. I assume the Michigan Lean Consortium is something very similar, right?

Speaker B: It is. Yeah, it is. It's very similar. So it is a nonprofit. I'm not sure if the one out on the west coast was. But um, we are a nonprofit and we hold a variety of events for I'll say like minded people, but also people interested in what lean and continuous improvement is all about. So uh, the second Tuesday of the month is a virtual coffee chat. Uh, we have coming, uh, here in August is our annual conference which is being held in Muskegon, Michigan this year. It's August 4th through the 7th I think it is, or 8th. Sorry, I don't have the date memorized, um, offhand but again that's a great opportunity to come and meet others, uh, to learn and, or to share your experience. And then we do a lot of other different one day things here we go look for businesses in the Michigan area and do gembas or go sees, uh, and tour buildings and understanding um, where they are in their lean journey or where they're not and how we can help them. But it is a member based um, community. I'll say. But you don't have to be a member to attend any of our events. Um, the plus is if you get a membership, right, you can attend a coffee chat for no cost. If you're not a member, it's uh, 20 bucks. So it's not speaking at a break the bank to attend them. But it's just really great. I've learned so much from uh, the people that I've met uh, in that network. It's just amazing. Um, and a great, great opportunity to get to know people, network.

Speaker A: How many people involved in the Michigan Lean Consortium are from the Upper Peninsula.

Speaker B: That's a great stat that I don't have in front of me. I know we do have at least three or four people uh, that are in the up area that come down. One, she's uh, highly involved at Michigan Tech and I think was one of the founding individuals or has at least been on our board before. Uh, and there's a couple others. So I would say a majority of our membership today are people that work for the state of Michigan. Uh, so they're going to be all around. I think most of them are in the lower, lower part of the state. Um, and then we got some utilities in there. We've got some industrials, manufacturing, um, and a little bit of involvement with um, hospitals.

Speaker A: Excellent, excellent. I, I always curious about that because the Upper Peninsula, I mean if you're going from Detroit all the way to like Marquette, Michigan, that's, that's what, a seven, eight hour drive?

Speaker B: I think so. Yeah. Yes.

Speaker A: So I was just curious about that. That's great. Now Melissa, as I mentioned at the beginning, you were an industrial engineer by training. So and you worked in utilities for a very long time. So how did you go from hands on engineering and operations with utilities and into leading change into continuous improvement?

Speaker B: I will say I think a lot of it's just in my DNA from having an undergrad in industrial engineering, uh, and really bringing to, to the utility. Right. Because it's 100% service. Uh, they don't make widgets and having them understand how they can be more efficient in their processes and that's all through subconsciously or consciously change management. Right. And so they really all um, blend together. I was actually having a conversation with somebody this morning. Like we build too many silos, meaning we have a silo that says, oh here's your ISO and here's your quality up. Here's a silo that you're continuous improvement lane. And oh hey, here's change manager, psychological safety, all of those. And so I really like to bring them all together and uh, not say it's one or the other. It's this is, this is us and this is how we move forward and are sustainable.

Speaker A: I think utilities. There's a lot of very specific pressures that come with utilities. There's regulation, there's safety, there's reliability, there's uptime new energy sources. How do those realities shape the way improvement work actually happens with utilities, say an electric company compared to other industries with all of those additional pressures?

Speaker B: Well one thing that I'll say is very um, prominent in the utilities and specifically in generating, but in all assets of the business, whether it's engineering, whether it's the guys or gals that are going out and selling electric lines or putting gas in, or even the accountants, they all are very stringent in building standard work. And it's that standard work that helps them be efficient and um, look for continuous improvement. And so it's really explaining that, you know, it's a lot of times I would hear it's like, I have my day job and you want me to do this lean stuff and like. But you already do it, right. We want to just make it even more efficient so you can have more time at, at home to do your extracurricular activities or play with family or whatever it might be. So it's really explaining that why. But back to what you're saying though, it's the base bones is having that standard work and then reviewing it and um, enhancing it. The other part that's extremely relatable in utilities is that, um, think you lose power. Right. And how are we being systematic and sending our crews to go restore power? Um, in the most efficient way? Uh, it's even on a day to day basis. How are we scheduling our crews to go and install new power or gas lines and make it so that they're, they have that cohesive driving path and that they're not going like 10 miles north and then 20 miles south and another 10 miles north. Right. And just making that nice, um, path for them to do their, their work in a daily basis.

Speaker A: Now the work you do often involves ISO standards.

Speaker B: It does bringing.

Speaker A: Yes, and bringing lean together with ISO standards. What does that look like in practice? And what common problems do you help organizations fix? We hear about ISO standards all the time, but not as many people actually dig into them to understand what they are.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a new area for me. Uh, I had somebody reach out and asked if I was interested in helping them do, um, what's called internal audit. So it's before your registrar comes in and certifies you or recertifies you. And it's just being a different set of eyes going into a business and looking and making sure that they're hitting all of the clauses and the requirements for those clauses. Um, I will say, uh, this year is my first year and most of those industries that I have visited, ah, are in a hot mess. Meaning their quality person has left or the company decided not to have a quality section anymore. And so it's really going in and helping those that are taking that over now figure out where are these documents stored, how do I access them, how do I look proficient when my registrar comes in and I'm not fumbling. And I think one of the biggest things, aside from the struggles of finding where documents are stored, one of the biggest struggles I have noticed is that many aren't as diligent as they could be in reviewing their standards and making sure it's the best practice today. Um, and how can they enhance it for tomorrow?

Speaker A: When you're dealing with processes, naturally you're also dealing with people. So when a new improvement effort comes up, what are the first practical steps that you take? Melissa? To work with the people involved with changing a process alongside fixing the process itself. How do you deal with the people?

Speaker B: Luckily I'll say but conceded here I am upbeat and outgoing and I like to meet and get to know people.

Speaker A: Always a positive. That's always a positive.

Speaker B: One thing I'll say in, in my journey of career and doing continuous improvement is that I have always been the facilitator to go in and help accounting or help uh, an area do an improvement. I've also been very fortunate when I was in the utility business that I worked in a lot of different of uh, the organizations. So I was in engineering at one time. I worked in generation. I worked in a lot of the different locations that I would know. Hey, we got this group of people together. We haven't really looked at all the stakeholders up and downstream.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: We need to bring them in to this conversation, um, as we work through this problem so that we can get as close to a win win for everybody as possible. You got to do a little give and take. And so there's that part of it. And then it's also me when I open up, uh, uh, I do an icebreaker and we get to know each other to understand the problem as a whole and understand how we can work together again can make it better for all of us. And it seems to go a bit better.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: The why are we doing this? We're not doing this to take away your job. We're not doing this to add more work to you. We're doing this so again we can be more efficient. And I've uh, twisted the coin. I like life work balance, not work life balance. Right. So how can we get a better life so that we enjoy our work and that we can then uh, enjoy our life so.

Speaker A: Hey Melissa, tell me about a time you were working on an improvement project and the technical fix looks solid but the change still Ran into trouble at first. What was happening with the people and how did you adjust once you saw it?

Speaker B: I think just about every change involves something technologically, uh, different.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And, uh, not that it was an improvement per se, but I can just speak to earlier this week. Uh, it was ISO related, um, where they were. I came in to do their interim audit. And it was a very small company. Uh, they do powder coating and E coding. And, um, there's like maybe three people total. Like office wise office, uh, manager, shipping, receiving and plant manager. Happen to be all males. Not that that matters, but, uh, and varying in ages from, I would say maybe mid-40s up to late 60s. But they weren't computer savvy.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And so walking and working with them to be more proficient not only in their quality management system, but also in how they access and how they maintain their electronic database and information. Uh, so. And maybe it's in my bloodstream also because of teaching college for so many years, but taking the time to explain the how and the why to do things.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Allowed them to see, um, that, hey, this isn't a big scary monster. I can manage, uh, you know, just bite, bite pieces of it. And so anything that's technologically technically related, I should say, whether it's changing how you're going to engineer something to how you're going to, uh, use a new software package to any of that. For me, it's always been explaining the why and then the how, uh, to bring them along. And I'm, I'm always been one that if you, Dan, needed some extra time on that, I'm going to carve out time to help you to move along versus saying, oh, well, I'll feed you to the wolves and you have to figure it out on your own. Sorry.

Speaker A: I like that.

Speaker B: That's probably why I ran into some constraints at my previous employment, because I wanted to take the time to make everyone successful.

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker B: And not feed them to the wolves.

Speaker A: I was gonna say I like that. I like having that time because when I, uh, when I'm approaching something new, that's one of the things that people sometimes stress about. This is new. How. How quickly will they expect me to be able to do this? And if you take that time, it certainly makes people feel more comfortable.

Speaker B: Well, there's that and there's the if you're more comfortable, you're going to adopt that new way versus Melissa leaves the room and never checks in on you and you're back to your old ways.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Along the same lines. But Slightly different. I can give a great example. So early in my higher education career, when I was teaching adjunct, I had an AutoCAD class. So drafting on the computer for those out in the, you know, out in the abyss that don't know that, um, I had a range, right? From the kid that was right out of high school to an elderly gentleman that wanted to go back and further his career and could barely turn a computer on. Being new to education. I would go in and lecture for three hours, give him homework, and then I'd see him next week. And so they're trying to do everything on their own. And I'm going, oh my gosh, this individual is like, his drawings are off. It just looks awful. What's he doing? And I started to watch that. I had a, uh, aha moment myself. And I do this. Whether I'm teaching eight steps of problem solving, how to do a fishbone, anything. I went and said, okay, we have a range of people, a range of knowledge. This week we're going to draw these six drawings. Let's work on them in class together so that the, the advanced student, they could be done in maybe two hours and show me the work and go home and not have to sit there for another hour and a half where the novice had more of that one on one time. And they actually came. The one student came up to me at the end, he goes, I've learned more in this class than I've had in any other class. And right. So how do we make our young kids or those going back to school be the success that we need to keep, you know, things running?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It's taking that time.

Speaker A: Now, Melissa, you've used different change approaches and tools over the years. How do you decide which one fits a particular situation? How do you know which tool to use in a specific change management project?

Speaker B: I will say there's no one size fits all. And there's no tool that says if I'm doing a software update that I should use this tool. If I'm just doing a standard update, I should use that tool. Uh, I don't believe in an out of the box tool. The only one that I would say is consistent across all of my change would be using a stakeholder analysis.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Understanding who's going to be affected by it, how they're going to be affected by the change, and then figuring out how am I going to, uh, work with that group, that organization, or that individual, uh, to bring them along on the change. And I think we forget that a lot of times, right we just look at the immediate, uh, maybe two, three or ten people and we don't look, look how others are being affected by it. So for me the stakeholder analysis is probably the most important and really the only tool. And then tools are there to help us, but I don't think they're, we shouldn't depend on them, let's put it that way. Other than that stakeholder, how do you

Speaker A: conduct, you specifically Melissa, how do you conduct a stakeholder analysis? We haven't talked about that much on the show, so I'd love to get some insight as to what you do to make that stakeholder analysis a reality to give you the information you need to move forward.

Speaker B: Yeah, so first off is finding out what the change is. Right. What problem are we solving or what are we implementing that's new and finding out what the change is. A lot of times I'll actually start with a process map.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, with or without? I don't usually use film lanes, I just use different colors for different organizations, but everybody's different. I do a swim map, uh, sorry, process map so that we can understand um, where the change is happening and again who's affected up and downstream. And then I just randomly will pick, depending on the size of the organization, one to however many people to go and uh, have a discussion with. So I'm not sending a blank email saying, hey, fill out the survey. It's really just having that discussion again. Getting to know people, having a discussion, understanding where they're at. I'm not going to say, hey, we have this change coming. Are you here and depressed? Are you here and you're really, you know, I don't show them all that. It's uh, I just say luck of doing it for so long by having that conversation I can understand. And so now I can say, okay, Susie over here, we might have to work with her a little bit more or just sending her an email is not going to be a good thing. We need to do some more face to face. And so it's just by getting to know people, uh, to understand where they're at and then um, make a plan and how to move it forward.

Speaker A: Uh, what do you do? Let's say you have, you've picked three random people in your stakeholder analysis who have similar jobs, similar positions and you've talked to all three of these people and they all have completely different opinions or completely different concerns. How do you take all of that data and put it together to make it useful for you? If you're hearing Such widely varying things.

Speaker B: Well one, I would be worried if I didn't hear varied things. Um, because as a society in general we're not, we shouldn't all be at the same level at the same time for everything going on. Um, but it allows me to help draft um, what a communication can look like. And when I say communication, I don't mean just an email, I don't mean just a flyer, um, which is one of the struggles I've had in change management. Like, oh, just email everybody. And I'm like, well no, because I'm probably not going to read it and I want it face to face or I want a video call. Um, but it's to take all that. I usually will throw it into a Excel spreadsheet of some type. Uh, I will say I use AI to help me out a little bit more now and I'll plug it into there and say hey, can you pareto this out, let me know where my highest hitters are, my worst hitters are and then go from there and go, okay, how do we build a good communication plan that uh, can reach all of these people? Whether it's building an faq, uh, whether it's just check ins. Right. I mean if you have something that's going on, I'm pretty sure I could be wrong. I don't know you that well, but you would like just a simple, hey Dan, this is Tom and how you doing? Any other concerns? And just those check ins I think are very important along the way.

Speaker A: We've talked about the beginning of a project. Let's get to the end. Once a project is finished, how do you know if the new way of working has really become normal behavior instead of a short term improvement? What do you do to make that change stick? And I guess that's the million dollar question, right?

Speaker B: I get people, some people upset at me. Um, again I've always been, I'll say on the easier side. I've been the facilitator to help people move, uh, in problem solve. And so if it's something like I did here a few years ago at the utility where um, they made a rather drastic change in what engineering did for our scope for scoping of a project. And when we first, so just some background, when we first started looking at, we looked at project change notices, how many we are getting on a yearly basis and we said, well this improvement will reduce those product change notes, those project change notices. Sorry, um, and what ended up happening is the number didn't change. It was 74 previously. I think it was 72 or 75 after we implemented our improvement. But what did change was the amount of request of money in those change notices that we ended up, uh, in the first year prior to implementation, they needed roughly $2.3 million more money to complete said projects. After we did the change, it ended up being they were able to give back about a million and a half. So we had like a 3 million delta, but we're able to bring more things forward. All that to answer your question is how did we make sure it was sustainable? I had on my calendar because I knew the cycle of the project that, um, twice a year I would check in and say, hey, how are things going? What do we need to adjust? What do we need to do? Um, unfortunately, because I think specifically in the utility, uh, lean is so new, but I think I've heard this across all industries that we forget the whole cycle of the pdca or plan, do, check, act. We're pretty good at planning, we're really good at doing, but we're never as good as we could be at, uh, checking to make sure that it was sustainable. And how are we going to act to adjust that? And so depending on the project, and I don't want to say severity, but the cycle of it, I would put calendar reminders on my calendar that said, hey, I need to check back with Dan and see how we're doing on this. It's been six months. Are they still following what they intended? Okay, if not, let's pause, let's see what we need to do to adjust it. Do we need to, uh, retrain or rehab a conversation? What do we need to do to make sure that people are following along? And the same thing, if it's one that's shorter or less than maybe in a week, it might be, you know, a year, it depends. So I will put those reminders on my calendar, um, for that. In the same token, I've done some consulting work and improvements. Again, I have a reminder on my calendar that says, hey, reach out to, to so and so and just say, hey, is it still working the way we intended when I left? Just to make sure that, well, one, right, they're paying for my services, but two, they're getting the benefit out of those services.

Speaker A: I wanted to ask you about that moment where people, whether students or teams at work, started to see lean ideas connect with the actual work that they do every day. And I'll give you, uh, an example for me, when I first saw this connect and I think I've talked about this on the show before, in another life, I was a touring stand up comedian and I traveled all over the country doing stand up comedy. And as I'm learning these lean principles, I learned about the concept of operational definition. Um, and that really struck me and stuck with me because I could see it clearly from my time as a comedian because for me, the biggest operational definition problem was when somebody asks you to be clean. And I'd get shows for businesses or organizations or what have you, where I was told, please be clean. But clean can mean so many different things. And I've had clean mean I want you to be able to do your show as if my 5 year old were in the front row. All the way up to, you can say just about everything, but not this. So that's a wide range of clean. And when, uh, the concept of operational definition, I learned about that. I was like, aha, I get that. When do you see that? What are some examples where you've seen that in either students or teams that you work with?

Speaker B: A lot of times I've actually seen the aha of, um, improvement when I can relate it to something they do personally or at home. Uh, again, right. As I mentioned, um, many in the utility will go, uh, I don't, I don't have time for this. We don't make widgets. How am I going to be lean? And so a lot of times I'll say, hey, so how many of you guys own a car? Most will raise their hand. I mean, I realize there's some that don't need them or don't have them. And like, what's in the glove box? And then I'm like, they give me this like, okay, lady, what are you talking about? I'm like, okay, I guess I got to coax you here, you know, it's your owner's manual. What is your owner's manual? It's your standard work. And so if you choose not to follow the standard work of your owner's manual, there's two things that happen. One, your car may not get to the longevity that it's intended for. And two, the manufacturer doesn't know how good their standard work is because you're not following it. So they don't know how to improve upon it. And that's usually when you get the, oh, I get this now, right? I can't complain about my car dying at 50,000 miles when I've never done any of the maintenance to it. Uh, so a lot of times when I can relate to those things that you do on A. I don't want to say daily basis on a personal level, similar to what you're saying.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: When you did the standup comedy. Not that that was on a personal level, but when you can relate it to something you do and know, you get that aha, uh, going, oh, hey, I get how I can do something in my daily job that, um, I don't need. It's not even a value add. I can get rid of it. And so when you start to do that, you get those ahas, uh, and how they can apply it in their daily.

Speaker A: Daily work, I think, too, because I recently had some standard work on my car. And it's a reminder. I knew that I was at a certain mileage level where this was not going to be an inexpensive visit. I knew it would be a little costly. Sometimes standard work isn't always the most fun. But to get the benefit that you want, you better do that standard work.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: I could have put off that standard, uh, work and saved a little money now, but in three years, it would have cost me a heck of a lot more.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's really understanding that, right. The return of my investment. How much am I going to save? My. And there's still the chance, right. That something's going to go wrong that's, um, outside of your control, per se. Um, but again, it's just being able to be relatable in a. I hate to use the word common sense, but in a common practice, uh, of how you. How you actually do this on, uh, a frequency. So I remember, uh, a leadership at one time say, we want 8,000 problem solvers here. I said, I bet you we have them right now. Well, what do you mean? I said, any one of the employees will go home tonight, tomorrow, or next week and go, oh, my gosh, the sink is leaking. I have to figure out what the problem is. How do I fix it? Right? Oh, geez. My case, my childhood, when they're younger, they would flush toothbrushes down the toilet. I got to figure out, how am I going to fix it, right? And so we all are ingrained with problem solving. We just don't relate it to walking through all eight steps. And what are we going to do? Sometimes it's pulling our response, uh, out of the seat of our pants, right. And implementing it and hoping it sticks. And other times, you. You do m. Methodically walk through and go, okay, how can I truly fix this?

Speaker A: Something you just said really, really made me think of a time I solved a problem, and I solved that problem because if you've got a problem now in your house, there's probably a YouTube video that will help you fix it. And I remember I had a, uh, you mentioned a leaky sink. I had a little bit of a leaky toilet and I went on YouTube, watched it, and I'm not a hand person, but by watching that I was able to fix that problem and I felt pretty good about myself. So how do you think exposing the tools to these 8,000 potential problem solvers like YouTube exposed that to me? How do you think that motivates and inspires people to feel good about their problem solving ability, having those tools, having access to that?

Speaker B: Well, I would just say the flip side of it, right? I would bet that we'll say half, 4,000 of the employees probably do the same thing you do. I do the same thing. I'm trying to figure out how to build a power bi report which, uh, could be a problem, right. I'm searching YouTube or something on how to uh, move forward in building whatever I want. So I would presume that a fair amount of individuals already do that. They just don't relate it to, hey, I'm problem solving.

Speaker A: Okay?

Speaker B: Right. They're, they're. How do I want to say this? Why recreate the wheel when somebody's already had a very similar problem that you can learn from and fix it? And that's how businesses should be. And it's a challenge because if, if you look at the utility in Michigan, whatever one it is, right. There's buildings around the whole state that if one building fixes an issue, yeah, you can put it in a database. But what you might call the issue, what I think it is, which is no different than looking on Google, right. They don't quite match. It takes you to figure out what the wording is. But if we as a society, and maybe somebody has it out there, could figure out the best way to share what we've fixed so others can benefit from it would be a huge success.

Speaker A: Foreign. I'm thinking about a lot of things in different ways from talking to you. And I can see how you would be successful going into a new situation because you've given me new ideas, new ways to think about things even in just this short time we've been talking, we've already talked about naysayers and people who push back where you were able to win them over. How did you do that? What was that like?

Speaker B: The naysayer, the person that's sitting like this, right. And you could tell they're just not interested. I Don't want to say, don't give them the time of the day. But I don't focus on them, right? Uh, and I've had, uh, some times where I've had. And not everybody that sits with their arms crossed is uninterested, but most of the time they are. And I've been in a class where a person's sitting there and interested, and I'm like, oh, yeah, like Dan over here, you know, what do you think about this? He goes, I know, I'm listening. This is how I sit, right? Whether that's true or not true, all of a sudden you're kind of getting them engaged in the questions and in the conversation. And so it's getting them engaged, um, within reason, right? Because you may have that individual that's more of an introvert and they don't want to talk about it. And so with that, then it's also being okay with silence for a few minutes or giving them opportunities of how to, um, provide answers maybe after a session. And so I do a lot of that where I don't want to say it's necessarily anonymous, but people have an opportunity to speak up without a fear of, um, something negative against them or somebody coming after them or making fun of them, right? So I like to make anytime I'm in an area together a safe space. Uh, it's easier said than done because you're still going to have those. But I, again, going back to the college, right, you take the time and, um, get to know them, brings them along. Because a lot of times I've found that when you have that naysayer or the one that doesn't want to get involved at all, it's because they haven't had an opportunity to have a conversation and have somebody listen to them. And then once they get the feeling that, oh, she really does care, she's listening to me, uh, and then if there's something that they've said that I can adjust and make it easier or better for them, uh, to prove that I'm listening. That's all. Um, in the world of moving them forward, it may not be all the way to the opposite end, but it's one step closer to coming along on, uh, the journey again, right. I don't, uh, I don't let them stray me from the intent of being there, but I also make sure to give them the time. But in the same token, it's not calling them out in front of everybody. You know, if it's a break time or early in the morning, if It's a multi day thing. And to say, hey, I know I asked, you had your arms crossed or you were busy on your phone or, uh, you know, is there something going on you want to talk about? They may say no, and that's okay, but they know I'm there, uh, to understand and help them, not just, um, blow them off.

Speaker A: You're reminding me again of another stand up comedy analogy because you could be on stage in front of 300 people and 299 of them are having a great time. But as a comedian, a lot of times your focus is on the one, on the one whose arms are crossed and is maybe frowning and you're, you're, you're aware of them. You don't want to necessarily call them out, but you're aware of them. And then that moment when they break a little bit and you see that smile and you see that laugh and maybe the postures change just a little bit, that's, that's almost more rewarding than the other 299 people who are just having a great time.

Speaker B: Yeah, for me, that's it. The challenges for me is how do you crack the egg a little bit. Right. Um, and just get them to look at things I say a little bit differently than what they did before. That's the true win. Yeah, it's great. The other night, 299have been enjoying the whole thing, but now I know that one extra person there, um, I got them.

Speaker A: You've been at this, Melissa, for a while in the utilities industry as a teacher, obviously, now as a consultant with the Michigan Lean Consortium. How have you seen Lean practice continuous improvement evolve over the years and where do you think it's headed?

Speaker B: I don't know if it's really evolved from its inception, you know, many years ago with Toyota, but what's evolved is the companies starting to adopt it.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And whereas going can do many things depending the people you have, um, on the bus. And when I say that there's a couple different books out there, but I just got done listening Good to Great by Jim Collins. Right. And you really want to have the right people on the bus to make your organization move forward. And so, uh, from that perspective, I can see it continuing to grow. But where I do see some challenges now that I'm on that consulting side is, um, people want to, or say they want to do continuous improvement, but they don't want to take the time out of the day or pay. Whether it's a consultant or you have somebody internally. Right. They don't necessarily want to pay, um, for the services to make them improve and then stick to them, which is sad. So it's trying to figure out how can you build a story and a dialogue that those companies get that aha, uh, moment of going, hey, you know what? If I can do this and I'm sustainable at it, this is where a business can be in six months. This is where a business can be in five or 10 years. So there's that part of it where I do have a slight concern is not that AI is bad. Uh, as I mentioned, I'll use it to throw data in. Um, I'll use it more frequently to say, hey, I want to write this email. Can you help me make it look a little more polished? Or, um, uh, so I've used it and I know you can use it to build programs. I mean, there's so much you can do with AI. But my concern is, is that people or companies that don't want to have, uh, a consultant come in or somebody to kick them off will start depending on AI. And AI is not going to be smart enough to truly solve a problem. They're not in the business, they don't see the people. They're not going to do a stakeholder analysis. You're going to plug something in, maybe give it some data, and that's going to spit out a response for you. And then if it doesn't work, then it's that all this continuous improvement doesn't work. Right. And so that is a fear of mine that we'll use AI as it's not intended, uh, to solve all of our problems and it's just not going to be able to. Maybe in 20 years it will be smarter. Right. But today it's not where I would use it.

Speaker A: I think an AI stakeholder analysis right now would go something like, you're right. That was fantastic input. Your suggestion was phenomenal. It will change everything.

Speaker B: Yeah, I might deployment that once, Hey, I want to make this problem or I have this problem. What stakeholders do I need to be concerned with?

Speaker A: Uh, none of them because you're going to do such a fantastic job. We talked a little bit earlier about the example of a car and the standard work involved with a car and the maintenance. People love those examples in their daily lives to help them understand some of these concepts. I know you've had some examples like with going to the grocery, maybe. Could you give us some other examples of how we can explain this in our daily lives that people can use to just help people, bring them along into what lean is all about.

Speaker B: Man, I wish I could find it quick enough. Um, I don't know if he's left or not. Yet another example I use is, um, with my husband, love him dearly, but how I load the dishwasher and how he loads the dishwashers differently.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And so there's many times that I'll use that as an example of standard work where, Right. We can't blame the individual. It's. The standard work is inefficient. And so I'm like, well, one, we don't have standard work. So I can't really say he's doing it right or wrong. Or I can't say I'm right or wrong. Right. We. We would have to figure out what the baseline is of what's the best way to load a dishwasher. I can't assume, because he unloads it for me, that he would know how to load it or vice versa, that I would load it the same way he does. And so it's using that example, and I have pictures and it gets a good laugh. It's a good icebreaker.

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker B: Of differences. Right. So. And if we wrote standard work, would we follow it? So it's. It's still taking it on that personal level of going, okay, if I write it and I don't train or share it with him, I can't expect him or kids or whoever it is. Right. To do it. So it's just really bringing that part together. And then the other one, uh, that I really like to use, and if you haven't seen it, it's, um, I gotta look it up really quick. But it's how to make a sandwich. It's a YouTube thing.

Speaker A: Yeah, I've seen that. That's good.

Speaker B: Um, it's just another way of saying, hey, you know, open the bread. Well, okay. You rip it open. It doesn't say, you, uh, know, untie, pull out. And so it's just when you can show things like that of how you think you're given simple instructions and the other person is understanding, um, them differently, how you can have frustration. And so I like to bring those different analogies in or do those exercises with people. So they get, oh, you know what? Now I get it. So. Excuse me. Another example, I was out at, uh, company, and we. They. For their production, they had standard work, but for like, say, customer service on order entry, or, um, accounts receivable, accounts payable. They didn't have standard work because the individual's like, well, I'VE been doing it for 20 years. I don't need standard work. I'm like, yeah, but you don't. But let's say you win the lottery tomorrow and you're not going to come to work or, you know, you want to bring somebody in because you're growing so much, you need help. And we sat down and I said, tell you what, you walk through the process, I'm going to make notes, you send me your screenshots because I don't have access to your system. When I got all done writing it, she's like, oh, I don't really need to do that step. Oh, I, I should add this step. And so when they see it written, there's that aha moment of hey, this is how it can be beneficial. Uh, and then along those lines, right? As we think about that, if you're in an organization, as we talk standard work, it's best if I have you, Dan, come observe what I'm doing for the day, not knowing what I'm doing versus me trying to observe myself. Mhm. Right. Because we're so entwined to what we're doing, we're going to skip over a step or add a step or whatever it may be. So I like to promote that you go to a different department, go to a different area and go to the Gemba, go see and learn how that's done. Not only does it benefit the person you're watching because you have a different set of eyes, but now it benefits you because you're learning another area of the business. And so that's where you get that other aha's, uh, in there of going, hey, I just learned something else. Maybe, you know, use me as an example. Maybe I'm going to go watch an ISO 9001 audit. And I like this, hey, I want to go that route. Right. So it just allows you to open up doors and see other possibilities that are out there to do in the world.

Speaker A: Melissa, I want to wrap up with this and thank you so much. This has been such a tremendous conversation. I've enjoyed it so much and I have learned a few things, which is always great because that's part of the fun for me of doing this show is that I continue to learn. Um, for someone who has a strong technical background and wants to move into leading improvement or change work, what's one practical step you suggest that they take?

Speaker B: Soon I'm going to broaden up and put it in any area, not just a technical background.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, and I think it's important across the board. No matter whether, uh, you're in a, ah, specific technical, if you're in a service industry, wherever you're at, the biggest thing to do in any of these, and maybe it's because it's number two on my strength Finders is learner. But to be curious, ask questions, get clarity and dig in. Don't go with the assumption of my problem is X and it's this big. Start asking those whys, digging in and learning. Um, and just there's so much out there for an individual, whether it's YouTube videos, whether it's, um, online classes. I'm sure more Steam has classes that people can take along that way. I know you guys got different products that, uh, and find a mentor, find somebody, join somebody. If you're in Michigan or not in Michigan, like the Lean Consortium, or if there's a consortium in your neck of the woods, um, you know, there's can draw a blank on it now. Um, um, ASQ is a big one in Lean. Right. So there's so many avenues. People can just go and meet other people and learn, uh, and find out if it's a thing you like. It's not, it's not for everybody. But in the same token, it is for everybody. Uh, whether you're just on the end of problem solving or you're upfront doing, doing the problem solving and facilitating it.

Speaker A: I like how you said that it's not for everybody, but it is for everybody because at the end of the day, what the problem solvers are doing, what the lean practitioners are doing, are making things better for everyone all over the world.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Melissa, this has been tremendous. Before you go, um, just tell, uh, me a little bit what's next for the Michigan Lean Consortium. You have your conference coming up, coming up in August, you said, I think, in Muskegon. Was that right?

Speaker B: It is, yep. Right on Muskegon Lake. Yep.

Speaker A: And so for the rest of 2026, what are, what are some of the plans you have?

Speaker B: Uh, let m. Me. Well, before I go into that, I just want to say one thing. One goal of mine, anytime I'm having a conversation, whether it's a podcast like this, uh, working with a group of people, uh, in problem solving or training, is that they can walk away with one new nugget of information to help them in their daily life. So I feel awesome that I was able to give you at least that one nugget, if not two, you, um, did to move forward with. So thank you for telling me that. Um, but back to the MLC or the Michigan Lane Consortium. Right. Our big thing is here in um, the first week of August, the annual conference. Uh, Andy, I want to say it's Rorschach. I probably have his name wrong but he was first, uh, mate with the gentleman that wrote the book. Uh, turn the ship around. I'm drawing a blank on that individual's name. Is one of our keynote speakers along with Elizabeth Swan, uh, who was also a stand up comedian in a previous life before she got into Lean. She will be our other keynote speaker and then we have a lot of other great breakout speakers and events going on. We're lining up uh, Gembas or Tours to go to different places. So very, very excited about that. Um, after that it's kind of a deep breath and get ready for next year. Uh, we have location in mind. I can't disclose it here because we don't do that until our August, but it will be in Michigan and another right spot, uh, which will be the first week of August in 2027. So right off the heels of this one we start planning uh, for the next year because it's not a small lift. Uh, we'll be having um, March 19th if anybody wants to come enjoy winter in grand, uh, Rapids. We do a one day summit that's at Grand Valley State University. And as I mentioned we have our coffee chats that are um, every second Friday of the month. They're virtual on a teams 8:30 to 9:30 we'll be throwing in a couple of book discussions. So we've been fortunate enough to find books that we this thing, how do I say this? We've been fortunate enough to find the authors for the books, uh, to join us.

Speaker A: Oh really?

Speaker B: Yeah. That's cool. I went on a whim a couple years ago at Karen Martin, uh, in her clarity first and asked if she would join us. And since then all of the books I did in 25 but one, I uh, got the authors to join us in the conversation. And so that's just really cool to make those connections too. And then I'm not 100% sure but I know we're rounding out six, uh, months of a green belt training through MLC right now. And I'm not sure if we're doing a green belt next year if we're going to bump it up to a black belt. But we'll be offering some training next year. So a lot of things are in the hopper there, uh, keeping me busy.

Speaker A: Well, I will certainly put a link to the Michigan Lean Consortium in our show notes. And as I mentioned at the top of the show, More Steam attended your conference, I believe, last year, I think it was, and. Or maybe two years ago.

Speaker B: I think they're there last year and the year before and they've been great. When they talk about our green belt class, we've gotten the software from you guys or worked with you guys to get that licensing for those students. And so that's been a great, uh, collaboration between the two.

Speaker A: Okay, fantastic. And of course, Peg is from Michigan, and we talked about Michigan on the very first episode of the show. And Melissa, I've really enjoyed this so much. I really enjoy being around positive people and you can tell that you're a very positive person. And I've really enjoyed our conversation a lot and I can see how, how you've been such a success over the years, leading change.

Speaker B: Thanks so, um, much, Dan. It's been great talking with you.

Speaker A: It has been fantastic. Thanks so much, Melissa. We'll see you next time. Additionally, I want to thank you, our audience, for spending some quality time with More Steam. You can email the show@qualitytimeoresteam.com and if you're enjoying the show, please leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast service. Also, please visit our website more steam.com to learn about the tools, training and software you need to transform your organization into a problem solving powerhouse. Join the Ranks of Fortune 500 companies that trust More Steam for their enterprise process improvement. We'll be back in two weeks with another episode of Quality time with Moor Steam. Thanks again.