Skye Donovan, PT, PhD, OCS, Dean of the College of Health and Education Marymount University, VP of the American Physical Therapy Association

Speaker A: This is my journey. Inspired. One story at a time. A library of leaders was created. It began as a journey to learn. As time went on, it began to grow. All it needed was a platform. And this podcast was created to listen, to inspire, to share. I am a storyteller, and this is my journey. Welcome to another episode of Profiles and Leadership. I'm your host, Steve Anderson, and today our guest is Dr. Sky Donovan. So she is vice president of the American Physical Therapy Association, And I'm going to have you tell us what your title is at Marymount University.

Speaker B: Sure. And thanks for having me on. Um, currently I am serving as the dean of the College of Health and Education, and I also still retain my faculty appointment. So I'm a professor in our, um, department of Physical Therapy there, and I've been there 18 years.

Speaker A: Wow. Uh, Dean. That's a big job. So

Speaker B: it is. Think

Speaker A: of Lisa Saladin was a dean. Well,

Speaker B: and then a provost, so she's a big deal. Yeah,

Speaker A: yeah. And so there's a few physical therapists that are deans. There are universities. Yeah.

Speaker B: So Harka Posse, who's our treasurer on the board, he's a dean as well. So, yeah, physical therapists making their way up in the world in academia, I guess.

Speaker A: So tell us a little bit. Uh, I always like to start with a little context. So tell us where you grew up, kind uh, of some early influences, how you became a pt, and then how do you get into this, uh, impressive position you're

Speaker B: in? Sure. Yeah. I have a really bizarre origin story, so thanks for letting me tell it. I'm from New Jersey, so a lot of people, when they meet me, because I live in Virginia, and I've been there now longer than when I grew up in New Jersey, then they're like, oh, that's where the directness comes from. I'm like, it does M. So grew up in New Jersey and went, um, to college and was strictly, um, foundational science. So at the time, I'm a little gray in the hairs. We called it basic science. And I had somebody sort of shift my perspective at a conference a couple of years ago, and they go, there's nothing basic about bench science. They said, call it foundational science. I go, I will. So I was, uh, a chemistry major, and then I went directly into graduate school and got my PhD in biochemistry. My whole project was I designed, with the help of the team, a transgenic mouse to look at a diabetes and obesity model. And I was working at the bench side for greater than six years. And, uh, shocking. I was talking to the mice. And at that point I kind of realized, although I really loved the work and the science I was so far removed from, even though it was a really important project and we were looking at what are different drug designs that could help prevent type 2 diabetes, it was so far removed from patients. And I found myself volunteering on the side while I was in graduate school and I was in the Bronx. So I was actually really fortunate to have the opportunity to work with a lot of elementary schools in the area and we kind of helped fill the gaps with their science curriculum just because funding was really low at the time. And I just loved working with people and I'm a talker. So, um, at that moment I was kind of like, I really need to go on a clinical path. And whether it was divine intervention or luck, you know, I don't really know. But, um, my pathway to becoming a PT was I was also fortunate enough to meet my husband at a wedding. And he, uh, is the son of a physician and he's a world renowned physiatrist. He was president at the time of the American Spinal Injury Association. And, uh, I was thinking about going to med school. And I don't know if it was because he thought, well, my son is about to go into a lot of debt, or, uh, uh, if he just really was doing the altruistic thing and thought, you have a personality more for PT than you do for medicine. Because I was telling him, I really want to be with people. And he said, medicine has completely changed and you won't see your patients as long as you think you will. So he, um, got me an interview at Texas Woman's University in Houston. And because I already had my PhD, I became faculty while I was in PTC.

Speaker A: So

Speaker B: you talk about being in an awkward situation. So I was on, you know, on a Monday, I was teaching physiology to the people in my class, and on a Tuesday, I was getting really humbled when I was practicing goniometry. I didn't know what I was doing. So, um, that was, that was a wonderful experience. But it was great because, um, my education was completely paid for. So, um, now when I deal with students who are having all this debt, it really hits home because I had zero debt and was able to be in love with this career. So, yeah, so that, that's the Sky Donovan origin story.

Speaker A: So you graduate then from that university, you're a physical therapist. And so what's your first position?

Speaker B: So my first position is practicing in the clinic. Um, so it was really interesting because I was part of this program that existed, um, in the early 2000s, where how I actually came to go to Texas Women's University is they were part of a grant because it was another time period where there was a huge faculty shortage in PT programs. So they said it's really challenging to get physical therapists to then go and get a PhD because of the capti rule. So they said, why don't we do the opposite? So it said, why don't we take a couple of PhDs and put them through PT school? So then they would do this longitudinal. They would follow us after we graduated. And of our cohort. So there was, I think, four universities that participated. There was about 10 of us on that grant. I was the only one that became a practicing clinician. So I don't know if that was a fail or if that was. But it was unique because all of the rest of them, and they still are working at research one institutions doing rehabilitation research. So very needed in the field. Um, but I went the clinical route because I loved what I was doing. So, um, I worked in an outpatient sports medicine and orthopedics practice for two years and loved every minute of it. Um, then I got my ocs, and at that time we had moved to Arlington, Virginia, and there was an opening for, um, an adjunct position. And I was like, you know, I sort of do have this PhD on the side and I should use it. So I worked as an adjunct. And then I was like, oh, I do really like teaching. So from then on, I stayed in academia and I practiced, you know, one or two days a week, because I also felt really strongly about, you know, I was a relatively new practicing physical therapist. So I didn't want to teach a class and say, well, I've only ever seen five patients. So it was really important to me too. And I worked at a place where I could teach four days a week and practice one day a week. So I did that for about 10 years. Um, and then, as things have it, you sort of move up in leadership. And then I had to. Now I only practice, uh, pro bono work. So.

Speaker A: Okay, and so how does. What was your introduction into APTA then? How did you get that?

Speaker B: So, similarly, um, I also, uh, moved around. So I, um. After I was in, uh, the Washington, D.C. area for about two years, my husband had to relocate for his work. So I moved to San Diego and. And I was teaching in a, uh, university in Orange county. And they had a really, really good relationship with the local district as well as apta, California cpta. So, um, I got involved there and, um, really because my colleagues were telling me how wonderful it was and how it would really open up opportunities in terms of developing my professional skills as well as meeting colleagues in the process profession. Because again, I was kind of a late comer to pt. Um, so that was my introduction, was working at the district level. I was like the program planning chair, um, for the Southern California District. And then when I, um, moved back, I had sort of a choice. I was in Arlington. So Alexandria is four miles from my house. Richmond is. Should only be 90 minutes, but it can take up to two and a half hours. So it just made sort of more sense to me. Instead of going to the state level, it was. It was easier. And I had very young children. It was easier for me to volunteer in Alexandria. So that was kind of how I started, um, working with, uh, APTA national. And I started out as a section programming chair for the Academy of Education and then just m. Fell in love with it and met amazing people.

Speaker A: So how long did you live in Southern California?

Speaker B: I was there for four years.

Speaker A: So how did the Jersey girl.

Speaker B: Oh, I did not do well there.

Speaker A: It's a very different, uh, area. It

Speaker B: was very different and I really enjoyed it because I love being outside. And it was just go. I mean, I was in San Diego. Like, it was gorgeous. They

Speaker A: have the best weather.

Speaker B: They have the best weather. Um, but it was a really different sort of departure. I mean, just, you know, I think I was everybody's Jersey friend when I was out there. So, um. But I loved it. I met some incredible friends who I. I still have in my life. And it was a wonderful, wonderful place to raise kids at a young age because we could be outside every single day.

Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. So now you're at Marymount University, and so you're working with APTA as well. So you started out as just a faculty. Just a faculty member. Yep. Rank and file

Speaker B: faculty member.

Speaker A: Yeah. And then you, uh. How do you go from faculty member to dean? That's, uh. Not everyone does that.

Speaker B: So I was fortunate enough to come into a role to be the chair of the program. And I was the chair for six years. And, um, that was wonderful. I actually really loved that. I think it is the hardest job in academia because you are one foot in leadership, one foot in management. So, um, you're doing all the grunt work and you're trying to lead strategy at the same time and you're teaching classes. So shout out to everyone who's a program chair. Um, and then as Sort of things happen. Um, the dean, um, that we had retired.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So then we had an interim position. And I don't know if you've noticed, but, um, the higher education landscape is a bit tricky right now. So budgets are constrained, um, there is a lot of merging of universities and programs and there's also downsizing that's happening inside of universities. So the opportunity arose where the university needed a dean at an interim level because the dean had retired. So I moved in on the interim level. Right. Saves a lot of money on cost. I had already been at the university for 16 years, so I sort of knew systems in place and I, I suppose I did an okay job because then I was offered the permanent position six months later. And I really never ever thought I would be a dean. That wasn't something that I really was, um, you know, ascribing to be or I was not trying to take the steps in order to do that. But I just, I absolutely love the university. We're very mission focused, we are embedded within the community and I am so blessed to work with the most amazing faculty and students. So I felt that at that time we needed a lot of stability at the university. So sometimes you just also have to say yes to things that may not feel comfortable. Um, but if other people trust you to do them, sometimes you have to listen to them. Um, so yeah, I'm two years in. Um, I haven't destroyed it yet.

Speaker A: So what schools are underneath you then? Because it's more than just physical therapy, correct?

Speaker B: Yes,

Speaker A: yes. So what other schools are you overseeing as dean?

Speaker B: So if you think about all the sort of feeders. So I have undergraduate programs and I have graduate programs. So everything from undergrad and health sciences. And then that has sort of a pre professional track, a public health track, a pre physical therapy track, and then I have so the college's health and education. So then I have all the undergraduates who are going to do like K through 12 primary education, um, as their career choice and then all the graduate schools. I have physical therapy, we have a post professional occupational therapy degree that's online. Um, we have speech language pathology, we have public health and we have clinical mental health counseling and then all of nursing, so BSN all the way to dnp.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And then I have education, so I have a master's in education and uh, educational doctorate. So the edd. So it's a lot, but I love it. And I've learned so much about nursing and I've learned so much about clinical mental health counseling. And it was so great to. So we put the programs underneath one umbrella at the college because of the downsizing that I mentioned. And it didn't make inherent sense, but we did it to collapse them because they're all accredited. And it was like, well, okay, at least the associate dean and some of the UM staff that are in the colleges, they can kind of help each other because they all speak the same language. Um, but it has been just an amazing confluence of, of thinkers because we call ourselves the helping professions. So it's so great because when we're trying to make changes in PT education, I can talk to somebody who's in charge of the EDD program and it's in organizational leadership. So it's been fantastic. Yeah.

Speaker A: So from a leadership perspective then I would think that in the PT school you're dealing a lot with students. You're having that interaction, you get to know them all, they know you. I would assume that in this dean position you're dealing with more of the university hierarchy and the funders and the community support and all that. So, uh, was that a tough transition or do you still feel like you did have some contact with students?

Speaker B: I am probably the most unlike Dean Dean you will ever meet. So my door is open all the time. So that's actually like a challenge that I've had because I miss being with the students and I physically was relocated to a different campus. So I'm now in the same building as our nursing program. And I walk into the classroom all the time whenever I have like an opportunity because their simulation labs are there. So I'm like, hi. And they're like, what are you doing? I'm like, can I help do anything? Um, I really miss being with the students, but I do try to embed myself as much as I possibly can. Um, I have always been trying to fundraise because I work for a private institution and the students that we attract, we're the only Hispanic serving institution in the state of Virginia. Um, and we have our student population, we're so fortunate is a majority minority. So right now our set of first year students, we're over 40% that self identify as coming from marginalized communities. So I have always felt like our tuition costs are high. Like I've always been fundraising, I've always been beating the pavement. Um, even when I was a rank and file faculty member. So it was just now it's sort of on a bigger scale. Um, and I just really had to do a lot of personal growth because now I can't always just want to Give money to the profession that I love the most. Right. I have to. I have to be looking for money for nursing and clinical mental health counseling and education. I'm very fortunate because those are all workforce shortage areas. So that's been a really interesting transition as I've kind of thrown myself into some committees locally that are looking at workforce shortages across the state. So that's sort of been a very good, um, learning opportunity for the work I do for apta. Um, so. So, yeah, so I'm. I'm stretching myself. Um, but it's work that I really love and it's for a cause that I believe in. So even though I'm distanced from the students, um, I still find joy in it every day.

Speaker A: I think it's interesting when we are in a profession like physical therapy, and those of us that are physical therapists, we're probably pretty narrow focused and in a silo, and it's all about what happens to physical therapy. But now you have exposure to these other disciplines, other professions. And so what have you learned from nursing and speech pathology and some of the other things that you. Overseeing that helps you now as an advisor and, uh, a key player in.

Speaker B: Oh, it's been amazing. Right? So, Capti, if I bring it back to that, you know, they have the standard that everybody has participate in a professional education and interprofessional collaboration. And now that I'm in this role, it is so fun to just say, oh, you're doing this, we're doing this. How can we work this together? And, um, like a really great example that we have is we have a pro bono free services, clinical mental health, um, counseling center for the county. And it was like, well, we have these clients who are coming in and their number one need is they need clinical mental health counseling. And they've had trauma. And it's like, well, actually, why don't we also have physical therapy there? And they can do screening when they're waiting in the waiting room. And then we have nursing there, and nursing is helping with any kind of medication needs that they have because clinical mental health counselors don't prescribe. So just that. And then we've actually had some really interesting things happen where we've had clients who also have children that have needs. So we've had our education services go there and work with the kiddos and speech language pathology. And, um, I have to give a shout out to our speech language pathology program. Um, their whole thread is justice based and it's communication as a human right. And just having that as something we say out loud in our college, then it really is like, movement is a privilege, communication is a human right. You know, having the capacity to have clear thoughts. Right. Having access to education. Like, so all of those things kind of are drivers. Um, so it has. It has taught me so much, and I feel like every day is a gift when I get to work with these colleagues.

Speaker A: And it seems like such a team approach. Oh, yeah. Which is great for, uh, physical therapy students coming through and they see that team approach. Because I think we can all agree that, uh, the bigger your team is and the more aspects of health you're touching at once is helpful.

Speaker B: Yeah, agreed. And I think it's really helped them sort of see and me, because I used to like to think physical therapy, we can do it all. Right. Because I'm like, I actually am trying to do trauma informed care. And I think that I'm really in touch with my patients and their community needs, and I can hopefully build a relationship with them. That's one of the great things about our profession. So I know how they're getting to the clinic. Maybe I could help them with transparency needs or I know about their family. But now I sort of have this lens of like, oh, wow. If I build this team that you say, Steve, it's like they are experts in their area and I'm an expert in my area. And how wonderful is it for our community members to have the experts instead of me trying to do it all and I might not be doing all of it. Great. Um, so that has really been, um, really eye opening for me. And it's wonderful to see other people thrive in their own professions, too.

Speaker A: Yeah. I'm interested now, too, that you became an APTA board member. And some people are very ambitious and they think, okay, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? So now you're vice president. Was that something that you aspired to be when you first came on or did someone. It's

Speaker B: kind of a theme in your arm, so I will tell you that. Um, so I have a mentor. We sort of talked about this before, before we came on. So Connie Hauser and I had the great fortune to sit next to her at a. I volunteered for the Centennial committee. I live very close by, and I knew there was going to be a lot of events that were happening locally, so I thought, well, maybe they need someone who also is local and that could sort of help celebrate the centennial. And Connie sat right next to me and sort of took me under her wing. And I Had never wanted to be on the board. It was never even an idea that entered into my head. And I think people know, like, I didn't kind of come up the traditional path. I wasn't a dream delegate. I wasn't a leader in our state chapter. And, um. But sometimes when you have someone that has that impact on your life and they believe in you.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So I. She put my name forward. I was fortunate to get slated. And Connie is a wonderful woman, and she also is somebody that I never want to let down. So I said, connie, there's no way I'm winning. But if you believe in me, I'm going to show you that I'm going to try really hard because you put your neck out for me. So. So I'm gonna do my part. And then, wouldn't you know, I got elected and love being a director. Absolutely love it. It is wonderful to work on a team. I keep saying the word team. That's really what makes me get up in the morning. Um, and then the vice presidency was opening. At the time, we had a president who was running, and I had very different and complimentary skills to the, uh, incumbent president. So I thought I could help move us forward in a different way because we had a different skill set and so gave it a shot to run for vice president.

Speaker A: I think it's. There's a lot of things you said in there that make me think of, you know, leadership positions and how we do it. So I've said this many times on this podcast where people think I'm. I'm just being too humble. But, you know, I felt like I was kind of a reluctant leader, you know, in the sense that I didn't, you know, think, oh, I want to be the CEO of this company, or, oh, I want to do this. It's just. But when you run into people like you said that believe in, you know, and, um, I would just acknowledge, too, that Connie Hauser was a mentor of mine in the private practice section when I was a young board member, and she's phenomenal. But, uh, when somebody sponsors you like that, and now that you're in a position where you can sponsor people, uh, you know, that's how we get the right people in the right seats of the bus.

Speaker B: Yeah. No, I agree. And that's what I look forward to next, is sponsoring other people.

Speaker A: Yeah. So we're here at the, uh, at the, uh, APTA Payment Advocacy Summit. So, you know, we've been talking about payment forever, and it's on everybody's mind what do you feel like at this conference here, what things do you hear that give you maybe hope or optimism that we're doing the right things and we're heading in the right direction?

Speaker B: I had some great conversations yesterday. So as the vice President, I am also the chairman of our Public Policy and Advocacy Committee. So we have a new charge this year, which we, um, talked with our CEO and said, you know, we have this great summit coming up. Is it okay if we, like, have some meetings with people? And he's like, yeah, absolutely. So in our charge this year for um, PPAC was everybody, I think, knows we do every two years the public, uh, policy priorities document that aligns with new Congress at the federal level. We've never done one at the state. We've had so many wins. All of our state chapters have had incredible wins over the past 18 to 24 months. So Justin and, um, you know, Aaron Bishop, who's the vice president of Federal affairs, they, they said we should really consider doing one at the state. And we had heard people, Graham Sessions, PPS meetings, orthopedics, like lots of our partners were saying it would be great if we had a state priorities framework. So we had a small group work on one and we brought it here. It's completely in draft format and we had what we called office hours. It's very dean like, uh, and we had, I don't, I think 30 people showed up in the morning session and then we had. After the sessions were over, we had one at 5 o' clock in the afternoon and we had another 15 people show up. And their feedback was incredible. And it really gave me hope that we can see this groundswell of change at the states. And if we can get people working together and learning from each other and really it's gaps in communication, that's what has become really clear to me. So how can APTA make it easier for people to learn what other people are doing? How are other people failing? Where are the synergies that exist? And then hopefully that will cause, you know, not only one state has a win, but a region has a win. And then maybe we can start to flip and get things to move at the federal level. So I have been highly encouraged here and I think this was a great meeting time. Uh, the layout, how we have really had wonderful speakers and the types of, um, learning opportunities, but so much time to just also talk with one another.

Speaker A: Yeah, be able to

Speaker B: network

Speaker A: is always important. And, you know, putting on a conference like this is a big deal and people pay money to come and they take times out of their practice and their lives to do it. So you want to make sure you provide a good, um, content and good value for your dollar, so to speak. And it's all about information and knowledge because we always, you know, whether it's specific to your state or specific to your practice setting or whatever, we tend to think in silos. And so we need to see the bigger picture.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I can just say, like, one other thing that's been fantastic. So I go to a lot of events with apta. It's my favorite thing to do. There are so many people here that I don't know, which is amazing. And I'm like, there's different people in this room. So if that amplifies all of the efforts that are going on, that's what we want. Right. So, um, I'm really very optimistic for what the next steps are going to be.

Speaker A: So. So this is a podcast. And, uh, I've been doing this for nine and a half years, I think now, or something like that. But I remember who I talked to first because, uh, and that was Jimmy McKay, because he was one of the first ones to do it. Now I hear a story that he came to you as a student and said, hey, I'm thinking about doing this. Everyone else told him he was crazy, but you encouraged him. Is that a true story?

Speaker B: It's a true story. Yeah. So Jimmy was a second year student and he came to the next conference. That was a conference that we used to have, people that know that. And, um, I mean, he was a radio DJ before he came to PT school. And he's larger than life and just a, uh, really great personality. And he went to a talk and then went up to the bar to the speaker and said, I didn't understand a word you said. That sounded cool. So then he was like, you know, this thing happened and I really think there'd be an audience to get these really impressive geniuses to kind of bring it down a notch and have a wider audience. And it was one of those things where he was a second year student, he was in the grind, he was starting his first clinical. But nothing against my colleagues.

Speaker A: Uh,

Speaker B: I happened to be in the position of the chair at the time. And if you can capture a student, a colleague, a faculty member and a staff administrator and they have that spark and they are sitting there in front of you, who am I to say, you can't do this right? And I am just a person of abundance. I'm like, if this is going to make you happy, Then all the rest of the parts of your life will probably improve as well. And it's. Maybe it'll help you with time management. I don't know. Right. But I mean, uh, all I know is that if I don't work out every day, you do not want to be around me. So I get that about people. And I. And I also think PT needs people like that. If we're all the same and we're all clinicians, then we're not gonna move the needle. So I had never heard an idea like that, but he was so excited when he was talking about it. Like, how could I not say, do it? How can I help you?

Speaker A: Well, it's. We all learn in different ways. And I think, you know, when I look back on, uh, when we started the gram session, same thing, we just needed some formats to. To talk about things. Even if it's just verbally throwing out ideas and bouncing things off each other and whatever. It's how a lot of us learn. And at the time, apta, not as a criticism, but was very structured in their meetings and the House of Delegates and all that. They're very formal of how you speak and talk, and most of the best, uh, discussions, uh, were in the bar afterwards. Right. So how do we bring that to the. The masses so that we can learn from each other? So that's why I think podcasting is really beneficial that way. Um, although when Jimmy started, I think he was one of the originals. I think Karen Litzy was early too. Um, and I came a little bit later. And now, you know, everybody has a podcast, but it's the way a lot of people learn. And so it's very powerful.

Speaker B: It is. It's powerful. It's totally like you. You described it perfectly. It's a different format. It's more relaxed and casual, and you can do it while you're working out. Right. I mean, when you talk about time management, um, and I was just reading something, it was a neuroscience article, and it was just fascinating about you need these times when your brain is kind of idle, but that's when your creativity sparks. So it really has been a game changer for me to listen to all different types of podcasts, things completely outside of the field, too. Uh, at the same time when I'm going for a walk or when I'm working out, because it makes my brain think in a different way, and it's sort of when I get all of my ideas. So I applaud the work that all of you have done in podcasts

Speaker A: and I think it goes in different directions. You don't anticipate. Like, when I started, it was almost all physical therapy, because that was who I knew and exposure, whatever. And then they've got a lot of business people involved, and so we got that. And then I heard from pts, they're saying, well, we like to hear about business and other things besides PT to help us in our practices. Okay, that's great. And now, you know, even though it was. Maybe every other one was PT and healthcare, and now it's, it's, you know, gosh, I would guess that it's even 9 to 1 business versus PT, but yet a lot of PTs get a lot out of going outside the profession.

Speaker B: Well, I mean, business is where it's at. Right? It's like, I'm also a big, uh, follower of the Harvard Business Review and all other different ideas podcasts and things like that. Um, so I agree with you. Can I ask you a question? Can I flip the script? Um, I have heard that people say to podcasters, and I'm wondering if you were ever asked this by a naysayer. Well, this is a great idea, Steve, but you're going to eventually run out of people to talk to. Have you ever heard that before?

Speaker A: Uh, a few times, but I will say that's not true.

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker A: Because there's so, like, people say, why do you do this? I mean, to be honest, I don't make a dime on this. Right. So why do you do this? And so many interviews and whatever. And the honest answer is, because every time I do an interview, I learn something new. I learn. And that's all people want. You know, they want to learn. And so. No. And now, as you're in it longer and you've been around a while and people recognize you now, um, I have to turn away way more interview opportunities than I take because there are just so many people that want to share what they know and experience. And so, um, there's not.

Speaker B: Right. No shortage of interesting people.

Speaker A: Right. For sure. Well,

Speaker B: thank you for what you're doing.

Speaker A: And people are amazing. I mean, it's like I've interviewed, you know, so the theme of this is leadership, and so we focus on that a little bit, a lot. But I've interviewed, um, business owners, healthcare, uh, executives, singer songwriters. I interviewed Pizziolo. Uh, I've interviewed all these people because leadership goes through everything. And so it doesn't matter what you do. There's a leadership component to it. And so we can all learn from that for sure. Tell us a little Bit about the board at apta. Now, uh, I talked a little bit about this with Kyle, and in the sense that now you have tons of experience, you've been in all kinds of board meetings and all kinds of things. And so you understand that, uh, land, uh, what am I trying to say? Landscape. Landscape, yes. So not everyone has that. They get excited about apta. They want to contribute, they want to serve, so they run and they get on the board, but they don't have. Have that experience. So how do you, as an experienced person like that, you and Kyle and other leaders on the board, um, bring others along so they know how to be a more effective board member.

Speaker B: And I would say, um, you know, it's, ah, it's always an evolution. And I think the, the greatest thing that we try to do, um, because Kyle and I now and Bill McGehee were the longest standing that have been on the board. Um, Kyle's been on one year longer than me. Um, so you're right. We do sort of have the historical perspective, but it is really trying to help that board member find their voice because there's a reason why the nominating committee and the delegates elected them. And it's not to fit into some molds. I mean, certainly there are some, you know, customary, you know, like, we all have to follow sort of good meeting rules and hygiene, and we try not to have one person, you know, talk too much at any particular meeting. And we want to hear different ideas. But it is also saying, like, feel comfortable, like, bring your perspective. You know, don't, don't shy away from saying a hard thing that you just think because somebody may disagree with you. Um, but it is, it is a culture shift for sure. Um, there were some customs when I joined the board, um, that I, because like I said, I kind of came from the outside. I was an insider in pt, but not sort of of the pedigree of getting onto the board. Um, and I was very pleased that it was, it was a welcoming place that people said, you know, just be you M. And it's also a place of learning, like you said. I think if people come out of curiosity is the biggest thing for me. Right. And it's like a lot of people come in, ah, rightly so, with assumptions. What is it like to be a board member? What do I need to know? And like, I've watched the board for many years and this is what I assume what you do. So I think if you come in with that learning mindset and that curiosity, that's the biggest thing that we can do as an orientation for people, um, to just say, let us hopefully challenge some of the assumptions that you have. But at the same token, we want you to challenge the things that you're hearing in here. So it's this great sort of like healthy tension, I guess, um, because you don't really know what happens in the boardroom until you get in there.

Speaker A: Yeah, sure. So when you, you had mentioned earlier that you didn't necessarily think, oh, I want to be in this leadership position and do this, and it just kind of evolved. But now you're in this leadership position. When you look back on it, uh, what is, what has surprised you the most about being in these leadership positions? Whether it's the dean or on the, the vice president of APT or whatever, these are big, uh, time consuming, time suck type of positions. And when you look back on that, what do you think of. Wow, this is worth it.

Speaker B: Thanks. That's a really great question. I appreciate that. I think the thing that probably surprises me the most, if I look back at Little sky or Younger Sky, I don't know. I don't know if I was ever little,

Speaker A: um,

Speaker B: uh, height wise. Yeah. So, um, I think I had a perception that you need to know everything to be in that position. And I was like, like when I was a rank and file faculty member and I was like, my dean knows everything. And when I was a, I am an APTA member, but not on the board. And I was like, the board members know everything. What has surprised me is how much you, you definitely learn along the way, but you don't have to know everything. You have to ask the right question questions and you have to find the person that does know everything. So I feel like I have been able to kind of grow into my strength as a connector, um, in all of these positions. So I certainly do not know everything as the dean, but I know the people that you should talk to who do know everything and kind of the same on the board. And I've loved, and you said, you know, they're big positions. I never, almost never feel tired because both of these jobs that I have, volunteer role and dean role, they feed off of one another because I get to learn so much and I'm very, very driven. That's why I stayed in college. I never left. Um, I'm very driven by waking up every day and seeing like, what can I make out of this day and what can I learn and who can I meet? So both of these also allow me to kind of fill that my super capital E. Bold, extrovert. Um, so that aligns well as two. Um, but yeah, it's been wonderful. It is a lot of work, but I love doing it because I love learning.

Speaker A: I love your answer because it's so common. And I remember this when I became a CEO at a fairly young age. And, you know, imposter syndrome is real. And you go in there and you just think everyone expects you to know the answer. But as I coach clients and, and whatever, it's like you don't. You described it perfectly. You need to be a connector. You need to have a network. You need to know who does know and then connect those people and do it. And, uh, I think some of the best language a leader can use sometimes is, I don't know, but we're going to find out or we'll figure it out together, or let's talk about it and it'll come to us. You know, people are afraid to do that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, but I think you're exactly right that, you know, I think the scariest leader is the person who does think they have all the

Speaker B: answers. Right, Agreed.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, uh, that's the opposite.

Speaker B: And you hit the nail right on the head. It's a total power shift. It's hard. I personally don't think it's hard to say. I don't know. But I remember vividly the moment where I knew that that was okay to say it. And I was 22 years old and I was in graduate school and we had these scary meetings every week. I mean, I was a first year grad student. And you had to go in front of your whole lab and you had to talk about the research that you'd done the week before. And there was a woman in the lab, she was probably 25 at the time, and she went in and guns a blazing, I did this. This, uh, leads to this. And. And I just sat there and I was like, wow, she is. And she's working on a different niche product than I was. And I was like, she is so smart. Oh my gosh, this is amazing. Like, and answered every single question afterwards. Thankfully, I had a good mentor. I went, and I was scared because I had to go the next day and I went to the mentor and I said, oh, my gosh, I don't know the answers. I got all these results. I don't know what to do. And she said, you do know that the woman that went today gave all the wrong answers. Right? And I go, I did not. And she goes, she said with a lot of confidence, and she said, and you're not working on that end of the project, so you wouldn't even know. And I was like, oh. So she said to me in that moment and she said, it is better to say I don't know than it is to give the wrong answer. So 22 year old me was like, got it. But I don't think there's enough people that tell you at a young age that it's okay to say I don't know.

Speaker A: Exactly. And I think the other thing that you mentioned there too, which I really believe in as well, is that the titles that we have for each other in these positions sometimes aren't true. I love the word facilitator because I think when you get to a certain level, uh, because you don't have all the answers, that's pretty much what you do. You're a facilitator. You're facilitating this discussion and that discussion and getting somebody, uh, that knows, who do you know out there, who's the expert? Let's bring them into the room and let's talk about it. So you're facilitating those decisions. You're not telling everybody what the decision is.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, I had a really interesting thing happen just three weeks ago at work. And uh, I knew I was coming here. And so my reporting structure is there's all of these school directors and then each school has multiple programs. And one of the school directors said, oh my gosh, I have all these things that like are going to happen while you're away. And I said, you're a leader. And I said, you should feel empowered to make these decisions. I said, and if there's any like, resources that you need or you want me to try to ask you a bunch of questions to help you make the right decision, I'm like, I'm happy to do that. But I was like, you're the decision maker. And she was like, oh, so sometimes just saying those things out loud to people. And I said, I just am, um, the one on the hook for the responsibility. I said, but I, I back what you're going to do and I believe in you. And you know, we just have to keep, I think what trips people up and it tripped me up really early on too was losing the focus of who your audience is. Yes. Like when I first became a program chair, I mean, I still do things wrong every day of the week. I could tell you about something I did wrong this morning at 7:30, but um, I thought my audience was my co workers. And I was like, okay, I Have to make sure the curriculum is great and, and that they're all happy and that I'm leading them and we're making a great work team. We're moving in the same direction and we're doing. You're aligned with the university's mission. And then I realized, oh, no, no, it's a student. Right. So I had to really take a step back. So that was a good learning environment for me, too, to find my true north again and say, like, okay, who actually am I responsible to? It's the student.

Speaker A: That's a great point. In anticipation of our discussion today, uh, we've covered a lot of ground. But what haven't I asked you that I should.

Speaker B: Oh, what haven't I asked you? That's a great question. I, um, totally thought you were going to ask me about a failure or something like that, but I kind of just gave you one. No, I thought it was super comprehensive. Um, and, uh, it was just such a delight to be able to talk to you a little bit.

Speaker A: Well, I agree. And, uh, it's been a great discussion. At this point in the interview, I always ask my guests the same common question. So that question is in relation to leadership. What is a pearl of wisdom you could leave us with today?

Speaker B: I just. I generally be humble and love what you do.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well said. Yeah,

Speaker B: I mean, it's that simple for me. So I just. If you don't love what you're doing, do something else.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thanks, guy. Really appreciate your time today. It was good. And, uh, um, I'm very, uh, appreciative for all you do for our profession. And, uh, it's great you're in these roles that make a difference, and we appreciate the sacrifice and the hard work for that.

Speaker B: Well, thank you. And it's only due to people like you that I'm able to be doing this. All the groundwork that you laid for us. So thank you.

Speaker A: Okay, well, thank you.

Speaker C: Thank you for listening to another episode of Profiles and Leadership. To listen to all my interviews, subscribe to Profiles and Leadership with Steve Anderson on Apple Podcasts, itunes, and many other popular podcast platforms. Some of these interviews are on video, and you can search YouTube for profiles and Leadership with Steve Anderson. You can also access the entire library of interviews on my website, orange.coaching.com and that is orangetheword.coaching.com and go to the media center and click on Podcasts or Video Gallery. You can also enter the website from pilpodcast.com. Sa.