29 - Ueno: making technology more human

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hi, I'm Emma, head of content at Ask Us for Ideas. And on this episode, we're chatting with Halle Thorlifsson. Hallie is the founder of digital agency Ueno, which was acquired by Twitter in 2021. Having worked with pretty much every single major tech brand out there, we're talking Google, Apple, Airbnb, Slack, netfl and the

Speaker A: work was always the most important thing. Uh, it was not a financially driven agency. I was the only owner and I was just really passionate about every single project being the best that it could be.

Speaker B: You might know Halle's name because of Ueno, or you might know it because of a very public spat between him and Elon Musk. Just two years after Twitter acquired the agency and Halley's employment sadly came to an end. He, he's now back though. He's running Ueno 2.0 and he's taking a very different approach to the work he's making and, um, the clients he's making it for. We spoke about his experience of burnout.

Speaker A: I was tired of running the agency. I'd really not taken a break since I started and I was not really excited anymore for a lot of the work.

Speaker B: The lessons he took from being brand side and how we can start to rebuild what's a fairly difficult relationship between people and the digital world.

Speaker A: With every project I learn something new. Especially now with things that are moving so fast on the tech side.

Speaker B: So, Hallie, you've had some interesting times. Uh, you were running your own business, Ueno, that was bought by Twitter. You were there for a while and now you're back to Ueno again. Is that quite an unexpected outcome for you? Because I'm assuming you thought you were going to be at Twitter for the foreseeable.

Speaker A: Well, the plan was to be at Twitter for, uh, four years at least, and I think it was about two. So it was cut short. But I still got to spend a fair amount of time there.

Speaker B: What was your experience working there like? Was it like seeing things from the other side?

Speaker A: It's because in my early days, um, as a designer, I worked in house here in Iceland, uh, at companies and then, but for the last, I don't know, 15, 16 years, um, prior to joining Twitter, I had been on the outside, first as a freelancer, um, and then as um, sort of running Ueno and us working with a bunch of mostly tech clients and then being on the inside was very, very different. Um, it is, I think, something that everyone has to try because you get a, I think a much better Understanding of the complexities of internal politics and um, when you're on the outside, you don't really understand obviously what's happening, uh, why things move at the pace that they move at, um, and how decisions get made. And it is, um, I think it's healthy for everyone too, that is in this field that wants to be, um. If they, you know, if you want to be on the outside, I think you have to try being on the inside as well.

Speaker B: What was the biggest shock?

Speaker A: Um, I mean I was expecting as an agency, you have to move fast. I think, uh, I think a lot of companies don't really appreciate that internal time costs money in the way that they understand that external time costs money. Because if you're paying someone every month from a specific budget that you know that you kind of notice that versus internal time is often viewed as almost free. Um, and I think that's, you know, that creates um, a, an apathy for moving, you know, against. For moving slowly. So you don't really notice how things, how slow things move. And, and you don't really appreciate, um, that all these people all this time, uh, to make decisions is not really beneficial to you and to the, to the company. Um, and also I think as people, I think we're all kind of, uh. Well, most of us are afraid of risk. And taking a decision in a company is risky because if you make the wrong one, you can get blamed. Versus not taking a decision is often seen as like. That doesn't seem to create the same kind of, of pushback. And so it's often much safer just to not take any decision which M is obviously ultimately going to, um, get you in trouble as a company if nobody makes decisions.

Speaker B: Did it feel like a risk at the time that you joined Twitter because Ueno was such a highly regarded, exceptional digital agency? You know, you're kind of the digital agency of the moment. And then you gave that up to move to Twitter. Did that feel like a risk for you personally and creatively?

Speaker A: Um, uh, it was the right decision. I realized that, um, uh, with the information I had, it was the right decision. Uh, we looked at a few different options. I was tired of running the agency. I had really not taken a break since I started. Um, and I was not really excited anymore for a lot of the work. And so the options that I looked at was either stepping away by myself and having someone else run it. Um, uh, but I was. I knew myself well enough that that would be very, very hard for me and the person taking over. I would breathe into probably breathing the other neck and it wouldn't be enjoyable to anyone. Um, I looked at, uh, there were a bunch of holding companies that were interested, uh, that did not seem like a path that would be good for either me or anyone else because I would have had to stay again and that would have not been great. And the people, um, that were working with me would have to have seen this thing kind of destroyed, which is usually what happens when holding company comes in. Um, and then I looked at a few different external buyers like Twitter, and we had worked with a lot of interesting people, but Twitter was really, uh, at that time, the place that I felt like this is the right move. Um, for various reasons. It meant that people would land in a job, that people would be well compensated for their time spent. Everyone was able to get a fairly big raise. There was bonuses, there was all sorts of things. Um, and the challenge was exciting. So I felt like this is the thing to do. Um, so I didn't think about it as a risk. Um, I was done with what I was doing and so I just thought this is the best decision.

Speaker B: I suppose it's maybe hard to remember now or hard to go back to those times, but if we opened a little time traveling portal and went back to when you joined Twitter, which was what, Halle? 2021, is that right?

Speaker A: 2021?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it was, it was the digital product of the moment.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I mean, I remember myself, my news consumption of my days kind of revolved around opening up Twitter and seeing what was on there. And even now I still feel the sad space in my life sometimes that I can't do that. So. So you were joining the company at a really exciting time and it was a really pivotal digital product as well. Is that fair to say?

Speaker A: That's how I felt. Like there were so many different things going on and um, Twitter was at the center of a lot of those. Obviously Covid was happening. There was, you know, um, throughout the years, every time there's a big moment in history, everyone, uh, has gone to Twitter. And so it felt like a place that was exciting. And I was a bit user of the product as well, which I thought was, uh, it's always fun to work on something that is, um, that you understand. I think I understand and understood Twitter really, really well.

Speaker B: What was it about, Ueno, do you think that encouraged Twitter to buy. To buy you rather than someone else?

Speaker A: The year leading up to us joining, we were doing more and more projects for Twitter. Um, and I think it was interesting after the first sort of Big executive review that we had with Twitter, um, and their executives. Um, that evening I think I got a text message from one of them and asking if we were interested in being acquired. And at that time I said, uh, I passed. That was like I said, a year before, kind of we joined ultimately. But it was, uh, I think pretty apparent from the get go that this was, uh, like, at least as an agency, that we were good fit and we were doing good work. And like I said, I really enjoyed the product. And so I was deeply invested in every project that we worked on with them and felt like this is something that um, is exciting and we can do really, really well. And they felt the same way.

Speaker B: So I was talking to someone this morning about, um, about Ueno, and they said that you were the digital darlings of the time. You know, it made a lot of sense that Twitter bought you, uh, and they referred to you, Halle, as the unicorn father because you'd work with so many of these really pioneering digital first brands, I guess you could call them. And I wondered if you have a sense now, looking back, what it was that put you in that position, what made you so attractive to those brands to work with and what made Buenos work so great in that digital space.

Speaker A: I started Twitter and then I moved to, uh, San Francisco at a very, very opportune time. So it was just a time when everything was happening. I moved in 2014, um, and obviously a lot of things had gone, you know, happened in that area leading up to that. But at that time everything was busting. So we were working with Airbnb and Uber and Dropbox, um, and all these, uh, companies at the same time. And I think it was a combination of us, obviously, well, I hope doing good work. But it was also that there wasn't. And we, uh, me at that time really believed in sort of on site collaboration. So we were working really closely with these companies. And there weren't, weirdly as it sounds, this wasn't a lot of, um, uh, uh, agencies that were located in San Francisco or, you know, they were doing great work. And he was, you know, part mix of like it was an expensive area to stay and um, you know, a few other things. But you know, because of that we were able to, uh, you know, if there was a meeting, I could be there in 30 minutes if there was something happening. And we were able to get a lot of momentum really, really fast. And this is a small world. So the world got around, word got around really fast and people were moving companies and so if someone moved Somewhere else. And they worked with us, they would call us again. Um, and it just grew really, really fast. And, um, at that time I was really hungry and I was excited for every single project that came in and we were able to scale fast enough that we were able to do the work. And, um, uh, yeah, it was just. It was fun.

Speaker B: That feels like a very humble answer. You've said, well, we were in San Francisco. That was a great place to be. But obviously Ueno must have had some kind of abiding philosophy or approach to work that really resonated with these, I guess, heavily capitalized tech businesses that had a lot of ambition to grow. There's obviously the geography was important, I'm sure, but there's clearly some kind of element of chemistry or way of working that they really loved about you guys.

Speaker A: We did have a very good culture, um, and that grew by, uh, you know, in many ways. I think there was definitely cultural problems as well. But we did have a good culture when it came to, uh, creating work. And I think, uh, with the people that joined, we were able to grow that culture and we were able to, uh, do good work. And the work was always the most important thing. Uh, it was not a financially driven, um, agency. I was the only owner. And, um, I was just really passionate about every single project being the best that it could be. And it was something that everyone, I think, at the company cared about. And every single project was, I believe, handled with care and love and passion, um, and collaboration. And we were. But I think also as a part of this, you know, I know that I was. People were often surprised. I was unafraid of telling people when things were going wrong, both our people and the clients. Um, and I think that was also a mix. Uh, part of the mix that worked is, you know, we, um, you know, I had good relationships with our clients and I was, um, again, not afraid to tell them that what they were doing or how things were being done wasn't working and that we had a different idea or a different approach. And I think people appreciate that, um, they have a mix in someone that is, you know, does good work, but also cares so much about it that they are willing to speak up.

Speaker B: So a level of pragmatism and honesty

Speaker A: that maybe you don't always get, I think so. I think it's tough for, like, the bigger these agencies an agency get, it's harder for someone that isn't in the position that I was in as the founder to be that direct with people because, you know, again, a Lot of companies are kind, um, of managed by people who are afraid, um, of losing their job or making a mistake. Um, and for whatever reason, I was just not. Even though we made a lot of mistakes, I was not afraid to make them.

Speaker B: So you said you joined Twitter in 2021 and you kind of, it sounds like, reached the end of the road with the way. No, you were. You burnt out, just kind of bored of doing that work. You just wanted to change, you'd had enough, all those things.

Speaker A: Yes. Uh, I mean, it was that sort of. That last year was, uh, 2021 was the COVID year, like the big. The start of COVID And we went through a lot of, like, first really deep valleys. Um, we lost, uh, very significant amount of our work. And then everyone. And then people rushed back and we got a lot of new work and we had to scale back up, and I was just exhausted. Um, and then it was also, um, I just. I had this feeling when I was beginning that every client was interesting. And then, uh, at the end, it didn't really matter who the client was, what the project was. That's when I kind of realized when we got new projects by, you know, we got a, you know, let's say Apple called or someone called, and it will be like, in the beginning, they'll be like, oh, that's fantastic. We get to work with this huge company that I've been inspired by for a long time. And then by the end, it was. I just didn't care. And then I noticed, I recognized that I wasn't able because of that, because I didn't have that drive or that passion. There was no way that we would be able to sustain the quality of the work. Um, and so it wouldn't have been fair to anyone if we kept going. Um, but now I think, uh, you know, I worked at Twitter for two years. I worked on. I got to work on some personal projects that I really have been on the back burner for a long time. And I made a promise to myself when I. When we sold. And even though I knew that this was a possibility, sort of technically, that I could reopen it, I was never going to do that. And so it wasn't really until this past year that I thought, I'm really interested. And I think it was a mix of things. I think, um, I'd done what I wanted to do with other things. I was not burnt out or exhausted anymore. And there was also something new happening in technology that I was excited about, which was AI. Because it did feel towards the end there of, uh, the first run of 1L, that the technology wasn't interesting anymore. Um, I wasn't interested in, and I'm still not interested in crypto. Um, and, um, there were just some, you know, these things that people were excited about. I just, I wasn't, uh. And I feel with AI that there's a huge shift that is going to happen, uh, that impacts almost every aspect of our lives. And I, I think that's terrifying and exciting and I enjoy being a part of helping shape or shift something like that.

Speaker B: I wonder if at, uh, the height of Ueno, we spoke about how it was a period of these really pioneering brands. Uber, Slack, Airbnb, and you're saying that, you know, you were encouraged to reopen your agency again because now feels like another kind of surge of change maybe. Um, and that's very interesting. You know, AI has its fanatical users and it has people that are absolutely 100% against it.

Speaker A: I think I'm somewhere in the middle, which I think is helpful. You're a moderate, uh, sometimes. And then I can get excited and then I get. Look at the drawbacks. I don't know, I go back and forth. But it's interesting. That's, you know, I think that's. That's critical.

Speaker B: We've spoken a bit about the past, which is obviously important. It's been an important part of your journey. But I'm really keen to talk about now and how you're running Ueno differently from how UENO 2.0 is different from 1.0. Essentially.

Speaker A: It's. I think it's very different. Um, it is, um. It's sort of, you know, if, uh, if you have two children, they don't really have the same parents, um, because they. They're born at different times and you have different, um, different priorities in your life and, and different experiences. And so, um, this time I'm. I don't want to grow it to the size that we were before. Um, I am doing this even though the first time I ran it, I started with. I had nothing and I actually had a lot of debt. Um, and so, uh, I was always aware of. I needed, um. Even though it wasn't financially driven, I had that. I had to build up some. Some reserves and I had to do some things. This time around, I. I'm not in that position. I. I was very lucky with the sale and some other things that I've done that I'm, you know, financially, I don't have to work, um, which is, uh, which Just changes everything in your life, I think. Um, and it means that I only want to work on projects that I'm really, really, really excited about. So we turn down, um, the bulk of the work that comes in the door and just try and focus on the things that are interesting to me at least, uh, because I'm involved in every single project now, which was not the case after a while. It wasn't sustainable for me to be on every single, uh, line of work. And this time I'm only going to take on projects where I'm. Where I'm able to participate. And, uh, that changes, obviously, the size of the team. It changes how we operate. I also think we're much farther along now in terms of remote work than we were, um, 10 years ago, 12 years ago. Um, so I think everything is different and then also everything is the same.

Speaker B: I was listening to a show on BBC World Service and they were interviewing. I think he was the former CEO of Coach. I found it really interesting. He was talking about opening Coach stores in New York and how they really wanted to give people this hospitality experience. And he was talking about the 60s. And I thought, wow, nothing has changed because now we're seeing brands doing that, and it's kind of like just same old, same old. The core principles maybe of building a brand and finding your consumer and delighting them and making them become a fan of yours, sort of remain the same no matter what age you're in. Perhaps.

Speaker A: Yeah, People don't. Human nature doesn't change. Um, I think there's new technologies and there's new things, but human nature is the same. So all the same principles apply.

Speaker B: Halle, you said you only take projects now that you're really interested in. And I wonder what it is that makes them interesting for you these days.

Speaker A: It's a mix. It's, um. Usually, um, there is, uh, something interesting about the work itself. Um, and to me, that can mean a lot of different things. Um, I can get excited about something for reasons that I think not everyone understands, um, or that I can even articulate. And so I. When we start a new engagement or the potential of a new engagement, I talk to the people that we're going to be working with. And I want to try and understand, obviously, the project. And that's critical, but I also as critical, you know, I want to make sure that the people I'm going to work with are passionate about what they're doing. Um, and they. And that, um, they have ideas that are new to me, but also that they have values that I align with, um, and that is something that is critical to me because I've noticed over time that it's harder and harder for me. And I think it's partly what I mentioned before because I don't really, uh, If I don't have to work, it's very hard for me to get, you know, I don't get financially motivated. So I. It's. If I don't enjoy the project and the people, then it's very hard for me to rationalize why I would keep doing it. Um, and so, yeah, it's a mix of the project itself. You know, usually there is, like I said, almost always now there's an AI component. Um, um, but ultimately if there is a real problem to be solved that I haven't solved before, um, or worked on solving, that's usually the most exciting thing. If I feel like there is something that will actually people will want to use if we're able to crack the code, um, then that's exciting and it's more and more happening now. Um, AI is obviously just a tool, but it's allowing us to solve different types of problems in different ways and that makes a lot more things more exciting.

Speaker B: Do you think you relate to clients in a slightly different way? Having worked brand side, there are things that you think about from your time at Twitter when you're meeting with potential clients that would make you approach it slightly differently from when you were purely an agency owner.

Speaker A: Yes, I do understand their motivations. Like, you know, if someone is working internally, which is obviously all of our clients is. I understand. And can, um, sort of relate much better to their problems, which are, you know, usually these are very passionate people that care about what they're doing, but they're also in a reality of there's politics involved, there's budgets, there are timelines, there is tech debt, there is different departments that have different priorities. You know, there's all sorts of things that are sort of weighing on them. Uh, and I think just understanding that better makes me, I, uh, think a better partner to them to be able to help carry that burden, uh, with them, which I think a lot of people are looking for in agencies. Like, like our job is to make them look good and so I want to make sure that they do look good.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I feel like marketers and brands do carry a heavy burden now. There's so much, so many things for them to think about. So much pressure, so much responsibility, more channels, more of everything than there were, ah, even five or ten years ago. And I think Agencies really do become a way of managing a lot of that uh, weight that they carry.

Speaker A: I think that's, that's part of the job. And I think the um, I've also found, you know, even though I never really had much patience for it, uh, patience for it, I have less and less patience for, um, people that don't like their clients. Uh, because I think if you don't like them, there's no way you can do good work. And you don't really, you have to be able to understand what they're going through to be able to do good work with and for them.

Speaker B: Do you think the brand and agency relationship has changed much over uh, the last decade? Are brands expecting different things from agencies? Do they want to build different kinds of relationships, particularly in that digital world?

Speaker A: Yes, I think because there's so much more pressure. Um, I think there is, uh, there's more, I think everything is expected to move a lot faster. Um, there is um, also, you know, from what I've seen less and less interest in like huge holistic agency of record, um, relationships and it's more project by project and who is the best person to solve this particular thing because there are, there are agencies and partners out there that can do very, very specific things. Um, and so I think a lot of things have changed over time. And I started working on digital projects, you know, 30 years ago and there was very little experience obviously both from, you know, on my side, but also on the client side of what we were doing. Now I think this isn't really, you know, AI is new, but you know, tech driven companies is kind of every company now. And so there's a lot more experience of how to do things, how to do good work, how to work. You know, a lot of these bigger companies have worked with a lot of agencies so they understand what they're doing really, uh, at a much different level than they used to.

Speaker B: You mentioned earlier as, ah, well, turning away clients. I'm just thinking from the brand point of view, what are the things that you actually really need a digital agency for and uh, what are the things that you can do yourself with existing tools by hiring in house talent? Because I feel like that has changed as well. You know, maybe you don't necessarily 100% need a digital agency to do a website or maybe you do, depending on what it is you want to achieve.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I often tell people they shouldn't hire us. That's good for business or not us or just anyone. I think there are some things that you should be doing internally. Uh, and some things that make sense to hire an agency for um, and you kind of need to know what is sort of core to your business. Um, and, and ideally you grow that internally. Um, and then the agencies are very often partners that help speed things up, um, or fill in a gap that you couldn't, um, that doesn't make sense for you to grow internally or you haven't grown into yet. Um, and so what is happening with us on a lot of different projects is we're, we come in um, to companies and part of our job is to help obviously with the project, but we're also showcasing how to do work in the current situation, um, with the technologies that is available now. And that to me is often like the most rewarding is seeing like we are able to do, you know, hopefully good work, but we're also able to lift up the organization and help them see that there is a different way to do things and that sort of inspires them to change the way they work. Not just on our project but in general.

Speaker B: I wonder if you'd have some examples of kinds of projects or even specific projects that yes, hire your digital agency for this or no, do this yourself.

Speaker A: Uh, we get approached sometimes um, by, to um. Do I think too much? I think we have a lot of different skill sets internally and we can do all sorts of things. But I think it's tough when, if you outsource your entire product, uh, or your entire process to someone else, it becomes very hard for you as a company then to evolve that thing over time. Um, and I always, when we're talking to clients about these things, I uh, try and make them reevaluate what it is that is core to who they are and what their business is and how are they going to continue to. Because we are, you know, we're long term partners to a lot of our clients but ultimately we're an external partner. Um, and you want to have um, internal knowledge of these core things grow over time and you need to be able to own them long term. But in general I just think we are, um, it's much better when there is a collaboration between the agency and, and the internal partner, um, and that we are uh, a bridge towards a situation where they can own um, these core products and these core aspects of their brand.

Speaker B: Do you think for the most part the kinds of digital experiences and digital products that brands are building are good enough for people?

Speaker A: No, uh, no. And I think, I mean, I think that's, I mean if I didn't believe that then I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if we, uh. And I think. But again, if I rephrase that, I think that's true of everything. I think nothing is good enough. That's kind of my problem and my burden in life is I always think that there is a better way to do everything. And I'm very critical of myself and very critical of how things are done in general. And I always see like with every project I learn something new. Especially now with things are moving so fast on the tech side. Um, I realize with every project we could have done this better. Um, and I think if that wasn't the case, I think I would stop. Um, if I felt like I, if I knew exactly what I was doing, I wouldn't be doing it.

Speaker B: Did you feel like that at ah, Twitter and did you feel like that at Ueno the first time round, that every time you completed a project you were, you were still learning something new?

Speaker A: Yes, I think, uh, maybe apart from that last year of Ueno again, that's. I think that's. That that kicked into. And the thing where I mentioned before where I just didn't feel like I could continue to do it because I didn't. Maybe because I wasn't excited to begin with and probably that's a big part of it. But I also just again I was, I was burned out. I felt like we were doing the same projects over and over again. I think I felt like the problems were always the same, uh, and I didn't feel like I was learning a lot. I just felt like we can continue to do this forever. And um, whether that was true or not, I just felt that, that I wouldn't grow or learn anything new, which is very different now. I feel, um, every week, every month, there is something very big that shifts on the tech side, uh, that I feel like this could potentially change everything.

Speaker B: Do you feel broadly optimistic about that digital world now?

Speaker A: I think I have to be, um, um, I think human nature, um, if you're not optimistic about your future, I think that is the road to ruin. Um, and so uh, I think we have to believe that there is a way to make the future good. Um, because otherwise, same thing, I think we just would stop. And um, if we all stop, then obviously the future won't be good.

Speaker B: I think it's very easy. This may be especially true for me as I've got older and I can remember being a, a young teenager and the Internet was just such an exciting place to be, you know, and Then uh, the way the digital world developed. A lot of early digital products felt so exciting and so full of knowledge and so full of connection. And maybe it's just because I'm getting old and miserable, but I feel like a lot of them have withered. The promise has kind of withered on the vine and I don't think I'm alone. A lot of people feel that their digital interactions are more often than not, you know, enraging or annoying or they're just there for convenience but they become difficult. And do you think that people's relationships with digital interactions have cracked a little bit and can we fix that?

Speaker A: I think they've definitely cracked. I think we definitely haven't delivered on the promise of like the early Internet. Uh, I think there was a huge amount of optimism, uh, in the early days, you know, that we would all become hyper connected in a good way and that would lead to, you know, we would lead, you know, just we were on the road to knowledge, uh, that was always accessible to everyone and that would ultimately lead to us ascending somehow as uh, a species. And you know, that definitely hasn't happened. I think in many cases it's been the opposite. Um, um, but I kind of feel about a lot of these things as you know, you can definitely go and fight windmills and you can fight uh, progress, uh, or progress is maybe not the right word or change. Um, I just don't think it's going to be successful. And I think you have to kind of, um, this might be defeatist, but I think you have to accept reality and try and make adjustments, small adjustments within that reality, uh, to the best of your ability. Otherwise I think again we're going to run aground.

Speaker B: Halle, if you're going to give advice to people listening that are marketers or people working at brands or even fellow digital agency owners, what kind of digital world and what kind of digital interaction should they be building for people?

Speaker A: The principle that I found with 1.0, and I think it's true for us today is we um, uh, uh, we have to make technology more human. Um, I think we've built technology um, in a way that is not um, the way that the humans work. We've, you know, you interact with these things and they're not, we kind of learn how to use them and they're, they're okay. But I think we have to just continue to make these things uh, work on a much more very, in a very grounded way on a human level. So they have to have, we have to think about them as like, how do they influence our emotional state? How do they, uh, influence our, um, place in the world and how we're able to operate as societies? Uh, because I think if we don't, I think we can very easily pull the thread of the sweater so far that there is no sweater left.

Speaker B: That was Halle Thorliffson and me. Ask Us for Ideas Head of Content Emma Tucker thanks for tuning in and a quick reminder to subscribe for future episodes. If you'd like to know more about how Ask Us for Ideas introduces brands to agencies, you can find us@aufi.com and if you'd like more insight into the brand marketing and digital world, we're also on substack@askusforideas.substack.com.