26 - Culture Defined: grow slow, grow better

Speaker A: Hi, I'm Toby. And I'm Nick. And you're listening to Private Views, a podcast by Ask us for Ideas. Each episode we invite the most forward thinking brand leaders and creatives to discuss business, creativity and everything in between.

Speaker B: I think it comes down to going back to the root of communities and why they exist from the first place. It's exchange, it's collaboration, it's meetings, it's making people feel like they are part of something. And currently I think the landscape of big brands are just creating a very transactional model and they assume that all these people will follow.

Speaker A: In this episode, we sat down with Victoria Wickman, founder of creative agency Culture Define, who have worked with brands including Cheap Monday, Estrid and Monki. Their remit spans physical experiences, culture collabs and content series with Culture defines work. Ah. Deeply rooted in the idea of building community and creating better, longer term relationships with consumers. We know that community is a huge point of interest for marketers and brand leaders, so we asked Victoria why it's such a hot topic and how brands can think about connecting with people in a less immediately transactional way. We also discuss slow branding, the ever present question of immediate ROI versus lasting connections, and how brands can form better, more productive partnerships with their agencies.

Speaker C: So, Victoria, I thought you could start by telling us a little bit about Culture Define, because you're still sort of a bit of a newbie on the scene. You've been around for a few years, but what makes you guys special?

Speaker B: Yes. So Culture Define is a culture marketing agency helping brands connect with communities and culture, really. Um, we used to say that, or we're still saying that we're building brands like friends and looking at consumers as friends rather than consumers, which actually really helps when thinking about it and applying it to different touch points. So, yeah, trying to do that. Uh, we've been around now for three and a half years and yeah, I've been doing some interesting work.

Speaker C: I feel like I've quite enjoyed seeing the evolution of the creative agency tagline. I feel like they used to all be kind of much of a muchness and now I think that people are thinking about them a lot harder. And I really like the one you just said. The idea of making consumers friends, building brands that are friends.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's ultimately a big shift happening, I think in the whole wider advertising industry where, yeah, brands just become so much more than a product, um, and consumers become so much more than a consumer. And I think that's a really interesting evolution. Um, so it's about how can we build on that? And helping brands to really emphasize what

Speaker C: they should be feels much less cynical as well. And I've noticed reading through some of the briefs that brands are sending us that ask us for ideas, a lot of the brands that get referenced as inspiration are brands that have really built a lot of community, and they've done that in quite a natural way. And that seems to be a word that comes up a lot of the time, completely.

Speaker B: And I think community is such a buzzword. Right. And it's something that is, um, you know, ultimately, what is a community? Right. Um, for us, that's very much when people can really connect, um, and people can interact. And it's coming back to, I think, what community was back in the days, you know, you were not having a community just through selling a product, but you were having a community through, you know, exchanging things and sharing things and, like, inviting to different things. And I think brands get that so wrong sometimes when they think that, oh, yeah, we have a following on Instagram, like a million followers. That's our community. Like, is it really? Like, how do you define them as a community? Like, they buy your product. That's very transactional. But what else, like, what else are you giving them that is actually a community?

Speaker C: Um, I mean, I guess that's a very literal translation, isn't it? When you have a group of people who are behind you on social media, that's a very literal community. But how are you talking to brands about community in a way that really goes beyond just, I guess, usernames and in a way, invisible people. To be honest, I think it comes

Speaker B: down to that, what I said, with the kind of going back to the root of communities and why they exist from the first place. Right? It's allowing people to connect with each other and finding common grounds and making people feel less lonely. Um, it's about collaboration and helping each other and supporting each other, rather than just selling a product. And I think that is the fundamental. It's exchange, it's collaboration, it's meetings, it's making people feel like they are part of something. And currently, I think the landscape of big brands are just creating a very transactional model, and they assume that all these people will follow, but that's not really the case.

Speaker C: I was thinking about how things like, in person, book clubs have become really popular. You know, there's a lot of famous people models setting those things up. And I've also been looking at things like running clubs and hiking clubs, and there seems to be a lot of community actually Happening in the real world. And that's a big shift from 10 years ago when social media and the digital world felt really exciting. And now maybe we're all a bit burnt out from that. We want to go back to something a bit more old school possibly.

Speaker B: I think so. Like everything is happening so fast, right? And you see, um, so many things going slower. You know, fashion is going towards a slower, um, movement. The whole sustainability, everything is about slowing down. But then on social media and online everything is about speed and attention and attention spans are getting shorter and everyone is being overwhelmed, but no one is doing anything about it. Like agencies are still saying to brands to be there every day, every time on top of mind. And it's like it's going to be a massive burnout for a whole generation.

Speaker C: We'll come back to the slower approach because I think that's quite important. Um, but for brands listening, how can an agency help you build that community? Because maybe that arguably that feels a little bit outside that traditional realm of making campaigns or doing ads or doing branding or art direction, whatever it is.

Speaker B: I think that is, first of all understanding your role, um, in those communities and with your consumers, like who do you want to be and what value do you want to provide? And also in a way, how do you build that friendship? Right, that's where it starts. You will only foster a community with the people you're friends with or the people you like. And you have shared values and shared opinions and something to kind of share and collaborate on. So first of all it's defining your role, I think in that. And secondly it's understanding what are the touch points where we as a brand can add value to this community beyond just selling a product. So how can we have our people, our friends, connect with each other and create that common ground? And in terms of those touch points, I guess in more practical terms that would be physical events that are not just a big one off pop up experience that will last for a week. It is creating something that can last over time. Like what is your version of a book club or something else that people can really feel like they want to be a part of that still is relevant to your brand, still relevant to everything that you're trying to do. But just taps into a grassroots movement where your audience are authentically, without forcing it and then trying to, I think from a content perspective also just reflect that and showcase that and share that with people that are maybe not having access to those events or access to, you know, big city where you are normally having a presence. So it's like extending that beyond and making it accessible to more people, um, to engage and interact,

Speaker C: I suppose as well. If you work with an agency, they've got that really valuable outsider point of view where they can come in and maybe point some things out that perhaps you already know but you've forgotten about because you're on that day to day treadmill of working at the brand. Sometimes that outside perspective just helps you identify almost the things that might already be obvious but that you still missing completely.

Speaker B: It's about understanding where your audience and your community are without you. And um, knowing that, I think that's the first thing right, is knowing where they are, knowing how they behave, knowing how they want to be invited and knowing how they want to interact and then try to be a part of that in a very authentic way, uh, without forcing yourself onto it. But, you know, finding those shared grounds and those shared values and build something on the top of that.

Speaker C: Back to the idea of slowness, Victoria. Obviously many brands might want their community just to come into existence overnight, but I'm sure you're very familiar. So it takes time to build that. It's not something that you can. It's not like a rabbit out of a hat is. It takes time and commitment. And I was thinking about, um, I was looking at some shoes the other day and Merrill have a hiking club that they run. Uh, I think it's a women's hiking club. I was really impressed. They share roots all over the world, they have photos and it's very clear that it's something that they've put a lot of time and attention into and it's really built and grown quite naturally. Do you think it's hard for brands to embrace that sense that things are going to take a bit longer and that it's going to be slower?

Speaker B: I think it's hard, yes, because everyone wants to have return on investment and everyone wants to sell products and they want to survive. Right. That's of course they need to survive the business. And at the end of the day they're like paying staff and other people to keep their jobs. Right. So it's not an easy problem to solve. I don't think to have that long term thinking, but I guess it's trusting the process and trusting that through building things more long term you will still have a lower spend but a higher value for your customers and your future consumers because you're building something that at the end of the day becomes organic in a way when you invest long term because it's less about spending a million on a TVC ad and it's less about spending millions on billboards and a lot of paid media behind social posts and it's more about slower longevity. Work with whether that's physical events, loyalty programs, content formats that can live over time and create legacy rather than just selling a product. And that's something that will earn attention at the end of the day and of course build commercial value long term. But if you only push short term, big money, big spend, TVC ads, paid media, yes, you will have a great return on investment probably very short term for people and consumers that you might not even value as ah, high value consumers. So how do you build something that I guess adapt the same mindset as everything around sustainability, like slow fashion, slow circularity, like all of those things. How can you apply that same mindset to advertising? And it's not about not being fast in the way you do things, but it's about being considered and really I think, think of other ways where you can engage with the consumers organically over time and hopefully you will spend way less money in 10 years time than you would have if you would only have focus on short term success.

Speaker C: I think it's hard. Everyone wants to move so, so quickly. The Internet has made everything so ephemeral. And I feel that a lot of brands, they see that there's a moment, a cultural moment to tap into and they want a creative partner to help them be reactive. And that's almost one stream of work. But the stream of work you're talking about is equally as important because you're building value over the long term as you're saying, you know. And that kind of very ephemeral content I suppose is quite unlikely to capture people that are going to be your fans across the course of their life. And I'm assuming that's really what a brand wants. They want a community and they want fans and they want people that will come back to them again and again and trust them over the long term.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I think every, everyone wants to have a big audience in a way, but when you do a lot of paid and a lot of spend behind, you're reaching, yes, a lot of people, but it's about that quality, like that core and it's kind of looking at it from the inside out, like who's your core people? Like what's the inner circle? And then it's going to be just expanding from there. Right. Because they will in their turn, 10, um, tell 10 friends about the brand and it's like trusting that word of mouth and the recommendation rather than like trying to attract the outside in. Because it's really hard to attract the masses and then go niche. Um, but every niche brand wants to maybe potentially become commercial. But it starts from the core and then expands, uh, further rather than the other way around.

Speaker C: I think it's funny, the big brands are all secretly looking at the small ones and the small ones are eyeing up the big ones and everyone's kind of trying to do what the other side is doing in a funny way.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's really, I think, I mean, I think that whole thing connects to the, you know, a big power shift. You know, the power is in the hands of people and distribution power is getting so democratized. Like everyone or anyone can create their own brand m anytime. They can create their own fan base thanks to social media. Um, and because of that lack of loyalty and emotional connection to the big brands. And most of the time I also think it comes down to responsibility, social responsibilities from big brands. Consumers are really craving authenticity and the closeness of a brand and feeling that they are part of something, uh, and craving that sense of belonging again. And I think the world is just becoming too transactional and too commercial. And it's this feeling that people want to have this, I don't know, peer to peer and micro economies is coming back because anyone can decide for that to be now. And obviously that's not true to all products, but to a lot of consumer brands,

Speaker C: is it hard when you have that feeling that things have become really commercialized? And we're talking about how brands think about roi. How do you square that with then, um, running a creative agency and advocating for the work that you're making and saying to a client, yes, this will deliver you the results that you want?

Speaker B: I mean, uh, this is a big question, you know, building a universe around the brand I think is key to look at everything beyond a product. And I don't mean just content wise or, you know, how you deal with your marketing channels. It's like how you actually look on the commercial model of your business. So how can you create alternative revenue streams and in a way kind of building a new commercial infrastructure for your brand that moves beyond a product. So if you're Nike or Adidas or a smaller brand that are up and coming that those big players are looking at, how can you make your audience feel like they are members rather than an audience and consumers? So moving from, in a way, a product transaction to a membership transaction. And what can that look like across the board? Like not just products, events, just having access to the brand, running clubs, book clubs, all these other things that people are willing to pay for, but they're paying for being a part of something instead of just paying for a product. And there's something around that, I think with that kind of commercial infrastructure that can be so applied to so many different brands, both big and small, that are thinking about ROI and that doesn't need to be just selling a product. It could be so many other things. And it's having I think an open mind and open eyes to what I could look like. And I also think when the whole movement of Web3 and NFTs and all of that happened, I think a big reason for that was co ownership and co creation. And like, how can you create with your audience and find other alternative revenue streams that are not following the traditional path? Um, and I do think with ROI in general, I think gone are the days where we can predict everything. Unless you are the biggest, most established player, where you can probably predict a lot of things still with all of the data and infrastructure that you have. But the culture and the Internet I think is moving way too fast for you to be able to predict. Um, a lot of things, like all the benchmarks are gone. Success in a way feels more random than ever and it's that instant ROI could probably still happen. Um, but how long will it last unless you put the same money in like again and again and again? So I think like, yes, if you look at traditional ROI on just selling your products, um, or services, then you need to spend a lot of money to keep and maintain that. Um, unless you do a lot of kind of, you know, long term work and see that over time. But I think looking at alternative commercial models is a really interesting thing for thing for all brands, all sizes.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's really interesting. So something that's happening almost like a moat around the main castle or like a little side path. Something that's not competing with your main business but is supporting it or complimenting it, or helping lead people into the main part of what you're doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. There's so many other alternative ways where people uh, would be willing to spend money but they maybe just don't want to have another pair of shoes.

Speaker C: I wondered if you feel like this idea of membership and being part of something has been tarnished a little bit by the move to a lot of subscription services. You know, you have something like Netflix and Disney and the prices go up every year. I think Netflix have just put their prices up Again, and I've seen a lot of people complaining about it and the comms around it. And I wonder if you think people have soured a little bit on this idea of being part of something or paying a subscription fee or a membership fee, and how brands can make sure that what they're actually giving their community is genuinely useful and valuable and worth it for people. And it doesn't just feel like they're ticking off a box or, you know, trying to manipulate people in some way.

Speaker B: But I think that's still the same thing, right, for Netflix and, um, all these other subscription services, that's their main product. And maybe that is the problem. If they would have other products that they would offer or other values that they would offer beyond that product, like, oh, you're getting invited to a, uh, VIP screening or you're getting invited to something else that is beyond, or you're getting something that feels like you're part of something. But Netflix and Amazon and all these big players are becoming also so transactional and so big and they are just increasing prices and that's the only thing you see. But the value for you as a consumer is not increasing. It's the same like you still scroll and don't find anything to watch and you're feeling disappointed that that's the case. But maybe if you would have access to, um, one on one with one of the directors from White Lotus or something else that feels beyond that subscription, right, that's where you can add, uh, value, what people, I think are willing to pay still.

Speaker C: And do you think that conversation and that relationship between value, however you define that, and creativity is improving? Because I think that ROI and creative work has been in a bit of a contentious relationship in the past. It's not necessarily easy to directly say, as we've spoken about, oh, yes, this advert, uh, delivered this much of this thing, or this rebrand uplifted this other thing by so much. But do you think brands are now open to more, more nuanced conversations around that? Do they still expect immediate value? Do they understand that it's wider, it's longer, it's not so defined as they might want it to be?

Speaker B: I think it's so different depending on who you speak with. I find, generally speaking, that a lot of startups and, um, brands in the early stage are way more open to interesting alternative solutions. But then you have the big, more corporate brands and companies that are probably still expecting a lot of return because they are having their frameworks, um, and their ways of working and they are not willing to go outside of that. And I still think it's the same thing within agencies, right? You have the big agencies that are stuck in their old frameworks and ways of working and headcounts and rate cards, but they are not willing to sacrifice their model for an alternative solution. And it's just, I think the evolution of new businesses coming with new ways of working, um, and so I think it's very dependent on the size of the business and, um, the founders and kind of the people behind how willing they are to look at alternative ways of doing things. But I think the time we're living in, right, there's inflation, there's so many things happening in the world, there's a lot of uncertainty. And, um, this is a time where it's so needed that people are finding new ways to collaborate, to monetize, to, um, build and to understand how people will consume in the future. Like no one knows. And you can. There's probably a lot of research and studies on that, but things are moving so fast and things are shifting so quickly that it's getting harder and harder to predict what's going to happen in the next few years. Um, um, but what we do know, like through history, right, that is the change makers and the people are building new ways that will pave the way for the future. And I think that's so important

Speaker C: in a way that takes us right back to the start of the conversation, this idea that when things are changing so much and things feel so uncertain, committing to building a community around your brand feels so important because it's there and it's the bedrock of what you're doing and it's always there. Uh, you know, whatever ad campaign you're doing or whatever brand refresh you're running, there's always that community at the heart of it that you've spent time investing in and time helping bring together completely.

Speaker B: Because at the end of the day, that's everything, right? People, it's people buying your product, it's people behind businesses, it's people everywhere. Without people, there's nothing. And, um, it's so important to invest in that. And if you don't have the people backing you and what you're doing, you're. You're getting nowhere.

Speaker C: Do you think there's an element where when a brand and an agency start to work together, maybe brands need to be clear and say, this is the kind of outcome we ideally want. And the agency says this is the kind of outcome that you would hopefully achieve with this in a year, in two years, in three years. You know, this is something we can set up for you now, but you might not see the flower come into its fullest for another four years. And are you okay to commit to that? And the brand says, yes, okay, we understand. Is there that kind of setting of expectations that needs to happen very early on?

Speaker B: I think so, for sure. And m. I also think it's redefining the agency's role within organizations because there's so many times where you're just being seen as a silo, like you're this disconnected player that is trying to solve a challenge without having all the insights. And in a way, it's also about integration in that, like, being more intertwined in all the business elements. Um, and I see that so much where brand and marketing is so disconnected from the commercial department and they don't speak with each other. So it's like, how can you kind of bridge that gap? And how can you as an agency get more ownership and insight into what's going on and then from there build a customized solution that is actually true and close to the business? Because so many times you have these ideas, strategies, frameworks and blueprints and everything that are being developed, but they are not being used because that lack of integration and there's a lack of collaboration. There's only a few people within the brand that is doing it and is working with you on that. But then, um, to actually implement it takes so much resources. And maybe a lot of the things are not close to the business because those insights were never being given. So I think that integration element is also key, um, to be ordered to give those like, okay, this is what you can expect in three years. So this is what you can expect in 12 months. Um, because how would you know if you don't have all the knowledge and all the data and all the insights?

Speaker C: So we've been chatting a lot in the Ask Us for Ideas office about, you know, how brands are working with agencies in different ways. They're finding less traditional ways of running partnerships. So, you know, it's not an ad campaign or a social campaign or rebrand or a website. They're bringing agencies on more like management consultants or kind of reactive cultural consultants. And I wondered if you're seeing some of that as well. You know, people running brands understanding that agencies are really brilliant problem solvers and they can do so much more than literally just the creative output. There's all the kind of thinking that goes in behind that. They could be really great problem solvers for Brands.

Speaker B: I see that so much as well. There's um, coming back to the collaboration. I think it's, it's collaborating to solve big problems and big challenges and in order to do that you need a lot of senior people, uh, or with different perspectives in a room to do that together. And it's stepping away from traditional services and looking at how can we just get a great group of people in the room to try to solve a challenge. And I think that's just the way, you know, innovation happens when you look at things from different perspectives and you, you really try to come up with new solutions and that's not going to be through looking at the traditional framework and pick a service that you want to sell and then just only focus on that. You need to look beyond that. Um, so yeah, we've seen that so much and I think that's so needed.

Speaker C: I love this idea that brands are bringing agencies on almost to be more like management consultants and actually arguably they're better at management consultancy because they're far more connected to what's going on in the world. Maybe they understand culture better and they have a different take, but it's also a take that's informed by a lot of the other work they're doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. And I think another evolution will be that it's creating a co ownership between the agency and the brand and that speaks to as well the whole evolution of co ownership and co creation. It's like how can you just be more people collaborating and co owning together and making that work. So I think we will see that a lot in the agency world and brand side that they are getting closer and they are co creating things together, um, beyond just offering services to one another. M and that's a really exciting um, time.

Speaker C: I think a lot of what we've spoken about is dependent on relationships. You know, ask us for ideas. It's lovely for us to see brands and agencies that we've introduced build relationships that then go on into the long term. So maybe they start working together on one thing and that expands into something else. And I wondered how you feel that brands and agencies should ideally set their relationships up so that's a possibility and so that the work they're making together is really as productive and as effective as possible.

Speaker B: It's allowing for time to be there to build on the dynamic. I think in any group development, um, I've been to a few group and leadership courses and all groups work differently and it takes time to get there, to get to that very effective point of Collaboration and you always go through these phases of this initial romantic period where everything is fun and new and exciting and then the problems come and then you're like, oh, this is really frustrating. And they're not delivering this in time and they're not doing that. And there are some collaborations that come out of that and they thrive and they find really good ways of working and some relationships will not. And I think that's just a very innate group dynamic thing. If the group works and you have great collaborators on board both from the brand side and agency, then you can thrive and come out so much stronger. And that's when you create a really good long term partnership. Um, or it can go the other way where it doesn't work and that's okay. Um, but I think allowing for things to take time to form that really strong relationship and form that collaboration that you need and that takes time to build exactly the same way as a friendship. It takes time to build a really close friend and it takes time to build a really good relationship. Um, but then I would say the other thing is setting expectations and being honest and transparent up front that always help to fast track that growth as a group. Um, but I don't think it doesn't matter where you are. It's group dynamics at the end of the day. And if you're in a really good group and you all develop that really strong sense of collaboration, then that would probably work really well. Um, but it's. Yeah, honesty and transparency are two key things. And also trust. There's so many brands sometimes um, that are lacking trust. And trust is also a key principle for good collaboration and trusting people in their areas. Um, and letting, yeah, also letting things not be perfect all the time. And that's also something that shapes up over time. Mhm.

Speaker C: And finding the right partner to begin with as well. Before any of that happens. I guess just making sure that the agency or the brand you're working with there's some kind of natural fit or there's some kind of feeling or deeper match, whatever it is that makes the two of you work well together completely.

Speaker B: And yeah, I think that's uh, it's key to find the right partner and, and find that, yeah. Other side that can help to run this alongside you and share on you and, and help you get that second perspective on, on the world and on everything else that you're building. Kind of a second opinion. Strange.

Speaker C: It feels like we're in such uncertain um, times as we mentioned before, but I feel like somehow it feels like quite an optimistic time for the creative industry. And I feel like brands are really realizing, oh, my goodness, agencies can do so much more than maybe I'd assumed. And agencies are being given so many more opportunities to show that off and get involved with things that maybe in the past they would never have had

Speaker B: a chance to completely. And I think in the world that we're in, we need to create new ways. And that's what we, as well at Culture Defined is really. We care about just finding those new ways and new ways of working that can create change in a different way and finding less traditional ways of working. Um, because it's going to be a hard time. That's a reality, and we're in a hard time at the moment. And to get out of that, we need to think differently and be more flexible. Um, that's the key. And in all other key times in history, that's been the case, right? You have these people coming in, they think differently to create new solutions. They manage to create a lot of new infrastructure to build on. And that's, I think, um, um, the beautiful part of being in a hard time, right, that you need that thinking and that, um, other perspective.

Speaker A: That was Culture Defined founder Victoria Wickman talking with Ask Us for Ideas head of Content Emma Tucker. Thank you for listening to James Green for editing the episode and to George Grindling for the theme music hit. Subscribe to be the first to hear new episodes. And for more about how Ask Us for Ideas helps brands find agencies, visit us, uh, @aufi.com until next time.