393 - Laura Simms on Career Change After Success: When Your Old Identity Still Works but No Longer Fits | Paper Napkin Wisdom Episode

I think it's easy to assume that someone's going to be happy for the next advancement you have to bestow. And and a a more collaborative approach would be to have, you know, to initiate what might be a awkward conversation around, hey, we're gonna have a position opening up. Or we've got the opportunity to to do this with you for you. what does fulfillment or success in this organization look like for you?

what's working well? What do you think you're you're missing and could use more of? Hi, I'm Govindh Jayaraman and this is Paper Napkin Wisdom episode 393. Welcome back, and thank you so much for joining us.

Your support means a lot, and I hope you give us a like, follow, or share. It really helps us to bring and build our community. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is walk away from something that hasn't failed, something that's actually working, even a little bit. A career you fought to build, an identity people recognize, and an aversion of you that has been rewarded, respected even, and maybe even paid pretty well.

And then somewhere along the way, you may begin to notice that the thing you wanted so badly doesn't quite feel the way you imagined it would. What if that feeling isn't telling you that something has gone wrong? What if that feeling is telling you that something has changed? My guest today is Laura Sims.

She's the founder of Your Career Homecoming, and Laura works with high performers who've reached the point where their work may still look successful from the outside, but no longer feels like it belongs to them. She knows that experience personally. Laura began her career as an actor in Los Angeles. She earned the degree, got an agent and a manager, and started doing the work and moved closer to the dream that she had spent pursuing years, maybe her whole life, pursuing.

And getting closer gave her a chance to discover something she couldn't have known from further away. Maybe she didn't want the destination anymore. And that realization eventually led to the idea that she brought to her paper napkin wisdom today. I'm not gonna give you the napkin yet because I think you'll hear it differently once you understand how she arrived there.

As you listen, you might notice where something in your own life has moved from anticipation to dread. Where advancement may long no longer feel like progress, or where an identity that still works perfectly well has quietly stopped feeling like you. And perhaps that next question isn't immediately what you should do next. Perhaps there's another question that needs to come first.

Let's dive in to my conversation with Laura Sims. Laura Sims, welcome to Paper Napkin Wisdom. Excited to have you here today. Thanks, glad to be here.

So I I said this in the green room before we began and and a real credit to you. Your napkin was used in a way that hasn't been done before. It was so if you're just listening and haven't seen it, you've got to you've got to get on either the YouTube or or anywhere else where you can see the picture because it's fantastic. So ~ so thank you for that.

Thank you for being creative. But you know, creativity is part of your jam. So I'm looking forward to d getting into the whole thing. Well listen, y you gave a former actor a prop, so I decided to have fun.

Yeah, exactly. It's fantastic. And your napkin says it's less about what you do and more about why you do it. Why did you share that with me?

This was one of those moments that you know you have those moments in life where maybe it's a a major story in the news or something big is happening in your personal life, and you just have a mental snapshot of where you were when that happened. This is one of those big moments for me. So my first career was as an actor. I had gone to graduate school, I'd gotten my MFA, I had moved out to Los Angeles, I had an agent manager pounding the pavement, I was doing the thing.

This had become a something that I had maybe fantasized about as a kid from time to time, but never really felt real until I was an adult. But here I was, I was following my dream, I was doing the thing, and I got to a point where even though I was having some success, I really had a crisis of meaning. And even after years of of dedicating to my education, my community came from acting. I met my spouse through acting, my income was through acting.

I had this moment where I thought, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. And just asking that question felt like such a betrayal of all the things I had done and everything I had built. ~ and it really sent me into a spiral that lasted a couple years of trying to figure out what's gonna come next, what's gonna come next. Not just What am I gonna do?

But who am I gonna be? If I'm not an actor anymore, who am I and what does that mean for my life? And and because I had followed my passion as an actor, I kept trying to follow, find some other passion and follow a passion again, and it wasn't working. And eventually there was this moment.

I was sitting, we had this little guest house in Los Angeles. I was sitting in this little room, once again trying to figure out what am I gonna do with my life. And I just had this thought flash across my head. I mean, really like like if an airplane could pull a banner across the sky is is what it felt like.

And it said, What if it's less about what you do and more about why you do it? And it helped me let go of my obsession with trying to follow a passion and trying to focus on an interest or an activity and really think more deeply about what drives me, what motivates me. Why do I want to work other than have to make money and and pay the bills? What am I in it for?

Yeah. ~ well this there's a lot there that I wanna dive in a little bit too because I mean I think a lot of people don't understand. They this th I think people have this impression that if you want to be an actor, getting a manager an agent, that's just th check boxes on a a card that you do, but it really isn't, right? I mean, it's hard to get an agent.

It's hard to get a manager out there pitching you, isn't it? It is. And then I think another misconception is, ~ once you have that team, your job is done and you just sit back and you show up to appointments and they take their ten percent and that couldn't be further from the truth either. There's a lot of get the job work that an actor can do on their own.

Right. So so you're through this engine a little bit. You've got a couple check marks that you that isn't just a to do list. It's you have to earn an agent, you have to earn a manager, you have to earn your way through the door.

You get some gigs, and you're making a little bit of progress, and you have this this epiphany, this moment, this this ~ mental snapshot of this moment where you have this revelation. You know how And I think you accurately talked about it. Like that that it felt like you were sort of how do I even come to terms with the fact that I'm changing all of this stuff? I've made progress here.

I'm I'm making some you know, you you you said you met your husband, your your or eventual husband, you met your you met you met him there, you met you meet were making income. It's it's hard to turn away from something that's even sort of working, isn't it? It is, but I also think that's part of what allowed me to let go of it. Because I, you know, for a long time it was this dream, it was a thing to chase, it was a goal to go for.

And I do think getting enough proximity to what it would be like if I reached the goal allowed me to let it go. Because the the thought process I kept having was all right, if I was able to do this to its fullest. What's the fullest expression of what this could look like for me? And if I got it, would I even want it?

And that answer changed. You know, I I just I didn't I didn't even want the thing I used to want. And I think part of it is because I got close enough to it to see what it was actually gonna be like. Yeah, was it was it really far off or just a little off?

I'm just curious. What was it about that moment? ~ I think to I think to be a, you know, a regular working actor where that was my sole income, I had a long way to go. ~ but I I was working with those people, you know, I was auditioning for the people that could help make that happen.

I was getting good feedback, you know, I think I had a realistic view of what the gap between where I was and and where I had to go with, but I also had a sense of if I stayed long enough, and if I had luck, and if, you know. If the stars aligned, I think there's a path here. but I j I just don't even want what's at the end of the path anymore. Yeah.

And that's that's the part that I thought was really interesting to me is that you were able to discern that. And you say you were able to discern it because you got close enough to it that you got a realistic picture for you what that would look And it wasn't just it feels like the way you're saying it, it wasn't just the things that you'd have to give up to earn it. It would it was the the thing at the end w wasn't what you thought it was gonna be or what you wanted when you got closer to it.

That and I think, you know, like a lot of people, my awareness of what I really wanted for my life was d developing, it was changing. You know, and the thing that I really wanted at twenty two was not necessarily the life that I was wanting at thirty. Sure. Okay, so so let's let's go into this mental slap shot a little bit where you you got this epiphany, you know, the the banner comes across the sky and and you see that.

What's your first thought? What do you what do you do with that epiphany? What do you do with that information? First thing I did, so I I took out a blank sheet of paper and a pen and I drew a giant plus sign on it.

So I made myself four little quadrants and I filled up three of the quadrants with these are the things I've pursued that have really been meaningful for me in the past. So I I did a box, a quadrant with acting, I did a quadrant with teaching acting because that is something that I had kind of dabbled with. ~ I did a quadrant with web design because that is something I had kind of you know, pursued ~ on a small level. And I started thinking about, all right, what was it about these things that made it meaningful?

To really start to dig deeper on, okay, I see for me it's about Not just connecting with people, there's this this real sense of communion. There's this almost intimacy and doing something, you know, it's it's not just small talk, it's not just working on a project together. There's this sense of communion. ~ there's there's this theme of making something from nothing.

~ so I just started to go through and and see what was it that made these meaningful? And then just some patterns started to emerge about what is driving me at a deeper level than the activity. Of those things. Okay, so you wh where did you get this ~ idea to ~ to make this plus sign on a piece of paper?

I don't know, where did the airplane come from? I mean, I really just think like several years of mulling this over and and coming at this from the same old way, I really just some new little pathway opened in my brain and said, Let's think about this differently. Let's look at the purpose angle instead of the passion. Yeah, that's I I think that's great.

And so you you sit there and you you come up with all the things about each one of these things that that brought you energy that that i impassioned you. And then you did what with it? What did you do next? I think nothing ~ in the immediate moment, but it just got my wheels turning about how else I could think about what comes next and whatever it was was gonna be something that combine some of those those deeper elements from those from that quadrant.

So rather than how can I How can I do acting? How can I teach acting? How can I, you know, really starting to think about what are some other things that are gonna ride on those those drivers? And it wasn't an immediate answer, but it it did start the pieces slowly coming together for me.

I think it's really interesting that a lot of times I when I when I'm speaking to people when they're making a shift like the one that you made. It's it's really articulating and identifying the core purpose that the or the core thing that you really enjoyed about the role. So sometimes people get attached to the role, but it's not the role. Almost ever it's the role.

It's all the things that we attach to it. And once we notice that, it gives us sort of the agency and the opportunity to notice it in other places. And it sounds like that's what you did, right? For sure.

And I think it helped me create some healthy distance between the identity that I was so wrapped up in, the identity of being an actor, the identity of being in that role. And it helped me see myself. It it just got some breathing room into how I was able to think about myself and what my options could be. So what'd you do with that distance from that idea?

It was a I would say it was a slow and painful process to continue to ~ create some distance. And, you know, there was definitely a while where I was still thinking of myself as an actor. I was still telling some people that I was an actor. And then when I was starting my business, I would tell those people that I was a coach.

You know, so there was definitely this crossover period where it did feel. awkward and I did feel a bit like I was leading a double life. But it I think I needed that. I think I needed that that period of crossover to Start to tiptoe into something new without completely letting go of where I had been.

So how did you know how did you know how did you figure out what that was gonna be? How did you discover that? Did you try a bunch of different things? You try I mean, I'm not saying ~ I'm not gonna use the idea of auditioning, but did you did you try a couple of different things on for size?

Well, that's what I had done previous to the the quadrant. is I had I had tried on being an acting teacher, I had tried on web design. Once I I had this shift to purpose, ~ and I I don't remember how long it took, but I I kind of shook out, okay, I I know I wanna do something have my own business. I want that power and freedom and flexibility.

I know I wanna do something more service oriented. I had these themes from the quadrants, you know, ~ I had worked as a client of a couple different coaches, and I liked I liked the people I met around them. I liked who I was in their communities. I like how they challenged me to think.

so coaching is where I thought, all right, this is a thing I think I can have some real longevity with. I think I have some some natural, you know, inclination here and I'm gonna need some training to make sure I have the tools and and I can do this responsibly. But that was enough of an opening to make me feel like, okay, I can I can claim this. And like a lot of business owners, I started pretty broad, you know, just much more ~ watered down in general than I would advise anyone to do.

But ~ it it was enough to get me started and point me in a direction. That's great. And what were you looking for as you were meandering along that path then? Because it it it doesn't what what I find interesting about it is that you you seem to be really earnestly exploring it.

Like you didn't go into it with a preconceived notion of what the other side was going to look like, other than you were focused on how it was going to feel, because that's the core of your napkin. Am I missing, am I misunderstanding that? I was pretty green on figuring out how to construct an offer, on figuring out how to really serve a client. You know, I I I got some I did a coaching program.

I felt like my coaching skills were, you know, good enough to get started. ~ but again, I I started really broad and and I think this is something I learned from coming up in a creative background was engage with the thing so the thing can teach you what it wants to be. You know, so that obviously I I had my own agenda for what I wanted from it, but the I I did I think bring a bit of a an openness to experiment and find out, okay, who do I like to work with? What kind of problems do I like to help people solve?

There's some of that you can learn on paper and some of that you refine by working with people. So I jumped in and thought, let's work with people and ~ and get it going that way. Okay, great. So what was the first time that you felt like you were getting closer to this idea about, you know, embedding more purpose into your day?

Like when did you get that clue? Was it a client experience? Was it walking away from a client experience? What what describe that moment?

I so when I started out I was working with a couple different, I would say buckets of people. I had business owners like me who needed help with their marketing. I at least had some background in that coming from the acting world. That's entrepreneurial.

So I was helping creatives with that piece. And then there were people coming to me who were going through some kind of career transition. And well I've done that. You know, maybe I can I can help with that.

And I got to a point where I felt like I really need to pick a pick a lane. I need to I need to niche down. I don't know r what to do with these career people, I don't think. So let me write an ebook for them.

So at least when they show up, I've got some kind of resource that they can have. And I'm really gonna focus on these business people. Well, I start to write this ebook and I realize, no, I actually have a lot to say here. And I have more original thoughts and I have more personal experience.

And I think I've got the opportunity to make the greatest contribution on the career change piece. So I let the business clients go, really focused in on the career change piece and thought, all right, I've I've tried so many things that didn't work. I have the book the bookcase full of career books that I've worked through that didn't work. I went to therapy and that didn't help me answer this question.

You know, I've done the assessments, that didn't help me all this. I Mm-hmm. at least know what doesn't work. I know what's worked for me personally.

So let me create a repeatable system and process. So that people like me who want more fulfillment from their work, want more meaning and purpose, can f can figure this out in a in a predictable way. Okay. So we're ~ so so you got the ebook done.

~ it helped you work through your thoughts, it sounds like, which is pretty cool. And then and then you decide to go into this career transition. You know what one of the funny things about career transition, it it always feels to me that people who are in career transition really need support in in separating themselves from their identity, the the projection of what they thought they were. into what they're going through, it that must have felt very rewarding given your own journey when you started to do that work, when you started to uncom unpack that.

And it and it also strikes me that, you know, well, let me just start let's start there and then I'll ask you the second question. How did it feel? Like how did you know you were when you started doing this work after you wrote the ebook, how did it start to feed you emotionally? I mean, just I I had such an immediate kinship with folks who were going through it.

And that's another thing that helped me have the confidence to choose that direction was I thought I've got the deepest well of compassion for this group of people. I understand not just the strategic choices that they need to make, but the identity challenges that come with this. I understand this is more than about picking a new job. This is also about declaring Here's the kind of person that I want to be, and here's the kind of life that I want to live.

and then and now it's incredibly rewarding to not just have a front seat for, but to help people. Look, the work I do is called Your Career Homecoming. It really is about people becoming more of who they are. Having work that's aligned with that.

And I think what was most surprising to me was, you know, I thought the big reveal, the big prize at the end of all this is people figure out the new job. It was it was there is a sense of people coming back to life, you know, of people dating for the first time in years, of people getting back into their creative practices, of Finally traveling again, of just giving themselves more permission. I think some of it is just because their energy came back and they had a little more bandwidth and capacity to do something other than ruminate about their career problems.

But really seeing Right. someone ~ breathed, you know, back to life by their own choices, that never gets old. I find it really interesting when I speak to people who are doing your kind of work because find your lane being for others what you needed for yourself, right? I mean, you were in that transition and probably could have used a Laura to to sit with you and and talk you through the transition, the the thing that you were giving up.

And I think that's true for a lot of us. It it doesn't matter how successful you are because Ultimately, when we have a mask on that does work, that works really well and it does the job. And you know, for entrepreneurs, you know, that mask can pay the bills pretty well. Then one day it stops being your face and it stops fitting and it doesn't feel right anymore.

And we need to make changes. That can be a challenging thing to to put down, this thing that pays the bills, this thing that Everybody else recognizes this part of me that other people appreciate and maybe other people are counting on. But if I'm not that person anymore, it's not sustainable, right? And and you talked about some of the symptoms of that, because people aren't living a life anymore.

They're not dating, they're not vacationing, they're not living, they're just surviving. There is a real sense of Self-erosion. This shrinking, this diminishment, you know, people will say, I feel like I'm a shell of myself. ~ I I felt like that.

And obviously, just getting in the right job doesn't that alone doesn't change your life necessarily. You can take your misery right into a brand new job, but I I do think there's something that happens when you feel. Like you are living in congruence or in alignment with who you are and what you care about, and you're spending your time in a way that feels like it's worth it. I think that's what so many people are looking for.

It's not that people don't want to work. It's they want it to feel worth the time they're putting in and they want to feel like they are doing something that is a contribution they actually care about. So you had this Thunderbolt moment, right? Well you had this Thunderbolt moment where you looked up, saw the the plane going by proverbially with a with with your beautiful pa paper napkin on it.

And and and so you have that moment. But what's interesting about what you just shared is that a lot of people don't. A lot of people just silently fade. They become some muted version of themselves, putting one foot in front of the other.

Maybe just trudging towards retirement. ~ and and And I think that that's r really an interesting distinction. H how how could someone know that they're maybe struggling with their identity and what they're doing? How would they know that it might be something that they need to consider and and shift on?

Are there are there signs? I think most of the time people will feel it in their body before they're ready to intellectually ~ accept it. Because like you said, it it really does it feel pretty threatening. Because it again, it is the way people know me, it's how people depend on me, it's how I make my money, you know, it's how I'm I'm introduced when people meet me.

It's what I tell the IRS that I am and I do, you know, it's all of those things. but I think, you know, the the The body is usually the first to know. like I I know for myself when I first hit Los Angeles, you know, to get a call from my agent or manager was just electricity. And I was so excited and I couldn't wait to hear what they had to say.

And then I got to a point where I would dread if I could see my manager's phone number coming up on my phone because it meant an audition and I didn't want to do an audition. So just, you know, paying attention to those little moments of What has shifted from anticipation to dread? Or how does your body feel walking into that meeting on a Wednesday afternoon? ~ how's your body feel on a Sunday afternoon or evening?

Everybody talks about the Sunday scaries, but th those are not inevitable. Those, you know, I Mm-hmm. I I think culturally we kind of joke about those, but it doesn't have to be like that. So just being able to acknowledge what's going on in your body.

and not sweep it under the rug or normalize it as this is just what work is. It's a version of work, but it doesn't have to be. Yeah, so I think sometimes people might feel like it's just a rough patch. ~ it'll it'll it'll get better.

And you're not really telling people to to quit. You're asking people to notice how it feels and let that guide you, right? Yeah. I mean, but how many rough patch I I mean, that's also how many rough patches have you been through?

How long's it been going so many. on? You know, for most people they they will recognize they're in a cycle where things are rough, things are hard, it's all consuming, and then maybe there's a little breather and they start to think, What was I so worried about? What was I complaining about?

Why why was I so bent out of shape? And then they hit the rough patch again. And it just cycles through rough patch, little repe reprieve. Rough patch, little reprieve.

and the little reprieve will have you hooked for a long time because you you keep thinking there's gonna be a longer one, but if Yeah. those aren't coming, then you're in a cycle. So so thinking back through your story, you know, did you know when you look back at it, did you see the rough patches? Did you see the reprieves?

Did you see those moments? I don't think I was trapped in that kind of cycle. you know, like this was not a corporate grind where I was in meetings and we gotta get busy for taxis and you know, like it it didn't flow like that. you know, you get an audition and you're just thrilled to get it and then maybe you have another one and then maybe there's you know, so it just it didn't have really predictable rhythms like that.

I think for me it was more of a slow disintegration of something I used to be really excited about, going from Anticipation to dread. Yeah, and you talked about this, right? This this erosion. And I think erosion is a really interesting way of thinking about it because you know, in a an erosion, it just happens over time.

It's almost silent and invisible day to day. But you come back a month or a week or a year later and things have changed. The landscape has changed in enormously. And I think that's what you're you're hinting at here.

So what when you when you think about The transformation. When you think about supporting people through that transformation, and and you talked about some of the benefits of it, you know, what are some of the things that people do well in that transformation? What are the things that they get caught up and maybe get wrong? I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that changing careers is about making one big decision one time.

And it is really hundreds of micro decisions that need to be made in the proper sequence, and it is much more of a process of transition rather than this abrupt stop start. Okay. So what does the process feel like when you're in it and it's working? This is what's tricky.

Sometimes it feels great and sometimes it feels Uncomfortable. And I Because people have to really again, they've got to they've gotta challenge a lot of beliefs they were raised on. They've gotta challenge what was modeled for them by their parents often. They've gotta wrestle with questions of identity and meaning and purpose and service and legacy and money.

And ~ feelings are not always the best barometer for how it's going. ~ so that's a conversation that I I have a lot with clients, is being able to understand what are the hallmarks of strategy that we're on the right track and things are working, ~ because those aren't always we can't always check the feelings indicators on that. Yeah. So What what I think what I think is really interesting is, you know, I think there's a there's also a narrative around people who are switching gears or switching careers that I I think that it's for people who aren't doing well.

You know, hey you you weren't a star in Hollywood. ~ you were getting work but not, you know, starring work. So changing career, yeah, of course you have to change careers. And then other people will say, well, you know You're working at this ~ at this job.

You're you're a clerk in an accounting firm and you're not advancing. Yeah, it's not working out. You're not advancing. You should get another job.

But I think one of the things that's interesting about your work is that you're talking to high performers a lot who are at the top of their game and are feeling all these things too. Right. I think people people think the paycheck makes everything better, but it's Not necessarily true. It's not true.

And I'll tell you, I've had clients who've come to me because they got a raise, they got a promotion, they accepted it, they walked out the room, broke down in tears, and thought, no, the golden handcuffs just got tighter. It doesn't feel like advancement when you're advancing towards something that you don't want. It feels like you're pulled deeper into the trap. Right, right.

And I it's gotta feel so limiting, so constrained. so so it's amazing to me that you told me that you have clients who would call you af after that kind of an experience. You know, I think I think ~ I inadvertently did that with one of my team members once. We promoted her and she was miserable.

She actually asked for her old job back. Two weeks later. And we gave it back to her. But it was, it was really interesting to see that happen because she was miserable for the two weeks.

So how how does a how does a leader help their team in the situation where they're watching, you know, because I I I believe that great leaders who lead great companies care about the career development growth plan of their teammates, of their of their team around them. They're actively interested in investing in their their development, whatever that means, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean their advancement, but their development in the way they want. So how d how do entrepreneurs support people who are going through this kind of thing?

How do they support their team? I think it's easy to assume that someone's going to be happy for the next advancement you have to bestow. And and a a more collaborative approach would be to have, you know, to initiate what might be a awkward conversation around, hey, we're gonna have a position opening up. Or we've got the opportunity to to do this with you for you.

What about that would interest you? ~ what does fulfillment or success in this organization look like for you? ~ Mm-hmm. what's working well?

What do you think you're you're missing and could use more of? And really start it more open-ended. And then there can be, you know, going into what what roles or positions may open that up. but coming in with yeah, And isn't it?

with the question instead of the assumption. Yeah. And isn't it, you know, also in that same way, it's really important for for managers, leaders to talk to their teams about what their interests are for growth and development before the opportunity comes around too, because it's also arranging the table in a way so that they can move in the direction they want, as opposed to in the direction that we're just thinking is right for them. Yes, and acknowledging that this is hard.

I mean it's hard to be a leader and it's hard to manage because, you know, you may be looking at multiple people who have some competing, you know, wants and and needs and requests, and you've also got to consider what's happening within the organization and what the organization needs. So I I I think it it's complex. ~ but you know, everybody's an adult. This is not This is not about a a a a team member saying, Here's here's my list, Santa Claus.

Now give me everything on my list. You know. It's about the the collaboration and figuring out where's the where's the happy medium so that people can feel like they're valued, they can grow, they can have the the circumstances and the work environment that's gonna make it feel worth it. Yeah.

~ you know, you s you said it's it's hard and and yeah, I look I've spent my whole life as an employer, as a as a leader, but I'll tell you, it's it it is hard. But it's harder when you don't have this conversation and when you don't engage your team about what their career development growth plan is, rather than just imposing or or assuming that the next step that I think is on their ladder rung is exactly what they're going to do. Because if I every time that I've tried to preordain that and I've got it wrong, it hurts a lot for for us, right?

It hurts the company, it hurts the person. You you probably lose the person, you probably have a hole in the company. You probably have a lot more problems. So as hard as it is, it's a lot harder when you're not doing this kind of conversation, when you're not engaging in your team in this kind of way, when you're not engaging them on their own growth plan.

And and I think that's really interesting. ~ So so now you've you've had these two careers so far, right? You had this acting career. Maybe many other act careers you also had other things on that on that little ~ you know, you did web design, you did this, you did that.

So now as you move forward How does it how do you feel that this is your calling? Like d does it feel like this is your calling? This is where you're gonna be? Or do you feel like, hey, you might be open to change in the future again?

Callings is not really a concept that I Teach from or work from, I think, you know, there there can be callings that come become careers. There can be calling callings that don't ever amount to money or or ~ in any real vocational way. but do I feel like I'm in the right place? Do I feel like I'm working with the right people?

Do I feel like I'm able to help champion people who I have a connection with and I've developed expertise around what they need, yes. I mean I I I do feel a real sense of mission and purpose and connection to to the people that I work with. That's amazing. ~ you know, I think I think that ~ that's a great place to to leave it.

And you know, at the end of every podcast, we've been doing this for two years now. A great friend of the show, his name was John Rulin, shared with us a paper napkin that says what you appreciate appreciates. And ~ he suddenly passed away two years ago. And since that day, we've been paying forward his message of gratitude and asking every one of our guests.

To shout out someone or some people, if you'd like. And I would ask you, who do you want to shout out today? I would shout out the best boss I ever had. ~ Wow.

that would be a woman named Dallas Travers. She used to be a career coach for actors when and that's when I worked for her. Now she I believe works with business owners. but I I know it's it's easy to talk about bad bosses and horrible there's a whole movie about horrible bosses.

It's easy to talk about the bad ones, but she was Incredible. She was such a model of generosity. She gave us enough freedom and training and resources to do our work well. ~ she made it fun and it really showed me showed me how to lead, showed me how to lead from generosity and that ~ The people who have the power to set the culture and set the tone.

It it really goes a long way, the choices that they make. That's amazing. That's powerful. Thanks for joining me, Laura.

Thanks, Goan. Thank you, Laura. There's something I keep on coming back to from this conversation with Laura. Sometimes a thing that needs to change isn't failing.

Sometimes it's still working. People may still admire it and even actually envy you for it. You may be still really good at it, and it still may pay you well and give you an identity that makes you feel like it makes sense to everybody else. And as you begin to notice that doesn't feel the same anymore, you can still begin to feel like it's not you anymore.

Laura talked about the shift from anticipation to dread. The phone call she once couldn't wait to receive became the phone call. She didn't even want to answer. And I think there's something useful in simply noticing where that might be happening in our own lives.

Not because we need to make some kind of dramatic decision tomorrow. You don't. Laura remind us that meaningful change is usually a hundred of smaller little decisions made in a sequence. And maybe the first decision is simply being willing to hear what you already know.

Because when the I'll old identity still works, it can be very tempting to keep wearing it. The title still fits on a business card, the role still makes sense, and people around you still depend upon that version of you. And somewhere underneath all of that, you may begin to recognize that the question itself has changed. It may be less about what am I going to do next?

And it might be more about why does the next thing matter to me? And that's Laura's napkin. It's less about what you do and more about why you do it. And maybe you don't have to know exactly where that question leads yet.

You can just let yourself notice what gives you energy right now. What feels worth your time now? What part of you has been getting quieter while you've been succeeding? And when you begin to pay attention to those things, you may find that the next chapter has already been leaving you clues.

So You may not know what you need to do yet. So until next time, keep thinking big, starting small, and understanding that small things, little things that can fit on a napkin can be big enough to change your world. I believe in you. Make it a great day.